I am an atheist and i live in tennessee. This is most definately not the best place to grow up with my beliefs because im overwhelmingly outnumbered. I live in the bible belt, and vehicular evangelism is prevalent. Everywhere you turn, there is a church or a bumper sticker that says, "jesus loves you". If i tell someone im atheist then they give me a look of shock and try to convert me or they just dont talk to me anymore. However, that isnt always the case, most people accept me and listen to me and two of my best friends are atheist now. I want to know what it is like to grow up in a more liberal community, like california maybe, and if atheists are accepted there.

growing up in the boston area and going to a catholic h.s., i had no problems being atheist... in fact, there were a lot of atheists in my school. christianity isn't much of a staple to daily life here, since it's just assumed that anyone you meet may come from a very different background... so it's rarely discussed.

Noone cares even if your a satanist where I live in Florida.

People don't like you if you're a Christian around here, but we are crazy liberal. Society overall doesn't like an atheist, though.

I havent liked most of atheists that I have met, but I also haven't liked most of the christians either.

Society will hate you no matter what your beliefs.

I go to a school where everyone is an atheist. I believe in god so its a little werid but most of them just say thats stupid and leave it alone so I am fine with that.

Napolean nailed it. Society won't accept you no matter who you are, accept it. A more liberal city just means a different breed of morons. A majority of people follow because it beats the hell out of thinking.

Here's the thing about being an atheist, you don't have a God who will punish you if you lie or don't say you belong to him/her. So the next time some fucker tries to convert you just yell "Praise the Lord!" and be on your way. Don't try to do the impossible and convert others. Athiests are beyond childish things like miracles.

My catholic high school hates me being an atheist

I live in Nova Scotia, am an atheist, and there is virtually no discrimination toward any belief here.

The very thought of someone judging someone for the way they live their lives or what they believe is astounding.

yeah, americans are completely insane.

Not Americans in general, just conservative christians who dont accept others.

uh... uh...



uh.......



<ahem> ...uh...

quote:Originally posted by Freethinkers 'R us:

Not Americans in general, just conservative christians who dont accept others.

Don't forget atheists who ridicule other's beliefs.

I understand what you're saying.. I live in Tennessee too.. My families against what I don't believe and everyone else I seem to talk to so It's hard to relate to others who think like you.. No Matter what I say.. I'm wrong.. It's funny.. People are so narrow-minded.. Just don't talk to them unless they ask you.. I avoid any conversation of beliefs.. Unless they approach me and TRUELY want to understand and see things as I do.. And then It's one-on-one.. I'm not taking The whole city of Murfreesboro.

quote:Originally posted by Freethinkers 'R us:

Not Americans in general, just conservative christians who dont accept others.

No, he's right. American's are completely insane. They also care and apread the word instantaneously about superman and rodney dangerfield's death, but don't give a flying fuck about Derrida's death.

They don't even know who he is. Ya bastards.

quote:They don't even know who he is. Ya bastards.

Lmao

Rodney was an actor/comedian "The king of One Liners" Very witty. I care about him more than "Superman." Wasn't he complaining about Bush not allowing Human cloneing.. And said Do stem research..Because he hoped to walk in the next 10 years. Spare me the sob story.. It's not like he was helpless and somebody beat all of the bones in his body with a bat until they shattered.. He was on a horse and fell off.. Maybe he shouldn't be doing stupid crap.. Or maybe he should watch his step.. It's his fault. Why cry about how to world owes you and How you broke your spine trying to entertain them.. Moron!



[This message has been edited by HèLLzShèLLz (edited 10-16-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by HèLLzShèLLz:

I understand what you're saying.. I live in Tennessee too.. My families against what I don't believe and everyone else I seem to talk to so It's hard to relate to others who think like you.. No Matter what I say.. I'm wrong.. It's funny.. People are so narrow-minded.. Just don't talk to them unless they ask you.. I avoid any conversation of beliefs.. Unless they approach me and TRUELY want to understand and see things as I do.. And then It's one-on-one.. I'm not taking The whole city of Murfreesboro.



I know exactly what you are saying. I avoid talking about it now unless someone asks me directly and then they give me a schocked look...most of the time... Do people in Murfeesboro act like wiggers becasue i just went to knoxville for a soccer tournament and the whole team was white and they were acting so obnoxious and singing rap songs and saying things just like the "typical gangster black person" I know not all black people act like this..

quote:Originally posted by Freethinkers 'R us:

I know exactly what you are saying. I avoid talking about it now unless someone asks me directly and then they give me a schocked look...most of the time... Do people in Murfeesboro act like wiggers becasue i just went to knoxville for a soccer tournament and the whole team was white and they were acting so obnoxious and singing rap songs and saying things just like the "typical gangster black person" I know not all black people act like this..

Aww that was a low blow.. I'm about 3 hours from Knoxville and 30 minutes from Nashville.. Murfreesboro is in Middle Tennessee.. And Yes.. there are some white people who act like wiggers but that's more in smyrna.. There are wiggers everywhere you go.. Murfreesboro is more 102.9 the Buzz!!

I'm not sure if society accepts me as an atheist. I don't wear a shirt designating myself as such or anything.

I work in a Religious Studies Dept. at a univeristy and most people there know I'm an atheist and have no problem with it. Scholars, even religious ones, tend to be more liberal and open-minded.

