James Madison, the fourth president, known as "The Father of Our Constitution" made the following statement:

"We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."

Patrick Henry, that patriot and Founding Father of our country, said:

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians. Not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ."

Fifty-two of the 55 founders of the Constitution were members of the established orthodox churches in the colonies.

"Anytime religion is mentioned within the confines of government today people cry, "Separation of Church and State". Many people think this statement appears in the first amendment of the U.S. Constitution and therefore must be strictly enforced.

However, the words: "separation", "church", and "state" do not even appear in the first amendment.

The first amendment reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

The statement about a wall of separation between church and state was made in a letter on January 1, 1802, by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association of Connecticut. The congregation heard a widespread rumor that the Congregationalists, another denomination, were to become the national religion. This was very alarming to people who knew about religious persecution in England by the state established church. Jefferson made it clear in his letter to the Danbury Congregation that the separation was to be that government would not establish a national religion or dictate to men how to worship God (the true meaning of "Separation of Church and State".

Jefferson's letter, from which the phrase "separation of church and state" was taken, affirmed first amendment rights.

Jefferson wrote:

'I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State.

- http://www.noapathy.org/tracts/mythofseparation.html

I believe that the phrase "separation of church and state" has been supremely misinterpretted and manipulated, in order to allow for the atrocious laws that are being passed in recent history.

Non-Christians cry out "Religious Oppression!" whenever religion becomes a factor in any environment - medical, educational, or governmental.

The First Amendment has been completely taken out of context.

As stated above, the First Amendment deals with disallowing our government the right to control a church, or religion. It also prevents any church from controlling the government.

When people sue a school for subjecting their child to the Pledge of Allegiance (which is an age old tradition, citing the pride and blood that have sustained this great country), using the First Amendment as an umbrella, they are not only twisting the law, but spitting in the face of our founding fathers.

No one can deny it...this country was FOUNDED ON CHRISTIAN BELIEFS AND PRINCIPLES.

It may not be the popular way of doing things NOW, but that is how it was intended to be upon creation.

The very first Supreme Court Justice, John Jay, said:

"Americans should select and prefer Christians as their rulers."

I happen to agree.

quote:No one can deny it...

I'm going to deny it.

John Adams (2nd president): "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!"

Thomas Jefferson: "The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter"

James Madison: "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."

James Madison: "Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

Benjamin Franklin: "As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion...has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his Divinity"

Many of the founding fathers were deists, but didn't not ascribe to or had their doubts about Christianity. George Washington never claimed to be a christian, appointed a universalist officer, and on his deathbed never acknowledged a higher being.

Our governmental structure is much more akin to Roman ideas especially Plato's Republic than "The 10 Commandments". The 10 Commandments don't really describe governmental structure at all. It is simply a baseline moral code of conduct. The bible to my knowledge does not endorse democracy in any way. Nor do any pieces of the bill of rights come from it.

If you believe it is your christian duty to vote for politicians for will put forth the values of the religious right, that is your perrogative. But to claim that this country is a christian nation is simply not backed up by facts.

theBishop

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:



"Americans should select and prefer Christians as their rulers."

I happen to agree.

So you would have voted for Nixon instead of Kennedy?

I agree that alot of the seperation issues in your country are frivolis at best but teaching creationism in schools and abortion are not.

In my opinion to follow your constituion you would need to teach creation stories from many diferent cultures and religions as well as eveloutionary theroy to not be respecting any one religion. I know most of the people fighting for creationism in schools would do not want this, most of them want Genisis to be read in place of Darwin and Mendal.

Abortion should be a non-issue for Christians, as long as they don't have one they can rest secure in the knowledge that people who do will burn in Hell for all eternity. If all people were Christians and had "Christian Values" abortions would not be nesesary. Forcing those values on poeple who don't share by making them law would be respecting one religion over another.

The abortion issue is not that simple. It's not just an "immoral act". Many christians believe abortion is actually murder. So you can't really say "you should have a problem with murder as long as you don't do it yourself".

I personally have very conflicting feelings on abortion. The bottom line is that i feel like it should be a social taboo. We shouldn't need legislation banning it because people should just acknowledge that it is a horrible practice. From a legal matter though, i think it is a choice between a mother, father, god and doctor.

quote:Originally posted by MasterPython:

So you would have voted for Nixon instead of Kennedy?

I agree that alot of the seperation issues in your country are frivolis at best but teaching creationism in schools and abortion are not.

No, I would not have voted for Nixon or Kennedy.

I will rephrase: I vote for Christians who share Christ's values.

People can claim to be Christian all they wish, but their actions will prove otherwise.

Even then, they might be Christian (meaning "Saved"), and still be un-Christlike.

It's a hard call, I will concede.

And I agree.

Neither Religion, NOR evolution should be taught in school, as neither can be 100% proven, according to modern scientific standards.

quote:In my opinion to follow your constituion you would need to teach creation stories from many diferent cultures and religions as well as eveloutionary theroy to not be respecting any one religion.

Agreed.

quote:I know most of the people fighting for creationism in schools would do not want this, most of them want Genisis to be read in place of Darwin and Mendal.

That is hardly fair. On the flipside, it is unfair that evolution is taught without hinderance, while creationsism isn't.

Let's look at the scenario: Christianity and creationism are strictly admonished in public schools, while the Christian's (creationists) look on helplessly to change this fact.

If the tables were turned, however, and Christianity/Creationism were taught in schools, and evolution were admonished, the public would cry "Separation of Church and State !"...and you know what ? They'd win.

One must consider whether or not Evolution ought to be considered a form of religion.

