Thoughts, opinions.

Personally I admire most Muslims, Islam is a very strict religion, it requires complete devotion to Allah (Muhammad - Peace Be Upon Him - is Allah's slave and final messenger) and even one's food has to be killed the correct way (in Allah's name, throat has to be slit - this is because it lets all of the blood out). Being a Muslim is hard, praying 5 times per day can get fairly frustrating, though I always enjoy praying. Yet nowadays they are being persecuted becuase some nutters from Saudi Arabia hijack a plane and fly it into a skyscraper.

No flooding. It's not funny, it just pisses everyone off. Especially me.

Stoyve

Are you Muslim? Sunni or Shi'ite? (Or Sufi?)

You know, I have mixed feelings about Islam. I used to believe that Islam was a peaceful religion, because I like to believe the best about everybody, but the more I read about Islam (from neutral websites, not fanatical), the more that just didn't seem true. I'm not ready to make a final decision on that, that's just the way I'm leaning.

Social Junker:

Some websites are OK, but the Internet could easily be considered our contemporary "vast wasteland", couldn't it? So hard to find good information on it. Try books and journal articles, too. Also, you might want to speak with Muslims or visit a mosque. You're in college, right? Maybe you could take a religion class or speak with the Professor of Islam at your school (provided there is one).

I relate to some of Islam, and not to other parts. However, I can also say the same thing about virtually every other religious tradition in history. Most religions are too restrictive for me; I don't do well with boundaries and laws and rules. Caribbean religions, on the other hand, I find - for lack of a better phrase - really fucking cool. I could totally get into those. They're more about celebration than restriction, and that resonates much better with my spiritual outlook on life.

Anyway, I'm rambling and getting off topic. I've made a few good Muslim friends within the past year and they're some of the sweetest people I've ever met. So whenever I hear anyone criticizing Islam and its propensity for hatred and cruelty, I think of them and the kindness they've shown towards me.

I won't deny it - the Islamic world is fucked up. I don't think it's because the religion is inherently fucked-up (yeah, I'm using really academic language here, I know), but because of narrow interpretations of shari'ia (Islamic law). I'm more concerned with how this can be fixed, rather than discounting Islam as a whole. There's some complex issues involved, and I think we need to read and educate ourselves more. Unfortunately, I don't know enough about Islam to speak with much authority on it. Just the basics.

From your posts that I've read, I've gathered that a lot of your ideas about religion seem similar to mine. I think you're just a few years younger than me, and I was very into Buddhism at that time, too. I still am, but I've also realized the depth and beauty present in all traditions. Anyway, I was going to say you might be interested in Sufism, the mystical sect of Islam. Mysticism in all traditions fascinates me - whether it be Sufism, Christian mysticism, Kabbalah, Advaita Vedanta, Tibetan Tantric Buddhism, indigenous forms of shamanism, or whatever. You might want to look into it (assuming you haven't already). I wish I could recommend some good books about it, but I don't know of any. I've just read things here and there, in compilations and anthologies and such. Plus, one of my Muslim friends once studied under a Sufi teacher so he's been teaching me. Also - you've heard of Rumi? He was a well-known Sufi poet (and I believe the best-selling poet in the U.S. right now). Good stuff, if you're into literature. Poetry is my passion (one of the many), and I love him.

Anyway, keep an open mind and don't discount Islam too quickly; you might be surprised.

A Rumi quote:

"Beyond our ideas of right-doing and wrong-doing,

there is a field. I'll meet you there.

When the soul lies down in that grass,

the world is too full to talk about.

Ideas, language, even the phrase 'each other'

doesn't make sense any more."

Beautiful, isn't it?

EDIT: Sorry for the long post. Sometimes I get a little carried away. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)



[This message has been edited by Lolita (edited 10-17-2004).]

[This message has been edited by Lolita (edited 10-17-2004).]

Shit, don't learn about Islam on the internet... I've read some much bullshit...

Go meet actual people...

rumi

islam is really peacefull even if we muslims want all the planet to be muslim even by force but we think force is a necessary evil to save the remaining people from hell it's as simple as that and 9/11 if it was done by muslims is a legitime defence killing 5 millions iraqi children can't be forgotten

i think 1 9/11 is not enough

quote:Originally posted by Lolita:

Social Junker:

Some websites are OK, but the Internet could easily be considered our contemporary "vast wasteland", couldn't it? So hard to find good information on it. Try books and journal articles, too. Also, you might want to speak with Muslims or visit a mosque. You're in college, right? Maybe you could take a religion class or speak with the Professor of Islam at your school (provided there is one).

I relate to some of Islam, and not to other parts. However, I can also say the same thing about virtually every other religious tradition in history. Most religions are too restrictive for me; I don't do well with boundaries and laws and rules. Caribbean religions, on the other hand, I find - for lack of a better phrase - really fucking cool. I could totally get into those. They're more about celebration than restriction, and that resonates much better with my spiritual outlook on life.

Anyway, I'm rambling and getting off topic. I've made a few good Muslim friends within the past year and they're some of the sweetest people I've ever met. So whenever I hear anyone criticizing Islam and its propensity for hatred and cruelty, I think of them and the kindness they've shown towards me.

I won't deny it - the Islamic world is fucked up. I don't think it's because the religion is inherently fucked-up (yeah, I'm using really academic language here, I know), but because of narrow interpretations of shari'ia (Islamic law). I'm more concerned with how this can be fixed, rather than discounting Islam as a whole. There's some complex issues involved, and I think we need to read and educate ourselves more. Unfortunately, I don't know enough about Islam to speak with much authority on it. Just the basics.

From your posts that I've read, I've gathered that a lot of your ideas about religion seem similar to mine. I think you're just a few years younger than me, and I was very into Buddhism at that time, too. I still am, but I've also realized the depth and beauty present in all traditions. Anyway, I was going to say you might be interested in Sufism, the mystical sect of Islam. Mysticism in all traditions fascinates me - whether it be Sufism, Christian mysticism, Kabbalah, Advaita Vedanta, Tibetan Tantric Buddhism, indigenous forms of shamanism, or whatever. You might want to look into it (assuming you haven't already). I wish I could recommend some good books about it, but I don't know of any. I've just read things here and there, in compilations and anthologies and such. Plus, one of my Muslim friends once studied under a Sufi teacher so he's been teaching me. Also - you've heard of Rumi? He was a well-known Sufi poet (and I believe the best-selling poet in the U.S. right now). Good stuff, if you're into literature. Poetry is my passion (one of the many), and I love him.

Anyway, keep an open mind and don't discount Islam too quickly; you might be surprised.

A Rumi quote:

"Beyond our ideas of right-doing and wrong-doing,

there is a field. I'll meet you there.

When the soul lies down in that grass,

the world is too full to talk about.

Ideas, language, even the phrase 'each other'

doesn't make sense any more."

Beautiful, isn't it?

EDIT: Sorry for the long post. Sometimes I get a little carried away. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)



[This message has been edited by Lolita (edited 10-17-2004).]

[This message has been edited by Lolita (edited 10-17-2004).]

First of all, thank you for your post.

Yeah, I know about the dangers of internet research, anyone with a Angelfire account can create a website, but these were fairly academic sites (still, possible disinformation), but I did supplement with books from my college library.

Yes, I go to college, but it's a two-year college, focused on getting us out with a skill that will earn us money, so no theology department, unfortunately.

I plan on moving on to UNL here in town, taking some language (Japanese) and religion classes.

I'm not ready to discount Islam, either, I'm going through a "reality check" stage with Islam, kind of like what I went through with Christianity (if that makes any sense). I guess what I mean by that is this: When I was a kid, believed Xity had done no wrong in the world, that it's history was a shining example of peace and love, etc. etc. But then I had a "reality check", that wasn't true. (Like you said, that could be said about almost any religion on earth)

Later, I realized, I still valued Xity as a religion, despite that history, that's where I'm at now with Islam.

I like to take (or borrow, I guess) things from other religions, as well, because I believe all religions have the "buddha-nature" within them, despite their superficial differences, but I always return to Buddhism as my core (because it was so helpful in conquering my drug addiction).

I've looked into Sufism, quite interesting to me, I've known some other Buddhists who have looked into it, as well. I like Mysticism, it seems to tie humanity together, like a common bond, don't you think?



"Beyond our ideas of right-doing and wrong-doing,

there is a field. I'll meet you there.

When the soul lies down in that grass,

the world is too full to talk about.

Ideas, language, even the phrase 'each other'

doesn't make sense any more."



Ah, I like it. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) Very Buddhist (I say that about a lot of things), very calming to the mind.

quote:Originally posted by princecharmant1980:

islam is really peacefull even if we muslims want all the planet to be muslim even by force but we think force is a necessary evil to save the remaining people from hell it's as simple as that and 9/11 if it was done by muslims is a legitime defence killing 5 millions iraqi children can't be forgotten

i think 1 9/11 is not enough

Oh, stop saying "we."

None of the Muslims I know think that way, and I think that it's abominable that you're giving this forum's members such a small-minded representation of Islam. Most of them don't know much about the religion as it is, and you're just making them feel justified in their condemnation of it.

If all I knew of Islam was what you just said (coupled with media reports), I'd be disgusted with it, too.

My closest Muslim friend (who is an imam, mind you) has no wish to convert me to Islam. In fact, he says he feels like he's "every religion at the same time." This is exactly the way I feel about religion, too, so we get along wonderfully.

quote:Originally posted by Social Junker:

First of all, thank you for your post.

Yeah, I know about the dangers of internet research, anyone with a Angelfire account can create a website, but these were fairly academic sites (still, possible disinformation), but I did supplement with books from my college library.

Yes, I go to college, but it's a two-year college, focused on getting us out with a skill that will earn us money, so no theology department, unfortunately.

I plan on moving on to UNL here in town, taking some language (Japanese) and religion classes.

I'm not ready to discount Islam, either, I'm going through a "reality check" stage with Islam, kind of like what I went through with Christianity (if that makes any sense). I guess what I mean by that is this: When I was a kid, believed Xity had done no wrong in the world, that it's history was a shining example of peace and love, etc. etc. But then I had a "reality check", that wasn't true. (Like you said, that could be said about almost any religion on earth)

Later, I realized, I still valued Xity as a religion, despite that history, that's where I'm at now with Islam.

I like to take (or borrow, I guess) things from other religions, as well, because I believe all religions have the "buddha-nature" within them, despite their superficial differences, but I always return to Buddhism as my core (because it was so helpful in conquering my drug addiction).

I've looked into Sufism, quite interesting to me, I've known some other Buddhists who have looked into it, as well. I like Mysticism, it seems to tie humanity together, like a common bond, don't you think?



"Beyond our ideas of right-doing and wrong-doing,

there is a field. I'll meet you there.

When the soul lies down in that grass,

the world is too full to talk about.

Ideas, language, even the phrase 'each other'

doesn't make sense any more."



Ah, I like it. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) Very Buddhist (I say that about a lot of things), very calming to the mind.



Whether it's websites or books, though, I think all information should be approached with considerable caution. (I'm such a skeptic.) If it's a book, who wrote it? What year was it published? Does it portray Islam as a monolithic totality or as a collection of diverse forms and practices? These are all questions I try to keep in mind as I read, so I never assign authority to the text.

Whatever you read about the "official facts" of Islam, there are always exceptions. And, personally, I find the exceptions the most interesting. You can learn all the rules: Muslims can't do this, they have to do this, this is outlawed, etc., etc. And yet, I don't think this is an accurate depiction of the way Islam is practiced all over the world. The same thing can be said of any other religion.

Let's take Africa as an example. One out of every three Africans is a Muslim (quite a high percentage). There, Islam is blended with Traditional African Religions in some very interesting ways that are not considered "official" Islam. But what the hell does "official" mean anyway? Who decides? The scholars? The clerics? The practitioners? It may be somewhat obvious that my sympathies lie with the latter group. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

An example of syncretic Islamic devotion in Africa: Okay, Muslims are not allowed to pray to saints. (Just like Protestants.) In Africa, though, pilgrimages to saints' shrines (esp. for women) is quite a popular phenomenon. I read a great article about this titled "Women, Saints, and Santuaries in Morocco" by Fatima Mernissi. I recommend it. It's yet another instance where religious practice is considerably different from what the "official" religion is supposed to be.

Another syncretic African Islamic practice: In Islam, the Qur'an is sacred and holy. In African Traditional Religions, though, material objects (gems, beads, other paraphernalia) often possess spiritual power. So, in some places, the Muslim scholar will write Qur'anic passages in chalk on the ground. According to orthodox Islam, the Arabic words themselves are holy. But to a "Traditional African", the chalk dust is holy. So they gather the chalk dust into a vial, and wear it around their neck on a string to ward off evil forces. I find that fascinating. Someone may tell you: "But that's not Islam!" Well, screw 'em. What they consider "Islam" is not the way it's practiced in many, many places all over the world. I think the practice of religion is far more important than anything you can find in a book.



***

I went to a two-year college, too, once upon a time. Hey, it's a lot cheaper! What do you want to study when you enter a university, by the way? If it's Buddhism, we have an excellent program at my school. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) You said you wanted to learn Japanese and, judging by your personality, I assume you want to study Zen rather than Nichiren or Pure Land or something. We have a Zen specialist at our school (who I was supposed to work with before my interests did a complete 180). I can give you more info if you're interested.

Yeah, I think mysticism does give religion that "common bond"; it's the heart and soul of religion, rather than the doctrine and dogma. And that's what I think is most important. But, hey, I'm a romantic.

quote:Originally posted by princecharmant1980:

islam is really peacefull even if we muslims want all the planet to be muslim even by force but we think force is a necessary evil to save the remaining people from hell it's as simple as that and 9/11 if it was done by muslims is a legitime defence killing 5 millions iraqi children can't be forgotten

i think 1 9/11 is not enough



Here's a curious question I forgot to ask the first time around:

I understand that a lot of Muslims are upset with the way things are going (in the middle east, in Iraq, and elsewhere).

I also understand that there is a lot of injustice and violence going on in a lot of places in the world -- some of it being perpetuated by non-Muslims against Muslims, and some being perpetuated by Muslims against non-Muslims, etcetera.

I think that Muslims and non-Muslims alike are understandably upset and angry about being the victims of injustice and they also probably think that the world is going in a very bad direction right now.

One possible outcome is that this whole bloody mess ends up with at least one part of humankind wiped off the face of the earth. Depending on who you ask, that part might be Islam, it might be western civilization, it might be America, it might be Europe, it might be Israel, whatever ...

And it seems, on the whole, that the big conflict being shaped these days isn't nation against nation or hemisphere against hemisphere -- it really appears to be turning into Islam against everything else. Not that anybody really wants it to be -- it just is.

My question is this:

As a Muslim, can you think of anything that we can do to improve the situation on our end, and can you think of anything that you can do to improve the situation at your end, so that nothing in this world ends up getting destroyed.

Essentially, what I'm asking is: Is there any kind of compromise or negotiated settlement which would allow both the Islamic and non-Islamic parts of the world to live in peace and without fear of each other?

Wow, the maturity of Totse really came out in this thread, except for that one retard, princecharmant.

Yeah I agree, princecharmant1980 rocks!

quote:it really appears to be turning into Islam against everything else. Not that anybody really wants it to be -- it just is.

Where do you get your news? To me it appears to be IRAQ and most notably Saddam against 52 nationals invading under the guise that he was dangerous. Despite what the UN had being saying for years. They knew he didn't have the means because Iraq couldn't sell its oil and wasn't getting aid.

Your media, wants you to think Muslims are dangerous because it sells and rates better. If Muslims are dangerous they'd have to Primitively Strike over 30 Nations Globally...

You want to know WHY it appears like that to you?

Because the only link between September 11 and the war in Iraq was the fact that both countries have Muslim Majorities... THAT is the only link and so is the only thing you hear...

Edit: Just noticed that should read "Pre-emptively Strike"... Perhaps a Fruedian Slip...

[This message has been edited by Axiom (edited 10-19-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Axiom:

Where do you get your news?

I wasn't talking to you.

Islam is awesome.



Look at how they all stood up in universal disgrace on 9/11, and how they abhorr terrorism.



I really respect the way all Muslims speak with one unequivocal voice, on the immorality of suicide bombings.



Islam is so fun and cool, and peacefull.

In fact, I fully intend to malign myself with it.

quote:Originally posted by princecharmant1980:

islam is really peacefull even if we muslims want all the planet to be muslim even by force but we think force is a necessary evil to save the remaining people from hell it's as simple as that and 9/11 if it was done by muslims is a legitime defence killing 5 millions iraqi children can't be forgotten

i think 1 9/11 is not enough

Islam is for poor, sick, gay people.

It takes a special kind of dumbass to make such a comment, Snoopy.

The reason people have a problem with Islam today is that it's the opposite side of the same coin. Muslims do exactly what the West does, only directed back at them--so naturally, Westerners hate it.