On the other hand, I was grounded by my parents when I was a teenager for saying I didn't believe in God and didn't want to receive Communion. To punish me, they took away my radio. To get it back, I just said, "Fine! I'll pretend I believe in God and I'll eat the stupid wafer." That seemed to satisfy them. I wonder if they're surprised now at my chosen career in religion. Probably not, because the subject has been somewhat of an obsession for me since childhood. I was determined to discover all the answers and secrets to Truth and the universe.

I guess it's debatable whether I'm even an atheist anyway. I usually say I am because it's a fast and simple method of categorizing myself, but it's not completely accurate. When someone asks me if I believe in God, I ask them "Well, what do you mean by God?" and the conversation typically goes downhill from there. They usually end up walking away in frustration after my fourth or fifth question.

I think "God" is a meaningless term and I don't believe there is some cosmic Santa Claus in the sky that cares whether we are naughty or nice. However, my beliefs on religion are much more complex than my rejection of this single concept that I consider rather silly.

I actually call myself a religious atheist, if that makes any sense. It's somewhat paradoxical.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

Don't forget atheists who ridicule other's beliefs.

This is one of the things that annoys me the most. Being in St. Louis there is a wide variety of peeps with a wide variety of religious beliefs (except in dowtown you are lucky to find someone with a brain). When people ask me, I would be content to tell them I'm atheist and be on my way, and that rarely. The only time I ridcule other's beliefs is when they try to press them on me. Do you see atheists approaching people's houses asking if something is missing? Or walking up to people in the mall asking if they think they are secure with their religion? Most of the atheists that I have ran into are content at just stating what they believe, but anytime they tell that to someone "with" a religion they get a lecture.

I never said all atheists do that, but most of the ones that I have talked to concerning religion ridicule those who believe in god. They think they're more enlightened and smarter than Catholics(that's who they usually like to argue/make fun of).

A lot of atheists know hir or her own beliefs and respect the beliefs of others. But there are also a lot of atheists who will take every opportunity to try and argue with a catholic/christian, even going as far as to state their beliefs out in the open unprovoked just to try and start an arguement.

quote:Originally posted by Lolita:



I was determined to discover all the answers and secrets to Truth and the universe.





How's that working out?

quote:Originally posted by WolfinSheepsClothing:



How's that working out?



Well, I was 14 at the time and I'm nearly 27 now so you could say my aspirations have changed considerably.

I didn't discover the exact answers I was searching for because, somewhere along the way, I realized I was asking all the wrong questions.

To explain further would take far more than one post. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

[B]I never said all atheists do that, but most of the ones that I have talked to concerning religion ridicule those who believe in god. They think they're more enlightened and smarter than Catholics(that's who they usually like to argue/make fun of).

[B]



Hmmm - how disappointing. I'm basically an atheist, and I love Catholicism. Seriously! Protestant churches don't hold a candle to Catholic churches. (No offense to the Protestants here.) The incense, the holy water, the smells and silence...I love it all. I've got various statues, candles, and images of the Virgin Mary in my room. (And The Blue Madonna by Italian painter Carlo Dolci hanging in my hallway.) I love religious paraphernalia, and Catholic paraphernalia in particular.

Catholicism kicks ass.

it does more than just kick ass... just ask the altar boys

quote:Originally posted by Freethinkers 'R us:

Not Americans in general, just conservative christians who dont accept others.

Oh my God.

I can't believe you are actually that ignorant.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

quote:Originally posted by I_Like_Traffic_Lights:

No, he's right. American's are completely insane. They also care and apread the word instantaneously about superman and rodney dangerfield's death, but don't give a flying fuck about Derrida's death.

They don't even know who he is. Ya bastards.



There are plenty of people that would care, Christian or otherwise, if it were reported.

The thing is, we are completely sheltered from truth and wisdom, because our government understands that those who don't think for themselves are easily controlled.

We have just enough freedom to believe we think for ourselves, but we really don't.

Commercials prove that.

Back to the point, though...you just agreed with this guy that ONLY CHRISTIANS are close-minded and intolerant of others. ("No, he's right.")

I hope that is not what you meant... (??)

quote:Originally posted by Eil:

it does more than just kick ass... just ask the altar boys

Hey, ass-raping is an important Catholic initiation ritual!

quote:Originally posted by NewRage:

This is one of the things that annoys me the most. Being in St. Louis there is a wide variety of peeps with a wide variety of religious beliefs (except in dowtown you are lucky to find someone with a brain). When people ask me, I would be content to tell them I'm atheist and be on my way, and that rarely. The only time I ridcule other's beliefs is when they try to press them on me. Do you see atheists approaching people's houses asking if something is missing? Or walking up to people in the mall asking if they think they are secure with their religion? Most of the atheists that I have ran into are content at just stating what they believe, but anytime they tell that to someone "with" a religion they get a lecture.

No, you wouldn't see an athiest knocking on doors, because they live for themselves.

Those of us that try to spread the gospel of Christ do it out of love.

It's difficult, and embarassing, and completely subservient. It is not an easy thing to do, ya know.

And I have never seen a "true" Christian ridicule ANYONE for any reason.

However, spend some time amongst the folks here on Totse, and you will see plenty of Christian bashing going on.

That statement was not inaccurate.

Lolita, I suggest that you pray, sweetie.

*smiles*

quote:Originally posted by I_Like_Traffic_Lights:

No, he's right. American's are completely insane. They also care and apread the word instantaneously about superman and rodney dangerfield's death, but don't give a flying fuck about Derrida's death.

They don't even know who he is. Ya bastards.



Well, not's go making hasty assumptions now.

