this has probably been posted before ,but i wanted what are some flaws/contradictions etc. involving the bible ,god,jesus and christianity in general. Also i was wondering if "The Da Vinci Code" was based on facts. Thanks

In respective order.....

Yes this has been posted before, yes in the bible, yes in the human conceptions of god, yes in the human conceptions of jesus, and yes in the human conceptions of organized religion. Partially.

If I'm not mistaken "The Da Vinci Code" was based entirely on Gnostic texts which many skeptics believe couldn't have originated during the time of Jesus as they are proposed to be. As everything related to religion there is much controversy though.

[This message has been edited by Ezratal (edited 10-13-2004).]

[This message has been edited by Ezratal (edited 10-13-2004).]

Here:

Flaw One (http://www.totse.com/bbs/Forum15/HTML/003087.html)



Flaw Two (http://www.totse.com/bbs/Forum15/HTML/003039.html)

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Here:

Flaw One (http://www.totse.com/bbs/Forum15/HTML/003087.html)



Flaw Two (http://www.totse.com/bbs/Forum15/HTML/003039.html)

These are not flaws in the Bible, they are flaws in human thinking. I am just ill equipt to argue them, but i have seen some sites that discredit them.

But basically, free-will and omniscience have limited definitions from a human perspective, but not from a God perspective.

one major flaw in christianity(never could spell that right)is; if "god" created everything and everything had to come from something, then where did "god" come from. and where did the entity that created "god" come from? and so on and so on. and another thing, how many times has your "god" suposubly destroyed entire cities and even the world for people being wicked? why not now? people are millions of time worse now than back then and yet, nothing happens except more crime, poverty, death. even newborn babies that have been alive for not even 30 minutes die. and if the world ended tomorrow and your "rapture" occurs, wouldnt the babies go straight to "heaven"? this is my perspective on this anyways. i may be wrong but there is nobody that can prove it either way. so i go with the most logical thinking.

[This message has been edited by ftwltmdi420 (edited 10-13-2004).]

and another thing, what makes christianity different from every other religion that has ever existed? just because it is written down does not mean anything. and if jesus is suposobly "god" then "god" chose to be a jew, because they are the "chosen people". so, if "god" is real and can do no wrong, then you are in the wrong for being christian instead of a jew. makes sense dont it?

[This message has been edited by ftwltmdi420 (edited 10-13-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

These are not flaws in the Bible, they are flaws in human thinking.

The same could be said of anything. Just because you say it doesn't make it true.

quote:

I am just ill equipt to argue them, but i have seen some sites that discredit them.

Mind posting them?

quote:

But basically, free-will and omniscience have limited definitions from a human perspective, but not from a God perspective.



1. How are the definitions limited? Because they don't conform to your dogma? http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

2. Your own bible uses those terms (or other words/phrases that signify the same. Is the bible therefor inadequate?

now, i dont know about all you people, but i love to argue religion. it is so fun because i hear basically the same thing everytime when a god person gets confused or stumped. they pretty much all say "if god had wanted people to know such thing, we would." how can people just be so ignorant to things. they believe what they believe just because somebody told them about it. or in most cases, told them to e.g. parents. so if your parents told you to jump off a bridge, then you would do it?

The fact Christians believe they're right, and everyone else is wrong... is possible its worst flaw...

Christianity has so many flaws, contradictions and bullshit in it that once you present it all to a devout christian who doesn't change his mind when you've finished then you end up with the

'invisible dragon in my garage' syndrome.

