I lost my faith after this one...

If god is perfect, then why does he not allow anyone to come from hell to heaven?

A perfect god would not only find a way to convince EVERYONE of the existance of god while allowing all people to keep their free will, but he would also allow those who are genuinly sorry for their sins in life and their lack of faith in god to escape hell and come join him in his heavenly kingdom.



BTW a friend of mine helped me to come to this conclusion.

quote:Originally posted by blututh1.0:

If god is perfect, then why does he not allow anyone to come from hell to heaven?



In Islam, Allah does release prisoners of the Hellfire and takes them to Heaven, but they have an X marked into their heads to show they were once sinners. But that doesn't affect them in any way. They can still live it up with virgins and get pissed. I also read that in every day of Ramadan (special Muslim holiday month) that Allah releases 1000 people from Hell.

So he only releases them on Ramadan?

Even then, he is more merciful than any other god I know of.

The problem is that God is perfect. And he cannot be in the sight of imperfection. If you have unresolved sin, then you cannot be in God's presence. And "being sorry" isn't what forgives sin. Blood sacrifice is what takes the place of our sin. Jesus' death is the blood sacrifice that takes the place of all our sin.

Why do you think perfection entails accepting everyone?

You are simply placing your own perspective of perfection onto a being that is impercievable.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

The problem is that God is perfect.

If God was perfect he wouldn't have problems.

Evidently this all comes down to the ignorance in that some people resort to a Catch-22 like "god is perfect and you are not so your opinion doesn't matter because you cannot percieve perfection."

THREAD CLOSED

well you aren't perfect are you?

And I didn't say that you are wrong becuase you are imperfect. I said you can't personify God because he is beyond human conception. Think about the origins of everything, size of the universe, etc. Just try to wrap your head around that. God is even beyond that stuff.

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

well you aren't perfect are you?

And I didn't say that you are wrong becuase you are imperfect. I said you can't personify God because he is beyond human conception. Think about the origins of everything, size of the universe, etc. Just try to wrap your head around that. God is even beyond that stuff.

Sounds like Taoism to me, and that is good, but who is to say what is good or bad.God I love Taoism.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

The problem is that God is perfect. And he cannot be in the sight of imperfection.

An omnipotent being must be able to "be in sight of imperfection". If he cannot, then he is not omnipotent.

If he chooses not to be, then that doesn't make him very nice, does it? Like the creator of this thread said, you would think an omnipotent and omniscient being would find a way... [he actually must be able to find a way. He must also already know what it would be like to be in our presence, and not be, which would make our creation completely pointless... but that's for another thread...]

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

An omnipotent being must be able to "be in sight of imperfection". If he cannot, then he is not omnipotent.



I cannot believe this.... i actually agree with something that Rust said.

Would the real Rust, please stand up...

God can see sin, but he cannot be in the presence of sin.

QUOTE Originally posted by blututh1.0:

I lost my faith after this one...

If god is perfect, then why does he not allow anyone to come from hell to heaven?

BTW a friend of mine helped me to come to this conclusion.[/QUOTE]

YOU LOST YOUR FAITH OVER THIS!!! if that is true, then you DID NOT have faith in the first place.

God's perfection is not in question. Your (and our) ignorance of God and His Divine Will and His Divine Plan, is what is imperfect

He already did let one come from Hell to Heaven. Jesus went to Hell after He was crucified, to be tormented for our sins. then He rose from the dead and ascended to Heaven.

He also let Lucifer come to Heaven. Read Job.

A perfect god would not only find a way to convince EVERYONE of the existance of god while allowing all people to keep their free will, but he would also allow those who are genuinly sorry for their sins in life and their lack of faith in god to escape hell and come join him in his heavenly kingdom.

<<sarcasm>> Maybe you should ask God to let you be in charge for a day or two, 'Bruce al-mite-y' (this is spelled the way that i intend it), because you seem to know better.<</sarcasm>>

You said that your faith was lost over this thing that your friend helped with. If you HAD faith, i doubt if it was lost. If you HAVE faith, then this is just a small stumbling block. And when you grow to understand, then so will your faith.

MAY GOD BLESS YOU AND KEEP YOU http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

God can see sin, but he cannot be in the presence of sin.

Sorry Bishop, but God can be where ever He wants to be.

If you are correct, then He could not have had that conversation with Adam and Eve. Or wrestle with Jacob. Or allow His Son (Who is God) to come to us, for us.