I find it very ironic that Christian Conservatives in the US will talk about the virtues of keeping women at home, of being anti-abortion, of "liberating" others... But when Muslims say the same thing, the Christian Conservatives call them extremists.

Nevertheless, I'm not going to sit here and say Islam is a pacifist religion. It is peaceful, but not 100% pacifist. Islam does not say to invade and murder because it's fun. It says to make war only if war is made on you. Fight to defend yourself, never to subjugate. If a Muslim country is attacked, I'd say it's fair game that they fight back, don't you?

If Israeli troops send tanks and troops into a refugee camp, shouldn't the Palestinians defend their homes and families? If Jewish settlers assault farmers, destroy their crops, and poison their wells, why shouldn't the farmer's neighbors retalliate? When Jets violate a nation's airspace, why is it wrong for local militia and the army to fire Anti-Aircraft at it?

The world operates, whether you like to admit it or not, through right by might. The US, today, has the might and so it feels itself immune to any international law. Muslims, on the other hand, do not have much might, so they fight with whatever means they have; and what is taken by force is only regained by force.

And this is the reason I am anti-war. You cannot oppose just one side, because they are just doing what they feel is right. Instead you have to oppose the whole concept. If you don't like civilians being killed, then don't put them in harm's way by starting a war.

Now, Muslims and Muslim countries have almost unanimously condemned September 11th, and have done so repeatedly. Even the Taliban condemned it. How many more times do we have to do it? Do you want us to say "We condemn September 11th and we support George Bush, God Bless America" every day?

And finally, yes--Muslims are, in fact, a very admirable bunch. The religion is strict in terms of morality, but it is very reasonable too. The problems in Islam today arise from a lack of willingness to debate and discuss, and that's more an issue of dictatorial regimes who try to use the Qu'ran to justify their otherwise unjustifiable behavior. They will paint themselves as "Islamic States" so that anyone who opposes them is a "hypocrite" and an "apostate."

The problem with Americans is that most of them don't have brains, or at least a regard for anywhere beyond their state. They will never understand the subtleties to Islam.

[This message has been edited by samosa_chem (edited 10-20-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by samosa_chem:

It takes a special kind of dumbass to make such a comment, Snoopy.

The reason people have a problem with Islam today is that it's the opposite side of the same coin. Muslims do exactly what the West does, only directed back at them--so naturally, Westerners hate it.

maybe they should do what muslim fighters do and cut off their enemie's hands and heads? drag corpses through the streets? hide amongst civilians?... want more?

quote: I find it very ironic that Christian Conservatives in the US will talk about the virtues of keeping women at home, of being anti-abortion, of "liberating" others... But when Muslims say the same thing, the Christian Conservatives call them extremists.

but those christian conservatives are not in absolute power. they can't just pass laws. neither do we ('the west') allow our clerics to make our decisions. (laws, politics, etc.) we base our laws on reason and logic and let our people vote on it.

quote:Nevertheless, I'm not going to sit here and say Islam is a pacifist religion. It is peaceful, but not 100% pacifist. Islam does not say to invade and murder because it's fun. It says to make war only if war is made on you. Fight to defend yourself, never to subjugate. If a Muslim country is attacked, I'd say it's fair game that they fight back, don't you?

If Israeli troops send tanks and troops into a refugee camp, shouldn't the Palestinians defend their homes and families?

by going into israeli territory (rather than keeping grounds) and blowing up civilians which they accuse the other side of doing? come on, IF islam were superior in moral you wouldn't have to resort to target civilians. no matter if your enemy does or not.

quote: If Jewish settlers assault farmers, destroy their crops, and poison their wells, why shouldn't the farmer's neighbors retalliate? When Jets violate a nation's airspace, why is it wrong for local militia and the army to fire Anti-Aircraft at it?

The world operates, whether you like to admit it or not, through right by might. The US, today, has the might and so it feels itself immune to any international law. Muslims, on the other hand, do not have much might, so they fight with whatever means they have; and what is taken by force is only regained by force.

And this is the reason I am anti-war. You cannot oppose just one side, because they are just doing what they feel is right. Instead you have to oppose the whole concept. If you don't like civilians being killed, then don't put them in harm's way by starting a war.

or flying planes into skyscrapers... http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)



quote:

Now, Muslims and Muslim countries have almost unanimously condemned September 11th, and have done so repeatedly. Even the Taliban condemned it.

when did THAT happen??? http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif)

quote: How many more times do we have to do it? Do you want us to say "We condemn September 11th and we support George Bush, God Bless America" every day?

no, a couple a million peace-protest carrying rainbow flags would have done... wait... that was THE WEST PROTESTING AGAINST THE INVASION OF IRAQ!!! http://www.totse.com/bbs/eek.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/eek.gif)

quote: And finally, yes--Muslims are, in fact, a very admirable bunch. The religion is strict in terms of morality, but it is very reasonable too. The problems in Islam today arise from a lack of willingness to debate and discuss, and that's more an issue of dictatorial regimes who try to use the Qu'ran to justify their otherwise unjustifiable behavior. They will paint themselves as "Islamic States" so that anyone who opposes them is a "hypocrite" and an "apostate."

The problem with Americans is that most of them don't have brains, or at least a regard for anywhere beyond their state. They will never understand the subtleties to Islam.

[This message has been edited by samosa_chem (edited 10-20-2004).]

how come that more than 95% of the time a muslim defends islam the other side:

-is always taking quran verses out of context?

-can't understand the 'subtleties' to islam?

-due to not speaking arabic can't understand the quran?

-is a hater of islam?

Cougar

EDIT: fixed some UBB code

[This message has been edited by Cougar (edited 10-20-2004).]

quote:how come that more than 95% of the time a muslim defends islam the other side:

-is always taking quran verses out of context?

-can't understand the 'subtleties' to islam?

-due to not speaking arabic can't understand the quran?

-is a hater of islam?

Cougar





The Arabic is not an issue so much, as there are very good translations of the Quran (although it still loses much of its impact in translation). 95% of the time Islam is criticized, it's because of one or more of the above. The religion is never to blame; it's the people who are to blame. And when you try to portray Islam as the problem, then you are wrong. The cliche analogy is if the KKK lynches a black man, is Christianity the problem? It's also worth noting that the most scathing (and most frequently heard) criticism of Islam comes from Zionists (Christians and Jews), Televangelists, and former Muslims. I have seldom seen a "liberal" criticize Islam, although I have seen them criticize certain practices and regimes in Muslim countries. On the other hand, I have seen Conservative pundits calling for using Nuclear Weapons against Afghanistan, Iran, and Syria. Ann Coulter said we should "invade their countries, take their oil, and convert them to Christianity," or something of that effect. Yes, they are Islam haters.

Now given, Muslims follow a certain lifestyle that many Westerners would not like. But if you think about it, it's little different from the practices in Victorian England. If Westerners don't like it, they don't have to be part of the religion. But it suits Muslims just fine--and those Muslims who don't like it don't follow it to a letter. I remember a woman telling me how she was wearing her headscarf in the food store (mind you, she wears this by her own choice as does everyone I know who wears one), and another woman keeps giving her funny looks. Finally this second woman goes up to her and says, "Dear, you're in America now; you don't have to wear that anymore..." It's kinda like going to a different country where people don't believe in wearing shirts. For those of us who have lived our whole lives with them, we would be uncomfortable to take them off. But this shows you the level of ignorance of the average American. The problem is that they don't know they are ignorant, and that makes them fools.

And Islam has so many little subleties and quirks in its laws that most people fail to understand them. The general rule is that the Qu'ran comes first, then the Sunna (Mohammad's (Peace Be Upon Him) ways), then Hadith. Shariah law is not some static force; it is the interpretation of all these things together, and it is always changing.

But the critics of Islam have a unique lack of understanding that makes them stand out.

It usually isn't the little quirks that they falter on, though. They try to deceive and they intentionally take passages out of context or fail to see their significance in the bigger picture of the Qur'an.

quote:Originally posted by samosa_chem:

95% of the time Islam is criticized, it's because of one or more of the above.

like i said...

- you're generalizing 'americans'. i can't stand that even though i disapprove of many things their current government does. it just shows that you can't differentiate.

- i think the KKK is a bunch of dangerous psychopaths. there: i stated it openly and would do so any time again! where are MUSLIM peace protests?

- victorian england is P A S T. it doesn't fit the modern world anymore. women are as intelligent as men. (don't tell them, some of them might take it as an insult http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif) ) they have the same rights. their statement in a court has the same weight as that of a man.

- why do you think a former muslim would have to criticize islam? islam is peaceful and you said:

quote:The religion is never to blame

- liberals don't criticize islam because it's not 'politically correct', fearing for their reputation. ask them if they want to join islam...

- zionism is jewish. look: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=zionist

- Ann Coulter isn't a politician. how many muslim writers/journalists have called to destroy 'the great satan'? they are real judaism/christianity-lovers... http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

- war has always been and always will be: SHIT. period.

- quote:(mind you, she wears this by her own choice as does everyone I know who wears one) where do you live then? i'm sure not all muslim women wear it by their own choice.

- quote:But the critics of Islam have a unique lack of understanding that makes them stand out. all of them lack understanding? i just can't believe that.

you accuse (all?) americans to be ignorant yet you refuse to consider (only consider!) that your sacrosanct quran might have flaws... (like the bible has) THAT is the true meaning of ignorance (from the latin verb 'ignorare' to not know)

believe it or not but i consider people to be good until shown otherwise (for each single person). so don't be upset but engage in a discussion.

don't just SAY the quran is infallible. PROVE it. i can't prove the bible to be infallible but i also don't say it is. it's what it is: a book. a set of guidelines, not strict rules. written by man. man is bound to err. so is the quran, written by man.



Cougar

It seems I was fuzzy on a few points, so I will clarify myself http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) . I guess I am a bit guilty of generalizing, too; I will try to avoid that from now on.

All Muslims want peace, just not a surrender. As it is, many subnational Muslims are being subjugated--so to advocate for simply "peace at any cost" leads to subjugation. Rather, they want "peace and respect." Everyone loves peace and good relations with their neighbors. So since we agree on this, and are both anti-war we need not discuss it further http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif).

By the way, Zionism is an ideal and not specific to a religion. There are Christian Zionists in the United States, and I kid you not. Just look at the Republicans in the House of Representatives and the Senate. Congressman Tom DeLay, especially.

Also, I have never seen a Muslim writer calling for nuclear war or any attack on the US. I have seen people like Bin Laden calling for attacks on US troops and Americans abroad, though. And perhaps the most inflammatory statement along these lines was Hassan Nasrallah of Hezbullah saying, "Death to Israel, Death to America." Not a specific threat, but more a statement of anger. But this idea of a "great satan" is very dated though...I don't know anyone who sees the United States that way. And if you remember your history, the Muslim world has had pretty good relations with the United States up until the 1960s or so.



quote: where do you live then? i'm sure not all muslim women wear it by their own choice.

This is a stereotype/misconception, that husbands/brothers/fathers force headscarves on their women. It's a myth. I have never seen this happen, anywhere. My sister once wore a headscarf, but she grew tired of it and she no longer does. I see many Pakistani girls going about with their hair showing. But then I have some friends who wear their scarf and loose clothing no matter how uncomfortable it is--they have chosen to. I live in the US, by the way, but this is also the case in Europe. A few weeks ago, a French girl who refused to show her hair in school decided that if she couldn't wear her scarf, she'd shave her head so that she could show her loyalty to her religion and her country. Look for some pictures of Arab women in Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, or Iraq--I guarantee you will see many of them bareheaded. Nobody makes them cover up because that's not how you teach religion. They teach by encouragement, not by a big boot.

So in a respect, it's not quite Victorian England. But some social things are similar, such as supervision of young men and women together and preservation of modesty. As you can imagine, it varies from country to country, with countries like Pakistan, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Bangladesh being the most conservative and Turkey, Egypt, Syria, and the communities in Spain and the US being the most liberal. As was pointed out earlier, there are many different flavors of Islam.

I don't say all Americans are ignorant of the rest of the world, but an appalling number are. This isn't uniquely American though--people are like this all over the world. Why should they be concerned with the things that they don't control and that don't affect them directly? But with the US being such a powerful country and with such an involved foreign policy, it is rather shocking that so many people don't know what's going on.

Where did you jump to this conclusion that I said the Qu'ran was literal and infallible?? I have not even finished reading the Qu'ran, so I will hold my judgment of it. In fact, I will withold my judgment on it until I have read it in Arabic for its full impact. I don't trust translators--too often they throw their own interpretations into their work (you will see them in parentheses in translated Qurans), so a lot of meaning is lost. More than that, in English, you completely miss out on the true poetry of the Quran. It's really an amazing book. If it is written by man (I, personally, doubt this), then the man who wrote it has possibly the greatest control of language ever.

Now, why would a former Muslim criticize Islam? Good question. Maybe one of the different flavors just left a bad taste in their mouth. Maybe their parents tried to force religion onto them and so they rebelled from it. But from many of the statements I've read by them, they imply they have a lack of thorough understanding of the religion. A typical complaint is, "Why do women have to cover their head when they pray?? It makes me feel like it's not a very close, friendly God..." for example--something that is taught in the first year at any madrassah (the equivalent of a sunday school). The simple answer is to show respect and humbleness toward their creator. In fact, men are encouraged to the same--Islam is very even, you see http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

peace = good, agreed. let's move on. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

zionism was initially a jewish movement. the current (christian) advocators of an israeli state are motivated by the threats israel is facing nowadays. and yes, i heard (both kerry and bush) vowing support for israel in their debates.

they DO call the US the 'great satan'...

http://www.worldtrek.org/odyssey/mideast/042600/042600kavispies.html http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=1074

maybe dated but still harsh.

to call "Death to Israel, Death to America." a statement of anger is like saying: hitler was 'not nice'... a statement of anger would be: shit, dammit, fuck,... don't you agree?

it's not 'my' history. i'm not american... i don't even live there. but even if it was 'my' history, it's just that... history. it's a shame it has changed. what would have been if the arabic culture had kept on striving for even more science? the middle east might be the leading nation and (maybe?) live peacefully with it's neighbors. (muslim and nonmuslim alike) but then again that's history too. like the crusades. history. not to be proud of but history. we have to move on.

the point with the veil might go to you just because i don't live under a culture/religion which would require so. i will read further into that.

young men and women being together... they are young. let them experiment. give them a helping hand not forbidding rules.

true there are ignorant people all over the world. but as i said: ALL OVER. but not all of them so there is hope.

i might have been a little hasty with that conclusion about your point of view towards the quran. i sort of read it between the lines. but you just pointed out that you don't think it was written by man which again fortifies my conclusion.

about the poetry in the quran i know nothing because i don't speak arabic. more so poetry in any language is the hardest to understand.

many people leaving islam also state that they felt islam was violent. (not necessarily because they experienced war but as a conclusion after being taught islam in school.) also there are many women who complain they've been mistreated based on islamic teaching. (mistreatment of anybody based on any teaching is wrong. a woman is to be carried on your hands and not to be trodden upon with your feet.)

islam is even you say. why is it then that a woman's word in a court only counts half that of a man?

Cougar

could you give me an example of one of your prayers?

it seems like youd start saying the same things over and over five times a day.

just curious.

There are generally 5 prayers that are known by all Muslims, even the youngest:

Al-Fatiha (The Opening), An-Nas (The People), Al-Falaq (The day), Al-Ahad (The One), and Al-Kafirun (The Nonbelievers)

With the exception of Al-Fatiha, they are all located in the last (30th) chapter of the Quran--Al-Fatiha is the very first part. I think "Al-Kafirun" is an interesting one since it kinda stands in the face of those who swear Islam is nonconciliatory--remember, this is said in Arabic, not English:

Say: Oh non-believers:

I don't worship what you worship,

Nor do you worship that which I worship,

And I will not worship what you worship,

Nor will you worship what I worship,

To your religion be you, and to me mine.

In truth, there are 114 "surrahs" (passages in the Quran) that can be recited during prayer, ranging from very short,from two 'ayahs' (stanzas/lines) to hundreds of ayahs--and in each prayer, only 2 surrahs are recited, aside from Fatihah (which is recited for each "rakkah" of the prayer). People who have memorized the whole Quran are given the title "Hafiz," and are very respected. It's a real challenge to get to that point, so if you want to keep learning, you won't find yourself repeating the same prayers over and over again.

I agree with you, as do many other Muslims, that there should be proper guidance instead of strict and harsh rules when it comes to male/female interaction. However, this is strongly influenced by culture. In Pakistan for example, if a young man wants to get married he will say so to his parents--who will find him a selection of willing brides, of which he will pick one. In Egypt, a young man meets a young woman and when they go out, they are simply chaperoned--usually by a male relative of the young woman (a "Wali," as they say).

