The majority of atheists I know can't imagine the thinking of believers. I can't. I don't know how people could possibly think that's what's going on. I don't know how anyone could believe totally baseless shit about the divine nature of everything just because. And the believers I know don't understand the atheists. How could people think that the universe came from nothing? How could people not believe in the thing that created them? That caused them to be? It's the same as Bush supporters and Bush haters. Neither can relate at all to what the other is talking about. They just see the other side as really really stupid. So my question to you all is do you understand the other side? If you think about hard enough, can you fathom what those other people are thinking about?

People won't understand each other if they are:

1. dumb

2. ignorant

3. close minded

4. all of the above

quote:Originally posted by GlitterPunk112358:

The majority of atheists I know can't imagine the thinking of believers. I can't. I don't know how people could possibly think that's what's going on. I don't know how anyone could believe totally baseless shit about the divine nature of everything just because. And the believers I know don't understand the atheists. How could people think that the universe came from nothing? How could people not believe in the thing that created them? That caused them to be? It's the same as Bush supporters and Bush haters. Neither can relate at all to what the other is talking about. They just see the other side as really really stupid. So my question to you all is do you understand the other side? If you think about hard enough, can you fathom what those other people are thinking about?



I do understand many of the atheists' point of view. In fact, they generally have the "best" arguements.

What i cannot understand is an agnostic POV. Or even someone that "thinks there is a God" "somewhere out there".



To me, this is LUKEWARM.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



I do understand many of the atheists' point of view. In fact, they generally have the "best" arguements.

What i cannot understand is an agnostic POV. Or even someone that "thinks there is a God" "somewhere out there".



To me, this is LUKEWARM.

Yeah. Anyone who thinks "there might be a god, out there somewhere", is mostly just dodging the question, probably because they've never put enough thought into it. And agnostics who don't know, but don't care, are actually atheist.

I agree that Agnostism is sort of taking the easy way out, although i respect their willingness to admit ignorance.

And truthfully, i think i do understand the Atheist viewpoint, hell i even sympathize with it sometimes.

For me, it would be a lot easier to just say there isn't a god and do whatever the hell i wanted to do. But that's not how i live, nor would i feel comfortable living that way.

And to be extremely blunt, I can't imagine, based on your previous posts, that you have really weighed the logical implications of either spritual outcome, so it makes me both laugh and cry when people with simliar views as you start talking about "baseless shit".

theBishop

quote:



For me, it would be a lot easier to just say there isn't a god and do whatever the hell i wanted to do. But that's not how i live, nor would i feel comfortable living that way.



Atheism is not about "doing whatever you want to do" just because you don't believe in God. I'm sick of hearing the "atheists don't have any morals" stereotype. If the belief in a God is the only thing stopping some people from doing "whatever they want to do", they should reconsider their beliefs.

Also, (to original poster), why is it so hard to to understand the mind of the believer? Religion has been a source of comfort since man invented it (that's right, I said invented it). Remember a time when you felt comforted, you felt safe, you felt that everything would be OK? That is the mind of a believer.

I wasn't saying Atheists have no morals although i can understand why you took it that way. However, as an Atheist, is there something legal you want to do, but don't because you feel it is morally wrong?

I'm more talking about who is in authority. For me, God is in authority. For you, most likely you are in authority.

Right now, in washington, the biggest polluters in our country are being given the oppurtunity to basically write their own environmental regulations. Do you think they are holding themselves to standards higher or lower than the regulations in place before they were in authority? The question is rhetorical.

theBishop

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

Right now, in washington, the biggest polluters in our country are being given the oppurtunity to basically write their own environmental regulations.



What sickens me more, is that they have been allowed to do this, by the administration of a president who is "Christian".

don't remind me.

Its ok, please, continue to bag my belife.

And yes i do admit i am ignorant in wether or not god exists for you cant prove it. And i do belive there is something there. But it is definatley not the Christian god.