I am American, and I'm very familiar with Derrida.

I'd say most of the world, though (apart from pompous intellectuals), is unfamiliar with Derrida. Why are you singling out Americans?

Additionally, why would you imply that Derrida is somehow more important than Rodney Dangerfield? Dangerfield made us laugh, while Derrida gave us the ability to obsessively deconstruct our world using binary logic. Both have their uses.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Lolita, I suggest that you pray, sweetie.

*smiles*

Sometimes I do!

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Back to the point, though...you just agreed with this guy that ONLY CHRISTIANS are close-minded and intolerant of others. ("No, he's right.")

I hope that is not what you meant... (??)

Nyet, that is not what I meant. I was saying "no, he's right" to American's are insane comment. Merely because I was appauled that I found out about Derrida's death before my Philosophy prof., and I still found out 4 or 5 days after his death. I feel less and less American every day. Ironically so as I stand for America's original principles.

You were all once so free, why have you willingly ran back into being under control? Why do you let others let you know what they want you to know? Do you like being slaves?

Hellz Shells you're a retard if you thought I was asking why nobody cared about reeves death. For one, because I can't stop hearing about it, obviously people do care about an actor who fell off a horse. For two because it's Derrida's death going unnoticed I'm saying "for shame".

Though I do give proper respect to Rodney.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

And I have never seen a "true" Christian ridicule ANYONE for any reason.

Do you consider yourself a "true" Christian?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

No, you wouldn't see an athiest knocking on doors, because they live for themselves.



Oh, come on, that's a generalization, don't you think?

But I don't want to get into the whole "atheists have no morals" debate again, so I'm going to let it go.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

I wasn't insinuating that athiests have no morals.

I said they live for themselves.

If they thought that being an athiest would save them from some doomed fate, do you believe they would go around telling others about it, in order to save them from that same doomed fate ?

You'd be hard pressed to find one that would, based on my own personal experience (of being a pagan at one point), and observations of other that are athiests.

Sorry if it sounded like a generalization.

quote:Originally posted by Lolita:



Seriously! Protestant churches don't hold a candle to Catholic churches. (No offense to the Protestants here.) The incense, the holy water, the smells and silence...I love it all.

I've noticed that, as a former Lutheran, (the first off-shoot from Catholicism) they have some things in common. I was looking through my old "Luther's Small Catechism, and was surprised I did not see the similarities in my youth, I thought being Protestant was completely different from being Catholic. Then I learned the schism was over minor interpretations in Scripture, which did not seem so minor to me when I was Lutheran.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

If they thought that being an athiest would save them from some doomed fate, do you believe they would go around telling others about it, in order to save them from that same doomed fate ?

That's an extremely peculiar predicament to find yourself in. If athiesm were true then there would be no doomed fate in existence that simply being athiest would prevent. Hell, there would be no fate.

The only scenario I could envision this being plausible would be if the doomed fate was some religious police state, and the belief in freedom (which some might say is a "symptom" of athiesm) was what could prevent it. If that be the case, I think athiests would. They wouldn't bang on people's doors, or pass out fliers. No, then the doomed fate would come too soon.

There is an underground. There's always an underground.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Do you consider yourself a "true" Christian?

http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:



You'd be hard pressed to find one that would, based on my own personal experience (of being a pagan at one point), and observations of other that are athiests.

Sorry if it sounded like a generalization.

You were a pagan?! How fascinating. Not to completely change the direction of the thread, but what sort of paganism did you practice? And what led to your rather dramatic conversion? Sorry if that's too personal. And if you think the answer will be too long/complicated, feel free to start another thread.

quote:Originally posted by Social Junker:

I've noticed that, as a former Lutheran, (the first off-shoot from Catholicism) they have some things in common. I was looking through my old "Luther's Small Catechism, and was surprised I did not see the similarities in my youth, I thought being Protestant was completely different from being Catholic. Then I learned the schism was over minor interpretations in Scripture, which did not seem so minor to me when I was Lutheran.



Really? I've never been to a Lutheran church. I'll have to schedule a visit.

Traffic, well-put. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

I didn't give a specific scenario, because one wasn't really necessary.

The point of that hypothetical scenario was to point out that the essential "drive" of an athiest is to live for himself. (I am sure you gathered that)

It's just not often we look at them with the tables turned.

If "we" Christians were the world's affliction, and the athiests were it's "salvation", how different would it be ?

Something to ponder on.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 10-19-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Lolita:

You were a pagan?! How fascinating. Not to completely change the direction of the thread, but what sort of paganism did you practice? And what led to your rather dramatic conversion? Sorry if that's too personal. And if you think the answer will be too long/complicated, feel free to start another thread.



Did you think I was born into Christianity ? *grins*

I was involved in Wicca to begin with...and then my anger drove me toward darker things...

Third Reich...medium priestess...

Stupid stuff (looking back). *shrugs*

Did some things I don't really care to talk about...sorry.

My conversion was ordained by God. It was pure grace, and I still can't really grasp what it means, fully.

I was approached several times, by different people, in different places, who didn't know each other. Each one of them gave me a specific verse (the same one from them all), and I knew God was speaking to me.

I was at the end of myself, and honestly, I think that is the only way to see God, truly.

Lolita, I just want to ask you: What are you looking for ?

I know you are on a noble quest (truly) to gain as much knowledge about every religion possible, but you also said that this has been a passion for you since you were very young.