And as a result, premarital pregnancies are very rare in the Islamic world. I'd hardly say that's a bad. You see, experimenting is healthy, and a little bit of flirting/charm is acceptable. But left to their own means, we know what teenagers do. As the saying goes in Islam, "Whenever an unrelated man and woman are alone, their third companion is Shaitan (Satan)."

Again though, I feel for those people who have complained of abuse in the name of Islam. And that's a growing complaint of younger Muslims. The Quran says (in Al-Baqarah, the second "surrah") "There is no compulsion in religion." Applied to our lives, that means you can't force religion on anyone; and as we've seen, that leads people away from it. Teach, don't force. Thankfully, I had many good teachers and so I was not turned away from Islam.

I don't know where the mistreatment of women came about in some countries. Most likely, it's cultural nuances being incorporated into religion. I like to go by the Quran as my primary guide, putting culture and various philosophers aside. And according to the Quran, everyone should be given an education--girls and boys. Even according to Mohammad (P.B.U.H.), women are to be treated kindly. The Imam at my local mosque stated, "Women run the world. Men do the work, but society's collapse without the guidance of women." Yes, women are extremely important.

While they must protect their modesty, that should not relegate them to second-class status as has been done in some Muslim countries--that is something I am very much against.

However, the value of a woman's statement in the court is not something I have a good understanding of and so I will reserve my comments on that.

I am happy to say, as you will be happy to hear, that the new generation of Muslims looks to be very different. I get the feeling that they are not simply going to accept reactionary views anymore, but instead are willing to interpret, discuss, and debate. From what I've seen, there are 2 directions people go when they are upset with their religion today: they either leave it and criticize it, or they study further and find out what the problem is today. If more people chose the latter approach, the Middle East might well be the social, cultural, and technological center of the world again.



EDIT: I suppose the Arabic terminology might make what I said confusing, but bear with me http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif). sorry in advance ;-)

[This message has been edited by samosa_chem (edited 10-21-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Shiantar:

Here's a curious question I forgot to ask the first time around:

I understand that a lot of Muslims are upset with the way things are going (in the middle east, in Iraq, and elsewhere).

I also understand that there is a lot of injustice and violence going on in a lot of places in the world -- some of it being perpetuated by non-Muslims against Muslims, and some being perpetuated by Muslims against non-Muslims, etcetera.

I think that Muslims and non-Muslims alike are understandably upset and angry about being the victims of injustice and they also probably think that the world is going in a very bad direction right now.

One possible outcome is that this whole bloody mess ends up with at least one part of humankind wiped off the face of the earth. Depending on who you ask, that part might be Islam, it might be western civilization, it might be America, it might be Europe, it might be Israel, whatever ...

And it seems, on the whole, that the big conflict being shaped these days isn't nation against nation or hemisphere against hemisphere -- it really appears to be turning into Islam against everything else. Not that anybody really wants it to be -- it just is.

My question is this:

As a Muslim, can you think of anything that we can do to improve the situation on our end, and can you think of anything that you can do to improve the situation at your end, so that nothing in this world ends up getting destroyed.

Essentially, what I'm asking is: Is there any kind of compromise or negotiated settlement which would allow both the Islamic and non-Islamic parts of the world to live in peace and without fear of each other?

i think the old days were better when we used to kill infidels things were better i think the return to Jihad is the solution

when we stoped killing others crusades began and never stoped of course they have different names colonialism, freedom , democracy but it is still a crusade

quote:Originally posted by Shiantar:

I wasn't talking to you.

Then I suggest you use email... It has been known for other people to read and comment on public boards such as these...

quote:Originally posted by Lolita:

Oh, stop saying "we."

None of the Muslims I know think that way, and I think that it's abominable that you're giving this forum's members such a small-minded representation of Islam. Most of them don't know much about the religion as it is, and you're just making them feel justified in their condemnation of it.

If all I knew of Islam was what you just said (coupled with media reports), I'd be disgusted with it, too.

My closest Muslim friend (who is an imam, mind you) has no wish to convert me to Islam. In fact, he says he feels like he's "every religion at the same time." This is exactly the way I feel about religion, too, so we get along wonderfully.



most imams are now a bunch of cowards and hypocrites i fellow the tradition of Prophet mohammed imam Malik one of the major suni scholars said if i made an error fellow what the prophet said and forget imams and for a weird reason your "IMAM" friend want you to go to hell by the way i don't consider sufis or shias as real muslims they past most of their time praying graves and saint like catholics while GOD allah can be asked directly they are more polytheist than real muslims

and the shia 3ashuraa self mutilation is disgusting

quote:Originally posted by chinese_food52:

Wow, the maturity of Totse really came out in this thread, except for that one retard, princecharmant.

i said the truth i think that killing infidels as a revenge for crusades colonialism etc... is the purest form of justice

quote:Originally posted by princecharmant1980:

i think the old days were better when we used to kill infidels things were better i think the return to Jihad is the solution

when we stoped killing others crusades began and never stoped of course they have different names colonialism, freedom , democracy but it is still a crusade

So your answer is that there is no compromise possible, and that you believe that war is the only answer -- that all infidels should be marked for death.

I'm just checking to make sure I understand you correctly -- you don't believe any 'middle ground' exists?

quote:Originally posted by Axiom:

Then I suggest you use email... It has been known for other people to read and comment on public boards such as these...

Chill and be patient. I asked the question toward a particular person for a particular reason. It'll become readily apparent soon enough.

i know exactly what two teenagers do when they're all alone... http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

quote:"Whenever an unrelated man and woman are alone, their third companion is Shaitan (Satan)."

c'mon please... look at all those happy young couples holding hands, embracing each other (just embracing, for the sake of being close to their loved ones), looking into each other's eyes with 'the look'... if you say THAT'S shaitan's deed, i can't help you... haven't you ever felt that you just want to be close to someone? not sex, not kissing. just be with him/her... is that evil? no... the exact opposite...

now the marriage thing is another topic and i feel whoever wants to adhere to their culture should do so unhindered but if someone wants to do it in any other way they too should be allowed to do so. who am i to deny someone his/her personal happiness just because of my religious belief?

quote:"There is no compulsion in religion."

exactly my opinion. but there are others who think the world must be forcibly converted to islam. those people might be a minority but it's still... frightening.

may i ask you something? what do you think of people like princecharmant1980? i personally feel that he's either:

a) a troll.

or

b) a fundamentalist.

i also think that if he's b), he's not just a threat to the US/israel (or even the west as a whole?) but also to peaceful/moderate muslims by shedding a negative light on them. is there enough effort amongst the moderate to isolate the extremists?

quote:...While they must protect their modesty...

could you elaborate on that? what does: protecting their modesty mean?

i'm sure the thing about a woman's statement in court stand somewhere in -> there *points to quran* (though i don't know where... sorry)

quote:I get the feeling that they are not simply going to accept reactionary views anymore, but instead are willing to interpret, discuss, and debate.

you're right, i AM happy to hear that. also i'm happy to see you are one of them.

i think all religions need a refresh because they are simply based on old concepts which don't apply to the modern world anymore.

don't worry about the arabic terminology. it's about islam after all. as long as you give us a translation (or explanation when there's no one-to-one translation), i'm sure we all will be ready to 'bear with you'.

Cougar

As always, I oppose anyone who believes in war and killing. "Jihad" is much more complex than mere "holy war," and there are many different kinds of Jihad with only a small number being armed.

Indeed, Islam does need Jihad--or "struggling"--for its improvement. When Islam abandons Jihad, it abandons its dignity and it will begin to decay.

But people like princecharmant, if he's not a troll, are the kind of Muslims that upset me. The kind who like to bicker amongst themselves about all too frequently, trifling matters. The "Muslims" who believe they are engaged in a legitimate Jihad when they throw grenades into a Shia mosque; that is not what the Islamic world needs. It has enough external problems to fight amongst itself.

By the way, what do you mean by "moderate" Muslims? I don't like the terms "moderate" and "extremist" Muslims; they are more appropriately called "Westernists," "Islamists," and "Fascists," then there are all the Muslims in between. Islamist should not be confused with Fascist--the Fascists believe in killing/converting all non-Muslims, while Islamists are simply the conservative part of the Muslim Community (the "Umma"). The most notorious Westernist "Muslim" was Kemal Ataturk of Turkey (I put Muslim in quotation marks because he did not believe in God and he took measures to abolish religion in Turkey).

Of course, not all Muslims accept the policy of "no-compromise, Victory or Martyrdom!" That is more attributed to modern Fascistic Muslims, such as Sheikh Abdullah Azzam (now deceased). Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was not afraid to negotiate and make peace treaties, so I don't see why today's Muslims should be.

The problem today is that these compromising forces are facing a dilemma today--they acknowledge that the rest of the world is mistreating Muslims and to an extent, they agree with the Muslim reaction. But which side should they chose? Should they favor the foreign side or their Muslim brothers?

The culture and mindset of much of the Western World is as follows: you are family, co-townsmen, co-tribesmen, co-religionists, or strangers...and often, strangers are associated with enemies. So naturally, these moderates will keep silent and back their brothers--they're the kind of people who would say, "We can't change captains in the middle of a storm."

Now, the social issues. When I say "modesty," I basically mean covering up. I know we all like to see women in short skirts and tight blouses, but that's exactly why I think women should not wear such clothing--women should pick who they want to see their body, they should not simply display it. Women can be taken advantage of by strangers, and we hear cases about it all the time. So it is not too much to ask that they have a "Wali" with them when they are out in strange areas or at night. This should be abused or misconstrued as a system of oppression of women; it's a system of protecting women and in theory, makes them very respectable.

quote:c'mon please... look at all those happy young couples holding hands, embracing each other (just embracing, for the sake of being close to their loved ones), looking into each other's eyes with 'the look'... if you say THAT'S shaitan's deed, i can't help you... haven't you ever felt that you just want to be close to someone? not sex, not kissing. just be with him/her...

Yes, indeed--we have all felt an attraction towards the opposite sex! It's human nature, and Islam acknowledges that. Nothing is wrong with it--but it must be handled appropriately. I strongly disagree that young men and women should have free reign with each other, they should be checked. And this is why in the Muslim world, marriages occur at a younger age than in the Western world. They get married when they feel that attraction to the opposite sex, and when they are ready to do so. And for this reason, most Muslims at marriage are still virgins. So if you feel so strongly toward someone, perhaps it would be best to marry them and not delay.

But it is also worth noting that Islam has a very easy divorce system.

There are many negative aspects of the western boyfriend/girlfriend system, though. I think it involves too much experimenting, and it often becomes very intimate. The young girl (and girls are very susceptible to this) will think she's truly in love and will go all out with her guy because she believes they will be married. But a year later, there are some irreparable differences between them, and they break up. Where are they now? No longer virgins, they feel violated, they lose trust in others, and they may suffer mental illness. I've seen it happen.



Courtship is acceptable but it should be checked, especially with hormonal teenagers.

quote:Originally posted by Shiantar:

So your answer is that there is no compromise possible, and that you believe that war is the only answer -- that all infidels should be marked for death.

I'm just checking to make sure I understand you correctly -- you don't believe any 'middle ground' exists?



a compromise is too late a cultural and relligious war was started by the US and it's our right to retaliate

quote:Originally posted by princecharmant1980:

[QUOTE]

a compromise is too late a cultural and relligious war was started by the US and it's our right to retaliate



That's a reasonable answer, although one supposes that a religious war isn't necessarily a war of annihilation -- it might be stopped at some point. In any case, I was actually hoping to hear your opinion about the rest of the world.

I mean, the U.S. might be the immediate focus of Islamic anger but I meant to ask my previous question with regard to all non-Muslim entities in the rest of the world.

Will there be peace between the 'rest of the world' (including the U.S. or not, I don't particularly care which) and Islam or will this whole mess deteriorate until one side (or the other) gets destroyed.

EDIT: Spelling

[This message has been edited by Shiantar (edited 10-22-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by samosa_chem:

As always, I oppose anyone who believes in war and killing. "Jihad" is much more complex than mere "holy war," and there are many different kinds of Jihad with only a small number being armed.

Indeed, Islam does need Jihad--or "struggling"--for its improvement. When Islam abandons Jihad, it abandons its dignity and it will begin to decay.

i would appreciate if you could explain the (most exact possible) meaning of 'jihad' to me, please.

quote: But people like princecharmant, if he's not a troll, are the kind of Muslims that upset me. The kind who like to bicker amongst themselves about all too frequently, trifling matters. The "Muslims" who believe they are engaged in a legitimate Jihad when they throw grenades into a Shia mosque; that is not what the Islamic world needs. It has enough external problems to fight amongst itself.

who do you blame these external problems on?

quote: By the way, what do you mean by "moderate" Muslims? I don't like the terms "moderate" and "extremist" Muslims; they are more appropriately called "Westernists," "Islamists," and "Fascists," then there are all the Muslims in between.

i think what i call 'moderate' would be close to what you call 'western', and the 'extremists' would be 'fascists'.

quote: Islamist should not be confused with Fascist--the Fascists believe in killing/converting all non-Muslims, while Islamists are simply the conservative part of the Muslim Community (the "Umma"). The most notorious Westernist "Muslim" was Kemal Ataturk of Turkey (I put Muslim in quotation marks because he did not believe in God and he took measures to abolish religion in Turkey).

Of course, not all Muslims accept the policy of "no-compromise, Victory or Martyrdom!" That is more attributed to modern Fascistic Muslims, such as Sheikh Abdullah Azzam (now deceased). Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was not afraid to negotiate and make peace treaties, so I don't see why today's Muslims should be.

The problem today is that these compromising forces are facing a dilemma today--they acknowledge that the rest of the world is mistreating Muslims and to an extent, they agree with the Muslim reaction.

and many western people feel threatened by muslims. unfortunately i think i'm one of them. (but again i think it is mostly to blame on people like princecharmant1980.) yet many do NOT agree with the west's reaction.

you have up to now evaded to answer my question about muslim peace protestors. i'm sure you have seen on TV the millions of proterstors in the US and in europe? some of those flags are still waving here. was/is there anything similar in the muslim world?

quote: But which side should they chose? Should they favor the foreign side or their Muslim brothers?

The culture and mindset of much of the Western World is as follows: you are family, co-townsmen, co-tribesmen, co-religionists, or strangers...and often, strangers are associated with enemies. So naturally, these moderates will keep silent and back their brothers--they're the kind of people who would say, "We can't change captains in the middle of a storm."

fearing strangers is a thing common to ALL humans. it's a relict of ancient times where small groups of humans lived together and most strangers intended to remove the chief of the clan and themselves gain power. (like in today's animal societies: apes, wolves, etc.)

quote: Now, the social issues. When I say "modesty," I basically mean covering up. I know we all like to see women in short skirts and tight blouses, but that's exactly why I think women should not wear such clothing--women should pick who they want to see their body, they should not simply display it.

it's not that they are FORCED to wear short skirts and the like... they dress up like that or they dress different. there are so many dressing styles out there on the street...

quote: Women can be taken advantage of by strangers, and we hear cases about it all the time.

it's called rape. it's a crime. it happens all over the world. rapists should be put in jail for the rest of their natural life. period.

quote: So it is not too much to ask that they have a "Wali" with them when they are out in strange areas or at night.

we call it a brother. am myself one. may have mercy on the man doing harm to any of my loved ones.

quote:This should be abused or misconstrued as a system of oppression of women; it's a system of protecting women and in theory, makes them very respectable.

Yes, indeed--we have all felt an attraction towards the opposite sex! It's human nature, and Islam acknowledges that. Nothing is wrong with it--but it must be handled appropriately. I strongly disagree that young men and women should have free reign with each other, they should be checked. And this is why in the Muslim world, marriages occur at a younger age than in the Western world. They get married when they feel that attraction to the opposite sex, and when they are ready to do so. And for this reason, most Muslims at marriage are still virgins. So if you feel so strongly toward someone, perhaps it would be best to marry them and not delay.

But it is also worth noting that Islam has a very easy divorce system.

There are many negative aspects of the western boyfriend/girlfriend system, though. I think it involves [i]too much experimenting, and it often becomes very intimate. The young girl (and girls are very susceptible to this) will think she's truly in love and will go all out with her guy because she believes they will be married. But a year later, there are some irreparable differences between them, and they break up. Where are they now? No longer virgins, they feel violated, they lose trust in others, and they may suffer mental illness. I've seen it happen.



Courtship is acceptable but it should be checked, especially with hormonal teenagers.



i completely disagree with you. through their experience (which they choose to have or not) they learn to cherish values like mutual trust, deep love... you name it! you have the possibility to get to know your partner very well, before you marry. sometimes marriage also brings financial burdens which the couple simply couldn't bear! what if the society they live in doesn't allow them to marry because that 'wouldn't be appropriate' ?

princecharmant1980: it's people like you (on either side), who keep the spilling of blood going on and on. it's in YOUR hands to participate to end violence. if both sides state, 'the other side has to stop first!', there will never be peace. isn't peace what we all strive for?