This is actualy quite funny. The one time the two sides agree on something its bagging Agnosics.

[This message has been edited by Agnostic (edited 10-03-2004).]

No dude, i'm not bagging Agnostics. Ok maybe i am a little, but not about the ignorance part. I'm saying we're all ignorant and at least Agnostics don't forget that they way Atheists and Theists often do.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

Right now, in washington, the biggest polluters in our country are being given the oppurtunity to basically write their own environmental regulations. Do you think they are holding themselves to standards higher or lower than the regulations in place before they were in authority? The question is rhetorical.

theBishop

Yes, I disagree with some things that are legal, but that's for another topic.

I agree with you, when people are given the options of writing their own standards, they will most likely go down, not up.

But I also believe, no matter who is in authority, you, in the end, are responsible for your own standards.

Authority sometimes does not carry the weight we like to think it does.

Oh, sorry for the confusion, I'm not atheist, but Buddhist.

The funny thing is we all have the same understanding of this. We all just use different stories/words/whatever to explain this. We get all aggitated and pissy because other people can't see this thing that has become so insanely obvious to us and stick to something that isn't true. They're the same thing though, we hold to the descriptive properties of the metaphor that we hold true that we are blind to what other's have to tell us.

Partly due to the fact, for the most part, people get their views on people of a different faith from a biased source (like exagerrated depiction from television.) so they already have thier mind made up about anything coming from the mouth of "those people" before they even talk to them. Like how athiest roll thier eyes when a christian talks about "God", and how a Christian just waits for thier turn to denounce or quote scripture while an athiest talks about "Scienctific causal principle.".

When if they listened to eachother they'd say "hey yeah, I wouldn't have used those words but I agree."

That is, if the members from the two parties are thinking things rather then blindly following what they've been told.

Read my "same story different accent" thread for more on what I'm talking about.

quote:Originally posted by Social Junker:

Atheism is not about "doing whatever you want to do" just because you don't believe in God. I'm sick of hearing the "atheists don't have any morals" stereotype. If the belief in a God is the only thing stopping some people from doing "whatever they want to do", they should reconsider their beliefs.

Also, (to original poster), why is it so hard to to understand the mind of the believer? Religion has been a source of comfort since man invented it (that's right, I said invented it). Remember a time when you felt comforted, you felt safe, you felt that everything would be OK? That is the mind of a believer.

I haven't read Bishop's reply yet, so if I repeat him, please forgive my irresponsibility.

I think he is not necessarily referring to morals, but more about living for "self".

Your motives, as an athiest, for doing ANYTHING are based around your desires, your wants, and your needs.

From an objective standpoint, there is nothing wrong with that...on the surface.

I believe that is the point he was driving at. (I could be wrong)

The belief in God is not the only thing keeping people from doing whatever they want to do...it is the will to deny the flesh, which is what God commands us to do, which enables us to achieve COMPLETE fulfillment and contentment on this planet.

Which then leads to a certain kind of openess that most people don't have. This "clarity" (for lack of a better description) allows for a closer, more intimate relationship with God.

If I am not burdened with the guilt and memories of actions committed only for "self", then I am more open to God, and what His will is for my life.

Jeremiah 29:11

I don't feel comforted in the traditional, humanistic sense, by believing in God.

As a matter of fact, it is quite disheartening to come out to your car in a Target parking lot to find that it has been spit on for 10 minutes straight (only that length of time would sufficiently explain the EXCESSIVE amount present), simply because you have Christian stickers on your car.

Sure, it could have been something else entirely, but what ? I just moved to this town, so no one really knows me. So, it couldn't be a vendetta type of thing.

I have always driven this car, without an issue. I JUST put a Calvary Dove sticker on my car, and immediately I experience what I just described. Coincidence ? Maybe...but I don't think so.

I have several other examples of how I have been openly taunted or persecuted because of my faith.