It is a belief system, based on half of a puzzle. "We're sure we'll find the other half. It just makes sense !"

That's not good enough.

If it's not good enough for Creationist's, then it shouldn't be good enough for Evolutionist's, either.

quote:Abortion should be a non-issue for Christians, as long as they don't have one they can rest secure in the knowledge that people who do will burn in Hell for all eternity.

We are taught to love our brother as we love ourselves, which means we are tasked with the heavy burden of defending the unborn.

To look the other way would be completely against our beliefs.

Also, those who perform or undergo abortions don't go to hell for it, singularly.

What sends folks to hell is their denial of God's existence, and His supremity over our lives.

Sin is sin. It's all the same to Him (unbearable to be around).

quote:If all people were Christians and had "Christian Values" abortions would not be nesesary. Forcing those values on poeple who don't share by making them law would be respecting one religion over another.

But we're talking about murder here. Not what colors our children should wear to school.

I agree that the law should not prefer one religion over another, but it is not the religion that is at issue.

Though it is predominantly Christianity and it's derivatives that abhor abortion, it should be the VALUE OF HUMAN LIFE that is the issue, not the religious driving force behind that value.

"AS A FORMER FETUS, I OBJECT TO ABORTION." (a bumper sticker I just saw the other day)

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

From a legal matter though, i think it is a choice between a mother, father, god and doctor.

The fact that God is a deciding entity in your scenario automatically dictates that it would be wrong.

Period.

What you just did was compromise your Christian values, based on respect for HUMAN law.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

You sound like Kerry.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 10-21-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Neither Religion, NOR evolution should be taught in school, as neither can be 100% proven, according to modern scientific standards.

The difference being that Evolution HAS evidence, and creationims DOES NOT. By your logic, Science itself shouldn't be taught in schools!

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

It is a belief system, based on half of a puzzle. "We're sure we'll find the other half. It just makes sense !"



No, it's not a belief system, however much you christians want to think it is. Believe it or not, some of us rely on things like "evidence" and "working models" and "facts".

As for that puzzle analogy, it's more like nine-tenths of one, and the more likely puzzle at that.

Rust, Tesseract... you're doing the science thingy again... that's a big nono! http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

(no matter how right both of you are...)

Cougar

Huh? Why not? Did I miss something?

[This message has been edited by Tesseract (edited 10-21-2004).]

just you wait and see...

(oh, and: http://www.totse.com/bbs/Forum15/HTML/003118-2.html

science stops debating, you know...)

Cougar

Ok, so why is science a big nono?

We weren't talking about the big bang, so I assume you meant for me to look at that a,b,c thing?

I, too, am a becoming scientist(biochem, what are you studying?), so forgive me for being conservative when it comes to ideas that significantly differ from the most likely theories. But isn't a part of science just that?

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

I'm going to deny it.

John Adams (2nd president): "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!"

RELIGION, not God, thus Christianity (salvation through Christ).

Religion has been the divider of mankind, no doubt.

That quote is talking about something entirely different.

quote:Thomas Jefferson: "The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter"

He was most likely referring to the pagan's point of view. *shrugs*

I am not sure...I will try and research that a bit further.

Perhaps it was just an attempt at a prophetic statement.

Thomas Jefferson is hardly the model Christian. (don't make me break out the history books on his less-than-savory behavior)

Anyway, I said this country was founded on Christian principles. Your quotes don't refute that.

(I didn't say the founding father's were perfect !)

quote:James Madison: "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."

Can we say "The Catholic Church", anyone ?

This still does not specifically deal with the fact that the country was founded on Christian principles (i.e. the Ten Commandments).

quote:James Madison: "Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

And he is right...and it still follows the context of my original post.

Neither of them controlling the other keeps both of them pure.

If the church does not influence the government, all the better.

If the government does not influence the church, we're all happy.

Still supporting my statements.

quote:Benjamin Franklin: "As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion...has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his Divinity"

Both Benjamin Franklin, and Thomas Jefferson were Masons, whose motto is: "...morality in which all men agree, that is, to be good men and true."

If this group (FreeMasons) was Christian based, as they claim to be, then don't you think God would be in their motto somewhere ?

"Sin is seldom referred to in Masonic literature. The reality of sin in the Biblical sense is denied (much like the Christian Scientists); Masons think that any "shortcomings" can be overcome by greater enlightenment. Yet in attaining the degree of Master Mason, the symbolism implies that a person is redeemed from the death of sin and sin's pollution." - http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/masons.htm

Ummm...that's completely un-Biblical, and they even admit to it here in this paragraph.

"John Adams, one of many contemporaries who had little use for Benjamin Franklin, intended no compliment when he observed of Franklin's religious views that "the Catholics thought him almost a Catholic. The Church of England claimed him as one of them. The Presbyterians thought him half a Presbyterian, and the Friends believed him a wet Quaker."(1) Had Dr. Franklin ever been among Hindus, Buddhists, or Muslims, doubtless he would have convinced them that he was deeply sympathetic to their beliefs as well. The fact that no one to this very day is quite sure of Franklin's religious beliefs would please him enormously, if he were still with us, for Benjamin Franklin liked to keep people guessing. That is what made him a controversial figure during his lifetime, and that is why he remains controversial today.