Cougar

quote:Originally posted by princecharmant1980:

a compromise is too late a cultural and relligious war was started by the US and it's our right to retaliate

And it's your destiny to lose.

quote:Originally posted by samosa_chem:

It takes a special kind of dumbass to make such a comment, Snoopy.

The reason people have a problem with Islam today is that it's the opposite side of the same coin. Muslims do exactly what the West does, only directed back at them--so naturally, Westerners hate it.

I find it very ironic that Christian Conservatives in the US will talk about the virtues of keeping women at home, of being anti-abortion, of "liberating" others... But when Muslims say the same thing, the Christian Conservatives call them extremists.

Nevertheless, I'm not going to sit here and say Islam is a pacifist religion. It is peaceful, but not 100% pacifist. Islam does not say to invade and murder because it's fun. It says to make war only if war is made on you. Fight to defend yourself, never to subjugate. If a Muslim country is attacked, I'd say it's fair game that they fight back, don't you?

If Israeli troops send tanks and troops into a refugee camp, shouldn't the Palestinians defend their homes and families? If Jewish settlers assault farmers, destroy their crops, and poison their wells, why shouldn't the farmer's neighbors retalliate? When Jets violate a nation's airspace, why is it wrong for local militia and the army to fire Anti-Aircraft at it?

The world operates, whether you like to admit it or not, through right by might. The US, today, has the might and so it feels itself immune to any international law. Muslims, on the other hand, do not have much might, so they fight with whatever means they have; and what is taken by force is only regained by force.

And this is the reason I am anti-war. You cannot oppose just one side, because they are just doing what they feel is right. Instead you have to oppose the whole concept. If you don't like civilians being killed, then don't put them in harm's way by starting a war.

Now, Muslims and Muslim countries have almost unanimously condemned September 11th, and have done so repeatedly. Even the Taliban condemned it. How many more times do we have to do it? Do you want us to say "We condemn September 11th and we support George Bush, God Bless America" every day?

And finally, yes--Muslims are, in fact, a very admirable bunch. The religion is strict in terms of morality, but it is very reasonable too. The problems in Islam today arise from a lack of willingness to debate and discuss, and that's more an issue of dictatorial regimes who try to use the Qu'ran to justify their otherwise unjustifiable behavior. They will paint themselves as "Islamic States" so that anyone who opposes them is a "hypocrite" and an "apostate."

The problem with Americans is that most of them don't have brains, or at least a regard for anywhere beyond their state. They will never understand the subtleties to Islam.

Shut the fuck up you worthless inbred, subhuman piece of shit. Your ideas equal to a monkey picking ants out of an ant hive with a straw.

You and your fucked up religion can just get raped in the ass. You think your attempt at "logic" and "reason" will save you from looking like a total fucking retard? You, couldn't find logic and reason in a fucking dictionary you stupid piece of shit.

Islam is a failure. It stinks. I'm not saying that any other religion is any better. Au contraire. But islam needs to shut the fuck up and die like the miserable weak little shit it is. And by the look of things, it's doing quite a pretty fucking good job of it. All these angry pro-terrorist islamic youths here eat at McDonalds, wear Nike, drive their cars with American gas which passed through islamic blood first, etc, etc. That's like getting down on their knees and taking cumshots from a pack of kikes. Way to fucking get raped by our culture you weak pieces of shit.

And for every extremist, thousands of other muslims (preferably women and children under 14) will suffer. I love how history repeats itself. I love how I always end up at the giving end. Man, failing so much, I wonder how you worthless bag of uselessness don't just give up and die.

I fucking love myself. I'm at least 17 times bigger than allah.

Snoopy, have you ever heard the saying, "It's better to do stay quiet and have people think you are ignorant than to open your mouth and remove any uncertainty?"

You, snoopy, just did the latter. Unplug your computer, sit down to a nice bowl of brown, slit your wrists, and shut up. You seem to be the source of immaturity on totse.

You can claim you are "17 times bigger than Allah," but I have doubts you are any older than 17.

It doesn't really matter. The Muslims are the luckiest damn people alive. They'll be the first group of people in the world to get Liberty without havnig to earn it, or even want it, in history. They kill us, we give them freedom. Personally, I would have started reducing our nuclear arsenal. Islam is a disgusting religion.

On Saudi Television, Clerics were teaching men how to beat their wives correctly and in accordance with the Koran. They treat women like shit - even though Muhammad was a huge fan of women (very much like Jesus actually). I don't know - if the Muslims want to kill Americans, fine. Lets war. We'll pound them back into the desert and then go back to bitching about our economy.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

Shut the fuck up you worthless inbred, subhuman piece of shit. Your ideas equal to a monkey picking ants out of an ant hive with a straw.

You and your fucked up religion can just get raped in the ass. You think your attempt at "logic" and "reason" will save you from looking like a total fucking retard? You, couldn't find logic and reason in a fucking dictionary you stupid piece of shit.

Islam is a failure. It stinks. I'm not saying that any other religion is any better. Au contraire. But islam needs to shut the fuck up and die like the miserable weak little shit it is. And by the look of things, it's doing quite a pretty fucking good job of it. All these angry pro-terrorist islamic youths here eat at McDonalds, wear Nike, drive their cars with American gas which passed through islamic blood first, etc, etc. That's like getting down on their knees and taking cumshots from a pack of kikes. Way to fucking get raped by our culture you weak pieces of shit.

And for every extremist, thousands of other muslims (preferably women and children under 14) will suffer. I love how history repeats itself. I love how I always end up at the giving end. Man, failing so much, I wonder how you worthless bag of uselessness don't just give up and die.

I fucking love myself. I'm at least 17 times bigger than allah.

Snoopy, you're even worse than I thought. You have no reason to hate Islam, yet you rant on about how Islam is "gay" and should "get raped in the ass". Why does everyone see homosexuality as a bad thing?

AS for the Muslims eating McDonalds and wearing Nike shoes, does that mean that Islamic culture is void and null? Just becuase a few Muslims wish to wear Nike and eat fast food doesn't mean that Islamic culture has collapsed. It's called adaption, fuckwit.

Where fucking else are they meant to get petrol from?

I really don't see why you hate Islam so much, snoopy. It's never done anything to you.

How the fuck DID you become a mod? I would have banned your IP after your fourth post.

As for being at the giving end, how are you contributing to society? When's the last time you gave more than 50 cents to charity? Muslims give at least 2.5% (maybe 5%, I'm not sure) to charity, they stil contribute one fuck of a lot more to the community and society in general than you ever will.

I think samosa_chem was very logical and reasonable in his posts, I never saw one flaw in his statements (arguments, I don't know...).

Face it, snoopy, you're not 17 times greater than Allah(SWT), 12 times greater than Allah(SWT), or even comparable to Him for that matter. You're not funny, even if you do think you are. You are, however, VERY, very annoying.

I suggest you go to Iraq, and say exactly what you typed during prayer. You wouldn't last after 2 1/2 lines. Fuck, just because you have the Right To Free Speech doesn't mean that you have to use it at every oppurtunity. I'm all for free speech, fuck censorship and all that, but it's people like you that SHOULD be censored.

Contribute to society, learn to use grammar correctly, then come back and don't mindlessly flame. </rant>

Stoyve

Stoyve

ye man samosa chem speaks the truth. so shut it snoopy

quote:Originally posted by Sempre Solipsist:

The Muslims are the luckiest damn people alive. They'll be the first group of people in the world to get Liberty without havnig to earn it, or even want it, in history. They kill us, we give them freedom.

Iraqi's didn't kill your people. Saudi Arabs did. And you don't see George Bush waging war with them do you?... No, of course not because Saudi princes sit on the boards of all American oil companies... Including Bush's two failed company's and his dad's current company...

Now, no country has ever got democracy without revolution, so if you think you're GIVING them something you're mistaken... You've got to want democracy, its not something that can be handed out like candy...

The fact is if Iraqi's rolled tanks down my street, backed up with 180 thousand troops from Iraq alone, I'd be the first to pick up a gun and rebel... Taking as many hostages as I can, you better believe it... I don't like my Prime Minister, but I’ll be fucked if some Iraqi came to liberate my people by dropping bombs in my city...

Now image if Iraq did that to you and arrested George Bush; even if you hate him, you wouldn't want Saddam Hussein arresting him and putting him on trial...

Wake up to yourself, You posses the weapons of mass destruction and are the only nation in history to use them on people during war… Iraq as our enemy has a right to resist any invasion period… Just like you or I would do the same if the situation was reversed... That is the nature of War...



[This message has been edited by Axiom (edited 10-23-2004).]

I love you lolita.

You fascinate me as a person, I just think I connect with your interests and world views.

Social, your my boo too.

Hey, worthless pieces of shits. Shut the fuck up and stop posting. I will shoot any human being in its useless head before I accept their shitty opinions. You are wrong, and I am right. Your mother got raped and is dead. Face facts and fucking join the slut bitch.

[This message has been edited by Snoopy (edited 10-23-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by 5 7 0 Y V 3:

Snoopy, you're even worse than I thought. You have no reason to hate Islam, yet you rant on about how Islam is "gay" and should "get raped in the ass". Why does everyone see homosexuality as a bad thing?

AS for the Muslims eating McDonalds and wearing Nike shoes, does that mean that Islamic culture is void and null? Just becuase a few Muslims wish to wear Nike and eat fast food doesn't mean that Islamic culture has collapsed. It's called adaption, fuckwit.

Where fucking else are they meant to get petrol from?

I really don't see why you hate Islam so much, snoopy. It's never done anything to you.

How the fuck DID you become a mod? I would have banned your IP after your fourth post.

As for being at the giving end, how are you contributing to society? When's the last time you gave more than 50 cents to charity? Muslims give at least 2.5% (maybe 5%, I'm not sure) to charity, they stil contribute one fuck of a lot more to the community and society in general than you ever will.

I think samosa_chem was very logical and reasonable in his posts, I never saw one flaw in his statements (arguments, I don't know...).

Face it, snoopy, you're not 17 times greater than Allah(SWT), 12 times greater than Allah(SWT), or even comparable to Him for that matter. You're not funny, even if you do think you are. You are, however, VERY, very annoying.

I suggest you go to Iraq, and say exactly what you typed during prayer. You wouldn't last after 2 1/2 lines. Fuck, just because you have the Right To Free Speech doesn't mean that you have to use it at every oppurtunity. I'm all for free speech, fuck censorship and all that, but it's people like you that SHOULD be censored.

Contribute to society, learn to use grammar correctly, then come back and don't mindlessly flame. </rant>

Stoyve

Stoyve

You need to die. I really wish I was in the position to shoot you right now. Thought like that poisons weak human minds and creates idiocy and chaos.

Your reason, is none.

Your logic, is void.

Your though, is zero.

You understand nothing.

Your believes are irrelevant.

The only thing left for you to do is die and rot. And if you have any offsprings, I will fucking kill them before they reach the age of ten. That's the best thing they deserve in life.

Bitch tried to censor me,... Bitch lost the right to speak. See if you can converse on this forum again.

Yes, the United States is not worried about OUR nukes or if we'll use them, it isn't like we are going to Nuke ourselves.

The United States, like other nations, does what is in its best interest to do. What is in our best interest is freedom and wealth in the middle east and an end to violent and fanataical Islam. When there are nukes around those people, it makes us nervous, so instead of just dropping bombs, we are trying to establish democracies with good economies in the Middle East, in the hope that were there is Freedom, there is Wealth and were there is Wealth, there will be peace.

I understand that many disagree that Wealth creates peace, but it certainly encourages peace; so that is not to say there is NO violence in free and wealthy societies, it is just to say that there is less violence.

What is happening in the Sudan would never happen in free, wealthy societies. All the United States wants from the world is for them to be productive and peaceful; and as the world's leading SuperPower, it really is in everyone's best interest to obstain from attacking us...look at what we did to the Iraqi government. They didn't even attack us and now they are history.

I'm not sure why people don't want wealth and freedom (a majority of people in the states are actually moving away from this desire)... I just can't imagine wanting Religion and Government to control my life. Religion and Government cause way too much intolerance, violence, nonsense and other "ence's".

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

And it's your destiny to lose.

rendez vous in 30 years

quote:All these angry pro-terrorist islamic youths here eat at McDonalds, wear Nike, drive their cars with American gas which passed through islamic blood first, etc, etc.



Oh snoopy, you have forgotten an all-important fact. Who runs/manages/owns the gas stations in the United States? Yep, you guessed it--Pakistanis, Indians, and Arabs. So by buying gas, we help Muslims twice: first, the petroleum is bought from the Arab countries, second we pump it and give our money to the Muslim gas station owner. "Thankyou, come again."

Now Snoopy, when you're a little older, you can join the big boys' discussion. In the mean time, you should study hard in your english class and learn to present an argument because your insistence that everything is in some homosexual conspiracy just isn't cutting it. Don't make us give you the silent treatment.



That little distraction aside, back on topic. The Muslim world wants nothing more than freedom, but freedom does not come on a tank or a B1 bomber. Those are tools of death and subjugation. Iraqis and Muslims the world over are happy that Saddam Hussein has been removed (with the exception of some fascists within Iraq--but their motivation is not Islam), but they want their country back. Prime Minister Ayad Allawi is not a symbol of freedom, he is a symbol of repression: allying with foreign forces to assault his own people. According to the Qur'an, "Repression is worse than murder."

However, from my own observations, I've noticed that Muslims have very different values than we are used to. I find that many are indifferent to democracy/republics as we are used to them--they don't accept "rule by the people." Instead, they prefer "rule by the experienced," or "Shurah" as they call it; in effect, it is enlightened despotism. And as Machiavelli said, as long as the leader does not infringe on his people's respect and pride, he will be loved. And this is why the people of Tikrit, Fallujah, and Ramadi loved Saddam--he gave them a feeling of pride. But the Shias and Kurds hated him because of his repression and brutality.

There is no separation of religion and government in Islam. That doesn't mean that all Islamic states have to be totalitarian; remember: "There is no compulsion in religion..." The way I envision an Islamic State, a "virtuous" path is strongly encouraged and taught to children in primary school (together with the other basic necessities in education), while those that are "wrong" are made socially unacceptable...but never really forced. When you start arresting people for cutting their beards or showing their hair, not only is that a strain on the police forces but it also alienates the population, ultimately leading to instability.

But such separation of church and state is really a western idea, and attempts to incorporate western ideas into Muslims countries seems to be the source of their current weakness. Consider Turkey and Kemal Ataturk, who vowed to "modernize" and "westernize" Turkey. This included a system of Turkish ultra-nationalism, which alienated his Arab and Kurdish subjects and ultimately destroyed the Ottoman Empire, inviting greedy British and French colonial forces to divvy up his loss. What has become of Turkey? It is a Republic in name, but is effectively ruled by the military.

Saddam Hussein tried to incorporate Nazi and Stalinist ideals into the Ba'ath Party. Instead, he led Iraq into two costly and gainless wars and turned his nation into a pariah state.

Pakistan is trying to become another Turkey now, "modernizing" and "westernizing." Pakistan was founded as an Islamic country--as a refuge for Muslims in the subcontinent, as "The Land of the Pure." As such, its westernizing is again alienating those who stand for the original ideals; e.g.: those in the North-West Frontier Province. So what does the government do? Send in the troops against their own people!

No, the Muslim world does not need to Westernize. They need to return to their own philosophies. Attempts to bring in the West have only led to failure, why not try something different?

quote:Originally posted by Shiantar:

That's a reasonable answer, although one supposes that a religious war isn't necessarily a war of annihilation -- it might be stopped at some point. In any case, I was actually hoping to hear your opinion about the rest of the world.

I mean, the U.S. might be the immediate focus of Islamic anger but I meant to ask my previous question with regard to all non-Muslim entities in the rest of the world.

Will there be peace between the 'rest of the world' (including the U.S. or not, I don't particularly care which) and Islam or will this whole mess deteriorate until one side (or the other) gets destroyed.

EDIT: Spelling

[This message has been edited by Shiantar (edited 10-22-2004).]

well islam could make a TEMPORARY peace with others if it can't invade them a possible peace with china due to balance of powers after the comming US collapsr would be possible for political reasons but it will not last by the way i think that the US is making a great mistake i'm already seing china as the comming superpower china is improving every day in all fields US is even selling it's nuclear technologie to china to have it's support for war on terror i think that this war on terror is a very dumb thing

US is fighting a mirrage a culture of Jihad and fight a decentralised state while their real immediate enemy is gathering more power everyday

to other posters yes i'm a fundamentalist and i'm proud i returned to the foundations of Islam loving muslims and hating kafirs (infidels) and their supporters

You call yourself a fundamentalist, princecharmant, but I would call you a fascist. Hatred of non-believers is NOT part of Islam. If I'm mistaken, please show me some Quranic verses or Sunna (to those who don't know, this is "The way of the Prophet," so "Sunnis" = "followers of the Prophet") that say otherwise.