I don't find my position terribly comforting, from a human standpoint.

The "comfort" you are referring to is most often found only inside the "safety" of my church.

But I go there once a week...hardly enough to sustain that feeling of "comfort".

I haven't submitted my life to God and Christ for the human pleasure of it.

The "peace" and solidarity that comes from beign a Child of God is spiritual, and originates from within.

That is something that CANNOT be invented by man.

quote:Originally posted by dearestnight_falcon:

What sickens me more, is that they have been allowed to do this, by the administration of a president who is "Christian".



How can ONE man do everything ?

The officials that have been elected to run your state should be responsible, just as much as Bush should be.

Can you even FATHOM how much our president (or any in the past) has on his plate right now ?

Does that excuse him from giving his attention to every issue our nation is experiencing ? No.

But perhaps it is not fair to say, "Why hasn't he taken care of EVERYTHING ?"

I am not defending what is going on in Washington, but take some responsibility for the officials YOU elected to run your state FIRST. That is, after all, what they are there for !

quote:Originally posted by Agnostic:

Its ok, please, continue to bag my belife.

And yes i do admit i am ignorant in wether or not god exists for you cant prove it. And i do belive there is something there. But it is definatley not the Christian god.

This is actualy quite funny. The one time the two sides agree on something its bagging Agnosics.

[This message has been edited by Agnostic (edited 10-03-2004).]

If you are ignorant of whether or not God exists, how can you say with any certainty that whatever is out there is DEFINITELY not the Christian God ?

You just contradicted yourself.

And I think your opinion has everything to do with personal feelings, and nothing to do with actual research.

And to answer the original poster: I DO know what it is like to see things from an atheist's point of view.

I was one, for a very long time.

I was also a satanist, without "amendments."

Now, I am a Christian, and it is painfully clear that there is a God, and not because I needed a crutch to rely on.

Anyway, not going to go into my testimony again, just thought I would point out that I am not so ignorant of the other side, contrary to popular belief.

How could I honestly say, with a straight face on, that atheist's are wrong, if I had never experienced their line of thinking ?

I speak as though my faith is the only one that is right, because I have found that to be true, through experience, and evidence.

I would have no such authority if I were merely a brainwashed sheep, plucked from the womb and groomed into the Christian I am today.

As a matter of fact, it would be impossible for me to be the Christian I am today, had I been raised that way.

I would not know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that there IS a most high God, and that He is the Creator of all things, had I not known the darker side of life FIRST.

It's kinda like being a cop...unless you have lived like a criminal, how can you truly think like one, and thus be an effective cop ?

Okay...tangent: Complete.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

And to answer the original poster: I DO know what it is like to see things from an atheist's point of view.

I was one, for a very long time.

I was also a satanist, without "amendments."

Now, I am a Christian, and it is painfully clear that there is a God, and not because I needed a crutch to rely on.

Anyway, not going to go into my testimony again, just thought I would point out that I am not so ignorant of the other side, contrary to popular belief.

How could I honestly say, with a straight face on, that atheist's are wrong, if I had never experienced their line of thinking ?

I speak as though my faith is the only one that is right, because I have found that to be true, through experience, and evidence.

I would have no such authority if I were merely a brainwashed sheep, plucked from the womb and groomed into the Christian I am today.

As a matter of fact, it would be impossible for me to be the Christian I am today, had I been raised that way.

I would not know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that there IS a most high God, and that He is the Creator of all things, had I not known the darker side of life FIRST.

It's kinda like being a cop...unless you have lived like a criminal, how can you truly think like one, and thus be an effective cop ?

Okay...tangent: Complete.

Flip-flopper.

what i want to know is this: will the animosity between different religions/philosophies increase until we can't possibly understand each other? i sure hope so.

jk

edit: the only belief system i don't understand is my own. i've already done the christian, agnostic, atheist, nihilist, buddhist, etc crap... now i'm just too tired to bother with it.

not that i really care, but what's that called?

