ok well my mother makes me go to church about twice a month. i just go cuz it means alot to her and i would feel bad if she went alone. but anyways when i was in church the gospel was about when moses came down from the mountain with the 10 commandments, and everyone was partying and making god mad. well god was about to kill everyone down at the bottem of the mountain who was worshiping the calf. but moses talked him out of it. so since moses talked god out of something. that means that moses a mear mortal either sweet talked god or that god made a mistake, out of anger. and moses helpped god relise that the people didn't deserve to be killed. so to me this is proof that the all powerful god is not perfect.

Or scripture is imperfect, take your pick son.

I choose scripture.

and why believe perfectly in an imperfect testimony? DOUBT, ANALYZE, and QUESTION EVERYTHING IN THE BIBLE!!! it's flawed!

and then do that with everything in life until the day you die.

quote:Originally posted by firefly:

ok well my mother makes me go to church about twice a month. i just go cuz it means alot to her and i would feel bad if she went alone. but anyways when i was in church the gospel was about when moses came down from the mountain with the 10 commandments, and everyone was partying and making god mad. well god was about to kill everyone down at the bottem of the mountain who was worshiping the calf. but moses talked him out of it. so since moses talked god out of something. that means that moses a mear mortal either sweet talked god or that god made a mistake, out of anger. and moses helpped god relise that the people didn't deserve to be killed. so to me this is proof that the all powerful god is not perfect.



Did God know that Moses was going try to change His mind? He is omnicient. If He is all knowing, then Moses did not really talk God out of it.

That wasn't gospel for one thing, gospel is the first four books of the new testament, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. That probably would be considered the Old Testament Reading.

Anyway moses did not change Gods mind. Many people died after God had them melt down the golden calf mix it with water and drink it. Besides God had made a promise that they (the chosen people, the Israelites) would see the promised land. This promise went all the way back to Abraham. And God does not break his promises.

By the way what denomination does your mother belong to.

(Catholic, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Baptist, Non-denominational, etc)

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



Did God know that Moses was going try to change His mind? He is omnicient. If He is all knowing, then Moses did not really talk God out of it.

If God was omnicient why did he test JOB? Seems like a horible sadistic thing to do if there is nothing to be learned.

He made an example for everyone else to follow....

quote:Originally posted by MasterPython:

If God was omnicient why did he test JOB? Seems like a horible sadistic thing to do if there is nothing to be learned.

If God is omnicient, He doesnt need to test anyone, including Job, for His own purpose of knowing what we would do. He tests us to teach us, to teach others, to strengthen us. When you anneal metal, you heat it and then cool it. Whis strengthens it..Tempers it.



But in Job's case, God wasnt (at first glance) testing Job. It was Lucifer who was trying to show God that people trust God only because of the prosperity that God gives them.

God allowed Lucifer to 'test' Job because He knew that Job would not let Him down. God was the one to say, "Have you concidered My servant, Job". God also knew what Satan was up to.. God asked Satan where he has been and Satan replied that he was going 'to and fro, about the earth'. That is when God asked him if he had considered consider Job. Satan must have known what God meant, because that is when he presented this disagreement with God.

As far as "sadistic...if there is nothing to be learned", I am surprised that you asked this in this way, MasterPython, because i think i remember you saying something to the effect that there is always something to be learned in everything.

quote:Originally posted by mndbender:

That wasn't gospel for one thing, gospel is the first four books of the new testament, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. That probably would be considered the Old Testament Reading.

Anyway moses did not change Gods mind. Many people died after God had them melt down the golden calf mix it with water and drink it. Besides God had made a promise that they (the chosen people, the Israelites) would see the promised land. This promise went all the way back to Abraham. And God does not break his promises.

By the way what denomination does your mother belong to.

(Catholic, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Baptist, Non-denominational, etc)

my mom is catholic

quote:Originally posted by firefly:

my mom is catholic

That explains everything.

Oh, and there are plenty of instances when people talk god out doing stuff in the bible. Take Abraham, and Lot, or one of them, I can't remember.

QUOTE Originally posted by KidKelko:

Oh, and there are plenty of instances when people talk god out doing stuff in the bible. Take Abraham, and Lot, or one of them, I can't remember./QUOTE

refer to this..."Did God know that Moses was going try to change His mind? He is omnicient. If He is all knowing, then Moses did not really talk God out of it."

This applies to Abraham, Lot, etc. They did not actually "talk" God out of it.