I know many fundamentalist Muslims, but they never encourage violence and wholesale murder--they simply encourage self-defense. Unless you know better than the Qu'ran, which fundamentalists (and all Muslims, for that matter) believe was given by God, then the murder of women, children, the elderly, and the unarmed is unjustifiable. "If you kill one, it is as if you killed everyone in the world."

Fundamentalism and Extremism are very different. You're right, Fundamentalism means to go back to what the basic sources of Islamic knowledge say. Extremism is to take them to an extreme (e.g.: "covering up" becomes wearing a Burqa and staying inside).

Sorry, Cougar, I completely missed your last post at first... To answer your question, I have heard of Muslim peace activists. In the United States, many of my Muslim friends attended every anti-war (that is, anti Iraq war) demonstration. In Pakistan, thousands of people marched against the Pakistani Army operation in Waziristan. Also, many Pakistanis protested against the US invasion of Afghanistan. Egyptians regularly march against Israeli operations against the Palestinians, when they are not suppressed by the government. I guess this can be interpreted as Muslims simply supporting their side... But hey, they protest against war http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif).

I also had a bad typo in one of my posts, saying something to the effect of "Women should be abused..;" very sorry about that, it should have been, "Women should NOT be abused."

quote:Originally posted by princecharmant1980:

to other posters yes i'm a fundamentalist and i'm proud i returned to the foundations of Islam loving muslims and hating kafirs (infidels) and their supporters



What is your address?

quote:Originally posted by Sempre Solipsist:

Yes, the United States is not worried about OUR nukes or if we'll use them, it isn't like we are going to Nuke ourselves.

The United States, like other nations, does what is in its best interest to do. What is in our best interest is freedom and wealth in the middle east and an end to violent and fanataical Islam. When there are nukes around those people, it makes us nervous, so instead of just dropping bombs, we are trying to establish democracies with good economies in the Middle East, in the hope that were there is Freedom, there is Wealth and were there is Wealth, there will be peace.

I understand that many disagree that Wealth creates peace, but it certainly encourages peace; so that is not to say there is NO violence in free and wealthy societies, it is just to say that there is less violence.

What is happening in the Sudan would never happen in free, wealthy societies. All the United States wants from the world is for them to be productive and peaceful; and as the world's leading SuperPower, it really is in everyone's best interest to obstain from attacking us...look at what we did to the Iraqi government. They didn't even attack us and now they are history.

I'm not sure why people don't want wealth and freedom (a majority of people in the states are actually moving away from this desire)... I just can't imagine wanting Religion and Government to control my life. Religion and Government cause way too much intolerance, violence, nonsense and other "ence's".

So ONLY the US is allowed Nuclear Arms? That doesn't make me feel any safer... There'd be less wars if Everyone had Nuclear capabilities because everyone would be too scared to piss each other off...

Now, with regards to "Wealth" and "Good Economies" Iraq has the second biggest oil resources known on earth... They'd have enormous wealth and did have a huge economy before the 15 odd years of US sanctions that didn't allow it to sell it to anyone in the world...

Their economy would be as stable as Saudi Arabia's. You force a close on their economy, make their resources WORTHLESS to them, then return once the countries fucked claiming that "wealth" with give them stability...

The first step to freemdom would be to abolish the sanctions, but its American companies drilling these reserves right now, I fail to see your point that you're helping these people...

I'm probably much older than most of you. It's fucking amazing how stupid the lot of you are, where you can't even see what I'm doing in this thread.

Maybe you just ought to stop posting.

quote:Originally posted by princecharmant1980:

to other posters yes i'm a fundamentalist and i'm proud i returned to the foundations of Islam loving muslims and hating kafirs (infidels) and their supporters

Doesn't matter. I remember you when you were a junkie and ate pork. You'll go to hell anyway, just like all of us. INFIDEL!

quote:Originally posted by princecharmant1980:

well islam could make a TEMPORARY peace with others if it can't invade them a possible peace with china due to balance of powers after the comming US collapsr would be possible for political reasons but it will not last by the way i think that the US is making a great mistake i'm already seing china as the comming superpower china is improving every day in all fields US is even selling it's nuclear technologie to china to have it's support for war on terror i think that this war on terror is a very dumb thing

US is fighting a mirrage a culture of Jihad and fight a decentralised state while their real immediate enemy is gathering more power everyday

Okay -- here comes the point I was going to make earlier, although I wanted to be more certain of your position regarding certain points.

There are undoubtedly a lot of Muslims who believe the same way that you believe, Prince -- that America is evil and that Israel must be wiped off the face of the earth, and that any injustice against the faithful must be met with violent resistance and the eventual destruction of the aggressors.

Even worse, there are undoubtedly a lot of Muslims who also believe that any kaafirs are fair game for assimilation or death. These people don't care about universal human rights or cultural exchange or freedom of religion -- in their minds, as long as non-Islamic influence exists, it is an injustice against the faithful and jihad must continue until Islam controls the entire world.

And this is about the point where I think to myself, "This is about the saddest situation imaginable." You see, despite the fact that I have issues with the western way of life, and that I have issues with the American administration and its policies, and that I even have issues with how Canada, my home, does things, I cannot think of anything ... anything which would justify allowing Islam to take over the whole world.

Even if non-Islamic governments were to band together and fight the militant extremists among Muslims, this would undoubtedly cause the more moderate or liberal Muslims to take up arms in defense of their brothers. And that leaves us nothing but one side against the other, forever, until one side is totally destroyed.

But I don't want that. There's nothing in my system of beliefs that warrants the total destruction of one religion. The world is a lesser place if even one of its parts, however radical, is lost. And humankind dies a little bit each time one man, however radical, dies when he doesn't have to.

But then again, I can't be entirely sure that if the non-Muslims fought the Muslims to a stalemate, that the extremists wouldn't just sue for peace, take the time to re-group and re-arm, and one day start the war again.

(I'm reminded of the seventh chapter of the Qu'ran, verses 10 to 17 -- wherein Iblis was cast down. It goes something like this:

"We created Man to have dominion over everything on the Earth. Allah commanded everything, including the angels, to bow down to Adam, and they did, save for one creature, Iblis. And Allah asked him, "Why did thou not prostrate thy self?" And Iblis replied, "I am better than he [Adam], for I was made from fire, and he from mud."

And so Allah said, "Go!, you meanest of creatures."

Iblis replied "Will you grant me reprieve until [the day of Judgement]?" And Allah replied, "Yes."

Iblis retorted by saying, "Because you have granted me this reprieve, I will beset upon Adam and his kind from all sides, so that they will not even feel gratitude toward You.")

Is this what we have to look forward to? A total war, wherein peace is only temporary and annihilation is the only eventual outcome?

You see, I don't want my sons to have to grow their beards long if they don't want to. I don't want my daughters to be covered by the bourka, and to have their word count as half of a man's word. I don't want any of my children to live in a world where thievery is punished by amputation rather than rehabilitation. I don't want my children to have to conceal their love for other people because of someone's concerns about modesty and propriety. I don't want my children to live in fear of a moral police where their tiniest actions are scrutinized for their compliance with someone else's grand scheme.

I want my children to live in a world where there is peace, tolerance, freedom, and respect for the differences that make each of us unique.

I'm sorry, Prince, but the way you describe things -- I don't like the idea of killing other people but your ideas and the people who embrace them may put me in the position of having to kill to protect the way of life that I prefer over Islam. If that's wrong, according to your standards, then that's wrong -- according to your standards.

But the ideology you're professing will put the blood of millions on either your hands or mine. I don't want that -- either which way.

The fundamental principle by which I live is this: "Live and let live." I have no problem with Islam so long as I feel safe and free without fear of it.

You can keep your beliefs of superiority and your place in the grand scheme of Allah so long as you don't act on them in my neighbourhood. Don't try to intrude on my rights or those of my countrymen.

And if I catch you or any of your militant kin using our peace and good intentions and our interpretations of human rights to mount a campaign of subversion or aggression behind our backs, make no mistake about how quickly I will bring that fight back to your doorstep.

We westerners may be secular, but that doesn't mean we don't know how to protect what we believe in.

EDIT: Spelling & UBB tags

[This message has been edited by Shiantar (edited 10-24-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

You need to die. I really wish I was in the position to shoot you right now. Thought like that poisons weak human minds and creates idiocy and chaos.

Your reason, is none.

Your logic, is void.

Your though, is zero.

You understand nothing.

Your believes are irrelevant.

The only thing left for you to do is die and rot. And if you have any offsprings, I will fucking kill them before they reach the age of ten. That's the best thing they deserve in life.

Bless.

So far I am to see one of your posts that will make me laugh, have logic/reasoning/tolerance for human beings other than yourself, or even basic grammar (apostraphes hardly being your forte). Using fuck, shit or rape for every third word isn't going to scare me, or intimidate me. There's nothing you can do. You can't ban me, so I really couldn't give two shits and a fuck about what you think.

I never said that my beliefs (you failed to spell that correctly, also) were relevant, as not everybody agress with them (especially you). However, most people in the Middle-East agree with at least some of what I said, so they can at least contribute some part in this "debate". I understand quite a bit, or at least a fuck of a lot more than you seem to about middle-eastern politics.

So far, even though you claimed to contributed a lot more to this discussion (debate?) than anybody else, branding everyone but yourself "stupid". All you have done is insult and maime within this topic, and probably everywhere else you've posted, occasionally trying to be funny, but always failing, like a <insert metaphore here>.

Your powers as mod are almost none, and LostCause isn't stupid enough to listen to you. Don't post unless you have something sensible and relevant to post. So far none of your posts have met that criteria...

Stoyve

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

Doesn't matter. I remember you when you were a junkie and ate pork. You'll go to hell anyway, just like all of us. INFIDEL!

I used to eat pork before I converted. Does that make me an "infidel"? He's a Muslim now (if a bit too radical and fundamentalist...), and that's what matters. Mohammed (PBUH) smoked weed, so that's irrelevant.

I still stand by what I said before. You are an immature cuntbag, and age really doesn't affect the relevance of one's posts.

Stoyve

You converted? You're subhuman.

quote:Originally posted by samosa_chem:



Sorry, Cougar, I completely missed your last post at first... To answer your question, I have heard of Muslim peace activists. In the United States, many of my Muslim friends attended every anti-war (that is, anti Iraq war) demonstration. In Pakistan, thousands of people marched against the Pakistani Army operation in Waziristan. Also, many Pakistanis protested against the US invasion of Afghanistan. Egyptians regularly march against Israeli operations against the Palestinians, when they are not suppressed by the government. I guess this can be interpreted as Muslims simply supporting their side... But hey, they protest against war http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif).

I also had a bad typo in one of my posts, saying something to the effect of "Women should be abused..;" very sorry about that, it should have been, "Women should NOT be abused."

yeah, i already thought, that it must be a typo.

ahm... with all due respect for those peace protesters (and they deserve a lot for standing up for peace!): i actually meant whether they marched against fascist-muslim violence against the west?

for the future it might be better just to ignore certain posts in this thread. that would make this debate quite decent because we do have some people here who would like it to be so.

quote:Originally posted by Shiantar:



Okay -- here comes the point I was going to make earlier, although I wanted to be more certain of your position regarding certain points.

...

[your whole post]

...

We westerners may be secular, but that doesn't mean we don't know how to protect what we believe in.

EDIT: Spelling & UBB tags

[This message has been edited by Shiantar (edited 10-24-2004).]



well put (bows...) but i'd like to stress, that the same applies to muslims who want to live in the west: you shouldn't have to be afraid to pray your way, dress the way you want, girls should be allowed to wear a headscarf, couples can have a 'wali' to watch them (but only if they want), etc...

it all boils down to: you're very welcome, as long as you don't try to force anything upon us or try to destroy our way of life.

same rights and duties for ALL!

quote:Originally posted by 5 7 0 Y V 3:



...

Mohammed (PBUH) smoked weed, so that's irrelevant.

...



THAT would explain some things...

Cougar

quote:Originally posted by samosa_chem:

You call yourself a fundamentalist, princecharmant, but I would call you a fascist. Hatred of non-believers is NOT part of Islam. If I'm mistaken, please show me some Quranic verses or Sunna (to those who don't know, this is "The way of the Prophet," so "Sunnis" = "followers of the Prophet") that say otherwise.

I know many fundamentalist Muslims, but they never encourage violence and wholesale murder--they simply encourage self-defense. Unless you know better than the Qu'ran, which fundamentalists (and all Muslims, for that matter) believe was given by God, then the murder of women, children, the elderly, and the unarmed is unjustifiable. "If you kill one, it is as if you killed everyone in the world."

Fundamentalism and Extremism are very different. You're right, Fundamentalism means to go back to what the basic sources of Islamic knowledge say. Extremism is to take them to an extreme (e.g.: "covering up" becomes wearing a Burqa and staying inside).

Sorry, Cougar, I completely missed your last post at first... To answer your question, I have heard of Muslim peace activists. In the United States, many of my Muslim friends attended every anti-war (that is, anti Iraq war) demonstration. In Pakistan, thousands of people marched against the Pakistani Army operation in Waziristan. Also, many Pakistanis protested against the US invasion of Afghanistan. Egyptians regularly march against Israeli operations against the Palestinians, when they are not suppressed by the government. I guess this can be interpreted as Muslims simply supporting their side... But hey, they protest against war http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif).

I also had a bad typo in one of my posts, saying something to the effect of "Women should be abused..;" very sorry about that, it should have been, "Women should NOT be abused."

if you speak arabic then i will flood you with relligious evidence about what you call terrorism

one simple example check the TAfsir of the "ABASSA WA TAWALA " verse to see howmuch allah loves infidels and their real value

another Hadeeth says

"an infidel and his killer will not stay together in hell"

the only exception of respecting infidels right is the Dhima statu that means that a powerfull muslim country granted the dhimi status to their non muslims residents they will have the same rights as muslims but they should pay jizya tax

quote:Originally posted by Sempre Solipsist:



What is your address?

cave n° 2 torabora afghanistan phone number not working due to american bombings

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

Doesn't matter. I remember you when you were a junkie and ate pork. You'll go to hell anyway, just like all of us. INFIDEL!

i never ate pork i tried other Junki things i admit and binladen fucked some infidel girls during his youth so what

look snoopy i know that you like to hear people saying oh snoopy your right and you don't like who has a different POV

if i say "I AGREE WITH YOU SNOOPY WE ARE JERKS " then will you fuck off?

quote:if you speak arabic then i will flood you with relligious evidence about what you call terrorism

I admit, I am no scholar of Islam...and my understanding of Arabic is very slim. But please, present your evidence and translate to English as much as possible http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) . I have not described anything as "terrorism" yet, by the way, because "terrorism" is a very subjective term.

quote:Originally posted by princecharmant1980:

...

the only exception of respecting infidels right is the Dhima statu that means that a powerfull muslim country granted the dhimi status to their non muslims residents they will have the same rights as muslims but they should pay jizya tax



so the 'jizya' is a tax that only non muslims have to pay in order to... well, what do the non muslims get in return for paying the taxes?

Cougar

quote:Originally posted by princecharmant1980:

cave n° 2 torabora afghanistan phone number not working due to american bombings



lmao Excellent answer. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by samosa_chem:

I admit, I am no scholar of Islam...and my understanding of Arabic is very slim. But please, present your evidence and translate to English as much as possible http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) . I have not described anything as "terrorism" yet, by the way, because "terrorism" is a very subjective term.

i'll galdly do it but it will take some time

quote:Originally posted by Shiantar:

Okay -- here comes the point I was going to make earlier, although I wanted to be more certain of your position regarding certain points.

There are undoubtedly a lot of Muslims who believe the same way that you believe, Prince -- that America is evil and that Israel must be wiped off the face of the earth, and that any injustice against the faithful must be met with violent resistance and the eventual destruction of the aggressors.

Even worse, there are undoubtedly a lot of Muslims who also believe that any kaafirs are fair game for assimilation or death. These people don't care about universal human rights or cultural exchange or freedom of religion -- in their minds, as long as non-Islamic influence exists, it is an injustice against the faithful and jihad must continue until Islam controls the entire world.

And this is about the point where I think to myself, "This is about the saddest situation imaginable." You see, despite the fact that I have issues with the western way of life, and that I have issues with the American administration and its policies, and that I even have issues with how Canada, my home, does things, I cannot think of anything ... anything which would justify allowing Islam to take over the whole world.

Even if non-Islamic governments were to band together and fight the militant extremists among Muslims, this would undoubtedly cause the more moderate or liberal Muslims to take up arms in defense of their brothers. And that leaves us nothing but one side against the other, forever, until one side is totally destroyed.

But I don't want that. There's nothing in my system of beliefs that warrants the total destruction of one religion. The world is a lesser place if even one of its parts, however radical, is lost. And humankind dies a little bit each time one man, however radical, dies when he doesn't have to.

But then again, I can't be entirely sure that if the non-Muslims fought the Muslims to a stalemate, that the extremists wouldn't just sue for peace, take the time to re-group and re-arm, and one day start the war again.