Franklin would find it highly amusing that in recent years he has been portrayed by the political and religious Right as an orthodox Christian who helped lay the foundations of a Christian nation. The good doctor was certainly not anti-Christian, for he believed that the Christian religion inspired many Americans to be good citizens; moreover, their faith comforted them in times of crisis and gave them strength. On the other hand, Franklin believed that all other religions did the same for their adherents--Islam, Hinduism, and all the rest. Religion--any religion--was a good thing in his view, for it served a useful purpose. Franklin treated all religions alike, making him in all probability the first American champion of generic religion." - http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2082/is_4_62/ai_64910236

quote:Many of the founding fathers were deists, but didn't not ascribe to or had their doubts about Christianity. George Washington never claimed to be a christian, appointed a universalist officer, and on his deathbed never acknowledged a higher being.

George Washington was yet another Freemason.

George Washington, the father of our nation said, "It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible." Can you imagine the stress on this man the winter of 1777-78 at Valley Forge, Pennsylvania? He knew overwhelming British forces awaited him in the spring. The entire future of the fledgling nation was on his shoulders. If he were defeated, the new nation would no longer exist. He and the signers of the Declaration of Independence would probably be hanged, and his soldiers were dying at the rate of twelve per day. Many didn't have blankets or shoes.

Isaac Potts, who was Washington's temporary landlord at Valley Forge the winter of 1777-78, gave a famous account of Washington's resolution. As Potts was traveling the dark forest, he heard some distance from him a voice that became more intense as he approached its origin.

As Potts approached, he saw the Commander-in-Chief of the armies of the United Colonies on his knees in prayer to the Creator and Ruler of the Universe. Washington was praying for the new nation, for guidance, and for the men under his command. Potts, a Quaker, returned to his home and his wife where he declared, "I have seen this day what I shall never forget. Till now I have thought that a Christian and a soldier were incompatible; but if George Washington be not a man of God, I am mistaken, and still more shall I be disappointed if God does not through him perform some great thing for his country."

When Washington was inaugurated the first President of the United States in New York in 1789, a public prayer meeting was conducted to commit the new nation to the "blessings of the Creator." Later the same year, on October 3, 1789, President Washington issued a Thanksgiving Proclamation. The document begins,

"Whereas it is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor ... Now, therefore, I do recommend and assign Thursday the 26th day of November next to be devoted by the People of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being, who is the beneficent Author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be -..."

James Madison, the fourth president and the Father of the Constitution said,

"The future and success of America is not in this Constitution but in the laws of God upon which this Constitution is founded."

In this paper: http://www.theology.edu/journal/volume2/ushistor.htm the author boldly states that the "founding fathers of this country did not acknowledge this message.", that message being Christian.

The early church summarized the Christian message in six points:

1. Jesus came from God.

2. You killed him.

3. He rose again on the third day.

4. He sent the Holy Spirit

5. Repent and be baptized.

6. He's coming back.

Then the author gives THREE examples of the "founding fathers" who rejected the doctrine of Christianity, and ONLY THREE.

I have searched extensively, and have found none other than the three mentioned that could definitively be separated from the opinion that this country was founded on Christian principles.

If it wasn't, why are the Ten Commandments posted all over Washington ?

Why are Bible scriptures engraved on marble monuments littering that state ?

quote:Our governmental structure is much more akin to Roman ideas especially Plato's Republic than "The 10 Commandments". The 10 Commandments don't really describe governmental structure at all. It is simply a baseline moral code of conduct.

Then why aren't Plato's Republic ideals posted in every courthouse across America ?

quote:The bible to my knowledge does not endorse democracy in any way. Nor do any pieces of the bill of rights come from it.

Jesus was a Jew. Democracy was a foreign concept, and he didn't meddle in things pertaining to government.

Law, yes...as Christians we are to govern OURSELVES in a certain manner, but he did not specifically address government "the institution".

I didn't say the Bill of Right was derived from the Bible.

quote:If you believe it is your christian duty to vote for politicians for will put forth the values of the religious right, that is your perrogative. But to claim that this country is a christian nation is simply not backed up by facts.

I believe it is my Christian duty to tell the truth, and not stand by in idle apathy while the pagans of this world rip our values to shreds.

I am not claiming that this country is a Christian nation.

I said, specifically, that it was founded on Christian principles.

"As we analyze the founding of America, we realize that the discovery of the New World was in the fullness of time. Christopher Columbus' quest was to sail to Asia by going west from Europe. You know the story. He convinced Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand of Spain to finance the journey, and in 1492 he sailed west ultimately to find the New World. What you probably do not know is that this flawed and complex man professed Christ as Savior. His very name meant "Christ Bearer". He named his first landfall, San Salvador (Holy Savior). In 1504 he wrote a book. In the book he wrote,

"I prayed to the most merciful Lord about my heart's great desire ... It was the Lord who put into my mind ... the fact that it would be possible to sail from here to the Indies. There is no question that the inspiration was from the Holy Spirit...."

Columbus also wrote, "...I am a most unworthy sinner, but I have cried out to the Lord for grace and mercy, and they have covered me completely."

From the beginning, Christians in Europe viewed the New World as a place for religious freedom and a haven and an opportunity to spread the Gospel. Their earliest legal documents reflect their commitment to Christ and their mission. In 1620, the Pilgrims established the Mayflower Compact before they landed at Plymouth Rock. The document said,

"In the presence of God, Amen. We...do by these presents solemnly and mutually in the presence of God, and one another, covenant and combine ourselves into a civil body politic."

In the Fundamental Orders of Connecticut, often called the first American Constitution, written in 1638, the drafters said, "[We] enter into a combination and confederation together to maintain and preserve the liberty and purity of the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, which we now profess." This document recognized for the first time that mankind's rights come from God.

The Declaration of Independence, signed by the delegates to the Continental Congress, on July 4, 1776, stated that, "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness - That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men...."