When i have alittle more time, i'll try to show this. Gotta go to work.

God Bless you

If God is all knowing, then there can be no such ting as free will. because God would know ahead of time what actions we would take.

And how does that take away your choice in the matter?

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

And how does that take away your choice in the matter?

Because if God allready knew what you would choose, then there isn't a choice, now is there? Say God knew I was going to make choice A. If I then went, and made choice B, then an all-knowing God would have known that I would make choice B. Hence, God would have known, since the beginning of time what that choice would be. It's kinda like the pre-destination paradox that completely reduces Calvinism to bullshit.

Firefly, I think what God does and what God knows are two different things. The parable seemed like it's more of a testament to Moses's concern for the people for whom the Ten Commandments were designed, not "God changed his mind! He's not an all-knowing God anymore!"

Yet another example of...

you guessed it: ANOTHER CHRISTIAN PARADOX!

quote:Originally posted by SurahAhriman:

If God is all knowing, then there can be no such thing as free will, because God would know ahead of time what actions we would take.

Also, how can a person make free choices, if they do not know what God knows?

I might make completely different choices knowing all the alternatives. God must really love blind-risk takers.

quote:Originally posted by WolfinSheepsClothing:

Also, how can a person make free choices, if they do not know what God knows?

I might make completely different choices knowing all the alternatives. God must really love blind-risk takers.

You guys are reaching here...lol

Im sorry if i sound condescending, but freewill is mainly about God giving you the ability to choose God Love or God's damnation.

Sure, there is freewill to choose between A and B, or to change your mind and choose 745. But ultimately, all of your choices boil down to choosing God or not.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

You guys are reaching here...lol

Im sorry if i sound condescending, but freewill is mainly about God giving you the ability to choose God Love or God's damnation.

Sure, there is freewill to choose between A and B, or to change your mind and choose 745. But ultimately, all of your choices boil down to choosing God or not.



As SurahAhriman said, you cannot have free will if god already knows what you're going to do. If your choices are restrained to what god knows you're going to do, then that is not free will.

Either there is no free will, or if you can change your decisions and therefore what an omniscient god knew, then that god isn't omniscient. Which is it?

If you're unaware of your destiny, what difference does it make? It's ultimately inconsequential whether or not God determines it, or already knows how the circumstances will end. The fact that you don't know doesn't mean God doesn't know.

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

If you're unaware of your destiny, what difference does it make? It's ultimately inconsequential whether or not God determines it, or already knows how the circumstances will end. The fact that you don't know doesn't mean God doesn't know.

Whether my life is predetermined or not, I couldn't care less. It seems indefinite to me, and that's what matters.

I'm merely pointing out a flaw in his argument, and consequentially in Christianity (or any other religion that holds free will and omniscience as possible).

[QUOTE]Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

QUOTE Originally posted by KidKelko:

[

removed-- reposted

[This message has been edited by xtreem5150ahm (edited 09-28-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

As SurahAhriman said, you cannot have free will if god already knows what you're going to do. If your choices are restrained to what god knows you're going to do, then that is not free will.

Either there is no free will, or if you can change your decisions and therefore what an omniscient god knew, then that god isn't omniscient. Which is it?



You are wrong, Rust.

I can see what my step-kids are going to do (at times), because i've been there. But often, i dont say anything to stop them, so they learn.



They have the choice to do it, even though i see it coming. So they have choice, and i have knowledge (from making the same mistake).

Their choice doesnt restrict my knowledge, and my knowledge only resticts their choice when i share some insight, thus giving them more choices.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

As SurahAhriman said, you cannot have free will if god already knows what you're going to do. If your choices are restrained to what god knows you're going to do, then that is not free will.

Either there is no free will, or if you can change your decisions and therefore what an omniscient god knew, then that god isn't omniscient. Which is it?

How can The Omnicient God be restrained in what He knows?

That's alright, no need to answer. You are so skilled at arguing, and could convince me that an orange is really blue.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



You are wrong, Rust.

I can see what my step-kids are going to do (at times), because i've been there. But often, i dont say anything to stop them, so they learn.



They have the choice to do it, even though i see it coming. So they have choice, and i have knowledge (from making the same mistake).

Their choice doesnt restrict my knowledge, and my knowledge only resticts their choice when i share some insight, thus giving them more choices.

No. You don't know what they are going to do. You aniticipate it. There's a huge difference.