Basically the only way to avoid the obviousness of christiany's bullshithood is by saying that 'god' for some random reason is able to and has made the earth look older then it really is and several things to that effect, and that every other religion including the ones that predate christianity are sent by Satan (an attempt to shoo away the glaring threat to xianity that it is a hodgepodge and copyright infringement of various religious beleifs and concepts which predate it)

1. Noah's Ark ... lol (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html)

2. The Bible, the book containing the sole instructions for eternal salvation, was dictated by the big guy upstairs to a few dudes in the Middle-East around 2 000 years ago ... yet there are thousands of languages worldwide which the Bible hasn't been translated into. Does God not care about minorities? http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif)

3. God created a lake of fire (Isaiah 45:7) (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/is/index.html) and wants to save us from it. Maybe I could go around setting houses on fire so that I could rescue babies from them just in time and be worshipped as a hero http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif)

4. Either the Bible is perfect, God is perfect, scripture is perfect, and we should apply it to our lives in a totalitarian, bibliolatrous (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=bibliolatrous), literal manner ... or it's a guide and God not worth following. Why would God intentionally (and there is no other option per omniscience, omnipotence and omnibenevolence) give a flawed text or entrust incapable men with preserving the sacred, salvific writings? http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif)

5. There are some inconsistencies (http://www.geocities.com/closetatheist/dminconsistencies.htm) in the Bible, and one is too many. (see 4)

[This message has been edited by Mike Dogg (edited 10-13-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by shuu:

Christianity has so many flaws, contradictions and bullshit in it that once you present it all to a devout christian who doesn't change his mind when you've finished then you end up with the

'invisible dragon in my garage' syndrome.

Basically the only way to avoid the obviousness of christiany's bullshithood is by saying that 'god' for some random reason is able to and has made the earth look older then it really is and several things to that effect, and that every other religion including the ones that predate christianity are sent by Satan (an attempt to shoo away the glaring threat to xianity that it is a hodgepodge and copyright infringement of various religious beleifs and concepts which predate it)

I'm struggling here. You see, I'd tend to describe myself as a devout christian... and yet, very little of what have just sad describes me or my beliefs.

Then again, it could just be another case of the emperor having no clothes.

quote:Originally posted by ftwltmdi420:

one major flaw in christianity(never could spell that right)is; if "god" created everything and everything had to come from something, then where did "god" come from. and where did the entity that created "god" come from? and so on and so on. and another thing, how many times has your "god" suposubly destroyed entire cities and even the world for people being wicked? why not now? people are millions of time worse now than back then and yet, nothing happens except more crime, poverty, death. even newborn babies that have been alive for not even 30 minutes die. and if the world ended tomorrow and your "rapture" occurs, wouldnt the babies go straight to "heaven"? this is my perspective on this anyways. i may be wrong but there is nobody that can prove it either way. so i go with the most logical thinking.

[This message has been edited by ftwltmdi420 (edited 10-13-2004).]



ok if god created everything then it(god no need for a gender) created time(light or whatever you think time is related to) so if it created time then he is not restricted by its limitations, so it(god) has always existed.

quote:Originally posted by ftwltmdi420:

one major flaw in christianity(never could spell that right)is; if "god" created everything and everything had to come from something, then where did "god" come from. and where did the entity that created "god" come from? and so on and so on.



I don't mean to take any particular side here, just commenting on points made. You have to remember that a god entity wouldn't physically exist in this universe, NASA's never gonna stumble upon a heaven... Because any scientific laws we have only describe the way things work in our universe, it's impossible to use our scientific laws to disprove something that exists outside of that universe/plane.

[This message has been edited by pengd0t (edited 10-13-2004).]

I found a contradiction between Christianity and evolution. And I'm not referring to the obvious differnce in stories, but if you discredit the creation stories in the bible, and believe in Darwins theory of evolution you'll find a flaw.

Here it goes: According to the Bible humans have souls and go to heaven but animals dont, so why would God just come out and say to a select group of his creations, "I am God, I am privelaging you over all the other animals by allowing you to come to heaven."

Isn't it alot more likely that rather than God revealing himself to us over the course of history, that humans simply gained the ability to rationalize and tried to explain everything in the universe by saying that there is an almighty being?

My biggest beef with Christianity: a logical/moral flaw.

Due to this flaw, I came to the conclusion that either a) Christianity, or atleast its interpretation is wrong or b) God is a sadist who is undeserving of my praise.

