Why don’t I believe in god? Probably because there is no good reason to, besides to fit in, and that isn’t so important to me that I should have to compromise what I believe. Why do you believe in God? Because the bible says so? Why do you believe that the bible is the inspired word of god? There are plenty of different religions that think that they are right. How do you know that you are the true correct one? Do you think that the reason you believe the way you do has something to do with the way you were raised. I’m sure it does, although I could be mistaken. You ask me why I don’t believe in god but now I ask you; why do you believe in god? You think that god is all good but do you know some of the things he did that your youth group leaders aren’t putting emphasis on? Did you know that the bible says that god told the Israelites to kill all the women and children in Jericho, that god killed every firstborn child in Egypt as punishment for Pharaoh not letting the Israelites go, that god needed Joshua to stone a man’s whole family because of the one man’s wrongdoing in order to turn away the fierce anger of this supposed god who lacks such impulse control (Joshua 7:10-26). God is an angry, vengeful god who will continually torment in his presence those who are disobedient (Revelation 14:9-11). How about Numbers 31, where god chastised the Israelites for not killing all the male children (that includes babies) and non-virgin women (the young virgins were to be kept alive for the Israelites, v. 18). What is the origin of god, where did he come from? How can he create everything and know the intimate thoughts of all billion of us all at the same time and process it all as he conducts his huge drama. Why do Christians believe that prayer does anything? Christians get mugged, raped, murdered, robbed, tortured, sick, and the list goes on. What is god’s special purpose for an innocent woman getting raped? Is she going to have some grand future now because god wanted her to get raped? Many sick Christians get prayed for and nothing happens, they just die. If good happens such as winning the lottery then Christians credit god and burst into prayer. However, if bad happens, such as September 11, then Christians say that they must trust god because he has reasons for doing what he is doing and maybe that it is even a test. Why does he have to let so many innocent people suffer for him to have a test for us? To challenge the obvious would challenge your faith, which is then seen to be a sign of weakness or rebellion, hence we shy away from questioning even the most blatant things. It is okay to step outside the box and think for yourself because it can expand your mind and that is definitely a positive thing. So you ask me why I don’t believe in god, here you have it, the real question is, why do you believe in god?

-WES MORROW

why dont you believe in punctuation, grammer or paragraphs was it because you were raised that way or was is it because you dont want to conform to what society tells you to do paragraphs are especially important because they are very effective at seperating your ideas which makes it much easier to understand the point you are trying to make i suggest you check them out in response to the content of your post i am mostly unimpressed you are not saying anything most people havent already considered especially the people who frequent this message board posts like yours are a dime a dozen i believe in the christian bible and i was most definitely not raised that way when i started going to church my parents seemed to encourage me to not go to church my father who i will always respect as the key influence in shaping my outlook once told me he didnt think it would be a good idea to wait until i was married to have sex i tell you that not to say how good or convicted i am but to illustrate that i am at least one example of a believer who came to believe completely on my own all the common held ideas that the bible is full of contradictions or that it is intellectually inferior to believe in god really faded the more i read the bible and the more i talked to my pastor who is definitely an intelligent man even outside the world of religion the more i payed attention the more i came to believe that god wants us to question the bible and question our faith rather than simply believe in him because our parents did i hope i have helped you understand why i believe what i believe but i doubt you read this far because i had a very difficult time reading your entire post

theBishop

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

why dont you believe in punctuation, grammer or paragraphs was it because you were raised that way or was is it because you dont want to conform to what society tells you to do paragraphs are especially important because they are very effective at seperating your ideas which makes it much easier to understand the point you are trying to make i suggest you check them out in response to the content of your post i am mostly unimpressed you are not saying anything most people havent already considered especially the people who frequent this message board posts like yours are a dime a dozen i believe in the christian bible and i was most definitely not raised that way when i started going to church my parents seemed to encourage me to not go to church my father who i will always respect as the key influence in shaping my outlook once told me he didnt think it would be a good idea to wait until i was married to have sex i tell you that not to say how good or convicted i am but to illustrate that i am at least one example of a believer who came to believe completely on my own all the common held ideas that the bible is full of contradictions or that it is intellectually inferior to believe in god really faded the more i read the bible and the more i talked to my pastor who is definitely an intelligent man even outside the world of religion the more i payed attention the more i came to believe that god wants us to question the bible and question our faith rather than simply believe in him because our parents did i hope i have helped you understand why i believe what i believe but i doubt you read this far because i had a very difficult time reading your entire post