You may narrow down their choices to one which seems to be the logical choices, and therefore a higher chance of them choosing that one, but you cannot possibly know what they were going to do. If you knew, they would have no free will.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

No. You don't know what they are going to do. You aniticipate it. There's a huge difference.

You may narrow down their choices to one which seems to be the logical choices, and therefore a higher chance of them choosing that one, but you cannot possibly know what they were going to do. If you knew, they would have no free will.



you did a good job on pointing out the difference between knowing and anticipating.

you did a poor job of showing that it stops their ability of free choice.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

How can The Omnicient God be restrained in what He knows?

I said 'what YOU can do' would be restrained, not 'what a god can know'.

quote:

That's alright, no need to answer. You are so skilled at arguing, and could convince me that an orange is really blue.

No need to get hostile. Just answer the argument.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



you did a good job on pointing out the difference between knowing and anticipating.

you did a poor job of showing that it stops their ability of free choice.

I thought it was obvious.

Knowing exactly what they are going to do, means that there is no other thing they can do. Their choice is limited, because if they were to make another choice, then that would mean that you didn't know what they were going to do!

Therefore the only two possible answers:

Either there is no free will, or there is no omniscient god.



[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 09-28-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Rust:



I said 'what YOU can do' would be restrained, not 'what a god can know'.

quote:

That's alright, no need to answer. You are so skilled at arguing, and could convince me that an orange is really blue.

No need to get hostile. Just answer the argument.

you said the restraining factor was determined by what (an omnicient) God knows... this doesnt restrain choice, it makes it unlimited.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

you said the restraining factor was determined by what (an omnicient) God knows... this doesnt restrain choice, it makes it unlimited.

By "knows" I mean, "knows of what your choice is going to be".

If he knows you're going to choose A, then your choice is restrained to choose A and only A. If you choose B, then he didn't know you were going to choose A. Hence, not omniscient.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

By "knows" I mean, "knows of what your choice is going to be".

If he knows you're going to choose A, then your choice is restrained to choose A and only A. If you choose B, then he didn't know you were going to choose A. Hence, not omniscient.



See, you are better at arguing. that doesnt mean you're correct. just means you better at arguing.

This was what i meant about the orange, wasnt being hostile.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



See, you are better at arguing. that doesnt mean you're correct. just means you better at arguing.



Then what does mean I'm correct?

Until someone refutes the argument, the only logical course of action is to take it as true. Especially when it has endured the course of numerous debates.

Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

QUOTE Originally posted by KidKelko:

Oh, and there are plenty of instances when people talk god out doing stuff in the bible. Take Abraham, and Lot, or one of them, I can't remember./QUOTE

When i have alittle more time, i'll try to show this. Gotta go to work.

God Bless you

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

I'll try to keep this short.

The passage that is being refered to is Exodus 32:7-14 (actually the whole chapter and then some) I'll use the modern KJV, if you want to follow along w/your own bible.

Let's refer to verse 1 first. i've bolded some key words that usually get overlooked as non-important.

Ex 32:1 Now when the people saw that Moses delayed coming down from the mountain, the people gathered together to Aaron, and said to him, "Come, make us gods that shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man who brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we do not know what has become of him."

OK. now for our focus. Again, bolded for emphasis.

Ex 32:7 And the Lord said to Moses, "Go, get down! For your people whom you brought out of the land of Egypt have corrupted themselves.

Ex 32:8 "They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them. They have made themselves a molded calf, and worshiped it and sacrificed to it, and said, 'This is your god, O Israel, that brought you out of the land of Egypt!' "

Ex 32:9 And the Lord said to Moses, "I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people!

Ex 32:10 "Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation."

Ex 32:11 Then Moses pleaded with the Lord his God, and said: "Lord, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand?

Ex 32:12 "Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, 'He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth'? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and relent from this harm to Your people.

Ex 32:13 "Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, 'I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.' "

Ex 32:14 So the Lord relented from the harm which He said He would do to His people.

Now first of all, these are the people that God,Himself, has called "My People".

But now, the Israelites are giving the glory of getting out of Egypt, to Moses (vs1)

Then we see that God is "using" their words and "disowning them", and also "giving" the glory to Moses. This is a "test", with the added bonus of making a great people from Moses.

i would assume that Moses, being human, probably tossed this idea around in his mind (that he,moses, brought the people out). Part of the "test" was to show Moses to be humble, even in his own mind.

Moses understood, and changed the wording back to "YOUR people, that YOU delivered"

In verse 14, God relented from harming HIS people. And showing that He did not disown them.