Can you think of a reason why ? (this is not a Christian Conversion technique...*LMAO* I am genuinely interested)

Thanks for asking. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

If "we" Christians were the world's affliction, and the athiests were it's "salvation", how different would it be ?

Something to ponder on.

It is something to ponder on, indeed. I feel, however, that a generalization of merely athiest or merely christian isn't up to par on this one. Don't be confused by the word "merely" on either account, because even the most devout christian even the most iconoclastic athiest shall succumb to being human.

A majority of Christians do so because they were born into the situation. A majority of atheist do so because of resentment towards being born into a religious situation. They stay there due to laziness or fear. Why go to Church every sunday? I wanna sleep in. I can't not go to Church or I'll infuriate God and feel his fiery wrath? I don't wanna die.

We must ask ourselves which is the most prominent emotion in all human life; Laziness, or fear.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

Great. Be immature then.

The first I think is fear.

Then apathy (not laziness. Laziness is a product of apathy)

I understand what you're saying, though.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 10-19-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Great. Be immature then.

It is YOU who is being immature, by asking juvenile questions.

You ask me if I think I am a "true" Christian to somehow trap me - to prove that I am truly not.

Except YOU don't know what a "true" Christian is, and you have demonstrated that by giving your uneducated opinion about it, time and again.

So, it is pointless for me to answer, so that you can "judge" me based on YOUR interpretation of what a Christian is, instead of what it really means.

I wasn't going to play that game with you, and I am still not going to play that game with you.

*throws his dice back*

Upon further speculation I have realized that atheist do indeed try to prevent doomed fate of others. Not all of them, but not all Christians go door to door with bible in hand either. It just doesn't appear to a christian that this is what they're doing. Just like it doesn't appear to atheists that christians are really stopping a doomed fate either.

The persepective's are different, so the perception of eachother's perception is just.....perverted at best.

A christian sees an unbaptized soul and feels for their brother/sister. They want their fellow souls to feel the warmth/love of God as they do. They want their friends to be a part of life everlasting with them.

An atheist sees this is limiting life. They feel that all this self-sacraficing dogma to put a drain on life sucking out all the meaning they could give it. Having an after life that's so much better and can't be proven/disproven means they can't enjoy their bottle of booze. They can't relax on sunday. They can't enjoy LIFE because of an afterlife that may not exist.

They both have the good intention within on a life worth living, but they fight eachother because of what they don't understand about eachother.

Which is sad.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

It is YOU who is being immature, by asking juvenile questions.

You ask me if I think I am a "true" Christian to somehow trap me - to prove that I am truly not.

Except YOU don't know what a "true" Christian is, and you have demonstrated that by giving your uneducated opinion about it, time and again.

So, it is pointless for me to answer, so that you can "judge" me based on YOUR interpretation of what a Christian is, instead of what it really means.



I love how you assume what my argument is going to be. I was asking because you say that you have not seen a Christian ridicule anybody... yet you say:



"Oh my God.

I can't believe you are actually that ignorant.

"

Which is clearly ridicule.

--

Anyways, since you brought it up... YOU haven't given any definition of what is to be a Christian, and actually proved how pathetic you can be by deliberately ignoring a definition which did not help your case.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Did you think I was born into Christianity ? *grins*

I was involved in Wicca to begin with...and then my anger drove me toward darker things...

Third Reich...medium priestess...

Stupid stuff (looking back). *shrugs*

Did some things I don't really care to talk about...sorry.

My conversion was ordained by God. It was pure grace, and I still can't really grasp what it means, fully.

I was approached several times, by different people, in different places, who didn't know each other. Each one of them gave me a specific verse (the same one from them all), and I knew God was speaking to me.

I was at the end of myself, and honestly, I think that is the only way to see God, truly.

Lolita, I just want to ask you: What are you looking for ?

I know you are on a noble quest (truly) to gain as much knowledge about every religion possible, but you also said that this has been a passion for you since you were very young.

Can you think of a reason why ? (this is not a Christian Conversion technique...*LMAO* I am genuinely interested)

Thanks for asking. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)





If you don't mind me asking, which Biblical verse?

You're not quite correct about my aspirations: I don't seek to obtain as much knowledge about every religion possible. I do find all religions interesting, and I would enjoy learning about all of them. That's a very broad goal, though, and I don't really have time for it! Since I will eventually be a Professor, what I study is gradually becoming more and more specific. (At the Master's level, it is more generalized but once you enter a Doctoral program you have to focus on one specific thing. I'm nearing the completion of my Master's now.) I want to study Caribbean Religions, which are typically syncretic blends of Christianity, West African traditions, and American indigenous religion. This is a personal interest, yes, but it is also my career path. I don't practice these traditions.

You also asked me what I was looking for. Honestly? A job!

If you mean that in a more spiritual sense, though: absolutely nothing! As an adolescent, I had many unanswered religious and philosophical questions that tormented me. During the past few years, though, I have a developed an outlook (call it "religious" if you'd like) that I feel completely satisfied with. I finally feel at peace with myself. I don't feel incomplete or that I am "searching" for something.



EDIT: I neglected to answer one of your questions. You asked the reason why I was on this search for knowledge. I should clarify that it's not just religious knowledge. I am inquisitive by nature, and I have books on virtually every subject you can think of: philosophy, history, ethics, economics, politics, chemistry, astronomy, physics, art, theatre, film...the list goes on. My Bachelor's degree, in fact, was not in Religion but in English. And before I was an English major, I was a Theatre major! My quest for knowledge spans all subjects.



[This message has been edited by Lolita (edited 10-19-2004).]

