First off, I've been raised in a Christian family.

I came up with a fundamental flaw in the Bible that nobody seems to have an answer for, so I thought I'd post it on here and let you guys argue with me about it.

In the Bible, it is commonly accepted that God created Adam, and he was the first man. God used parts of Adam to create Eve, which was the first woman. These were the first humans on earth. Adam and Eve had lots of babies and that's how the world's population started.

Theres lots of other stuff, but thats the basics of it.

Flaw #1: If Adam and Eve had a bunch of babies, then these babies would grow up and eventually have to have sex with each other in order for the human race to survive. This would mean brothers and sisters performing incest, which is against the "rules" of the Bible. The offspring of those people would still be related as "counsins," they'd have sex with each other and perform incest again, and so on and so forth.

This would mean we're all related, so I don't see how incest could be a "bad thing" if that's how the world started anyway. Not that I'm into that sort of thing.

Flaw #2: If Adam and Eve were the first people, why are there different races of people in the world? We have whites, blacks, indians, iraqis, chinese, russian, cubans, mexicans, etc etc. We all look noticably different than other races.

Unless Adam was half chinese, part russian, part black, part mexican and Eve was part iraqi, part white, and part indian or something like that, you cant come up with all these new races. Its like saying if you mix black and white together you end up with black. You don't end up with green, purple, red and all the other colors in the rainbow.

An arguement could be "Well we started out as one thing, and then people's features changed acording to where they lived." Such as blacks have dark skin because of the hot sun in Africa, or something like that. Well in that case, I could argue that this is natural "evolution." If we can evolve this much and change our physical appearance so drastically, than whos to say that we didn't evolve from amebas and there is no God?

We could accept this as a part of the bible that is untrue, or partially untrue, or that there are pieces missing. Mistakes do happen when a bunch of people are trying to tell a story that happened so many years ago. However, If we accept that this is partially untrue, who's to say that the entire Bible is full of partially untrue material? What if we're all doing the wrong thing, and the Muslims go to heaven and the Christians burn in hell? Or the Jews or the Hindus?

that's enough of my out-of-the-box thinking for now, lets see what you guys come up with.

[This message has been edited by Cash Stealer (edited 10-07-2004).]

Christians generally take the bible as metaphors and open to interpretation, thus they hold whichever interpretation gives them less problems, or seems less at odds with logic.

One interpretation? That the account was not literal, and that it is actually a metaphor for two cities which disobeyed god; not literally two humans.

In the biblical sense races developed from Noah's sons, and their offspring.

Ham

Shem

Japheth

Japheth shouldn't be considered Europeans as some bible believing people believe

[This message has been edited by Keltoiberserker (edited 10-07-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Keltoiberserker:

In the biblical sense races developed from Noah's sons, and their offspring.



Which makes it even worse!



But yeah, it isn't such a problem if you don't take every word of the bible, particularly Genisis, as absolute fact.

Thats the way quite a few people I know look at it - it contains spiritual truths, as opposed to actual physical facts.

But unfortunately, there has been a trend in the past few decades for Christians to take everything to the nth degree.

Literal creationism in the face of opposing evidence from the scientifc community is actually a rather recent phenomena.

Back a couple of hundred years ago, it was more like

"hey joe, did you hear? man evolved from apes"

"really? so THATS how god did it!"

I think Christianity would be a lot better off if they accepted the Bible as allegorical, not as the literal Word of God.

Perhaps you shouldn't dwell on what doesn't make sense to you or what you don't believe. Rather try exploring and researching to find your own path in life, and let others decisions and thinking not lie a burden on you.

quote:Originally posted by dearestnight_falcon:

Which makes it even worse!



You tell me, I only know this from when I was a Christian, and even then I wasn't literal.

quote:Originally posted by dearestnight_falcon:

Which makes it even worse!



But yeah, it isn't such a problem if you don't take every word of the bible, particularly Genisis, as absolute fact.

Thats the way quite a few people I know look at it - it contains spiritual truths, as opposed to actual physical facts.

But unfortunately, there has been a trend in the past few decades for Christians to take everything to the nth degree.

Literal creationism in the face of opposing evidence from the scientifc community is actually a rather recent phenomena.

Back a couple of hundred years ago, it was more like

"hey joe, did you hear? man evolved from apes"

"really? so THATS how god did it!"