[This message has been edited by Eil (edited 10-04-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Eil:

what i want to know is this: will the animosity between different religions/philosophies increase until we can't possibly understand each other? i sure hope so.

jk

edit: the only belief system i don't understand is my own. i've already done the christian, agnostic, atheist, nihilist, buddhist, etc crap... now i'm just too tired to bother with it.

not that i really care, but what's that called?

[This message has been edited by Eil (edited 10-04-2004).]

It's called apathy, and I was thinking about starting a religion based on apathetic agnosticism, but it just seemed to fizzle out. Maybe later.

ha.. that's funny... kind of

i guess you're right. if you ever start working on that religion, let me know... either email me, or post right her....

ah, forget it. don't bother. it's a dumb idea, on second thought.

quote:Originally posted by Eil:

forget it. don't bother. it's a dumb idea, on second thought.

If you're talking about apathetic agnosticism you're right on target.

SurahAhriman:

"Anyone who thinks 'there might be a god, out there somewhere', is mostly just dodging the question, probably because they've never put enough thought into it."

Admitting your own ignorance on a topic that cannot be proven does not imply a lack of research. Either side (theist or atheist) requires a certain level of faith. So, I'm curious, how does a lack of faith equate to 'dodging the question'?

"And agnostics who don't know, but don't care, are actually atheist."

I disagree. Atheism is the disbelief in the existence of a deity. An apathetic agnostic makes no such claim as to a God's possible existence. They simply realize their ignorance, and therefore stop caring about something that they can never understand.

quote:Originally posted by Eil:

ha.. that's funny... kind of

i guess you're right. if you ever start working on that religion, let me know... either email me, or post right her....

ah, forget it. don't bother. it's a dumb idea, on second thought.

Ask and ye shall recieve.

http://www.apatheticagnostic.com/

Damn, everything has already been done on the net.

[qoute]...Everyone from atheists to agnostics to theists are in the grasps of the same ignorance, confusion, and misunderstanding. Simply put, absolutely any opinion on the spiritual world is based on nothing tangible or provable [to others]. With nothing to go on, there are those who are ultimately incapable of putting faith into the issue; some who can put faith into it, but are unsure; some who can put faith into it, but do not care; and some who cannot live without faith in the issue. Where we fall on the scale is determined entirely by the importance our mind weights a God with, and whether or not our mind can put faith into insubstantiated claims the mind understands as critical [if infact we weight the claim as critical]....[qoute]

From a previous thread.

Yes, I see where people are coming from. It's really not that hard to do it, I don't understand how people can't understand how other people think. Ah, there we go, people I don't understand.

If you'd been brought up believing in God without question your whole life, and your entire family believed in Him, and you'd been taught always that that's the way things were, isn't that how you'd see them? It'd also scare you shitless to think that if you die, you're just dead. Especially after believing your whole life that there's something else. It'd be like having everything ripped away from you. And I'm about to say something somewhat controversial, and I'm going to get bitched at, but whatever. Most people believe what they were raised to believe. My parents and liberal and agnostic. I am liberal and agnostic. I have a brain, and I've questioned my parents' ideals many times, but I can't find fault with them. That's just the way conservative Christians think, too. Select few people end up believing something different than their parents, in the end.

This is the key to understanding other people: They're not aliens. They don't think differently. They think exactly like you. How is that difficult to comprehend?

You, Glitter, with your "all people are the same" talk should have realized this sooner! http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Actually, I believe us agnostics are on the firmest logical grounds. If there's no god? Cool, we never liked getting up early on Sunday anyway. If an all-loving god actually does exist? Fantastic, as an all-loving god would not give an eternal reward/punishment based on what you did over 80~ years in the craziest biological experiment ever devised. And if there is a god that is not all-loving? Well, who would want to honestly worship a deity like that?

I'm telling you, agnosticism is the best move you can make.

-Red Raven