What is the point of personal attacks? I don't see the point in them in general, but ad hominum in regards to something that both sides claim to be a universal truth is just ridiculuous. Niether side makes any gain, nor does the truth become any clearer. Instead it is fogged over with this cloud created by a battle of the egos. Instead of searching for wisdom you come to the table with the preconceieved notion that wisdom is already yours.

Lose the notion of you. It's doing you no good.

quote:Lose the notion of you. It's doing you no good.

And by asking me to do that... you come with the notion that the 'wisdom is already yours', thus falling for the same thing you accuse me of!

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

And by asking me to do that... you come with the notion that the 'wisdom is already yours', thus falling for the same thing you accuse me of!

I was already aware of this irony. Hostility, however, does no good. One can not angrily convince someone of something, nor can one be pissed off and be persuaded.

Besides that I wasn't accusing you specifically of anything. Sure you are a part of the "you" I was referring to, but you are not ALL of it.

[This message has been edited by I_Like_Traffic_Lights (edited 10-19-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by I_Like_Traffic_Lights:

I was already aware of this irony. Hostility, however, does no good. One can not angrily convince someone of something, nor can one be pissed off and be persuaded.

Besides that I wasn't accusing you specifically of anything. Sure you are a part of the "you" I was referring to, but you are not ALL of it.



Well, when you post directly below me (yes Lolita is there, but you posted at the same time, thus you intended on posting after me) then it looks like your trying to tell me something.

In any case, my post was not hostile. DS was arguing how it is atheists who are generally anti-Christian and the has seen no Christian ridicule anybody... I was merely pointing out she had just ridiculed somebody, thus nullifying her point.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I wasn't insinuating that athiests have no morals.

I said they live for themselves.

If they thought that being an athiest would save them from some doomed fate, do you believe they would go around telling others about it, in order to save them from that same doomed fate ?

You'd be hard pressed to find one that would, based on my own personal experience (of being a pagan at one point), and observations of other that are athiests.

Sorry if it sounded like a generalization.

Sorry, for the misunderstanding, but I thought when you said "lived for themselves", you implied a hedonistic lifestyle.

I would agree, atheists don't go around telling people about their beliefs (or lack of beliefs, however you look at it), but I would say that is a part of atheism, not trying to convince someone to come around to their point of view. Like all views, you must arrive at them yourself (but I have known atheists who try pretty damn hard to convince people there is no god, which is about as hard as to convince someone that there is a God).

quote:Originally posted by I_Like_Traffic_Lights:

An atheist sees this is limiting life. They feel that all this self-sacraficing dogma to put a drain on life sucking out all the meaning they could give it. Having an after life that's so much better and can't be proven/disproven means they can't enjoy their bottle of booze. They can't relax on sunday. They can't enjoy LIFE because of an afterlife that may not exist.



You beat me to it, although the whole bottle of booze thing isn't quite the route I would have gone. It is true however. I see many religious people throwing their lives away (note this is only my opinion, and I'm sure they feel the same way about me) with church every week, praying, and thinking WWJD... They could be out having fun, sex before marriage, drinking, no religious worries at all... Do I try to "save" them? No, because I know they chose their own life, and I'm not going to try to change them from what they want to do... Does that mean I only live for myself? No it means I respect other's beleifs. If I saw someone drowning in a river I would stop to help them just like any Christian... Just because I don't try to change others doesn't mean I only live for myself...

Grace should free you from selfish concerns, and move you towards a more selfless concern for the other.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

I love how you assume what my argument is going to be. I was asking because you say that you have not seen a Christian ridicule anybody... yet you say:



"Oh my God.

I can't believe you are actually that ignorant.

"

Which is clearly ridicule.

--

Anyways, since you brought it up... YOU haven't given any definition of what is to be a Christian, and actually proved how pathetic you can be by deliberately ignoring a definition which did not help your case.

Telling someone that they are ignorant in that case is not ridicule. Rather, I was pointing out the obvious. It's a fact that this person is ignorant, or he/she would not have made the statement that they did.

Now, if I had said, "How stupid you are !" THEN you could say I had ridiculed him/her.

But I didn't.

You're such a manipulator...

I have given the definition of a "true" Christian in the past. If anyone else had asked me, I would have answered, but for you....I won't.

Why ? Because you are not asking for personal knowledge. You are not wanting to know the answer, or else you would read the Bible.

My view of what a "true" Christian is what the Bible says a "true" Christian is.

So, read it.

Stop using my personal, human iniquities to disprove Christianity, and therefor the existence of God. I am not THE template, I am just one of many.

I didn't ignore the second half of the definition to which you are referring.

Here is what I posted:

"One who believes, or professes or is assumed to believe, in Jesus Christ..."

The "..." was an indication that there was more to that sentence, but that it was not relevant to my point. I wasn't trying to hide anything, as anyone could go look up the definition themselves.

The entire definition is as follows:

"One who believes, or professes or is assumed to believe, in Jesus Christ, and the truth as taught by Him; especially, one whose inward and outward life is conformed to the doctrines of Christ."

There are two portions to this definition, and I gave the portion that deals with salvation.

To receive the salvation of Christ, one must believe in him, and accept him as THEIR own personal savior. That's it. That is all that is required to get into heaven.

To be a "Christian", which is to be "Christ-like" is what the second half of that definition describes.