(I'm reminded of the seventh chapter of the Qu'ran, verses 10 to 17 -- wherein Iblis was cast down. It goes something like this:

"We created Man to have dominion over everything on the Earth. Allah commanded everything, including the angels, to bow down to Adam, and they did, save for one creature, Iblis. And Allah asked him, "Why did thou not prostrate thy self?" And Iblis replied, "I am better than he [Adam], for I was made from fire, and he from mud."

And so Allah said, "Go!, you meanest of creatures."

Iblis replied "Will you grant me reprieve until [the day of Judgement]?" And Allah replied, "Yes."

Iblis retorted by saying, "Because you have granted me this reprieve, I will beset upon Adam and his kind from all sides, so that they will not even feel gratitude toward You.")

Is this what we have to look forward to? A total war, wherein peace is only temporary and annihilation is the only eventual outcome?

You see, I don't want my sons to have to grow their beards long if they don't want to. I don't want my daughters to be covered by the bourka, and to have their word count as half of a man's word. I don't want any of my children to live in a world where thievery is punished by amputation rather than rehabilitation. I don't want my children to have to conceal their love for other people because of someone's concerns about modesty and propriety. I don't want my children to live in fear of a moral police where their tiniest actions are scrutinized for their compliance with someone else's grand scheme.

I want my children to live in a world where there is peace, tolerance, freedom, and respect for the differences that make each of us unique.

I'm sorry, Prince, but the way you describe things -- I don't like the idea of killing other people but your ideas and the people who embrace them may put me in the position of having to kill to protect the way of life that I prefer over Islam. If that's wrong, according to your standards, then that's wrong -- according to your standards.

But the ideology you're professing will put the blood of millions on either your hands or mine. I don't want that -- either which way.

The fundamental principle by which I live is this: "Live and let live." I have no problem with Islam so long as I feel safe and free without fear of it.

You can keep your beliefs of superiority and your place in the grand scheme of Allah so long as you don't act on them in my neighbourhood. Don't try to intrude on my rights or those of my countrymen.

And if I catch you or any of your militant kin using our peace and good intentions and our interpretations of human rights to mount a campaign of subversion or aggression behind our backs, make no mistake about how quickly I will bring that fight back to your doorstep.

We westerners may be secular, but that doesn't mean we don't know how to protect what we believe in.

EDIT: Spelling & UBB tags

[This message has been edited by Shiantar (edited 10-24-2004).]



to resume it all when Islam abondonned it's role of leader the world went corrupt and globalisation will make it worse every one knows that the US is leading the world to chaos but no one wana do something about it

of course we will not stay without doing anything about it so if we succeed then we have the right to lead because we saved the world and frankly i don't believe in WESTERN HUMAN rights and standards the only reference i have is Islamic Human Rights and world would be a better place if humans fellowed their moral principles it's really hypocrite when american repunlicans talk about the virtues of women staying at home to raise children or white nationalist do it no one describe them as narrow minded but when muslims says the same thing they are backward teorririst and so on as for your children this is just a litle example i think the world will be better if Islam rules because it will not be an hypocrite world

quote:Originally posted by Cougar:

so the 'jizya' is a tax that only non muslims have to pay in order to... well, what do the non muslims get in return for paying the taxes?

Cougar

protection

quote:so the 'jizya' is a tax that only non muslims have to pay in order to... well, what do the non muslims get in return for paying the taxes?

Cougar

In return for paying this head tax, they are allowed to live under the protection of an Islamic state and are given equal rights (i.e.: no segregation). I guess this had more significance when people wanted to live in Muslim countries because they were centers of culture and leaders of thought and also had powerful armies http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif).

quote:Originally posted by samosa_chem:

In return for paying this head tax, they are allowed to live under the protection of an Islamic state and are given equal rights (i.e.: no segregation). I guess this had more significance when people wanted to live in Muslim countries because they were centers of culture and leaders of thought and also had powerful armies http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif).

i know of something similar in the west... it's called mafia... i'm sorry to say this but that's just the first thing that came to my mind, when i read this. http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

if the west were demanding extra taxes from muslims just that they can live under equal rights, there would be an outcry from muslim societies/countries AND from human rights groups within such a state!

how can you justify such things?!

Cougar

Islam seems interesting, I would like one day to read the Quran in its natural language, however, why live by religion, when all the evidence in the world says that religion is arbitrary.

I live in America, I grew up a christian, you live in an arabic country, you grew up muslim, you live in India, you grow up hindi.

(commas are fun to use, I will not apologize for that run on sentence)

It seems like religion exists only to compel people into being civil when they really dodnt want to be. Why wont people act civilly on their own? Because most of you are complete morons. Without society and civilization(of any kind even cave man tribes mind you) we are nothing, we are a weak species that wont last. You have likely reached this point with a bit of anger, you dont consider yourself a complete moron or whatever.

Don't feel bad, a lot of you seem to know many many facts, and you all seem very articulate. The one thing that makes us all a bunch of morons, is that what we talk about in this thread happened a long time ago(in our relative view of time) and has not happened again in recent memory(that is there have been no new religions, no incredibly undeniably divine messengers{unless you are a mormon, wait a minute look at that word mormon, take an m out and what is it?} anyway did god give up on us, wtf mate?).

In conclusion religion exists because you are all morons.

quote:Originally posted by penjo0in:

Islam seems interesting, I would like one day to read the Quran in its natural language, however, why live by religion, when all the evidence in the world says that religion is arbitrary.

I live in America, I grew up a christian, you live in an arabic country, you grew up muslim, you live in India, you grow up hindi.

(commas are fun to use, I will not apologize for that run on sentence)

It seems like religion exists only to compel people into being civil when they really dodnt want to be. Why wont people act civilly on their own? Because most of you are complete morons. Without society and civilization(of any kind even cave man tribes mind you) we are nothing, we are a weak species that wont last. You have likely reached this point with a bit of anger, you dont consider yourself a complete moron or whatever.

Don't feel bad, a lot of you seem to know many many facts, and you all seem very articulate. The one thing that makes us all a bunch of morons, is that what we talk about in this thread happened a long time ago(in our relative view of time) and has not happened again in recent memory(that is there have been no new religions, no incredibly undeniably divine messengers{unless you are a mormon, wait a minute look at that word mormon, take an m out and what is it?} anyway did god give up on us, wtf mate?).

In conclusion religion exists because you are all morons.

Your theory seriously lacks consistency, but thnks for contributing anyway.

By the way I live in the UK, and have done all my life, I have no Arabic/Muslim relatives, only a few Muslim friends. I converted about a year ago, and I'm constantly learning stuff about Islam. I started this topic simply to learn more, NOT to get Snoopy involved with this:

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

Islam is for poor, sick, gay people.

Serious comments only, please. Do you REALLY want to turn out like Snoopy?

Stoyve

That is just how I feel sometimes about religion.

I wouldn't have added to this thread my thoughts, but for snoopy acting real wierd, and trying to come off like he has a point. I thought I might elicit a reply with that post, but now I just feel bad. You are civil and nice to go so far as to worry about how I might turn out if I keep up my antagonistic ways.

Thank you 5 7 0 Y V 3.

quote:Originally posted by princecharmant1980:

i never ate pork i tried other Junki things i admit and binladen fucked some infidel girls during his youth so what

look snoopy i know that you like to hear people saying oh snoopy your right and you don't like who has a different POV

if i say "I AGREE WITH YOU SNOOPY WE ARE JERKS " then will you fuck off?

I don't like people doing anything, except cry and moan for me to take my army boots off their pathetic throats.

I also remember, besides you eating pork and doing junk, that you in fact had a mind. Now, you're just a blind person. You're no different from the American fascists you hate. If you fight fire with fire, you'll burn either way. Well, you'll burn even if you don't so who gives a shit. Grow your brain back or get lost.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

I don't like people doing anything.

You're no different from the American fascists you hate.If you fight fire with fire, you'll burn either way. Well, you'll burn even if you don't so who gives a shit. Grow your brain back or get lost.



Please, Snoopy, shut the fuck up. WE DON'T WANT YOU HERE. How do you know whether he ate pork or not, anyway? Even if he did, that doesn't make him an "infidel".

Why is it that you weren't a mod for a day, anyway?

Stoyve

I've followed this discussion avidly so far, disappointing at some times and quite interested at others.

Please I'm asking everyone, whenever they make a claim or take quotes remember to give the number and chapter, which makes it easier for people to back it up. I'm looking at PrinceCharmant for it's not good to say a statement and not give it's verse number, therefore I can't count it as valid.

Question:

Why are two witnesses who are women, equivalent to only one witness who is a man ?

Answer:

It is not true that two female witnesses are always considered as equal to only one male witness. It is true only in certain cases. There are about five verses in the Qur’an that mention witnesses, without specifying male or female. There is only one verse in the Qur’an, that says two female witnesses are equal to one male witness. This verse is Surah Baqarah, chapter 2 verse 282. This is the longest verse in the Qur’an and deals with financial transactions. It says:

"Oh! ye who believe!

When ye deal with each other,

in transactions involving future obligation

in a fixed period of time

reduce them to writing and get two witnesses

out of your own men and if there are not two men,

then a man and two women, such as ye choose,

for witnesses so that if one of them errs

the other can remind her."

[Al-Qur’an 2:282]

This verse of the Qur’an deals only with financial transactions. In such cases, it is advised to make an agreement in writing between the parties and take two witnesses, preferably both of which should be men only. In case you cannot find two men, then one man and two women would suffice.

For instance, suppose a person wants to undergo an operation for a particular ailment. To confirm the treatment, he would prefer taking references from two qualified surgeons. In case he is unable to find two surgeons, his second option would be one surgeon and two general practitioners who are plain MBBS doctors.

Similarly in financial transactions, two men are preferred. Islam expects men to be the breadwinners of their families. Since financial responsibility is shouldered by men, they are expected to be well versed in financial transactions as compared to women. As a second option, the witness can be one man and two women, so that if one of the women errs the other can remind her. The Arabic word used in the Qur’an is ‘Tazil’ which means ‘confused’ or ‘to err’. Many have wrongly translated this word as ‘to forget’. Thus financial transactions constitute the only case in which two female witnesses are equal to one male witness.

However, some scholars are of the opinion that the feminine attitude can also have an effect on the witness in a murder case. In such circumstances a woman is more terrified as compared to a man. Due to her emotional condition she can get confused. Therefore, according to some jurists, even in cases of murder, two female witnesses are equivalent to one male witness. In all other cases, one female witness is equivalent to one male witness. There are about five verses in the Qur’an which speak about witnesses without specifying man or woman.

While making a will of inheritance, two just persons are required as witnesses. In Surah Maidah chapter 5 verse 106, the Glorious Qur’an says:

"Oh you who believe!

When death approaches any of you,

(take) witnesses among yourself when making bequests."

[Al-Qur’an 5:106]

two just persons of your own (brotherhood)

or other from outside if you are journeying

through the earth and the chance of death befalls you."

[Al-Qur’an 65:2]

Two persons endued with justice in case of talaq.

"Four witnesses are required

in case of charge against chaste women,

[Al-Qur’an 24:4]

There are some scholars who are of the opinion that the rule of two female witnesses equal to one male witness should be applied to all the cases. This cannot be agreed upon because one particular verse of the Qur’an from Surah Noor chapter 24, verse 6 clearly equates one female witness and one male witness:

"And those who launch a charge

against their spouses, and have (in support)

no evidence but their own -

their solitary evidence can be received."

[Al-Qur’an 24:6]

Hazrat Ayesha (RA) hadith narrated of one witness

Many jurists agree that even one witness of a woman is sufficient for the sighting of the crescent of the moon. Imagine one woman witness is sufficient for one of the pillars of Islam, i.e. fasting and the whole Muslim community of men and women agree and accept her witness! Some jurists say that one witness is required at the beginning of Ramadaan and two witnesses at the end of Ramadaan. It makes no difference whether the witnesses are men or women.

Some incidents require only female witness and that of a male cannot be accepted. For instance, in dealing with the problems of women, while giving the burial bath i.e. ‘ghusl’ to a woman, the witness has to be a woman.

The seeming inequality of male and female witnesses in financial transactions is not due to any inequality of the sexes in Islam. It is only due to the different natures and roles of men and women in society as envisaged by Islam.

[This message has been edited by Aini (edited 10-26-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by 5 7 0 Y V 3:

Please, Snoopy, shut the fuck up. WE DON'T WANT YOU HERE.

Who's this "we"? What matters is, is that the people who matter want me here. Hell, they'd PAY me to stay here. I'm just that awesome. You're not. Neither is your shitty religion. Go fuck sheep.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

Who's this "we"? What matters is, is that the people who matter want me here. Hell, they'd PAY me to stay here. I'm just that awesome. You're not. Neither is your shitty religion. Go fuck sheep.



lmfao http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

Who's this "we"? What matters is, is that the people who matter want me here. Hell, they'd PAY me to stay here. I'm just that awesome. You're not. Neither is your shitty religion. Go fuck sheep.



Are you okay?

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

Who's this "we"? What matters is, is that the people who matter want me here. Hell, they'd PAY me to stay here. I'm just that awesome. You're not. Neither is your shitty religion. Go fuck sheep.

This "we" is everybody else tht I've acknowledged in this topic, and everybody else who has posted in this topic for that matter, cumsponge.

I'd be very surprised if anybody payed you to insult me, that'd be a great way to make money. Go on, try it, piss off for a year or two, and see if you get any offers.

What's so shitty about my religion? There's not really much at all that I can see as "shitty" about it. Self restraint and self discipline are all endorsed and encouraged in the Qur'an, and that's hardly a bad thing. If you don't have any self control, you're likely to become some fat slutty Christian (anybody remember that troll, BeautifulChristianGirl?)who thinks he r t3h 1337 h4><><0rrz. As for the "go fuck sheep" remark, that's the WELSH, fuckwit. STOP WITH THE BESTIALITY, ALREADY!

By the way, if you can quote somebody who thinks u 1z t3h 1337357 without editing the post, I'll eat my own shit. And post pictures on here.

Stoyve

quote:Originally posted by princecharmant1980:

i think the old days were better when we used to kill infidels things were better i think the return to Jihad is the solution

when we stoped killing others crusades began and never stoped of course they have different names colonialism, freedom , democracy but it is still a crusade

STFU, Wahabbi!

You know that pre-emptive war is not allowed but defense is

quote:This "we" is everybody else tht I've acknowledged in this topic, and everybody else who has posted in this topic for that matter, cumsponge.

Oh really? And how many of these people are worth more than a pair of dirty underwear? I said people who MATTER.

quote:I'd be very surprised if anybody payed you to insult me, that'd be a great way to make money. Go on, try it, piss off for a year or two, and see if you get any offers.

People already have.



quote:What's so shitty about my religion? There's not really much at all that I can see as "shitty" about it. Self restraint and self discipline are all endorsed and encouraged in the Qur'an, and that's hardly a bad thing.

You're PATHETIC if you need religion to teach you discipline and self restraint. I can do that by myself. Basically, you're saying religion thinks for you, and you just follow what someone else thought up. You're a SLAVE. No religious person was ever free. It's weak people who cannot teach themselves ethics and morals who turn to religion. It's weak people who won't accept the fact of life that turn to religion. You're nothing. In religion, there is NO individuality. And if there is, it's corruption. You don't understand this, because you aren't advanced enough, intellectually.

quote:If you don't have any self control, you're likely to become some fat slutty Christian (anybody remember that troll, BeautifulChristianGirl?)who thinks he r t3h 1337 h4><><0rrz. As for the "go fuck sheep" remark, that's the WELSH, fuckwit. STOP WITH THE BESTIALITY, ALREADY!

You need religion to have self control? That's pathetic. You're weak. However, you silly attack on christians show that even islam can't give you self control. If there is one thing islam doesn't have, it's self control.

quote:By the way, if you can quote somebody who thinks u 1z t3h 1337357 without editing the post, I'll eat my own shit. And post pictures on here.

Knock yourself out. This site is full of hopless little shits like you. You don't know what life is. You don't know what religion is. You don't even live, you just exist. You just breathe, and someone else lives for you. (http://www.totse.com/bbs/Archives/Archive-000009/HTML/20040625-3-031417.html)

PATHETIC

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

you silly attack on christians



I NEVER ATTACKED CHRISTIANS. No stereotypes, please.

Learn to spell "your".

Quote:

People already have.



When. Evidence. Now. Alternatively, try it again. Bugger off for a year or two, don't come back unless somebody other than yourself from &TOTSE pleads you to come back. Go on, I'll wait here for you.

Quote:

Oh really? And how many of these people are worth more than a pair of dirty underwear? I said people who MATTER.

If you don't give a shit about anybody else, then don't bother talking to them. We don't want to hear you ("we" being as I mentioned earlier), and you apparently don't want to hear from us. Piss off.