And this is the biggie.. If God can not be in the presence of sin, how would it be possible for the Holy Spirit to convert a non-believer?

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

God can see sin, but he cannot be in the presence of sin.

Then god isn't omnipotent.

Either he can be in the presence of sin and therefore you are wrong, or he can't and he isn't omnipotent. Which is it?

quote:Originally posted by blututh1.0:

So he only releases them on Ramadan?

Even then, he is more merciful than any other god I know of.

Also, for every good deed you do, Allah rewards you ten 'points'. For every bad deed you do, He only removes one 'point'. That is the measure of Allah's mercy.

quote:Originally posted by Loc Dogg:

In Islam, Allah does release prisoners of the Hellfire and takes them to Heaven, but they have an X marked into their heads to show they were once sinners. But that doesn't affect them in any way. They can still live it up with virgins and get pissed. I also read that in every day of Ramadan (special Muslim holiday month) that Allah releases 1000 people from Hell.



I've got to get a henna done like that next time I go to Egypt....wait no, don't want to be lynched just yet, bad idea.

god is only an extension of our fears and the inconsisentcies in our scientific community. because of the fact the we can not truely experience the world around us we account for the difference by pointing upwards and saying that its god when it is really just the weakness in our selves. a thimble full of reality holds more information than a galaxy full of human brains could ever come to comprehend. you cling to the pathetic fable of a divine power and are too busy to realize that you do not need god. if the world were to put down their guns and bibles and pick up textbooks and wrenches we would have a better world

Rust then i guess he isn't omnipotent in the Webster's version of the word.

This is what happens when we let a BOOK define what God is, rather than our hearts. If he is beyond human conception, as stated by aTribeCalledSean, then he could not have possibly been accurately portrayed, only hinted at and talked around. Any arguement that is self-referential is inherently invalid.

God cannot be confined to our limited "understanding". No book will conveniently describe for us God's attributes. Until we die, it's all just speculation.

Atomsphere, this discussion is on a plane your devotion to scientology is too ignorant to comprehend, and I'd appreciate it if you'd help me realize my dream of reading a post concerning religion without an inane, all-rejecting, Darwin-worshipping response discussing, with a Pee Wee Herman-like frantic enthusiasm, the futility of religious consciousness.

I totally respect your feelings and opinions concerning god, but a forum is a place for people to reveal their opinions. I am only telling you that these are my feelings. I became atheist when I was twelve and I wish I could beleive in god but nothing proves his existence and nothing disproves it. we can never come to comprehend any thing concerning god because our language is imperfect and our minds weak. we can never truely know anything. this brings us back to my point. It is my sincere opinion that he is not there and I do not need him in my life. my 2 cents are worth the same as yours so i can say what I feel like in the forum and you can say what you like. just respect that.

In Judaism everyone goes to "hell" to be cleansed of their sins for a maximum of 12 months. Then everyone goes to heaven.

Talking Points (I hate O'Reilly)

1. Judaism and Islam seem to be much more appealing, and, if god is truly perfect, more likely to be reality than Christianity.

2. I believe that... I don't know yet. Thats why I posted this topic, to incite controversy.

3. The belief that a god/gods were created to explain things we haven't figured out yet carries a lot of historical weight. For example, the Roman Catholic Church accepted, only in the last 100 years, that the Sun is the center of the solar system.

But, it doesn't prove or disprove the existance or nonexistance of a/the/some god/gods.

4. Thank you all for your opinions and what you accept or do not accept as being true or false.

5. Please continue this thread as it is one of the most interesting ones I have ever seen/created.

blututh1.0

Islam if i'm not mistaken accepts Judaism and Christianity as factually correct, but they believe Jesus to be just another "prophet" while Mohammed is the last and most important prophet.

^^^ funny thing about that.

Muslim theos states that all "prophets" speak only truth. Jesus is considered a prophet, yet his speach and actions differ and defy islam very much. So who is speaking the truth eh?

The problem with your 'search,' such as it may be (I don't know what your spiritual development has been like), is that you're looking for logical, intellectual arguments to justify the existence or non-existence of God, when in reality, logic doesn't come into play concerning religion, but experience.

Until you have that all-encompassing experience, you will not understand the nature of the gods. It is something that is beyond understanding, but exclusive to truly knowing.

quote:Originally posted by Aphelion Corona:

In Judaism everyone goes to "hell" to be cleansed of their sins for a maximum of 12 months. Then everyone goes to heaven.



That's a new one on me.