The Declaration of Independence acknowledges that mankind is created and that the Creator God bestows the rights. That means, that no man can take them away, and that government, instituted by God, is to protect those rights. By implication, government cannot deprive a person of those rights absent due process of law. Thus, God gave mankind free will, and a function of government is to protect the electorates exercise of free will. That is a Christian concept.

By the way, did you know that the Continental Congress called for a day of fasting and prayer within the colonies, beseeching God to give guidance and direction as to whether they should secede from England before the representatives to the Continental Congress signed the Declaration of Independence? In 1777, while the colonies were struggling in the Revolutionary War, the First Continental Congress called the Bible "the great political textbook of the patriots" and appropriated funds to import 20,000 Bibles for the people. Are you aware that the Continental Congress began its sessions with prayer, a practice that is followed by both houses of congress even today ?

Long before the United States Constitution, the colonies had written documents that established government and citizen's rights under God's authority. The drafters of the U. S. Constitution were aware of these documents and considered them in drafting the document. The expression of America's early documents is unmistakably Christian. They were philosophically anchored in Biblical principles, and the expression of the colonists in these legal documents of what became the states was undeniably Christian. These documents recognized the existence, importance and nature of God.

For example, He was referred to in the constitutions and legal documents of the colonies and later the thirteen states as: one God in South Carolina and Connecticut; Almighty in North Carolina, Delaware, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and Vermont; in Massachusetts, He was called, the Supreme Being, the Creator, Good, and the Great Legislator of the Universe; He was called the Governor of the Universe in Pennsylvania, and Vermont; and the inspirer of the scriptures of the Old and New Testaments in South Carolina and Pennsylvania. His Divine Providence was recognized in New York, Connecticut and Massachusetts. In Connecticut he was called Savior and Lord. Do you think the classrooms in our country ever study these documents today?

The references to God in these documents and their understanding that He is God, make clear that our founding fathers recognized and acknowledged God's nature and authority, as well as mankind's dependence upon the Lord. These documents acknowledged rights, but the context of the documents conceded that the documents did not first create the rights. Colonial America believed that individual rights were God given, not man made. They made it clear that essential to the maintenance of virtue and liberty depended on the worship of God. These constitutions, declarations and bills of rights of the colonies were the pattern for the Constitution of the United States and its Bill of Rights. They were the models for the nation's founders.

What about the people, the individuals, who actively participated in establishing this nation? Were they Christians ? The truth is that some were and some were not, of course. But even those who were not were influenced by the principles of Christianity. By examining what many of them said and wrote we gain insight into their beliefs and the source of their commitment. Many of them had been influenced by the "Great Awakening" and its' residual effect. Around 1750, people like Jonathan and Sarah Edwards led in the expression of the awareness of God; the sinfulness of mankind; the consequences of sin; and God's mercy manifested by Christ's death and resurrection.

Patrick Henry, the great orator who said on the floor of the House of Burgesses in Virginia, "Give me liberty or give me death" also said,

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians, not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ! For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."

John Adams of Massachusetts, a lawyer and the second president, wrote a letter to Jefferson on June 28, 1813. He said, "The general principles on which the Fathers achieved independence, were . . . the general principles of Christianity."

Samuel Adams, cousin of John Adams, is called the "Father of the American Revolution." He incited the Boston Tea Party, signed the Declaration of Independence and called for the first Continental Congress. He said as the Declaration of Independence was being signed, "We have this day restored the Sovereign to whom all men ought to be obedient. He reigns in heaven and from the rising to the setting of the sun, let His kingdom come." Samuel Adams also said, "First of all, I ... rely upon the merits of Jesus Christ for a pardon of all my sins."

Thomas Jefferson said, "The reason that Christianity is the best friend of governmentis because Christianity is the only religion that changes the heart."

Benjamin Franklin, considered a deist by many, said, "He who shall introduce into the public affairs the principles of a primitive Christianity, will change the face of the world."

Thomas Jefferson, also considered a deist, said, "I am a Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."

George Washington, the father of our nation said, "It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible.[/i]"

Can you imagine the stress on this man the winter of 1777-78 at Valley Forge, Pennsylvania ? He knew overwhelming British forces awaited him in the spring. The entire future of the fledgling nation was on his shoulders. If he were defeated, the new nation would no longer exist. He and the signers of the Declaration of Independence would probably be hanged, and his soldiers were dying at the rate of twelve per day. Many didn't have blankets or shoes.

Isaac Potts, who was Washington's temporary landlord at Valley Forge the winter of 1777-78, gave a famous account of Washington's resolution. As Potts was traveling the dark forest, he heard some distance from him a voice that became more intense as he approached its origin.

As Potts approached, he saw the Commander-in-Chief of the armies of the United Colonies on his knees in prayer to the Creator and Ruler of the Universe. Washington was praying for the new nation, for guidance, and for the men under his command. Potts, a Quaker, returned to his home and his wife where he declared, "I have seen this day what I shall never forget. Till now I have thought that a Christian and a soldier were incompatible; but if George Washington be not a man of God, I am mistaken, and still more shall I be disappointed if God does not through him perform some great thing for his country."

James Madison, the fourth president and the Father of the Constitution said,

"The future and success of America is not in this Constitution but in the laws of God upon which this Constitution is founded."

I think I have sufficiently supported my opinion.

no it's science in general that makes (certain *hint*) people leave debates... no matter if you talk about big bang, evolution,...

notice how digital just left? i would have liked to go on...

biochem, eh? that's great! we have surah (physics), you (bio/chemistry), rust (?... do you study?), me (electrical engineering).

i don't see ALL religion as a bad thing. it's just that when it contradicts scientific evidence and thinks it's right i can't understand.