So, Moses did NOT change God's Mind. God is in control.



[This message has been edited by xtreem5150ahm (edited 09-28-2004).]

Huh?

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Huh?



God gave Moses a choice. God knew.

Let's back up for a moment. Earlier, i said that free will is overplayed/overestimated. It is really about (in my opinion) choosing God or not choosing Him.

And i think that the problem with the freewill vs. all-knowing arguement is flawed because people created the concept of free will (and still cant agree on what it is and what it entails, or even when it occurs) to help them understand God's word (actually, it is more than this--greek philosophy comes into play).

As far as God's nature (all knowing, all powerfull, all present), this too is (humans) trying to quantify something that is beyond human understanding. The only things that we know about God, is what He has said about Himself in His Word (and even that, we have trouble with).

Rust, I am not trying to give you fuel for your "mental masterbation" sessions, and i am embarassed that i allowed myself to fall into it again. I am only stating what i know in my heart and truely believe.

So, in short, You asked whether (i) would be willing to discard free will or omnicients.

Because all is God's will, if pressed, i would have to throwout freewill. But, if God is all powerful, i would say that it is possible for Him to have freewill seperate from His nature.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

God gave Moses a choice. God knew.

Yes... in a BOOK. That's not evidence, let alone proof, of a scenario were an omniscient being existed, and at at the same time so did free will.

Moreover, that still doesn't show free will, because, even if we take what passage as true, you cannot possibly know if Moses really had a choice or not.



quote:

Let's back up for a moment. Earlier, i said that free will is overplayed/overestimated. It is really about (in my opinion) choosing God or not choosing Him.

No offense, but that doesn't refute the argument anyway. You wouldn't even have that choice if there was omniscience!

quote:

And i think that the problem with the freewill vs. all-knowing arguement is flawed because people created the concept of free will (and still cant agree on what it is and what it entails, or even when it occurs) to help them understand God's word (actually, it is more than this--greek philosophy comes into play).

Whether people have decided on what exactly free will entails is irrelevant, as I dare you to find a scenario in where an omniscient being can exist, and you can have choice in a decision. ANY decision.

quote:

As far as God's nature (all knowing, all powerfull, all present), this too is (humans) trying to quantify something that is beyond human understanding. The only things that we know about God, is what He has said about Himself in His Word (and even that, we have trouble with).

Beyond human understanding? I can understand each of those concepts perfectly. That is simply not a problem.

quote:

Rust, I am not trying to give you fuel for your "mental masterbation" sessions, and i am embarassed that i allowed myself to fall into it again. I am only stating what i know in my heart and truely believe.

By "mental masturbation" I mean "entertainment" or "stimulation". You do know this right?

I don't see what's wrong with me, or you fomenting mental stimulation.



quote:

So, in short, You asked whether (i) would be willing to discard free will or omnicients.

Because all is God's will, if pressed, i would have to throwout freewill. But, if God is all powerful, i would say that it is possible for Him to have freewill seperate from His nature.

So if there is no free will, then it would mean god wants me to sin. In essence, refuting Christianity, or at the very least making it worthless.

Digital,

Could you please share your thoughts/input on this Christian paradox?

How can you explain the apparent paradox of there supposedly being an omniscient being, and at the same time, also 'free will'?

"<Blank>'s Flaws" is the hot topic now, so I didn't want this to be lost.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Then what does mean I'm correct?

Until someone refutes the argument, the only logical course of action is to take it as true. Especially when it has endured the course of numerous debates.

What he is saying is that he does not have the capacity to argue, using your kind of logic, which will be the only way to prove you wrong, since you will accept no other approach.

Give the guy a break...he KNOWS you are wrong (to himself), but doesn't quite know how to debate you, yet.

He is right...you are a skilled debater.

But that doesn't make you right.

Sometimes, it makes you more petty.

Sometimes, it makes you more manipulative.

Sometimes, it shows you have a better memory than others.

Sometimes it does nothing but show how pig-headed and stubborn you can be.

Take it however you want...you're good at it.

But he is right...just because what you say cannot be unproven, or adequately refuted, doesn't mean you are right.

It means that no one else is of your class, or calibre when it comes to the art of debate.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Digital,

Could you please share your thoughts/input on this Christian paradox?

How can you explain the apparent paradox of there supposedly being an omniscient being, and at the same time, also 'free will'?

"<Blank>'s Flaws" is the hot topic now, so I didn't want this to be lost.