Here goes: Let's suppose that God does exist and that Christianity is, indeed, correct. In the Bible, there is not one shred of proof or evidence that makes it more believable or more valid than any other religion out there. Nothing. Now, the Bible states that if you do not accept Jesus as your savior, you are doomed to spend an eternity in Hell. The Bible is full of holes, flaws, and inconsistencies that can be discerned with the logic that was given to us by God. Yet if we make that discernment, and make the logical conclusion, that Christianity is false, we are damned to Hell. In a nutshell, we are expected to believe something that cannot, or atleast hasn't been proven. If Christians are right, he might as well come down to Earth and tell everyone to pick a number 1-10. If you picked the right one, great, but if not, it sucks to be you.

quote:Originally posted by roccothesaint:



ok if god created everything then it(god no need for a gender) created time(light or whatever you think time is related to) so if it created time then he is not restricted by its limitations, so it(god) has always existed.



yeah but see, if everything has to come from somewhere, then it just disproves the entire theory of creation if "god" was always there. and if "god" loves his son so much, why did he let him get killed? what would happen if president bush(or your country's leader) let one of his kids get killed? there would be a damn mutiny. i wouldnt trust ANYBODY that doesnt have enough love to spare their own kids.

quote:Originally posted by roccothesaint:



ok if god created everything then it(god no need for a gender) created time(light or whatever you think time is related to) so if it created time then he is not restricted by its limitations, so it(god) has always existed.

I can understand what you mean when you say that God predated time... But we also know now that time is constant on Earth...

Earth was formed around 4700 MILLION years ago... Why did God wait 4696 MILLION years before creating the first Human-Like animals and a further 4 million years creating us the Homo-Sapians. Then after creating Homo-Sapians he waited a further 46 Thousand Years before telling us about himself and creating Christianity??

Time Line goes like this:

4700 000 000 years ago; Earth Created.

4 000 000 years ago; Human-Like animals on Earth (Our ancestors).

2 000 000 years ago; Homo-Erectus evolved (Human Beings)

50 000 years ago; Homo-Sapians evolved (Us)

2 000 years ago; God's son arrives and creates the REAL religion of Earth...

Why did he wait so Long?

Secondly:

On the first day God created the Heaven and Earth (Genisis)

On the third day he created the stars (Also Genisis)

If we now know some stars are planets, why do alot of these stars/planets Predate the Earth?... They should be 2 days younger...

P.S. This has always confused me...

[This message has been edited by Axiom (edited 10-14-2004).]

Continued from above:

BTW: The oldest stars are between 11-18 Billion years old... Tripple that of Earth at 4.7 Billion years of age...

[This message has been edited by Axiom (edited 10-14-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Axiom:

I can understand what you mean when you say that God predated time... But we also know now that time is constant on Earth...

Earth was formed around 4700 MILLION years ago... Why did God wait 4696 MILLION years before creating the first Human-Like animals and a further 4 million years creating us the Homo-Sapians. Then after creating Homo-Sapians he waited a further 46 Thousand Years before telling us about himself and creating Christianity??

Time Line goes like this:

4700 000 000 years ago; Earth Created.

4 000 000 years ago; Human-Like animals on Earth (Our ancestors).

2 000 000 years ago; Homo-Erectus evolved (Human Beings)

50 000 years ago; Homo-Sapians evolved (Us)

2 000 years ago; God's son arrives and creates the REAL religion of Earth...

Why did he wait so Long?

Secondly:

On the first day God created the Heaven and Earth (Genisis)

On the third day he created the stars (Also Genisis)

If we now know some stars are planets, why do alot of these stars/planets Predate the Earth?... They should be 2 days younger...

P.S. This has always confused me...

[This message has been edited by Axiom (edited 10-14-2004).]

How do you know how long ago the earth was formed?

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

These are not flaws in the Bible, they are flaws in human thinking.

The same could be said of anything. Just because you say it doesn't make it true.

You are right, Rust, just cuz i said it dont necessarily make it so.

There are only 2 possibilities: either God is or God isnt.