Cougar

EDIT: digital: care to give a reply in the other thread? you would be most welcome.

[This message has been edited by Cougar (edited 10-21-2004).]

Oh, ok, I see what you mean. I often miss the vacant stares that too much tech-talk induces! http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

The difference being that Evolution HAS evidence, and creationims DOES NOT. By your logic, Science itself shouldn't be taught in schools!

Sorry, but there IS science that supports Creationism.

If you can't admit that, you are even more close-minded than originally thought.

quote:Originally posted by Tesseract:

No, it's not a belief system, however much you christians want to think it is. Believe it or not, some of us rely on things like "evidence" and "working models" and "facts".

As for that puzzle analogy, it's more like nine-tenths of one, and the more likely puzzle at that.

If you don't know what the "ending point" is, then how can you say conclusively that you have 9/10's of the evidence required to prove your "theory" ?

I can't say "half", either, based on that logic. My statement served only to illustrate that you have no more proven your "theory" to creationists than creationists have proven theirs to evolutionists.

Evolution IS a belief system, if you call creationism a belief system, because there is physical, scientific evidence of both versions.

if creationism has scientific proof, why is it such an issue? please, show us proof.

Cougar

The claim that evolution in any way emulates a religion is absolute bullshit. Evolution is not a belief. It's a scientific theory, that theoretically, if given enough time, will have reproduceable results. Creationism is not a scientific theory. It's a claim made by a few "scientists" to try to claim that the genesis story has a valid scientific possibility, which it doesn't.

And how is evolution a belief system based on half a puzzle? Do you just refuse to accept that evolution is not a massive anti-christian conspiracy? If there were ever a time when evolution were untenable with scientific discoveries, then it would be discarded. No question about it. Because thats how science works.



Back on topic, Jefferson and most of the founding fathers were deists. I personally think that they were deists because no other theory for creation existed at the time. If they had lived after Darwin made his theory, I think many of them would have been atheists. Jefferson also said:

"Question with boldness even the existance of God. For if one does exist, he must surely approve more the homage of reason than of blind fear."

If this country was founded on the basis of the 10 commandments, which as you have said earlier are no longer the law of God, then where are they in our legal documents? Where in the constitution does it make reference to any of them? Where does our entire legal system, beyond what makes sense for a stable society, and did not necessarily come from Moses?

As to your bit about Washington: So what? The man was religious. He also owned slaves. Just because a founder was a deeply religious man does not mean the entire country was founded on those principles. America was founded on the principles of the Enlightenment, on the writings of Locke and others. I fail to see how Christian principles come into it by more than a passing resemblence.



Until you come up with an arguement that shows that the founding principles of America differed from Enlightenment ideal in the favor of Christianity in any way, I will consider you refuted.

Also, for another thread, show some evidence of Creationsim. Give me one piece of impartial, empirical evidence.

As for Creationists and Evolutionists converting each other... it's very difficult to convince someone who thinks they have all the answers, given to them by God. Creationists make up a remarkably small minority of actual scientists. I'm at a large university. I've been told, by professors, that approximately 2% of people with Ph.D's are creationists. It's hardly an equal footing. Even most of the professors who consider themselves religious don't take genesis literally.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Sorry, but there IS science that supports Creationism.

If you can't admit that, you are even more close-minded than originally thought.

Yeah... go find some proof then.

Creation "science" is an affront to science - they start with a conclusion, that no evidence will ever change, and then they go through scientific journals, magazines, and quotes made by scientists, then take them out of their context, add a heap of total bullshit, and hey presto - theres your evidence.

Come on, post some bullshit, it will just get refuted.

Digital, I have only the utmost respect for you AND your faith, but you mustn't say things like "The 10 Commandments are based on Christianity." The 10 commandments precisely reflect the morals of not only most (if not all) religions, but also the basic ethics of man in general. Put a man who hasn't found God in a home, let him witness a man being robbed; he will see it's wrong. Put a man in a home and watch women be raped, he will see the impurity. Put a man on the battlefield knowing that each of these men fights with honor, he will weap at the massacre.

quote:Originally posted by Cougar:

Rust, Tesseract... you're doing the science thingy again... that's a big nono! http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

(no matter how right both of you are...)

Cougar

In this thread it's ok, though primarily irrelevant.

Stop being trite.

quote:Originally posted by Cougar:

no it's science in general that makes (certain *hint*) people leave debates... no matter if you talk about big bang, evolution,...

notice how digital just left? i would have liked to go on...

biochem, eh? that's great! we have surah (physics), you (bio/chemistry), rust (?... do you study?), me (electrical engineering).

i don't see ALL religion as a bad thing. it's just that when it contradicts scientific evidence and thinks it's right i can't understand.

Cougar

EDIT: digital: care to give a reply in the other thread? you would be most welcome.

[This message has been edited by Cougar (edited 10-21-2004).]

I didn't leave. (??)

I do WORK, ya know. *lol*

quote:Originally posted by Cougar:

if creationism has scientific proof, why is it such an issue? please, show us proof.

Cougar

It causes such an issue because man is arrogant and prideful by nature.

Wouldn't want to admit that we "need" anything to "save" us, now would we ? *grin*

I have given scientific evidence before.

Look through the OLDER threads. If you can't find it, I will try to give some more evidence, but know that I have a family, and stretch my time thinly enough as it is to make room for Totse.

Not that I don't want to, but if you haven't noticed I can be quite thorough, and that takes research, and time.