theBishop

Nice reply Bishop however i think it might have been even more effective if you had included punctuation but left it all down at the bottom of the page What do you think

,,{...} . ?

Sorry, i couldnt help myself... But i did like your reply.

im sorry bishop, you want me to rewrite it and indent some places so that you have a chance to take a breath? I thought that i was writing this to someone who could read it thoughtfully instead of poking fun at me for forgetting a comma here and there. I wrote this in the heat of a moment, so grammar shouldnt be that big of a deal becasue you always know what i meant to put... It is fine with me if you have found god on your own and it proves to me that you are independant. I put that people are christians becasue of their parents because in most cases that is true. However, i am not saying it is true for every person out there, which you just displayed. Im only 15, give me a break with the punctuation http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) . I know that people have probably come up with these ideas before, and i am not claiming to be the most innovative thinker. I havent read what other people have put in this context so i was putting it myself to say what christians would say to justify what happened in the bible. I pointed out some parts in the bible that ministers dont put emphasis on, wanting in return to have a better understand of how a christian thinks. Dont criticize me for trying to acquire knowledge! Ill try to make my posts more clear from now on..

Why be an atheist?

Neither side can either prove or diprove the other side's case. So what makes atheism so much better than believing in god?

Some people belive in god, some people don't believe in god. Atheists aren't smarter or more 'enlightened' than christians and visa versa.

On a more serious note, it isn't that hard to make paragraphs, just hit enter a few times.

why be an atheist, because there is no point in being a christian becasue there is no proof to believe in god. Why waste my time and get up on sunday's to go hear a bunch of bullshit about some figment of imagination? I took the broad path, but it is fine with me if others take the narrow, and we will still be arguing about religion for years to come, so get used to it http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)>

Why do atheists equate believing in god to being a christian/catholic? I believe in God, yet I cannot stand the catholic church. There are differences you know.

You cannot logically prove to me that there isn't a god just like I can't prove to you that there is a god.

You taking the 'broad path' while believers take the 'narrow path' is just another example of an atheist thinking they are more enlightened than someone who believes in god.

"Why do atheists equate believing in god to being a christian/catholic? I believe in God, yet I cannot stand the catholic church. There are differences you know.

You cannot logically prove to me that there isn't a god just like I can't prove to you that there is a god.

You taking the 'broad path' while believers take the 'narrow path' is just another example of an atheist thinking they are more enlightened than someone who believes in god."



I didnt say anything about catholics.

I have converted christians to atheism, so therefore i can prove to 'you'(not necessarily you, but other people like you) that there isnt a god.

The broad path is mentioned in the bible as the wrong way, or the way for atheists. It is the way for people who dont believe in god. The narrow path is mentioned in the bible as being the path that christians take becasue they believe in god. All i said is that i took the broad path, and you tell me that i am saying that i am more enlightened than you... i dont understand your logic....

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

Why be an atheist?

Neither side can either prove or diprove the other side's case. So what makes atheism so much better than believing in god?

Because atheists, the vast majority of times, means agnostic. It means they are neutral to the claim of the existence or non-existence of a god.

Why be neutral? Becuase that is the only rational position.

Yawn. This argument is stale, very, very stale.

quote:Originally posted by Freethinkers 'R us:



I didnt say anything about catholics.

No, but you mentioned christian numerous times.

quote: I have converted christians to atheism, so therefore i can prove to 'you'(not necessarily you, but other people like you) that there isnt a god.

