Lets see... I've been raised in a christian family my whole life. There are many things I disagree with, and many things that just don't make sense to me. I'm gonna list some questions I have/flaws that I see and let you guys argue with me about them.

First off, I posted before that the Adam and Eve story doesn't make sense at all. If Adam and Eve were the first people, their children (which would be brothers and sisters) would have to have sex with each other in order to continue the human race. This would be incest, which is a "sin" in the bible.

Noah's ark doesn't make any sense either. How the hell do you fit all the species in the world in a boat. That one's just... self explainitory right there...

If God exists, he gave us a "free will." But, if God is "all-knowing" then he already knows everything we are going to do ahead of time. How can a free will exist if something already knows the choices you will make?

Why would God create millions of species of animals, and then decide that only humans should be allowed to go to heaven? Why not every other animal? Is he forsaking his own creations?

This was something someone else posted on here: Why would God create a "lake of fire" and then want to save use from it? That doesn't make any sense, God shouldn't have created any lake of fire in the first place. If I start lighting houses on fire with children inside, and then I try to save them, I wouldn't be called a "hero," I would be considered psychotic and sent to an insane asylum.

If heaven exists, it says in the Bible that it will be a world without sin. I don't know if I'd like that. A world without sin would be a world without free will, and free will if what makes us human. Wouldn't it be boring to live for "eternity" without being able to sin at all? What would you do to occupy yourselves? Basically everything we do can be considered a sin. If you lie, thats a sin. If you watch television and someone swears, thats a sin. If you have pre-marital sex, thats a sin. If you read a book about budda, thats a sin. If you miss church on sunday to watch the football game, thats a sin. It goes on and on.

Why did God create people to be homosexual, and then decide that homosexuals are evil and are full of sin? I doubt most people choose to be homosexual, thats just the way they were made.

What about babies that are born with deformities or life-threatening diseases? What about babies that die within 30 minutes of being born, or babies that have a stillbirth? Surely babies are incabable of doing any wrong when they are born. Why would this God forsake these babies and give others a chance to live?

I think the main reason people believe in christianity is because they are afraid of what will happen if they don't. Its this fear of "hell" that separates christianity from all other religions. If you sin, you're going to hell. If you don't do this and that, you're doomed to an eternity of fire and pain.

There have been millions of religious throughout our time, how do you know that this one is any different? The ancient egyptians prayed to the sun god, the god of love and war, and all these other gods that don't exist. The muslims pray to "allah" which is basically the same God the christians belive in.

How do you explain the fact that we have evidence of evolution? Mainly homo-erectus and other human-like organisms.

How do you explain the fact of dinosaurs? It never mentions dinosaurs anywhere in the bible. The dinosaur bones alone date back millions of years, when according to the bible man has only been around for 7,000 years.

The earth has been dated as 4.7 billion years old. The bible says the earth as we know it has been around for only 7,000 years.

There are many others, those are just some.

First off, I posted before that the Adam and Eve story doesn't make sense at all. If Adam and Eve were the first people, their children (which would be brothers and sisters) would have to have sex with each other in order to continue the human race. This would be incest, which is a "sin" in the bible.

Unless you understand both that the Garden of Eden is but one isolated spot on the planet, and Hebrews tend to have a very tricky definition of 'existence' and 'not existence,' 'life' and 'death,' which coincide directly with 'initiated' and 'uninitiated.'

Noah's ark doesn't make any sense either. How the hell do you fit all the species in the world in a boat. That one's just... self explainitory right there...

The Deluge only concerns the area of the planet where the Adamites lived, and was therefore not universal. However, many other religions and mythologies - the Gilgamesh epic, for example - allude to a giant Flood, which at least indicated that one certainly occurred; simply not to the devastating effects indicated by the Hebrews.

If God exists, he gave us a "free will." But, if God is "all-knowing" then he already knows everything we are going to do ahead of time. How can a free will exist if something already knows the choices you will make?

Because you're confusing 'free will' with physical liberty. When you're born, it's already known that you're going to die. Does that mean you don't choose what happens in between?

Why would God create millions of species of animals, and then decide that only humans should be allowed to go to heaven? Why not every other animal? Is he forsaking his own creations?