Yes, I will do my best...though this is one of those "hard" areas for me, as well.

The best way to put it is that NOTHING is impossible for God.

If He says that He is omniscient, yet chose for us to have free will, though He knows already what we will do from the minute we are conceived until the minute we *poof* into thin air, then I must accept that this is possible, since I believe He exists, and is the true living God.

No, that is NOT my explanation.

That is my basic "brief synopsis".

I HAVE to get some sleep...and I have promised SO many people that I would reply to them, and yet haven't. I would hate to promise another, but alas...I will.

I will get to this when I can.

How's that ? http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:



Give the guy a break...he KNOWS you are wrong (to himself), but doesn't quite know how to debate you, yet.

He "knowing" doesn't mean he's correct either. If anything means someone is correct, it's a successful argument. That's the only quantifiable or empirical thing. Not what he or I "know" and not what he or I "believe". It's what we can successfully argue, nothing else.

If you were reading much of the surrounding text, you'll also notice another rather odd thing. The only time a set of laws is mentioned in the bible and called "The 10 commandments," is when Moses first goes onto the mountain to have his little meeting with god. God lists them out and the commandments are not the commandments we list today as the 10 commandments. After that first set is broken, and Moses goes back into the mountain, he comes back and tells the people a set of rules, although this new set is never called the 10 commandments and is much different than the earlier set.

"Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics- even if you win you're still a retard" -Anon

Quetion:

A person molested repeatedly some 30 years ago on camps run by Christian Brothers (The people whom his parents trusted to teach him wrong from right) is now a convert to Buddhism... For a person acting on behalf of God would not have acted in that regard... (Homosexuality & Molestation & Rape being just 3 crimes commited)

The Priest confesses to his crime, repents and is forgiven by God, for God forgives all... Ultimately secures a place in heaven...

The boy: will he go to Hell for worshippng other Gods? or is there a clause in this rule allowing for such situations?

Obviously, God been all Knowing knew this would happen... Does God love the Priest more knowing he would go to heaven and the boy would go to hell?

[This message has been edited by Axiom (edited 10-14-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Axiom:

Quetion:

A person molested repeatedly some 30 years ago on camps run by Christian Brothers (The people whom his parents trusted to teach him wrong from right) is now a convert to Buddhism... For a person acting on behalf of God would not have acted in that regard... (Homosexuality & Molestation & Rape being just 3 crimes commited)

The Priest confesses to his crime, repents and is forgiven by God, for God forgives all... Ultimately secures a place in heaven...

The boy: will he go to Hell for worshippng other Gods? or is there a clause in this rule allowing for such situations?

Obviously, God been all Knowing knew this would happen... Does God love the Priest more knowing he would go to heaven and the boy would go to hell?

[This message has been edited by Axiom (edited 10-14-2004).]



This is actually the best question i have seen in this forum.

I can only make a guess about it, since i'm not God.

I dont recall any "clause", but God is Just, so He might have some leniency in a case like yours. But, I am compelled to remember Jesus' words..."I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

Please keep in mind, this is only a guess, MY GUESS.

I asked a old religious studies teacher of mine some time ago this question... He said that all people will be judged on what they know and how they've lived their lives...

He said that Churches are not mentioned in the bible, and the rituals of the different denominations are not descibed either. The judgement is not on attendance or weekend practices, but of Character and Virtue...

I thank you for your reply, its a complex situation...

[This message has been edited by Axiom (edited 10-16-2004).]

QUOTE Originally posted by Axiom:

I asked a old religious studies teacher of mine some time ago this question... He said that all people will be judged on what they know and how they've lived their lives... /QUOTE

. Well, being a religious teacher, he must have realized that Christianity teaches that we will be judged as righteous or unrighteous, not by our knowledge and how we lived our life, but by whether we have accepted the Messiah and His paying our penalty of sin for us.

. Unless he pointed that out to you (at the very least, academically), he was very poor in the knowledge of what he taught, since that is one of the basic agreements and understandings of Christianity

He said that Churches are not mentioned in the bible, and the rituals of the different denominations are not descibed either.

. Again, he failed. The Bible does mention churches in a few places, Revelations is the first to come to my mind.

. As far as rituals go, they are described in the OT (Exodus and Leviticus are the most prevalent).



The judgement is not on attendance or weekend practices, but of Character and Virtue...