Quote:

You're PATHETIC if you need religion to teach you discipline and self restraint. I can do that by myself.

Come on, I hope you're fucking joking. You can do fuck all by yourself. I bet you're still living with your mother.

I never said I needed religion for self-control, but it bloody helps.

Jesus Fucking Christ on a stick, get it right. And don't come back until you do.

Stoyve

Slave morality? I'm really not a fan of religion anyway.

quote:Originally posted by 5 7 0 Y V 3:

I smell like shit.

When you learn to use the quote function, I will dignify you with a reply. No wait, I won't.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

When you learn to use the quote function, I will dignify you with a reply. No wait, I won't.

Ha, bloody ha.

I know how to use it, I was just in a hurry. 6r4mm3r n4751.

Besides, I smell more of Sure Crystal than shit.

Stoyve

quote:Originally posted by 5 7 0 Y V 3:

Besides, I smell more of Sure Crystal than shit.

Nigger has no taste.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

Nigger has no taste.

I'm white. Besides, it doesn't stain clothes.

Can we keep on topic please?

Stoyve

Muslims are good for clearing landmines away, I spose.

quote:Originally posted by Trippy_McGee:

Muslims are good for clearing landmines away, I spose.

Piss off, unless you're actually going to contribute to this topic.

Stoyve

quote:Originally posted by 5 7 0 Y V 3:

Yet nowadays they are being persecuted becuase some nutters from Saudi Arabia hijack a plane and fly it into a skyscraper.



What the fuck did you know about Islam before 9/11, spastic?

quote:Originally posted by 5 7 0 Y V 3:

Yet nowadays they are being persecuted becuase some nutters from Saudi Arabia hijack a plane and fly it into a skyscraper.

I'd like to think of them as Wahabbi "nutters".

IIRC some of them also fell under the Islamic Republic of Iran which Hezballah spun off of. Both ancestors of Shi'ite Islam.

quote:Originally posted by 5 7 0 Y V 3:

Piss off, unless you're actually going to contribute to this topic.

He is contributing to the topic. Not only that, he also made quite a valid point. One day, me and Trippy are gonna have a child...

quote:Originally posted by Trippy_McGee:

Muslims are good for clearing landmines away, I spose.

Somehow, I don't think he was serious.

Stoyve

Of course he was. Trippy's always serious.

this post lasted more than necessary the conclusion :

muslims hate jews and christians christians hate muslims and jews and jews hate muslims and christians so we will fight .

The conclusion is:

Jews should die.

Muslims should die.

Christians should die.

Holy shit?! They DO die!!!

Muslims blow up Jews in Israel.

Christians kill and humiliate Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Christians get killed in shitholes like Indonesia (needs to get nuked by the way).

quote:Originally posted by princecharmant1980:

this post lasted more than necessary the conclusion :

muslims hate jews and christians christians hate muslims and jews and jews hate muslims and christians so we will fight .

That' untrue for if you've bothered to read the Holy Qur'an it says that closer in love you will find the Christians. This is stated in Surah Baqarah I think- I'll confirm it when I can.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

The conclusion is:

Jews should die.

Muslims should die.

Christians should die.

Holy shit?! They DO die!!!

Indonesia needs to get nuked by the way.

Where the fuck did you get that conclusion from?!

Why does Indonesia need to be nuked exactly?

Stoyve

snoopy has already won... don't you all see? he just wanted to make you angry... had you all just ignored him, he might have just gone away? http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

by the way, nobody answered to my questions yet:

- protests against muslim terrorists in muslim countries?

- jizyah being similar to mafia methods?

Cougar

quote:Originally posted by Cougar:

snoopy has already won... don't you all see? he just wanted to make you angry... had you all just ignored him, he might have just gone away? http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

by the way, nobody answered to my questions yet:

- protests against muslim terrorists in muslim countries?

- jizyah being similar to mafia methods?

Cougar

Good point.

Stoyve

*Yer well my God is a giant Llama!

J!mmy Spink*

quote:Originally posted by Aini:

That' untrue for if you've bothered to read the Holy Qur'an it says that closer in love you will find the Christians. This is stated in Surah Baqarah I think- I'll confirm it when I can.

no i have to tell you something islam regard Christians as less evil than jews that's all

infidels have only right to live under dhimi status or in their countries if they pay jizya

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

The conclusion is:

Jews should die.

Muslims should die.

Christians should die.

Holy shit?! They DO die!!!

Muslims blow up Jews in Israel.

Christians kill and humiliate Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Christians get killed in shitholes like Indonesia (needs to get nuked by the way).

the only one who need to be nuked is your shity country of serbia by the way serbia withrawed it's recognition of Western Sahara Gov and recognised Moroccan domination on western Sahara thanks but i still think you should be nuked

princecharmant, I hope you're a troll. If not, note how your IP is logged, and I'm sure the FBI watches this site. Welcome to Guantamano.

On the subject of Islam, I go to a classical chamber music camp each summer which invites students from Muslim countries, Israel, the works. I've met several Muslims, and none of them believe in terrorism. I think invading Iraq was stupid; it just created a haven for terrorists by providing them with a target. Better Iran (which actually has proven itself to be the one with WMD's) or Cuba (Communism needs the shit beaten out of it once and for all.) But if I could, I'd cheer every time a member of Al-Qaeda or a Fascist like princecharmant died.

quote:Originally posted by princecharmant1980:

islam is really peacefull even if we muslims want all the planet to be muslim even by force but we think force is a necessary evil to save the remaining people from hell it's as simple as that and 9/11 if it was done by muslims is a legitime defence killing 5 millions iraqi children can't be forgotten

i think 1 9/11 is not enough



are you crazy? are you a real muslim? islam doesnt support much of what you just said. 9/11 wasnt a decleration of war, ar a defense against anything. it was an act of terrorism, however you try to spin it.

quote:Originally posted by yixil:

princecharmant, I hope you're a troll. If not, note how your IP is logged, and I'm sure the FBI watches this site. Welcome to Guantamano.

On the subject of Islam, I go to a classical chamber music camp each summer which invites students from Muslim countries, Israel, the works. I've met several Muslims, and none of them believe in terrorism. I think invading Iraq was stupid; it just created a haven for terrorists by providing them with a target. Better Iran (which actually has proven itself to be the one with WMD's) or Cuba (Communism needs the shit beaten out of it once and for all.) But if I could, I'd cheer every time a member of Al-Qaeda or a Fascist like princecharmant died.

Korea also agreed that they had WMD- yet they threatened to unleash a 'wall of fire'.

True, that would be communism AND WMD's in the same boat. But we really don't want Seoul to get vaporized, now do we?

quote:Originally posted by princecharmant1980:

the only one who need to be nuked is your shity country of serbia by the way serbia withrawed it's recognition of Western Sahara Gov and recognised Moroccan domination on western Sahara thanks but i still think you should be nuked

I don't live in serbia you retard.

9/11 was not self-defense. If anything, it was revenge. Now I have heard a quote from the Qur'an saying, "Fight them as they fight you.." but I can't say what verse it was from.

Nevertheless, princecharmant, just because Israel invaded Lebanon, murders children, and the US invaded Afghanistan and Iraq, etc., does that mean the Muslims should sink to the standards of them? They are barbarians, should we become barbarians too?

No, Islam has a strict system of rights and limitations when it comes to waging war so that we don't become like them.

But it's worth noting a saying by Prophet Muhammad (pbuh): "The ink of a scholar is more sacred than the blood of a martyr." That's not to say mujahideen are unimportant, but they have their role next to that of scholars. Scholars are there to build society while Mujahideen are there to defend it. I think that today, we have too many Mujahideen and not enough scholars. We (Muslims) are defending against various onslaughts, but what are we defending?

quote:Originally posted by Cougar:

by the way, nobody answered to my questions yet:

- protests against muslim terrorists in muslim countries?

- jizyah being similar to mafia methods?

Cougar[/B]

Iraqi women protest in the streets of Bagdad almost monthy... West Bank and Gaza Strip Muslims are in the newspapers almost weekly protesting against terrorist violence... But you only hear about them when leaders are assainated...

As for your second question, I have no idea what it means...

quote:Originally posted by Axiom:

Iraqi women protest in the streets of Bagdad almost monthy... West Bank and Gaza Strip Muslims are in the newspapers almost weekly protesting against terrorist violence... But you only hear about them when leaders are assainated...

so they protest against muslims blowing themselves up to kill 'infidels'?

quote:As for your second question, I have no idea what it means...

it's further up in this thread. the point is: non muslims get protection for paying the 'jizyah'. do only non muslims have to pay it? doesn't this resemble mafia tactics? ('you pay and we don't demolish your shop.')

it seems to me, that non muslims would be second class citizens in a muslim state so i hope you understand, that something like that would motivate me to hinder a muslim government to establish itself in my country.

Cougar

quote:Originally posted by Cougar:

so they protest against muslims blowing themselves up to kill 'infidels'?

They protest against all acts of violence, be it occupation by Coalition Forces in Iraq & Israeli Soliders or Terrorists Assinations and car bombings... The protest is not to stop either one, its to put an end to both...



quote:

it's further up in this thread. the point is: non muslims get protection for paying the 'jizyah'. do only non muslims have to pay it? doesn't this resemble mafia tactics? ('you pay and we don't demolish your shop.')

it seems to me, that non muslims would be second class citizens in a muslim state so i hope you understand, that something like that would motivate me to hinder a muslim government to establish itself in my country.

I need to do more reading on it.

But interesting point, because in the current state of the world, it seems to me that Muslims are second class citizens in a Christian State... But, I don't really think you have to worry about that, I believe China will be the next super power and we'll all be equals in that Buddhist state...

[This message has been edited by Axiom (edited 11-01-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Axiom:

I need to do more reading on it.

But interesting point, because in the current state of the world, it seems to me that Muslims are second class citizens in a Christian State... But, I don't really think you have to worry about that, I believe China will be the next super power and we'll all be equals in that Buddhist state...

[This message has been edited by Axiom (edited 11-01-2004).]

ahmmm... nope. at least not where i live. our government does NOT impose special tax on people whatever their belief. think about it: a western democracy forcing additional taxes on a religious/ethnic group just because they're different... human rights groups in that very nation would go berserk!!! yet muslims take the right to impose such taxes?! http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif)

china as a communist country would be officially... atheist? (not buddhist. again, officially that is. the individual might be whatever he/she wants...)

Cougar

quote:Originally posted by mistro5000:



are you crazy? are you a real muslim? islam doesnt support much of what you just said. 9/11 wasnt a decleration of war, ar a defense against anything. it was an act of terrorism, however you try to spin it.

eye for eye terrorism for terrorism

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

I don't live in serbia you retard.

it should be nuked any way one of your relatives may still live there

quote:Originally posted by yixil:

princecharmant, I hope you're a troll. If not, note how your IP is logged, and I'm sure the FBI watches this site. Welcome to Guantamano.

On the subject of Islam, I go to a classical chamber music camp each summer which invites students from Muslim countries, Israel, the works. I've met several Muslims, and none of them believe in terrorism. I think invading Iraq was stupid; it just created a haven for terrorists by providing them with a target. Better Iran (which actually has proven itself to be the one with WMD's) or Cuba (Communism needs the shit beaten out of it once and for all.) But if I could, I'd cheer every time a member of Al-Qaeda or a Fascist like princecharmant died.

Guantanamo is not big enough for 80% of muslims as for your chamber stuff are you refering to Barenbhoim camp ?

and i agree Jizya is like mafia methods so what you pay because you are infidels and i will give you a good reason for Jizya in 18th century 60% of moroccan Jews converted to Islam because of Jizya of course it was an act of hypocrisy but their grandchildren are muslims now and they are saved from Hell

there even muslim scholars called Cohen in morocco and this is an enough reason to apply the Jizya system

http://firdaus.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=1179

Infidels of the World, Unite!



A message from the United Front for the Victims of Jihad.

Please visit www.victimsofjihad.com (http://www.victimsofjihad.com) and www.victimsofjihad.org (http://www.victimsofjihad.org) (under construction)

The United Front for the Victims of Jihad (UFVOJ) includes people throughout the world who find ourselves affected, in one way or another, by the actions of the adherents to Islam. Some have lost family members and friends to physical violence, while others have been cowed into forsaking their culture and their religion by Islamic overlords. Others are citizens of one country or another that has been impacted by Islamists.

The one binding element that brings us together from all over the world and from all over the political and cultural spectrum is that we ALL seek to reach out and make the world aware that the problem is NOT terrorism, that is merely a symptom. The problem with Islam is ISLAM itself. This religion’s teachings are NOT peaceful, but instead spur devotees to the worst kind of actions and terrorism. ISLAM MUST REFORM ITSELF.

Uniting together we seek to educate and inform, while becoming politically active in defense of our lands, our peoples, our cultures, our families and ourselves. We will no longer allow Islam to grow in the shadows; we will shine the light of truth on all its workings. We realize and recognize that no one ethnic group, no one nationality, no one race stands alone in this fight. We seek to serve as a “knowledge warehouse” or a one-stop-shop that can tell the story of all nationalities, giving the history of Islam’s terrible affect on every nation. .

We are no longer Jews or Gentiles; Hindus or Buddhists; Anglo-Saxons or Slavs; Armenians or Greeks; Nigerians or Sudanese Animists; Catholics or Protestant; Orthodox or Evangelicals; Atheists or Agnostics. We are simply human beings we all are VICTIMS OF JIHAD. WE ALL ARE VICTIMS OF ISLAMIC IMPERALISM. We refuse to be divided. We refuse to be intimidated by Islamic hegemony, Terrorism and aggression.

Victims of Jihad will stand against the theological imperialism that is taking place worldwide today. Islam seeks to convert and overthrow all nations of the world, and we must put a stop to it.

Victims of jihad works in two ways; globally, through our website to bring attention to Islam around the world, and Locally, to motivate and support local efforts to stand against Islamic Imperialism and to fight Islamic oppression.

Your ideal home town could be Bismark , North Dakota , or Kansas City , Missouri or Dublin , or Moscow or New Delhi (or some place similar to this). However, if Islam is crouching into your community you must begin by pointing out the impact. How? Since all politics are local, first, you MUST educate and influence your congressmen, senators, your governor; look to the governmental officials in your community. If you could do that you have completed your contribution to this great cause. That is YOUR job. You must work within your community and educate your fellow citizens.

If you can't influence your congressman, senator, or member of parliament ...try to educate and influence your councilman, your church/temple members or at least your friends and family.

Regardless of our background, ethnicity, or religion we must work together. Islam succeeds when we fail to work together! We have one thing in common; we all are Victims of Islamic hegemony.

There are multiple areas of concern, and these are true in many nations. The Victims of Jihad need researchers; those who can take a single subject of interest and research it in depth, and submit the evidence to our website for publication. These may be the written history of Islam in your country, or the story of a family member who was killed by Jihadists. The proof is in the written tale. Also, send us the visual history as well. If you tell about a family member, send us the photo of that person. Our website, with your help and support, will become a living memorial to the crimes of Islam, and a weapon to defeat their growth worldwide.

For centuries men, women and children have been killed by imperialist Islamists, yet today we live in a world that fears to speak out against the root of this violence lest we be accused of “intolerance”.

In uniting together we seek to educate, to inform, and to ignite political activism in our common defense of each person’s land, people, culture, families and self.

Victims of Jihad website is a one-stop-shop; a knowledge warehouse. As a single point of reference for the media and concerned individuals and organizations around the world, victimsofjihad.com will spread the latest news and provide information on the actions of Islam. UFVOJ seeks to serve as a data warehouse, containing information from around the globe that tells the story of all nationalities that have been victims of Islamic imperialist ambitions. No one group is alone in suffering, Islam has abused peoples wherever it has gone, and continues in this path today.

This site will provide links to other informative sites around the globe. Although we can not give everything to everyone, we are pleased to be able to be a link in the chain of information that will contain and stop the secret terror that is Islam.

This site will serve as a center of action and a means of remembrance for the millions of people whose voices have been silenced at the hands of Islam.

This site will provide educational materials and a place to openly discuss and expose the fears and concerns of the people of the world, a repository of facts and evidence of the true nature of Islam.

Most importantly, this site and the members of UFVOJ stand before the world and demand of Islam (its followers, supporting organizations, cultures and nation-states) an accounting of their actions throughout history and in the entire world today.

To promote the greatest effectiveness of our mission, UFVOJ has two aspects of our work – global and local. While the web site focuses on global issues, the local aspect involves each person who is concerned about these issues, working in his or her hometown.

Our Demands of Islam

· Islam must acknowledge and apologize for the death and destruction of non-Muslims worldwide in the name of Jihad.

· Iran , Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are the true Axis of Evil. They must stop religious and racial apartheid of non-Muslims immediately.

· Iran , Pakistan and Saudi Arabia have exported religious terrorism for the past two decades; these three nation-states must be demilitarized and they should compensate the victims of their worldwide religious terrorism.