There arn't any of your older threads - Wintermute deletes the last few pages every now and then, so that the entire site doesnt get bogged down.

quote:Originally posted by SurahAhriman:

The claim that evolution in any way emulates a religion is absolute bullshit. Evolution is not a belief. It's a scientific theory, that theoretically, if given enough time, will have reproduceable results.

That is completely hypothetical, since you have no evidence that you WILL reproduce results.

You just expect to, based on current progress.

But guess what ? That's no better than me saying that God is real, and given time we'll all find out when we arrive in heaven or hell (because it will happen).

A theory IS a belief, because it is not proven.

Here are the definitions of a "theory":

1.A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.

2. The branch of a science or art consisting of its explanatory statements, accepted principles, and methods of analysis, as opposed to practice: a fine musician who had never studied theory.

3. A set of theorems that constitute a systematic view of a branch of mathematics.



4. Abstract reasoning; speculation: a decision based on experience rather than theory. (I believe this is what Christians are most often accused of)

5. A belief or principle that guides action or assists comprehension or judgment: staked out the house on the theory that criminals usually return to the scene of the crime.

6. An assumption based on limited information or knowledge; a conjecture.

Creationism is not a scientific theory. It's a claim made by a few "scientists" to try to claim that the genesis story has a valid scientific possibility, which it doesn't.

I didn't say Creationism is a scientific theory. I said it can be supported with science.

quote:And how is evolution a belief system based on half a puzzle? Do you just refuse to accept that evolution is not a massive anti-christian conspiracy?

It doesn't matter to me whether or not it is anti-Christian, it matters to me that it is anti-God.

God said He created things in a certain way, and to say anything else is to call Him a liar. I have a problem with that. Capisce ?

The "half-puzzle" statement is in reference to the theory not having been completed yet.

quote:If there were ever a time when evolution were untenable with scientific discoveries, then it would be discarded. No question about it. Because thats how science works.

You can manipulate anything.

Especially when you have an agenda that feeds your ego.

Science studies. Evolution half-studies, half-guesses.

quote:Back on topic, Jefferson and most of the founding fathers were deists. I personally think that they were deists because no other theory for creation existed at the time. If they had lived after Darwin made his theory, I think many of them would have been atheists.

There's some more conjecture for you, folks.

There is nothing to support that, and you didn't read my post.

They obviously believed in God, contrary to what Bishop would have you believe.

READ IT.

quote:Jefferson also said:

"Question with boldness even the existance of God. For if one does exist, he must surely approve more the homage of reason than of blind fear."

What he said is Biblical.

I don't see how that goes against the belief that this country was founded on Christian principles.

quote:If this country was founded on the basis of the 10 commandments, which as you have said earlier are no longer the law of God, then where are they in our legal documents?

No, I didn't.

I said the LAW OF MOSES is no longer used.

The Law of Jesus is, and that includes the commandments given in those 10.

Jesus taught many of the same things that God did through Moses.

Your lack of Biblical understanding is baffling, for someone who claims it is just a story.

quote:Where in the constitution does it make reference to any of them? Where does our entire legal system, beyond what makes sense for a stable society, and did not necessarily come from Moses?

I didn't say the Constitution did reference them.

Study who these men were. They were God-fearing, church-going Protestants.

Your last question didn't make sense.

quote:As to your bit about Washington: So what? The man was religious.

You can't just ignore some facts, and accept others.

Bishop tried to insinuate that Washington didn't follow God, and I gave references to why that wasn't true.

Try and follow the context.

quote:He also owned slaves. Just because a founder was a deeply religious man does not mean the entire country was founded on those principles.

Oh, really ? What does it mean then ?

That's like saying that just because you tie your shoes doesn't mean you won't trip.

*LAUGHS*

quote:America was founded on the principles of the Enlightenment, on the writings of Locke and others. I fail to see how Christian principles come into it by more than a passing resemblence.

Why don't you just *try* reading what I post, instead of assuming you have all the answers, based on PERSONAL OPINION ?

Click on the link, and read the rest of what that judge wrote. He sufficiently addresses your comment.

quote:Until you come up with an arguement that shows that the founding principles of America differed from Enlightenment ideal in the favor of Christianity in any way, I will consider you refuted.

You would consider me refuted no matter what.

I'm a Christian, and therefor I am wrong.

The sea is made up of salt and water.

Refute me.

quote:Also, for another thread, show some evidence of Creationsim. Give me one piece of impartial, empirical evidence.

I have.

Sorry you missed it.

Your hostility won't earn you any favors from me.

You have the ability to find this information out yourself. You're a scientist, after all...aren't you ?

Don't be guilty of looking only at what suits your palette.

quote:As for Creationists and Evolutionists converting each other... it's very difficult to convince someone who thinks they have all the answers, given to them by God. Creationists make up a remarkably small minority of actual scientists. I'm at a large university. I've been told, by professors, that approximately 2% of people with Ph.D's are creationists. It's hardly an equal footing. Even most of the professors who consider themselves religious don't take genesis literally.

Ok. *lol*

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 10-22-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:



Not that I don't want to, but if you haven't noticed I can be quite thorough, and that takes research, and time.

Yeah... (http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=creation+science&meta=)

quote:Originally posted by Ezratal:

Digital, I have only the utmost respect for you AND your faith, but you mustn't say things like "The 10 Commandments are based on Christianity." The 10 commandments precisely reflect the morals of not only most (if not all) religions, but also the basic ethics of man in general. Put a man who hasn't found God in a home, let him witness a man being robbed; he will see it's wrong. Put a man in a home and watch women be raped, he will see the impurity. Put a man on the battlefield knowing that each of these men fights with honor, he will weap at the massacre.