The two are not synonymous, as there are many people who are "saved" and not walking in the ways of Christ. (backslidden/lukewarm Christians)

It is interesting that you insist on judging me for MY Christian walk, though you have no idea what it encompasses.

quote:Originally posted by Lolita:

[B]If you don't mind me asking, which Biblical verse?[B]

Jeremiah 29:11

*smiles*

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Well, when you post directly below me (yes Lolita is there, but you posted at the same time, thus you intended on posting after me) then it looks like your trying to tell me something.

In any case, my post was not hostile. DS was arguing how it is atheists who are generally anti-Christian and the has seen no Christian ridicule anybody... I was merely pointing out she had just ridiculed somebody, thus nullifying her point.

*LAUGHS*

Your posts are always hostile, Rust.

"Reality Check for the gentleman in aisle 5 !"

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Telling someone that they are ignorant in that case is not ridicule. Rather, I was pointing out the obvious. It's a fact that this person is ignorant, or he/she would not have made the statement that they did.

Now, if I had said, "How stupid you are !" THEN you could say I had ridiculed him/her.

But I didn't.'

You certainly did not say "You're ignorant". You said "I can't believe you're that ignorant". Clearly not intended as a statement of fact, but as ridicule.

Hell, you even used the "roll eyes" emoticon, to express your attitude even further!

Not to mention that, "You're ignorant", would be a redundancy in and of itself. There would be no need to say "You're ignorant", because every single person here is ignorant by definition! It only serves as ridicule, period.



quote:

My view of what a "true" Christian is what the Bible says a "true" Christian is.

Yet... you haven't quoted what the bible says...



quote:I didn't ignore the second half of the definition to which you are referring.

Here is what I posted:

"One who believes, or professes or is assumed to believe, in Jesus Christ..."

The "..." was an indication that there was more to that sentence, but that it was not relevant to my point. I wasn't trying to hide anything, as anyone could go look up the definition themselves.

The entire definition is as follows:

"One who believes, or professes or is assumed to believe, in Jesus Christ, and the truth as taught by Him; especially, one whose inward and outward life is conformed to the doctrines of Christ."

There are two portions to this definition, and I gave the portion that deals with salvation.

To receive the salvation of Christ, one must believe in him, and accept him as THEIR own personal savior. That's it. That is all that is required to get into heaven.

To be a "Christian", which is to be "Christ-like" is what the second half of that definition describes.

The two are not synonymous, as there are many people who are "saved" and not walking in the ways of Christ. (backslidden/lukewarm Christians)

Sorry, but you're completely wrong.

I said the dictionary agreed with me, and it does. You said that it didn't, and proceeded to quote the definition which ACTUALLY AGREES WITH ME!

The key word is "and"; whith it, the ditionary treats both aspects as requirements to be called Christian, hence the dictionary agrees with me, not you.

You deliberately left out the part which proves the dictionary agrees with ME.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 10-19-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Jeremiah 29:11

*smiles*



Thanks.

My favorite verse is Luke 17:20-21, by the way.

quote:There would be no need to say "You're ignorant", because every single person here is ignorant by definition! It only serves as ridicule, period.

Ok, then I will be more specific, so that I won't confuse you.

He is IGNORANT about God, and Christianity.

The rolling of the eyes indicates my frustration with people who are that blaringly ignorant, and don't even know it. (and then walk around spouting off their ignorance as truth)

It wasn't ridicule...but you'll just argue, so I'll leave it at that.

(and you're right, we're all guilty of ignorance of some form or another)

quote:Yet... you haven't quoted what the bible says...

As I have said already, if you truly wanted to know, you'd look it up yourself.

You can find a Bible in any church across the nation (well, I don't know about how things are in PR), and you can write the Gideons for a free one, if you can't afford to buy.

You don't want to know for your own personal knowledge. You are trying to set up yet another snare for me.

Not falling for it. Haven't I made that clear by now ?

quote:Sorry, but you're completely wrong.

I said the dictionary agreed with me, and it does. You said that it didn't, and proceeded to quote the definition which ACTUALLY AGREES WITH ME!

The key word is "and"; whith it, the ditionary treats both aspects as requirements to be called Christian, hence the dictionary agrees with me, not you.

Sorry. The "and" separates the TWO requirements (according to the writer's of the Dictionary), so to speak, though only the FIRST of the two is an actual requirement (according to the writer's of the Bible, which were ordained and annointed by God).

I don't HAVE to act like Christ in order to retain my salvation, it's just what God asks us to do.

Again, your ignorance of Christianity is obvious through your complete lack of understanding...salvation is not earned, by works, or otherwise.

Being like Christ is physical action; in other words, acts (works).

The only thing that delivers salvation is the acceptance of Christ as savior.

I think that definition (in the Dictionary) is poorly written, and our conversation is a prime example of why. There is obviously some confusion.

Though modeling our lives after Christ is an integral part of our faith (meaning belief), it is not REQUIRED in order to receive salvation.

Both the Bible, and the Dictionary's definition of "Christian" agree with me.

I am sorry you cannot see that. *shrugs*

quote:You deliberately left out the part which proves the dictionary agrees with ME.

No, I deliberately left out the part that was not relevant.

I have explained why it was not relevant above.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Ok, then I will be more specific, so that I won't confuse you.

He is IGNORANT about God, and Christianity.

The rolling of the eyes indicates my frustration with people who are that blaringly ignorant, and don't even know it. (and then walk around spouting off their ignorance as truth)

It wasn't ridicule...but you'll just argue, so I'll leave it at that.