If God isnt, nothing matters.

If God is, then there are only 2 possibilities: either God is the God of the Bible or there is a different god.

If God is the God of the Bible, then He gave us His Word. If the Bible is God's Word, the only flaws are from human understanding.

quote:quote:

I am just ill equipt to argue them, but i have seen some sites that discredit them.

Mind posting them?

you have access to a computer and the internet, find them yourself...if you search, you will be more "picky" in what you read than if i post them. And you will have more choices too.

quote:quote:

But basically, free-will and omniscience have limited definitions from a human perspective, but not from a God perspective.

1. How are the definitions limited? Because they don't conform to your dogma?

2. Your own bible uses those terms (or other words/phrases that signify the same. Is the bible therefor inadequate?

1. If God is omnipotent and we are not, our definitions will be limited because WE are limited, not because of non-conformity of our doctrine (this too would be limited because of our limited nature)

2. no, the Bible can not be inadequate, since it is God's Word. The inadequacy is from our own limitations.

quote:Originally posted by roccothesaint:

How do you know how long ago the earth was formed?

Earth would have formed roughly the same time as our solar system... Around 4.7 billion years ago...

Mind you, The sun which was also created by God on the same day is a bit older but is still considered to be about 4.7 billion years old, taking its density and the fact that nuclear fission diminishes its density at a constant rate... And radiational measurement and using the a method called the Hubble Constant are but 3 methods...

Earth was formed roughly the same time, measuring it by similar methods of looking at molten rock and dating when the minerals

formed... The oldest rock known to be 3.9 Billion years old... This tells us only the age of Earth since we had solid rock on the surface... Before then, earth was a gas, like the planets in our outer solar system... As the sun can't heat them up enough to form rock...

Now since I took the time to tell you, please help me with my previous question?....

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

you have access to a computer and the internet, find them yourself...if you search, you will be more "picky" in what you read than if i post them. And you will have more choices too.

You don't understand the 'predicament' that puts me in. If you post them, I cannot deny there were sites that dealt with this issue. On the other hand, if I attempt to look for them, and find none, or none that discredit the argument, then you or anyone else, could simply argue that I 'didn't look hard enough', etc.



quote:

1. If God is omnipotent and we are not, our definitions will be limited because WE are limited, not because of non-conformity of our doctrine (this too would be limited because of our limited nature)

You didn't explain how our definition would be limited. Once again, the bible uses the same exact words we're using so, is the bible limited, since it is using a limited definition? If it isn't, then our definitions cannot be limited.

quote:

2. no, the Bible can not be inadequate, since it is God's Word. The inadequacy is from our own limitations.

You already admitted there was a possibility of god not existing, hence the bible can be inadequate. Moreover, what I'm arguing is, that the bible uses the exact same definition of omniscience. If that definition isn't inadequate in the bible, it can't be inadequate to us. Thus, the conundrum still stands.



[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 10-16-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Axiom:

Earth would have formed roughly the same time as our solar system... Around 4.7 billion years ago...

Mind you, The sun which was also created by God on the same day is a bit older but is still considered to be about 4.7 billion years old, taking its density and the fact that nuclear fission diminishes its density at a constant rate... And radiational measurement and using the a method called the Hubble Constant are but 3 methods...

Earth was formed roughly the same time, measuring it by similar methods of looking at molten rock and dating when the minerals

formed... The oldest rock known to be 3.9 Billion years old... This tells us only the age of Earth since we had solid rock on the surface... Before then, earth was a gas, like the planets in our outer solar system... As the sun can't heat them up enough to form rock...

Now since I took the time to tell you, please help me with my previous question?....





i don't know shit about religion or science i just want to make my point that if there is a god he could have always existed,anyway

there is no to tell how old stars are(at least i don't beleive so)too many things could have happened in those millions of years that changed how the star apears today.

About the bible tho it was written by man not god so greedy men have changed it to their liking and it has been translated 1000s of times,so just don't believe anything from it.