Thank you. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

But I didn't.

I said the founding fathers were ruled consciously by the 10 Commandments (therefor establishing our government around those principles), not that Christianity is.

We follow them, among many others.

Sorry if you misunderstood me.

God bless.

I'll try and retrieve them, Oh Nasty One. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

Oh, btw, most of the founding fathers did believe in God, however, they were NOT Christin per se.

They were Deists - which means, they believed that there was a God that created the world, but that that God doesn't really interfere.

Thats more or less the equivalent of being an athiest back in those days, since there wasn't as yet any scientific explanation for the existance of the world.

quote:Originally posted by dearestnight_falcon:

Yeah... go find some proof then.

Creation "science" is an affront to science - they start with a conclusion, that no evidence will ever change, and then they go through scientific journals, magazines, and quotes made by scientists, then take them out of their context, add a heap of total bullshit, and hey presto - theres your evidence.

Come on, post some bullshit, it will just get refuted.

That's a pretty lofty claim.

And I don't remember you refuting ANYTHING the last time I posted scientific data supporting Creationism.

So...ssshhhhh.

quote:Originally posted by dearestnight_falcon:

Oh, btw, most of the founding fathers did believe in God, however, they were NOT Christin per se.

They were Deists - which means, they believed that there was a God that created the world, but that that God doesn't really interfere.

Thats more or less the equivalent of being an athiest back in those days, since there wasn't as yet any scientific explanation for the existance of the world.

Eep... actually, I'm wrong.

I'm willing to admit it though.

After a bit of reading, I found that they were not Deists in the modern sense of the word.

Not Christian either though.

Um... I don't know the actual word though.

most believed in god. Deism means god created the universe and then went off to get a cup of coffee or something.

the majority of the founding fathers didn't say that especially. they simply spoke of "god" and the "creator" without any real doctrine attached.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

That's a pretty lofty claim.

And I don't remember you refuting ANYTHING the last time I posted scientific data supporting Creationism.

So...ssshhhhh.

Course you dont remember, I didn't http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif).

And I might remind you, that the last time you did, you filled the first page with seperate threads on it. http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)

Yeah, its a lofty claim... but luckily, just like there are Creationist "scientists" working overtime to manufacture "evidence", there are irritating skeptics with nothing better to do, sitting around debunking it.

That being said, people like James Randi do sorta annoy me. http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

most believed in god. Deism means god created the universe and then went off to get a cup of coffee or something.

the majority of the founding fathers didn't say that especially. they simply spoke of "god" and the "creator" without any real doctrine attached.

Sorta a universalist type thing from what I figure.

Attitudes were weird back then.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Sorry, but there IS science that supports Creationism.

There is!? Then please don't waste any more time! Post it! I'm dying to know!



quote:A theory IS a belief, because it is not proven.

If Science was one of your 'strongest subjects' as you claim, then you would know that nothing in Science is proven. To be proven, is to be irrefutable, and therefore un-changeable; nothing in Science is un-changeable, therefore nothing is 100% provable.

By your lack of logic, we shouldn't teach any Science in schools! http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

" But in science and generally in academic usage, a theory is much more than that. A theory is an established paradigm that explains all or many of the data we have and offers valid predictions that can be tested. In science, a theory can never be proven true, because we can never assume we know all there is to know. Instead, theories remain standing until they are disproven, at which point they are thrown out altogether or modified slightly."

-- http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Theory

http://home.comcast.net/~fsteiger/theory.htm

quote:In this thread it's ok, though primarily irrelevant.

How convinient. Its okay because you started talking about it before I did. Or is it because you are the originator of the thread?

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 10-22-2004).]

I completely agree with DF on this subject. It is also clear to me that this nation was founded on basic Christian principles, and I also believe this is what the forefathers wanted (whether affiliated with the Christian church or not). I also believe that some of the problems of this nation are a result of this.... That, however, is a conversation for another time.

Sorry for all the edits, I'm rather intoxicated.

[This message has been edited by Ezratal (edited 10-22-2004).]



[This message has been edited by Ezratal (edited 10-22-2004).]

quote:That is completely hypothetical, since you have no evidence that you WILL reproduce results.



Bad wording on my part. I meant to say that it will produce definate results, or it will be discarded. You were right to call me on it.

quote:It doesn't matter to me whether or not it is anti-Christian, it matters to me that it is anti-God.

God said He created things in a certain way, and to say anything else is to call Him a liar. I have a problem with that. Capisce ?



Way to completely side-step the issue. And now to claim I manipulate again. All I'm telling you is the truth. Science is concerned only with empirical truth. If something cannot be verified, or has a single repeatable counter to it, it isn't truth.

And the bit about Jefferson, yes it was conjecture. Hence it being prefaced with "I think". And as for them beleiving in God, it's not like there was a viable alternative back then. But alot of those men came as close to rejecting God as was really possible at that time.

Have you ever questioned the existance of God? Or do you just serve out of fear of not being saved? Would you still worship him if there was no paradise reward? What if worshipping God damned you. Would you do it anyway?

You yourself have argued that the law of moses is no longer applicable, superceded as it is by the law of Christ. You said it to rust when he used "Thou shalt not kill" as a reason for you to not vote for Bush. And how is my lack of understanding baffling? Why would I put as much dedicated study as you do into a story? I don't memorize every story I read. It would be baffling if I were a devout christian. You're just being insulting.