It's pretty much all coming out from the US of Anus... another cultural export (yay). The root of it is quite possibly a reactionary response to modernity telling religion that it was unnecessary. So now religion is trying to tell science that it's wrong...... its a shame that the whole thing is going on really, it's:

**********counter-productive**************

for everyone involved

quote:Originally posted by Cash Stealer:

Flaw #2: If Adam and Eve were the first people, why are there different races of people in the world? We have whites, blacks, indians, iraqis, chinese, russian, cubans, mexicans, etc etc. We all look noticably different than other races.

Supposedly, this occurred at the Tower of Babel. I don't have chapter and verse, but it's a common enough parable that you should be able to find it for yourself. As for the rest...?

quote:Originally posted by Cash Stealer:

First off, I've been raised in a Christian family.

In the Bible, it is commonly accepted that God created Adam, and he was the first man. God used parts of Adam to create Eve, which was the first woman. These were the first humans on earth. Adam and Eve had lots of babies and that's how the world's population started.

i'm speaking of Christians and to Christians here although that doesnt mean i am limiting comment from Christians only... i'm just setting my purpose, for this (my) comment.

So, where do we start and where do we stop?

I know, let's start near the end..meaning present day.

If a person is a Christian, then that person believes in The Christ, The Messiah. Christians also believe that Jesus is The Christ and also believe that Jesus is the Son of the Living God. Christians also believe that the Bible is God's inspired Word.

With these basic principles, i am amazed that some Christians think that the bible is a bunch of metaphors and allegories and not to be taken literally. They believe in a God that they believe to be Holy and Just. So why would they think that the Word that He inspired should not be any less Holy and Just? Sure there are examples of allegories and metaphores, but these are used to explain things and are (usually) very apparent.

Now let's go back alittle. Since Christians believe in Jesus, let's look at something Jesus said. This is from the World English Bible Mark 10:2-9:

Mr 10:2 There came to him Pharisees testing him, and asked him, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?"

Mr 10:3 He answered, "What did Moses command you?"

Mr 10:4 They said, "Moses allowed a bill of divorce to be written, and to divorce her."

Mr 10:5 But Jesus said to them, "For your hardness of heart, he wrote you this commandment.

Mr 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation, `God made them male and female.

Mr 10:7 For this cause will a man leave his father and mother, and will join to his wife,

Mr 10:8 and the two will become one flesh,` so that they are no longer two, but one flesh.

Mr 10:9 What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate

First, Jesus is talking about Moses, as if He believed that Moses was an actual literal person. So if Christians believe that God is Just and does not lie AND they believe that Jesus the Christ IS the Son of God, part of the Trinity, then christians should believe that Jesus is just as truthful.

The second thing we see from this is that Jesus said, "But from the beginning of the creation, God made them male and female."

Nothing about two differing cities here. Jesus is clearly talking about marriage/humans.

Now, since Christians believe that Jesus is one of the Persons of the Triune God AND they believe the Bible is God's Word...Luke 3:23-38 ...Luke 3:23 and Luke3:38 (emphasis added)

Lu 3:23 Jesus himself, when he began to teach, was about thirty years old, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli,

Lu 3:24 the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melchi, the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph,

Lu 3:25 the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos, the son of Nahum, the son of Esli, the son of Naggai,

Lu 3:26 the son of Maath, the son of Mattathias, the son of Semein, the son of Joseph, the son of Judah,

Lu 3:27 the son of Joanan, the son of Rhesa, the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel, the son of Neri,

Lu 3:28 the son of Melchi, the son of Addi, the son of Cosam, the son of Elmodam, the son of Er,

Lu 3:29 the son of Josa, the son of Eliezer, the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi,

Lu 3:30 the son of Simeon, the son of Judah, the son of Joseph, the son of Jonan, the son of Eliakim,

Lu 3:31 the son of Melea, the son of Menan, the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan, the son of David,

Lu 3:32 the son of Jesse, the son of Obed, the son of Boaz, the son of Salmon, the son of Nahshon,

Lu 3:33 the son of Amminadab, the son of Aram, the son of Joram, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah,

Lu 3:34 the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor,

Lu 3:35 the son of Serug, the son of Reu, the son of Peleg, the son of Eber, the son of Shelah

Lu 3:36 the son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech,

Lu 3:37 the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalaleel, the son of Cainan,

Lu 3:38 the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

So if Christians believe that Jesus existed and is God, spoken of in God's Word... how can a Christian not think that Adam and Eve were the literal first people of God's creation?