On to my belief, I don't think that all life was a coincident,too many variables have to take place at once,like the sun burning at the temp. it is,the earth's exact distance from the sun,Time being just perfect enough to allow concious thought.

hope this helps someone http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by ftwltmdi420:



yeah but see, if everything has to come from somewhere, then it just disproves the entire theory of creation if "god" was always there.

Maybe it's like a circle. God constantly creates himself, again and again.

quote:You don't understand the 'predicament' that puts me in. If you post them, I cannot deny there were sites that dealt with this issue. On the other hand, if I attempt to look for them, and find none, or none that discredit the argument, then you or anyone else, could simply argue that I 'didn't look hard enough', etc.

i think you left out one other possibilty..that you find sites to your satisfaction.



quote:1. If God is omnipotent and we are not, our definitions will be limited because WE are limited, not because of non-conformity of our doctrine (this too would be limited because of our limited nature)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You didn't explain how our definition would be limited. Once again, the bible uses the same exact words we're using so, is the bible limited, since it is using a limited definition? If it isn't, then our definitions cannot be limited.

sure i did. if we are not all knowing and God is, we are limited.

quote:You already admitted there was a possibility of god not existing,

if i were admitting the possibility of God not existing, it would have been done by expressing feelings that nothing matters, but things do matter, and i dont think i have said or implied otherwise. My statement was one of explaination, not doubt. In fact, if i felt that things do not matter, I wouldnt even be trying to help you understand God's gift to us... do you remember me saying something to the effect of "if someone were drowning, would you only try to help them once, and if it didnt work, screw it..i tried. No, we must continue to try to help them."

quote:Originally posted by B-12 Bandit:

this has probably been posted before ,but i wanted what are some flaws/contradictions etc. involving the bible ,god,jesus and christianity in general. Also i was wondering if "The Da Vinci Code" was based on facts. Thanks

The DaVinci Code is based on facts and Mystery. Unanswered questions to those facts. Yes, The dead sea scrolls exist. Dan Brown Is like Michael Crichton .. Both write their Books based on facts with Possibilities and twists from personal thought and perspective.

Have you read The DaVinci Code?

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

i think you left out one other possibilty..that you find sites to your satisfaction.

Well no. You see, the point is the possition leaves in a 'lose-lose' situation. If I find an article that refute my argument, I lose. If I find no article, then I'll be labeled as incompetent or a liar.

Now, if you look for the articles you claim to have seen, then the 'playing field' is fair. If you bring an article that refutes me, you "win" and I "lose"; if I sucessfully refute the article, then I "win" and you "lose".



quote:sure i did. if we are not all knowing and God is, we are limited.

That explians how we're limited on doing some things, not how we're limited in our definition. I could very well know 100% of a definition, every single thing that there is to be known about that concept and its definition, and not be omniscient nor omnipotent. Hence, that we're not omnipotent/omniscient, is not relevant to my question.

quote:

if i were admitting the possibility of God not existing, it would have been done by expressing feelings that nothing matters, but things do matter, and i dont think i have said or implied otherwise. My statement was one of explaination, not doubt.

In fact, if i felt that things do not matter, I wouldnt even be trying to help you understand God's gift to us... do you remember me saying something to the effect of "if someone were drowning, would you only try to help them once, and if it didnt work, screw it..i tried. No, we must continue to try to help them."

The point is there does exist the possibility that the bible is wrong. Whether you believe the bible is correct, or that you don't have a doubt, is not important, since I'm not arguing that.

My argument is, that if our definition of omniscience is limited, then so is the bible's since it uses the same definition as we do. Either our definition is not limited, or the bible is. You tell me.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 10-17-2004).]

Rust, I am xtreem's brother arcticwolf.

omnipotence and omniscience go hand in hand. we are not capible of seeing through the eyes of a diety anymore then you can feel the peace of mind that a true believer feels when they read about the love of an all knowing and all powerful god who, with all the power they poses, saw fit to tend to the miniscual needs of a tiny mortal like us.