(and you're right, we're all guilty of ignorance of some form or another

Yes, I'll argue, because I don't believe for a second that you meant it as a simple statement of "You're ignorant".

"I can't believe you're that ignorant" does not mean "You're ignorant", it means, "You're so ignorant, I can't even believe it" which is a figure of speech known as a hyperbole, which is used in writing to give emphasis. In this case, emphasis on what? On him being ignorant. You don't put emphasis when you want to state a fact, you put emphasis when you want to ridicule.

I would ask, anybody in this forum, to read your original statement, and conclude whether it seemed to be ridicule or stating a fact. I'm willing to be bet the majority would believe it was ridicule.



quote:As I have said already, if you truly wanted to know, you'd look it up yourself.

You can find a Bible in any church across the nation (well, I don't know about how things are in PR), and you can write the Gideons for a free one, if you can't afford to buy.

You don't want to know for your own personal knowledge. You are trying to set up yet another snare for me.

Not falling for it. Haven't I made that clear by now ?

1. You made the claim, so it is your burden of proof, not mine. Me wanting to know or not is irrelevant, since you made the claim. Not to mention that I obviously want to know, if not I wouldn't have asked.

2. If you were true to your convictions, you wouldn't see this as a snare, since you wouldn't believe "snares", in Christianity, would be possible.

quote:Sorry. The "and" separates the TWO requirements (according to the writer's of the Dictionary), so to speak, though only the FIRST of the two is an actual requirement (according to the writer's of the Bible, which were ordained and annointed by God).

Who here is denying that? Nobody. It's the fact that you used the quote to show how the dictionary agreed with you, when in fact it does not! THAT'S what I'm arguing.

quote:

No, I deliberately left out the part that was not relevant.

I have explained why it was not relevant above.



It WAS relevant, since you were using it to show how the dictionary supports you... which it DIDN'T. You left out the part where it DOESN'T. Hence, completely relevant.



[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 10-20-2004).]

blah blah blah blah blah. Gee, this sure is about whether or not society accepts people or not.

Just in case there's confusion on what I meant by that....fuck you.

Although this isn't about it anymore, it sure is demonstrating people's intolerance pretty well.

Is it just me, or does Rust and Digital_Savior seem like a old married couple who fight over everything?

I mean seriously, have you two ever agreed on something?

If you guys lack the mental capacity to ignore a few posts in a thread; to keep debating what you want to debate, at your own pace, without having to acknowledge a small amount of posts in the thread, then I pity you.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

If you guys lack the mental capacity to ignore a few posts in a thread; to keep debating what you want to debate, at your own pace, without having to acknowledge a small amount of posts in the thread, then I pity you.

I'm quoting just so you know it's for you.

If you lack the mental capacity to enter a discussion about your beliefs without getting angry and agenda pushing, then I pity you. How can you grow?

There was once a man who went into a zen master's seminar style teaching. The whole "I am playing the role of the teacher, you are playing the role of the student, but these are just roles we aren't either of these things" trip. Anyway, the man went into this with it stuck in his mind that he was smarter then the zen master, he was going to be an outright jackass the entire time. Asking question after question, not really wanting an answer but to prove how smart he thought he was.

It didn't help him one bit, and in the end the zen master slowly peeled a banana saying "you truly want to know what zen is?", then shoved the banana in his face. Not zen-like but funny.

Just a story to help understand.

The topic at hand is the the tolerance or acceptance of atheists in society. Naturally, the debate evolved to the acceptance of any philosophy in society.

DS was arguing that the brunt of the intolerance, present in society, was done by atheists. She went on to say, that she had never seen a "True Christian", ridicule anybody, to support her point.

I was merely pointing out how she had just done what she claimed no "True Christian" had done.

How is that me, "agenda pushing", and/or "getting angry"?

If anyone here is getting angry, or de-railing this thread, it would be DS, by originally whining, or you.... by whining!

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 10-20-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

The topic at hand is the the tolerance or acceptance of atheists in society. Naturally, the debate evolved to the acceptance of any philosophy in society.

DS was arguing that the brunt of the intolerance, present in society, was done by atheists. She went on to say, that she had never seen a "True Christian", ridicule anybody, to support her point.

I was merely pointing out how she had just done what she claimed no "True Christian" had done.

How is that me, "agenda pushing", and/or "getting angry"?

If anyone here is getting angry, or de-railing this thread, it would be DS, by originally whining, or you.... by whining!

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 10-20-2004).]

Ha HA....sweet.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Did you think I was born into Christianity ? *grins*

I was involved in Wicca to begin with...and then my anger drove me toward darker things...

Third Reich...medium priestess...

Stupid stuff (looking back). *shrugs*

Did some things I don't really care to talk about...sorry.

My conversion was ordained by God. It was pure grace, and I still can't really grasp what it means, fully.

I was approached several times, by different people, in different places, who didn't know each other. Each one of them gave me a specific verse (the same one from them all), and I knew God was speaking to me.

I was at the end of myself, and honestly, I think that is the only way to see God, truly.





Lithium, it's not just for breakfast anymore.

quote:Originally posted by I_Like_Traffic_Lights:

Ha HA....sweet.

Great.

I've never really been actively accepted as an atheist, more like tolerated. Which is perfectly acceptable. Thats all thats required of people for it to not adversely affect my life. Hell, the only person who ever prosthylytizes to me is my sister, and I try to be gentle about defeating her attemps, and go out of my way to not wreck her religious views. I spent about an hour last week explaining how my refutation of everything her *some biblical studies class* teacher said about creationsim was false, but all that did was mount evidence against the literal interpretation of Genesis. I even furthered it by coming up with compatibility between the two.