· Wahhabi Islam must stop propagating its theology of hatred. Theological seminaries in Iran , Pakistan , and Saudi Arabia spewing religious and racial hate should be closed.

· Islam must return the stolen lands of the non-believers and their places of worship.

· Islam should compensate the victims of Islamic slave trade worldwide.

· Holocaust Museums must be built for the Victims of Jihad

· Saudi Arabia and other Gulf States must end all forms of discrimination against the immigrants in their respective nations. Victims of rape, involuntary servitude, and religious and economic apartheid should be compensated by the Saudi Arabians.

· There should be a unified Global Response to the Wahhabi Islamic Terrorism worldwide by the members of the United Nations Security Council.



http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/ufvoj41028.htm

quote:Originally posted by princecharmant1980:

Guantanamo is not big enough for 80% of muslims as for your chamber stuff are you refering to Barenbhoim camp ?

1. 80% of Muslims are NOT like you. Most are peaceful. You're a fascist and a fool.

2. When the hell did I ever mention chambers?

Oh, and guy who posted above me, that organization won't help. Idiot.

quote:Originally posted by Cougar:

ahmmm... nope. at least not where i live. our government does NOT impose special tax on people whatever their belief. think about it: a western democracy forcing additional taxes on a religious/ethnic group just because they're different... human rights groups in that very nation would go berserk!!! yet muslims take the right to impose such taxes?! http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif)

china as a communist country would be officially... atheist? (not buddhist. again, officially that is. the individual might be whatever he/she wants...)

Cougar

Jizyah; (about.com)

Definition: This is a tax imposed on non-Muslims in a Muslim state (Dar al-Islam), in order to compensate the state for the protection given to non-Muslims who are not permitted to serve in the military.

I can see why you would call this "Protection" money.. The army protects them for a fee (Because they are not allowed to fight) much like American's pay taxes so the American Army will "Protect" them from terrorists... The mafia however makes you pay "Protection Money" to protect yourself from The Mafioso smashing up your shop...

This doesn't seem anything to do with Mafia Tactics... Seems more like early tax system of muslim governments in India... It was abolished in 1564 and then reinstated 1679...

Early Christians took animals, grain and money from non-christians because “God” said that 10 percent of everything on earth belonged to him and should be handed to the church… Its not uncommon of any religion fundamentally…

China is not Communist, its a People's Republic: It is Pseudo-Communist;

This reserves them the right to Democratic Practices and Communistic Conformity... To say they're atheists would be offensive... They’re government is far from it…

quote:Originally posted by Axiom:

Jizyah; (about.com)

Definition: This is a tax imposed on non-Muslims in a Muslim state (Dar al-Islam), in order to compensate the state for the protection given to non-Muslims who are not permitted to serve in the military.

I can see why you would call this "Protection" money.. The army protects them for a fee (Because they are not allowed to fight) much like American's pay taxes so the American Army will "Protect" them from terrorists...

indeed, but they pay that NOT DEPENDING on their denomination.

quote:The mafia however makes you pay "Protection Money" to protect yourself from The Mafioso smashing up your shop...

This doesn't seem anything to do with Mafia Tactics... Seems more like early tax system of muslim governments in India... It was abolished in 1564 and then reinstated 1679...



so a hindu wouldn't have to worry about anything as long as he pays the 'jizyah'? he could remain hindu?

quote:

Early Christians took animals, grain and money from non-christians because “God” said that 10 percent of everything on earth belonged to him and should be handed to the church… Its not uncommon of any religion fundamentally…

christians had to pay that too. in the german speaking part of europe it WAS called 'Zehnt'. ('zehn' is the german word for ten (10)) and it was common practice to demand it from farmers (christians, mind you!) as well as from other people.

quote:China is not Communist, its a People's Republic: It is Pseudo-Communist;

This reserves them the right to Democratic Practices and Communistic Conformity...

china has democratic practices?! with only ONE party allowed?! gimme a break!

quote: To say they're atheists would be offensive...

calling someone an atheist wasn't an insult last time i checked...

quote: They’re government is far from it…

Cougar

quote:Originally posted by Axiom:

Jizyah; (about.com)

Definition: This is a tax imposed on non-Muslims in a Muslim state (Dar al-Islam), in order to compensate the state for the protection given to non-Muslims who are not permitted to serve in the military.

I can see why you would call this "Protection" money.. The army protects them for a fee (Because they are not allowed to fight) much like American's pay taxes so the American Army will "Protect" them from terrorists... The mafia however makes you pay "Protection Money" to protect yourself from The Mafioso smashing up your shop...

This doesn't seem anything to do with Mafia Tactics... Seems more like early tax system of muslim governments in India... It was abolished in 1564 and then reinstated 1679...

Early Christians took animals, grain and money from non-christians because “God” said that 10 percent of everything on earth belonged to him and should be handed to the church… Its not uncommon of any religion fundamentally…

China is not Communist, its a People's Republic: It is Pseudo-Communist;

This reserves them the right to Democratic Practices and Communistic Conformity... To say they're atheists would be offensive... They’re government is far from it…

You don't pay the Mafia so they wouldn't smash up your store, idiot. You pay them so someone else wouldn't smash up your store, or rob you. And if your store is in their turf, you MUST pay (same as with taxes). If you don't pay, they're not going to close your store like the goverment would do. They'd just torch it. They don't have the means to close down your place. Same as with other rules. The Mafia doesn't have a prison for people who break rules. They either get beaten or killed.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

You don't pay the Mafia so they wouldn't smash up your store, idiot. You pay them so someone else wouldn't smash up your store, or rob you. And if your store is in their turf, you MUST pay (same as with taxes). If you don't pay, they're not going to close your store like the goverment would do. They'd just torch it. They don't have the means to close down your place. Same as with other rules. The Mafia doesn't have a prison for people who break rules. They either get beaten or killed.

that's the point idiot we don't like infidels so they should pay for our tolerance

^I really doubt you're serious, and if you are, please die.

quote:Originally posted by Cougar:

doesn't this resemble mafia tactics? ('you pay and we don't demolish your shop.')

Snoopy: that was the original quote I was answering. And who the fuck are you to comment on the refinements of mafia tactics you're no gangster. You’re the wet hand at an elevator hoping to cop a feel. You piece of shit, its feasible if you don't pay mafia protection they're smash your shop open until you do... Go home, wash the fecial matter off your prosthetic dick, then come back and participate with less fag shit, Idiot…

quote:Originally posted by Cougar:

so a hindu wouldn't have to worry about anything as long as he pays the 'jizyah'? he could remain hindu?

Well, originally (During the Persian Empire) when the Arabs first began invading they recognised three faiths tolerable to islam… Christianity, Judaism and Zoroastrian (Persian religion at the time)… The Persian’s we’re free to worship their religion but ended up adopting Islam. There was no pressure, the people just found it better to worship a God of everything, rather than a god of fire…

I don’t know about Indian history, I’d say you’d be free to worship hindu as conversion of the religion was not the cause of the early wars; gold, money and resources were… Today wars are still about gold, money and resources, but are fought under the guise of “religion”… Its all bullshit;

quote:Originally posted by Cougar:

china has democratic practices?! with only ONE party allowed?! gimme a break!

Yes, one party, but a vote is taken for who represents you from that party… That’s pseudo-communism…

quote:Originally posted by Cougar:

calling someone an atheist wasn't an insult last time i checked...

In my experience, having no faith is far worse in China than having a conflicting faith… The Chinese are not Atheist’s at all and yes would be insulted for sure…

well since hindus are polytheistic i assumed it would be a problem with the monotheistic islamic government.

can they openly worship their gods? can they publicly sacrifice goods if they wish to?

quote:Originally posted by Axiom:

In my experience, having no faith is far worse in China than having a conflicting faith… The Chinese are not Atheist’s at all and yes would be insulted for sure…

i didn't mean individual chinese but the government, which is (pseudo) communist, officially is atheistic.

Cougar

[This message has been edited by Cougar (edited 11-04-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by princecharmant1980:

that's the point idiot we don't like infidels so they should pay for our tolerance

The point is, that we burn your villages, rape your women and stake your children. Through vertical impalement that is.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

The point is, that we burn your villages, rape your women and stake your children. Through vertical impalement that is.

quote:Snoopy's Profile:



Occupation: Isopropanol goes in my nose

Location: My mommas uterus

Interests: Making people feel bad about themselves while upgrading my own social status.

Enough said.

Stoyve

Well, I know under the Taliban they had an apartheid-like system. People liked to draw comparisons between the Jews under the Nazis and Hindus under the Taliban in that both had to wear stars to identify them. But for Hindus, the case was different--the star identified them as a Hindu so the police would not bind them by Islamic law. That is to say, they wouldn't be forced to grow a beard, to pray 5 times a day, etc. In that sense, it was somewhat tolerant.

On the note of that organization, that's the kind of crap Muslims have to deal with today in Western Countries--hate/intolerance groups bent on spreading misinformation: half truths and whole lies. Muslims don't move into communities because they hope to convert everyone some day... They move there because the house is nice, or the schools are good, etc. They are people.

What if we simply stop dehumanizing each other? "Muslims," "Extremists," "Westerners," "Infidels," etc. I think that's where the problems of the world start--not from religious or cultural differences, but from dehumanizing those who we disagree with. That's why we hear people saying things like, "I don't mind individual blacks, but I don't like them as a group." Everyone is unique! What if we respect that uniqueness instead of trying to categorize them and develop opportunistic reasons to hate them?

Princecharmant, you still haven't given any Islamic proof for your fascism. If you can't do that, then stop trying to attribute your personal opinions to Islam. You are no prophet and I highly doubt you are a scholar--so what business do you have to change the religion or speak so authoritatively about your interpretation?

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

Indonesia (needs to get nuked by the way).

I don't like the idea of 200 million angry Muslims less than 100ks from me.

NUKE THE FUCKING PLACE.

quote:Originally posted by 5 7 0 Y V 3:

Enough said.

Stoyve

You didn't say anything, retard.

quote:Originally posted by Axiom:

Snoopy: that was the original quote I was answering. And who the fuck are you to comment on the refinements of mafia tactics you're no gangster. You’re the wet hand at an elevator hoping to cop a feel. You piece of shit, its feasible if you don't pay mafia protection they're smash your shop open until you do... Go home, wash the fecial matter off your prosthetic dick, then come back and participate with less fag shit, Idiot…

Who am I? I'm better than everyone. You are shit.

quote:Originally posted by samosa_chem:

Well, I know under the Taliban they had an apartheid-like system. People liked to draw comparisons between the Jews under the Nazis and Hindus under the Taliban in that both had to wear stars to identify them. But for Hindus, the case was different--the star identified them as a Hindu so the police would not bind them by Islamic law. That is to say, they wouldn't be forced to grow a beard, to pray 5 times a day, etc. In that sense, it was somewhat tolerant.

why would you have to FORCE somebody to pray anyway? even if he/she belongs to islam.

and what about the buddha statues that were destroyed?

(i know the taliban are an extreme example.)

quote: On the note of that organization, that's the kind of crap Muslims have to deal with today in Western Countries--hate/intolerance groups bent on spreading misinformation: half truths and whole lies. Muslims don't move into communities because they hope to convert everyone some day... They move there because the house is nice, or the schools are good, etc. They are people.

most do exactly that. but then again it's not them drawing a lot of attention.

in germany for example there are muslim parents who wrote letters to the schools their kids went to, to hinder their kids from taking part in camps the class went to. they said, their kids should not be farther away from home than a camel could travel in a day. (quite outdated in the age of automobiles)

quote: What if we simply stop dehumanizing each other? "Muslims," "Extremists," "Westerners," "Infidels," etc. I think that's where the problems of the world start--not from religious or cultural differences, but from dehumanizing those who we disagree with. That's why we hear people saying things like, "I don't mind individual blacks, but I don't like them as a group." Everyone is unique! What if we respect that uniqueness instead of trying to categorize them and develop opportunistic reasons to hate them?

if i were dehumanizing you, would i be talking to you like this?

true, if we all started to judge every person individually, we wouldn't have that many problems. but who goes first?

"the other side must go first, i will follow..." this also is a core problem. (with many things, not only globally.)

about snoopy... just ignore him. he really doesn't care at all whether you like him, insult him, agree with him or whatever. replying to him is like trying to put out a fire with gasoline.

Cougar

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True muslims believe in only the Quran as the official text of their religion, and not quotes of Muhammed-he was simply a messenger.

If more muslims concentrated solely on the Quran there would be much less confusion.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

The point is, that we burn your villages, rape your women and stake your children. Through vertical impalement that is.



time will tell

just a thing concerning the Bhuda statutes

Taliban destoyed the statutes not because they don't permit freedom of worship but because since there are no bhudists in Afghanistan then they don't need it and i think the statutes looked Ugly

The destruction of the Buddhas by the Taliban was more political than it was religious. They did it to grab attention and as a protest against the sanctions on Afghanistan. In effect, they were saying, "If you are going to destroy Afghanistan's future, why do you care about its history?"

This was also mentioned in a speech given by a Taliban spokesman at some university in California a few years ago ( I believe it was in 2000 or early 2001). He said that some team from Scandinavia offered to spend a few million dollars to maintain the Buddha statues. When the Taliban asked if they could instead use that money to maintain/feed the people of Bamiyan, which was less than 20 km from the statues, the team said, "This money is only for the statues." The Taliban responded by saying, "Fine--then we'll blow the statues up."

Kinda strange logic. But you have to understand the Taliban was just a bunch of farmers without education.

quote:Originally posted by samosa_chem:

(...)When the Taliban asked if they could instead use that money to maintain/feed the people of Bamiyan, which was less than 20 km from the statues, the team said, "This money is only for the statues." The Taliban responded by saying, "Fine--then we'll blow the statues up."(...)

Reminds me of a similar thing I saw on CNN -- you'll pardon me if I can't recall it exactly, or correctly:

The soccer stadium in Kabul was used under the previous governments to host both domestic and international soccer matches.

When the Taliban came into power, the practise of sports was forbidden but executions were carried out regularly in that same soccer stadium as a matter of routine.

A foreign observer pointed out, "It seems perverse to execute people in a place where people used to get together and compete in a friendly atmosphere. If you're bent on executing people, can't you do it somewhere else?"

Whereupon one of the mullahs replied, "Well, perhaps if you were to provide us with some economic aid, we could build a new stadium for executions only, and we could leave the soccer stadium alone."

Whenever I think about that one, I ponder to myself, "What kind of (mis)education did these people receive to think that capital punishment (and not even the lethal-injection kind -- I'm talking about shot-execution-style after a speedy (and probably biased and flawed) trial) was a normal part of life?"

More to the point, what made those people believe that they somehow deserved a brand new place to execute people with foreign aid donated in good faith?

i think death penalty in general is a bad thing. either you haste the process and risk, murdering an innocent person, or you delay the whole thing ad infinitum and impose psychological torture on the 'candidates' on death row.

about money spending: maybe respecting human rights might have motivated more nations to help? blowing up cultural sites (which are protected by the geneva convention (http://deoxy.org/wc/wc-proto.htm)) doesn't make you more likeable either. and why would the taliban rather spend money on weapons and exposives instead of nurturing their own people?

but one must say that the taliban were urged by muslims around the world not to blow up the statues so this is only an isolated example and should not be portrayed as a general attitude of muslims.

another question: what does the quran say about muslims who want to change their religion or become atheists?

Cougar

quote:Originally posted by Cougar:

(...)another question: what does the quran say about muslims who want to change their religion or become atheists?

Cougar

The Qur'an says that irtidad, the act of turning one's back on Islam, is a serious offense. Strangely enough, it doesn't prescribe a specific punishment for it -- it just describes what might be interpreted as punishment in the afterlife.

Commentaries by Islamic scholars seem to agree on this point, and some go further to say that death would not be an appropriate punishment for an apostate.

However the general attitude among Muslims is that apostasy is, if not a capital offense, the next worst thing and will at the very least result in the alienation of the apostate from all his fellow Muslims.



It should be pointed out that Muhammad was believed to have said "Whoever changes his religion, kill him."

Moreover, there are countries in which (in addition to Shari'a law) the prescribed civil punishment for apostasy IS death (take Mauritania, for example -- it's in the constitution).

So, one might say that while the Qur'an doesn't mention something about the death penalty for apostates, Islamic society in general views it as a very serious sin.

quote:Originally posted by ZEN OF AZRAEL:

BACK TO WHAT THIS POST IS ABOUT:

True muslims believe in only the Quran as the official text of their religion, and not quotes of Muhammed-he was simply a messenger.

If more muslims concentrated solely on the Quran there would be much less confusion.

Err... we have to follow the Authentic Hadith as well.

In the Qur'an it says to pray, however, it's in the Sunnah and Hadith of the Prophet (p.b.u.h) on how to pray, what times e.t.c.

The Qur'an and Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h) should be followed. Meaning the authentic hadith.