It doesn't matter if the founders were Christian. They created a system of laws that wasn't based off of Christian law. Whatever their personal views may be, their political ones were not influenced enough to make this a Christian country. Every law we have is a matter of common sense, no the Law of God. The fact that they didn't legislate Christian law, by your own words, means that they were not Christian!

quote:Oh, really ? What does it mean then ?

That's like saying that just because you tie your shoes doesn't mean you won't trip.

*LAUGHS*

What the fuck does that even mean? Do you even understand the concept that some people can seperate parts of their lives, such as political and religious?

I'm now reading your link, which I missed before. My thoughts, as I read it.

1. The author has never read anything by Hobbes, one of the most influential enlightenment thinkers.

2. The idea that the Bible opposes tyranny is utter bullshit. Arguements based off the Bible were made while there men were alive that the Bible supported absolutism.

3. The authors seems ignorant of the fact that places without christianity, or before it had laws against theft and murder.

4. The education system was not set into place until the second quarter of the 19th century. The founding fathers had nothing to do with it.

5. The author is remarkably biggotted, claiming that only one set of beliefs can be taught. apparently, he supports the punishment of others, simply because they are not in the majority. I think this author would prefer to live in Iran.

6. And most importantly, that link did absolutely nothing to support the claim that everything the founding fathers did was for biblical reasons insteal of Enlightenment ideals. It doesn't even address the issue. I once again call you on dodging issues you don't have answers for.



And yes, I am a scientist. And every piece of "evidence" for creationsim I've seen is flawed, or the mysterous claim that actualy evidence against it is in fact, false. Like the claim that carbon dating can only predict accurately within 100 years. Utter bullshit. But if you did manage to post irrefutable evidence, I would have to agree. Can you make the same claim?

quote:

Originally posted by DS:



Jesus was a Jew. Democracy was a foreign concept, and he didn't meddle in things pertaining to government.





Just a question, then why do Christians today not follow his example today? I live in Nebraska, and there are a whole slew of Christian church groups trying to get abortion banned, as well as keeping illegal drugs illegal. My opinion? Do not try to force (or legalize) your morality on other people, they will resent you if you try. God gave us free will, didn't He? Then let us exercise it, for God's sake!

I'm Libertarian, if you couldn't tell. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

Also, dealing with the issue of this country being founded on basic Christian principals, I have to agree with the other people here who have said that these principals are not just held by Christians, but are shared by many other world religions, as well.

They are, SJ, this is apparent and I too stated it..... I don't think that DF denies this at all, either. I merely believe he's attempted to associate a connection between the founders and Christianity. To this extent I completely agree..... It seems obvious to me that the forefathers based this country on Christianity in particular and though some of them may not have been in affiliation with the Christian church the ideas they placed into effect were in relation (at least in their minds) to Christianity.

Just in case people don't know,

Do not kill

Do not steal

Do not fuck someone elses wife

are not values that are unique to Christianity. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

i know you posted 'something' in other threads. (i even replied in some of them...)

i also asked questions... none were answered... why? neither one of the creationists (you weren't alone, Digital_Savior) did... a shame...

allow me to just ask two for the beginning?

- why do dolphins have fingers in their flippers?

- how do you explain the archaeopteryx to be anything else but a transient form between dinosaurs and birds?

this thread keeps flipping from grounding fathers to creationism. allow me to only take part in the second part because i actually don't know very much about american history.

Cougar

P.S. Digital_Savior: life outside &totse?!?! that's an oxymoron http://www.totse.com/bbs/eek.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/eek.gif) !!!

no seriously, i do understand that you have to take care of your kids and your job. most of us have other things to attend to by the way...

like i said: i was tired, wanted an answer etc... i'm sorry.

quote:Originally posted by dearestnight_falcon:

Yeah... (http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=creation+science&meta=)

I have many more sources than that.

Can you at least TRY and be civil ? (meaning "fair" ?)

Ahh... I ought to mention - don't take most of what I say too seriously, unless its actually an argument, its a blend between friendly sarcasm and friendly humor.

I don't mean it personally.

Otay...

But my personality leads me to do the same, except I try not to, because much is lost in translation over the internet, and I wouldn't willingly want to ridicule you (thus making you look bad in front of everyone else).

Ya know ?

A large majority of Americans in the late 17th and early to mid 18th century (especially men) were involved in secret "brotherhoods" or "lodges", one of the most popular was Freemasonry. Most of the Freemasons at that time considered themselves Christian, but they were not "Christian" in the modern sense.

The modern Christian is a whole new breed of animal than the Christians of early America, or the dark ages, or the 4th century. Saying they were Christian doesn't mean much.

Thomas Paine wrote, "It is the fable of Jesus Christ, as told in the New Testament, and the wild and visionary doctrine raised thereon, against which I contend. The story, taking it as it is told, is blasphemously obscene" (Ibid.)."

These men were not your typical Christians. Franklin, Paine, Jefferson, Washington and many others all spoke out against the "common" Christianity of their time - as being bred of self-righteousness and contempt of the principals of life and liberty. Only 33% of Americans wanted to succeed from the Union, but our Founding Fathers were not the kind of men to follow Kings or Saviors. They practiced a kind of Deist Kindness.

As Paine said, "To do good is my religion."

[This message has been edited by Sempre Solipsist (edited 10-23-2004).]

another thing i'd like to point out, is that creationists like to turn around the whole concept of evolution. they assume, that earth from beginning was meant to harbor life. but that's not the case. we're here because it DID turn out to be a habitable environment. if it weren't, we wouldn't be here to discuss the whole matter over the internet. that's it.

Cougar