That'll probably suprise people who've seen me post here (DS), but I'm only militantly atheist online. Here, you come asking for a debate, and it's not like I care about anyone as a person.

quote:That'll probably suprise people who've seen me post here (DS), but I'm only militantly atheist online. Here, you come asking for a debate, and it's not like I care about anyone as a person.

And that's exactly why people misbehave the way they do here on Totse, or on any other forum, for that matter.

Not only is there absolutely NO personal accountability for what a person says, there is a complete lack of desire to see things objectively, because that's what we have to pretend to do all day long.

So, respect goes out the window in some cases (like when Rust called me a "whore").

If he had said that to me in person, I suspect he would have had his butt handed to him on a platter.

Things are much different here...it really shows the heartbeat of humanity, and it is really disheartening.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

Is it just me, or does Rust and Digital_Savior seem like a old married couple who fight over everything?

I mean seriously, have you two ever agreed on something?

No...we're not to that stage yet.

He is still relentlessly pursuing me, in order to gain my favor, so that I will end up his subservient significant other. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

I'm still in the "quit-bothering-me-you-pervert" stage.

Cat and mouse...ya know. *shrugs*

He would never agree with me, even if I said the sky was blue.

I am a Christian, and he can't stand it.

Honestly, I should stop replying to him altogether, but it is irritating to think I may be misrepresented by him, without a defense in tow.

I am pretty sure everyone here understands my purpose for being here, so it is probably not necessary that I reply to him in my defense.

I'm working on that.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

It WAS relevant, since you were using it to show how the dictionary supports you... which it DIDN'T. You left out the part where it DOESN'T. Hence, completely relevant.[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 10-20-2004).]

Here we are, in yet another go 'round, with no point in sight.

I'm done. My view has been conveyed sufficiently, and these poor people are sick of hearing us argue; for which you are to blame as the singular catalyst. I am ever the reluctant respondant.

*checks out of the hotel*

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:



Things are much different here...it really shows the heartbeat of humanity, and it is really disheartening.

I don't think the internet shows the heartbeat of humanity. I think the internet shows humanity with it's... well, humanity stripped away, leaving only cold metal. Here, it's not even just that there aren't any rules, it's that you never have to think of the person you're talking to as another person. Unless soneone is on here long enough that I've gleaned and remembered personal details, they're just text on a page, any arguement a guantlet to be taken up or ignored. I don't try to convince anyone. For all I know DS, you're a 50 year old man who gets off pretending to be an evangelist. I argue with people to make sure I have reasons to back my beliefs, and because I enjoy arguements. You could probably pair me up with a computer and I'd be just as happy.

I think it does, because people are being "themselves" here.

The "selves" that break up marriages.

The "selves" that sever family ties.

The "selves" NO ONE wants to see in public.

I agree...we don't commonly acknowledge other posters on forums as "people".

Does that excuse the distasteful behavior and disrespect ?

my community accepts me because i converted half of them to atheism now my town doesnt accept religious fucks

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I think it does, because people are being "themselves" here.

The "selves" that break up marriages.

The "selves" that sever family ties.

The "selves" NO ONE wants to see in public.

I agree...we don't commonly acknowledge other posters on forums as "people".

Does that excuse the distasteful behavior and disrespect ?

This is probably an issue for another thread. But regardless, I don't think people are necessarily "themselves" online, or at least all of themselves. The internet does seem to bring out the worst in people, because you'll never see the hurt expression your words evoke, and things of that like. All the internet does is remove many of the constrains of society, which has both good, and bad effects. On the one hand, people don't need to be polite, or considerate, which they would do in real life, because it's ingrained in them as a part of society. On the otherhand, there is alot more freedom on the internet. People will make their opinions without feeling threatened to constrain to social norms. I think the internet is just a different playing field with different rules, and how one acts in one doesn't necessarily have a bearing on the other.

If we were to ever meet by some chance, I'd never attack your views as I do here. Well, maybe if you were absolutely rabid in trying to convert me, but the most I'd do normally would be to deflect those attempts.

Also a topic for another thread, but it seems like you're implying that people are by nature evil. Care to comment?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Here we are, in yet another go 'round, with no point in sight.

I'm done. My view has been conveyed sufficiently, and these poor people are sick of hearing us argue; for which you are to blame as the singular catalyst. I am ever the reluctant respondant.



How am I to blame?

I asked a simple question, which you the blew out of proportion, erroneously assumed its purpose, and proceeded to complain incessantly.

My question was 100% relevant. Your replies where not.

Lets see how off topic we can go guys...

I think it does, because people are being "themselves" here.

The "selves" that break up marriages.

The "selves" that sever family ties.

The "selves" NO ONE wants to see in public.

I agree...we don't commonly acknowledge other posters on forums as "people".

Does that excuse the distasteful behavior and disrespect ?



Wow, DS...this is probably the first time my opinion has agreed with yours to 100%. The internet, without societal restrictions, brings out who we truly are. The anonymity allows us to reveal our deeper thoughts, desires, and emotions without recourse.

Sorry Rust, but you are the common denominator amongst all degraded threads.

It's a shame you can't see that.

Yet you ignore my argument, that it was clearly not I who de-railed this thread...and ignore that I didn't de-rail the Eisntein thread either... http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

Have any more examples, so I can defend myself? Or should we just take your word for it?



[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 10-21-2004).]