The most retarded statement I have ever heard. How does a teenager converting another teenager to atheism disprove the existence of a god? I can't wait to hear the logic behind this answer.

You are not able to disprove god, be it through logic or facts.

quote:The broad path is mentioned in the bible as the wrong way, or the way for atheists. It is the way for people who dont believe in god. The narrow path is mentioned in the bible as being the path that christians take becasue they believe in god. All i said is that i took the broad path, and you tell me that i am saying that i am more enlightened than you... i dont understand your logic....

Misunderstanding of what you said. Since I don't reas the bible, nor do I ever intend to read the bible, I wouldn't know what you're talking about.

If you dont know what i am talking about then do not act like you do. If you dont read the bible then you are uneducated in this conversation so why are you in it? Also, why cant i disprove god? I can sure try! Also, so what if i am converting teenagers instead of adults, they can be just as closed-minded or open-minded as adults can be. Although i understand what you are saying because we are at a tender age for forming opinions.

If we are talking about using logic, then the bible shouldn't even be mentioned. The bible holds no bearing on the existence of a god.

I am still waiting for your evidence which disproves the existence of a god.

I would think the broadest path would be not choosing a path at all. By categorizing yourself, you've already placed limitations on yourself and your conception of reality.

"Irrevocable commitment to any religion is not only intellectual suicide; it is positive unfaith because it closes the mind to any new vision of the world. Faith is, above all, open-ness - an act of trust in the unknown." -- Alan Watts.

I would say you could replace "religion" with "philosophy" (or world view, or ideology, or weltanschauung or whichever term you prefer) and I don't think Watts would object.

The person making a claim of something's existence should have the burden of proof to show evidence for their claim.

Do you know why atheist always(almost always) place the burden of proof on the people who believe in God? It's because they themselves can't prove, sometimes even defend their own position.

We are both making unfounded claims, therefore we both should be able to provide evidence as to why we believe in what we believe.

I'll let you go first.

quote:Originally posted by Lolita:



"Irrevocable commitment to any religion is not only intellectual suicide; it is positive unfaith because it closes the mind to any new vision of the world. Faith is, above all, open-ness - an act of trust in the unknown." -- Alan Watts.



It should be noted that some religions are however more flexible in their world view than others.

You said you are a professor of religion, right, Lolita? You should post here more often, time permitting, of course. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Social Junker:

It should be noted that some religions are however more flexible in their world view than others.

You said you are a professor of religion, right, Lolita? You should post here more often, time permitting, of course. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Errr, yeah. I just made a post about this in another thread. I'm technically a Professor, but I don't have a Doctorate or even a Master's degree yet. I guess they just liked me. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif) I'm in the process of writing my Master's thesis. Well, researching it, actually.

As for the "some religions being more flexible than others" thing, I'm tempted to say it's all in how you look at it. My first reaction was to agree that Eastern religions are more flexible, but I think

it's all about time, place, and context.

EDIT: As an aside, I usually post here when I'm procrastinating on something else. I'm supposed to be writing a paper right now.

[This message has been edited by Lolita (edited 10-09-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

Do you know why atheist always(almost always) place the burden of proof on the people who believe in God? It's because they themselves can't prove, sometimes even defend their own position.

We are both making unfounded claims, therefore we both should be able to provide evidence as to why we believe in what we believe.

I'll let you go first.



I dont feel like defending myself anymore, but while were on teh subject of professors, my dad has a masters in bible studies, and a doctorite in marriage and family therapy. Therefore, he knows a legion about the bible, but he is atheist now.

Well if you don't want to defend yourself then don't make claims that you can't support.

Hmm, i'm not sure saying "the bible shouldn't even be mentioned" as part of a logical discussion is really fair.

If you asked me "why does god exist" and i say "the bible", then i agree.