You're good at arguing but you refuse to see the greater truth that we are not a chemical reaction gone awry.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

Rust, I am xtreem's brother arcticwolf.

omnipotence and omniscience go hand in hand. we are not capible of seeing through the eyes of a diety anymore then you can feel the peace of mind that a true believer feels when they read about the love of an all knowing and all powerful god who, with all the power they poses, saw fit to tend to the miniscual needs of a tiny mortal like us.

You're good at arguing but you refuse to see the greater truth that we are not a chemical reaction gone awry.



I could say the same of you. You refuse to see the greater good blah blah... You saying that changes nothing, so please spare me that, and try to pose a counter-argument.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 10-17-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by roccothesaint:

anyway there is no to tell how old stars are(at least i don't beleive so)too many things could have happened in those millions of years that changed how the star apears today.

Did you read my post... I just listed 3 ways of measuring the age of stars... Name one force that could have acted on those stars? They're suspended, in space, Millions of miles apart... They're known to be burning untouched for centuries...

quote:Originally posted by HèLLzShèLLz:

Have you read The DaVinci Code?

Yes, and it is complete garbage, in my opinion.

Nice story, though. *shrugs*

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

My argument is, that if our definition of omniscience is limited, then so is the bible's since it uses the same definition as we do. Either our definition is not limited, or the bible is. You tell me.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 10-17-2004).]

Except the Bible was translated into English from Aramaic and in some cases Hebrew, so many of the definitions (of the same words) are different.

That is why I always suggest that when someone is studying it, they have a Strong's Concordance nearby, and a English-to-Hebrew translator (book, website, etc.)

A lot of times, the intended definition (in Aramaic or Hebrew) is much different, or has an even deeper meaning than the definition given in English.

The stories are the same, the impact is different.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Except the Bible was translated into English from Aramaic and in some cases Hebrew, so many of the definitions (of the same words) are different.

That is why I always suggest that when someone is studying it, they have a Strong's Concordance nearby, and a English-to-Hebrew translator (book, website, etc.)

A lot of times, the intended definition (in Aramaic or Hebrew) is much different, or has an even deeper meaning than the definition given in English.

The stories are the same, the impact is different.

That doesn't matter. Give me the original Hebrew words, and you'll still have a paradox.

You cannot have a choice in any matter, if there is an omniscient being. Period. The problem isn't the translation, it's the belief itself.

Why is that a problem, if you're unaware of it?

DS, can you offer any websites that can translate English to Hebrew and vice-versa? I'm actually interested in learning about certain biblical stories and their respective significance.

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

Why is that a problem, if you're unaware of it?

It's a problem in that reasoning and therefore Christianity, or any other religion or philosophy which hold 'free will' and omniscience as possible; not a problem to me.

quote:Originally posted by Axiom:

The fact Christians believe they're right, and everyone else is wrong... is possible its worst flaw...

I didnt read all this threat cause I should be doing homework. So maybe this has been said who knows.

Anyway it seems like everyone nowadays tries to point out a flaw in christiany or some other religion and then when they do they feel so proud and good of themselves. OK realise this

GOD DID NOT CREATE RELIGION HUMANITY DID AND THEREFORE NO RELIGION IS PERFECT. There will always be flaws and contradictions in every religion and anyone who claims their religion is perfect is a dumbass ignorant fool.

There are flaws in everything that is human. Science has flaws in it and so does religion so dont think just because you think you found some flaws that you are sooooo damn smart. As well dont just toss aside religion because of a few flaws. Do you toss aside your math text book because some of the answers in the back are wrong? Do you discount evolution because its not a perfect theory? No most rational people dont. So I dont understand why religions are expected to be perfect. They were create by people as a means of worshiping God. Jesus didnt come down and say " Alright guys lets start a new religion". Neither did Mohammed or Buhhda I am pretty sure. So it was a human invention and not perfect so all these flaws you are finding are to be expected.

Dont lose the message of christianity or any religion while searching for all the flaws and statistical errors.