. He is right about attendance, but character and virtue would be more along the lines of after one is accepted into Heaven. (this would be the crowns that will be rewarded to us, but i'm alittle lacking in this area, so i can not expound on it,,,Digital (or anyother Christian), can you give us some insight on this?

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

. Again, he failed. The Bible does mention churches in a few places, Revelations is the first to come to my mind.

. As far as rituals go, they are described in the OT (Exodus and Leviticus are the most prevalent).

I did some research, looking up the keyword "Church" in the bible... It is never mentioned by God to build a church... Or how a church should look, its position, or its practice... It is mentioned 112 mostly as "The Church", but is solely man's creation. And mostly in the context of what "The Church" would do to men who dis-honoured it...

I was paraphrasing when I said it is never mentioned. I meant to say, never mentioned by God. Mathew mentioned he'd build one, but being always present, God would have no need for a sole place of worship... As thoughtful as it is of men...

My teacher translated the bible symbolically, as he also was a very good scientist who took me for that class as well....

quote:Originally posted by Axiom:

I did some research, looking up the keyword "Church" in the bible... It is never mentioned by God to build a church...

King David vowed to God that he would build a temple in His honor. God told him no, because his (David's) hands had blood on them. God also said something along the lines of what you said, "God would have no need for a sole place of worship...". But He did allow David's son Solomon to build a temple.



quote:Or how a church should look, its position, or its practice...

God did tell Moses how He wanted the Temple built... this temple was a tent, as the Israelites would be on walk about for awhile (40 years). This directive also told the position that the tent should face and how the tribes should camp around it. God also went on to say how the priest should dress, act, what they could eat... and a whole ton of other stuff.

In Timothy, God says that all scripture is God inspired. So the rituals for the church are actually given by God.

quote:It is mentioned 112 mostly as "The Church", but is solely man's creation. And mostly in the context of what "The Church" would do to men who dis-honoured it...

Most of the time, in the NT, the term "The Church" is used as meaning the "body of believers" which is the "bride of the Christ". Depending on the context of the text, the meaning is for either the present "body of believers" or after the New Heaven and New Earth "bride of Christ" however, this answer that i just gave only scratches the surface. There are whole chapters of books that discuss this issue.

quote:I was paraphrasing when I said it is never mentioned. I meant to say, never mentioned by God. Mathew mentioned he'd build one, but being always present, God would have no need for a sole place of worship... As thoughtful as it is of men...

i hope this was answered good enough. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Do you mind leaving references? I believe you, but I'd like to read it myself...

quote:Originally posted by Axiom:

Do you mind leaving references?

King David vowed to God that he would build a temple in His honor. God told him no, because his (David's) hands had blood on them. God also said something along the lines of what you said, "God would have no need for a sole place of worship...". But He did allow David's son Solomon to build a temple.

2 Samuel chapter 7

1 Chronicles 22

there is at least one more passage that fills in the blanks between these two, but i cant remember enough of it to find it.. i hope this is sufficient, atleast for now.



quote:Or how a church should look, its position, or its practice...

God did tell Moses how He wanted the Temple built... this temple was a tent, as the Israelites would be on walk about for awhile (40 years). This directive also told the position that the tent should face and how the tribes should camp around it. God also went on to say how the priest should dress, act, what they could eat... and a whole ton of other stuff.

Exodus 25 to Exodus 31:11

Basically, if you read all of Exodus and Leviticus, you will have a pretty good, basic understanding of the "church" (tabernacle), the laws and ceremonies of the priests (Levites), and the laws and ceremonies for the people. And if you read all this, dont do it when you are tired...in my opinion it is almost as dry as reading the Begats... they have their purpose but not overly entertaining read...lotsa coffe and lotsa breaks.

In Timothy, God says that all scripture is God inspired. So the rituals for the church are actually given by God.

2 Timothy 3:16

quote:It is mentioned 112 mostly as "The Church", but is solely man's creation. And mostly in the context of what "The Church" would do to men who dis-honoured it...

Most of the time, in the NT, the term "The Church" is used as meaning the "body of believers" which is the "bride of the Christ". Depending on the context of the text, the meaning is for either the present "body of believers" or after the New Heaven and New Earth "bride of Christ" however, this answer that i just gave only scratches the surface. There are whole chapters of books that discuss this issue.

i'm going to leave this one be for right now, it is getting late, and i need to do some research for refuting those (supposed) contridictions in the Bible, which i've already taken too long in keeping my word to answer (when i've had the time, i have procrastinated)... remind me to get back to this, please.