However. The bible makes more than a few prophecies, and if they come true in some undeniable way, i think that's decent evidence if not actual proof. Also, the historic accuracy of the bible speaks to the overall credibility of the bible even though i fully acknowledge it doesn't prove the spritual aspects to be true.

theBishop

That is why I don't really like using the bible when talking about whether or not God exists. The bible is too subjective and too open for interpretation, so I just don't use it at all.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

Also, the historic accuracy of the bible speaks to the overall credibility of the bible even though i fully acknowledge it doesn't prove the spritual aspects to be true.



The historical accuracy of the Bible is actually much contested. While some things in it are likely true, some other things are likely not. The archaeological evidence that disputes the Israelite conquest and settlement of Canaan would be but one example.

Amen, Wes! Amen.

Freethinker:

The logic of disproving God's existence really throws me off. Let's say for a moment that I have an imaginary friend. I believe that he truly exists. Freethinker, in your mind, you seem to believe that you can disprove my friend's existence. I'd like to know how. Undeniable proof requires evidence, correct? How can a non-existent item/being/whatever possibly provide any type of evidence? Now, if you find evidence dealing with my imaginary friend... then wouldn't that prove his existence, rather than disprove?

Onto the next idea.

Napoleon:

"Do you know why atheist always(almost always) place the burden of proof on the people who believe in God? It's because they themselves can't prove, sometimes even defend their own position."

As we have stated, you can't disprove a being's existence. Therefore, it is up to the believers to prove God's existence.

Atheists don't believe in God due to a lack of evidence. Believers will not convert to atheism since they also see a lack of evidence... yet this is evidence that can never be. A non-existent item cannot provide evidence as to its non-existence. On the other hand, a living being can and does provide evidence as to its existence.

I seem to be rambling now. Anyway, I guess my point is that the burden of proof does, in fact, rest with the believers. I can claim that my imaginary friend is really here, but wouldn't you expect some evidence if I were expecting you to acknowledge him, as well?

OK, so then a theist will say that the proof lies in the structure and harmony of the universe, obviously the work of a creator with a plan.

An atheist can say that the structure of the Universe is simply nature at work.

quote:Originally posted by Freethinkers 'R us:

Im only 15

we could tell.

quote:Originally posted by UnknownVeritas:

An atheist can say that the structure of the Universe is simply nature at work.



So would the burden of proof be on the Atheist then if said atheist were to make such a claim?

quote:Origi"nally posted by napoleon_complex:

So would the burden of proof be on the Atheist then if said atheist were to make such a claim?



Not really. It wouldn't really be on anyone(in that case). 'What the structure of the universe shows' is in essence an opinion. A theist my say it shows a god created it, an atheist could say its nature, chance or whatever. It's really an opinion.

An opinion, that doesn't serve as any sort of proof or evidence.

"Nature at work" is an ambiguity. What's "Nature"? Already we're talking about some undefined thing "managing" the universe.

"Nature are work" doesn't generally refer to a being. It is, most of the time, used to refer to occurances in Nature, not to who is or who isn't controlling those occurances.

Bishop:

"'Nature at work' is an ambiguity. What's 'Nature'? Already we're talking about some undefined thing 'managing' the universe."

If you put a deer in a cage with a lion, you know what will happen. It is the natural order of things. The lion will eat the defenseless deer in order to survive. That's called nature, or the natural order of life. I don't see how this requires any sort of 'management' from God.

I don't know. I could be wrong. I like to look at debates such as this from several different perspectives. Just throwing some ideas out.

Christians are alot like atheists.

After all, they are only skeptical of one less god than them.

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

we could tell.



dude, im just trying to understand everyone's perspective on religion, and trying to decide on what to do. Dont criticize me for trying to obtain knowledge. Im sorry im not cool enough to have my own tribe, you hermit.

Too long didn't read..

murder/suicide

quote:Originally posted by Freethinkers 'R us:

dude, im just trying to understand everyone's perspective on religion, and trying to decide on what to do. Dont criticize me for trying to obtain knowledge. Im sorry im not cool enough to have my own tribe, you hermit.

I love you.

haha, im just messin around with u.