It's getting late, so i'm going to try to tackle your flaws tomorrow (time permitting)

Good Night all, and God Bless you

quote:Originally posted by Cash Stealer:

Flaw #1: If Adam and Eve had a bunch of babies, then these babies would grow up and eventually have to have sex with each other in order for the human race to survive. This would mean brothers and sisters performing incest, which is against the "rules" of the Bible. The offspring of those people would still be related as "counsins," they'd have sex with each other and perform incest again, and so on and so forth.

This would mean we're all related, so I don't see how incest could be a "bad thing" if that's how the world started anyway. Not that I'm into that sort of thing.

As to the "rules", at this point in history, God had not layed down the Law.It wasnt until God had Moses lead The Chosen People out of Egypt, that there were rules "carved in stone". (And this goes for the part with Noah's sons, too)

The sin that Adam and Eve did, was they ate from the Tree of Knowledge OF Good and Evil, which God had said was of limits. The way i understand (in a nut shell), this Tree is where we get our conscience from. Presumably, incest was not of the Evil portion of that knowledge, later, when God gives Moses the Law, God lays out the rules. Once the rules are established, those things are included/highlight what is Sin.



If your question is in the realm of inbreeding, then consider a couple of things:

First, Almight God created everything from nothing, so i think He would have the power to give protection from inbreeding.

Second, (and this might be the way that He protected them from effects of inbreeding) the first people would have had pure (perfect) genes, so the effects may have been very minimal. Have to talk to a Geneticist on this, and see what they think.

quote:Flaw #2: If Adam and Eve were the first people, why are there different races of people in the world? We have whites, blacks, indians, iraqis, chinese, russian, cubans, mexicans, etc etc. We all look noticably different than other races.

I'm not sure about this. Is it possible that the human DNA has all this info in it? Or maybe the differences in races are a result of the inbreeding that we just discussed in "Flaw # 1"? Maybe both?

quote:Originally posted by Dead Helmsman:

Originally posted by Cash Stealer:

Flaw #2: If Adam and Eve were the first people, why are there different races of people in the world? We have whites, blacks, indians, iraqis, chinese, russian, cubans, mexicans, etc etc. We all look noticably different than other races.

Supposedly, this occurred at the Tower of Babel. I don't have chapter and verse, but it's a common enough parable that you should be able to find it for yourself. As for the rest...?





I believe that is the explanation for differences in language, not race.

Well,

#1: People lived to be like 700+ years old in genesis. Many biblical scholars say the reason we only live to be < 100 now is because of the incest at some level. Regarding the morality, it wasn't god's law at the time. You don't know enough about the bible to know the real question which is this:

Adam and Eve had two children, Cain and Able. Cain kills Able and leaves Adam and Eve. Then he marries. Where did his wife come from?

#2: when god seperated the people at babel, that's when the races came to be.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

Well, You don't know enough about the bible to know the real question which is this:

Adam and Eve had two children, Cain and Able. Cain kills Able and leaves Adam and Eve. Then he marries. Where did his wife come from?

Genesis 5:3-5 (NIV)



3. When Adam had lived 130, he had a son in his own likeness, in hes own image; and he named him Seth.

4. After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters.

5. Altogether, Adam lived 930 years, and then he died.

Chapter 4 talks about Cain and Abel. It also talks about Cain leaving and having a wife and son (and a few other things).

BUT what it does not talk about in Chapter 4 is when. It gives no "time" as to when this occured (relative to Adams life). It doesnt say how old Cain and Abel were when Abel died, It doesnt say how old Cain was when he left. The Bible doesnt say when Adam had daughters--MIGHT have been before the death of Abel, we dont know. So we also dont know when Cain "lay with his wife" and had Enoch.

Without chronology, the answer to what you call "the real question" comes down to realizing it happened SOMETIME in Cain's life.

On a side note... the above passages go against the "metaphor" idea that some people (even some christians) have. It talks about people living and dying..not cities, or ideas, but people.

The bible is mostly mythic. It is sad and scary to think that so-called intelligent people once took it so seriously.

quote:Originally posted by ArmsMerchant:

The bible is mostly mythic. It is sad and scary to think that so-called intelligent people once took it so seriously.

It is not mythic. It is not sad that anyone believed in it. And many intelligent people still take it serious and beleive it is the truth.

What is sad and scary is that many people (both intelliegent and non, dont know it, trust it, believe it.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

It is not mythic. It is not sad that anyone believed in it. And many intelligent people still take it serious and beleive it is the truth.

What is sad and scary is that many people (both intelliegent and non, dont know it, trust it, believe it.

It's as sad as you not believing in the latest Stephen King novel...