Because humans are the only ones who care whether or not there's a God.

This was something someone else posted on here: Why would God create a "lake of fire" and then want to save use from it? That doesn't make any sense, God shouldn't have created any lake of fire in the first place. If I start lighting houses on fire with children inside, and then I try to save them, I wouldn't be called a "hero," I would be considered psychotic and sent to an insane asylum.

Read the Book of Enoch. God wrested control of the world from Leviathan, the original inhabitor of infernal depths.

If heaven exists, it says in the Bible that it will be a world without sin. I don't know if I'd like that. A world without sin would be a world without free will, and free will if what makes us human. Wouldn't it be boring to live for "eternity" without being able to sin at all? What would you do to occupy yourselves? Basically everything we do can be considered a sin. If you lie, thats a sin. If you watch television and someone swears, thats a sin. If you have pre-marital sex, thats a sin. If you read a book about budda, thats a sin. If you miss church on sunday to watch the football game, thats a sin. It goes on and on.

First of all, that's like laughing at Buddhist monks because monk life seems boring. Just because something doesn't make you immediately 'happy' doesn't mean it's not worth pursuing, simply out of the virtue and righteousness of the act in itself.

Second of all, you have great misconceptions about sin that need to be genuinely assessed before you can continue.

Why did God create people to be homosexual, and then decide that homosexuals are evil and are full of sin? I doubt most people choose to be homosexual, thats just the way they were made.

First of all, I'm sure God doesn't care whether or not you 'doubt' his methods.

Second of all, homosexuality is a defection of society, and therefore brings people to accept that it's OK. I'm sure the people of Sodom and Gomorrah insisted that what they were doing was OK, and blamed God for making them that way.

What about babies that are born with deformities or life-threatening diseases? What about babies that die within 30 minutes of being born, or babies that have a stillbirth? Surely babies are incabable of doing any wrong when they are born. Why would this God forsake these babies and give others a chance to live?

"Where there is no law, there is no transgression."

-Paul

I think the main reason people believe in christianity is because they are afraid of what will happen if they don't. Its this fear of "hell" that separates christianity from all other religions. If you sin, you're going to hell. If you don't do this and that, you're doomed to an eternity of fire and pain.

How many Christians do you talk to on a daily basis? Of all the snivelling weasels that inhabit the church, I've yet to see this sad ghost.

There have been millions of religious throughout our time, how do you know that this one is any different? The ancient egyptians prayed to the sun god, the god of love and war, and all these other gods that don't exist. The muslims pray to "allah" which is basically the same God the christians belive in.

I agree with this point, but I also believe that all the religions are fundamentally the same, with certain things taken away from a fundamentally perennial faith.

How do you explain the fact that we have evidence of evolution? Mainly homo-erectus and other human-like organisms.

We have evidence of previous civilizations that have died out. We have not a single speck of evidence for the transmutation of species.

How do you explain the fact of dinosaurs? It never mentions dinosaurs anywhere in the bible. The dinosaur bones alone date back millions of years, when according to the bible man has only been around for 7,000 years.

1. I think DS addressed this point in previous posts, so I'll leave it up to her to post it again. Apparently, certain scholars claim Behemoth and Leviathan are technically dinosaurs.

2. We started using the Gregorian calendar in 1582, modified from the Julian calendar of 46 BC, which was modified from the Roman calendar that held only 304 days, divided amongst ten months that was followed by an unnamed period of winter. Still before, around 3000 BC, was the Babylonian calendar that started months whenever a crescent moon was sighted, and wasn't finalized in an exact form until 500 BC. The Egyptian calendar, a little bit more solid, consisted of 12 thirty-day months with five extra festival days in between.

I'm much too tired at this point in the day (Jeez, 1:30 in the afternoon http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif) ) to identify the historical contexts of these findings, but this pretty much indicates that our concept of 'year' and Biblical concepts of 'year' vary greatly.

The earth has been dated as 4.7 billion years old. The bible says the earth as we know it has been around for only 7,000 years.

See the above-mentioned point, #2.

[This message has been edited by Tyrant (edited 10-22-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

Because you're confusing 'free will' with physical liberty. When you're born, it's already known that you're going to die. Does that mean you don't choose what happens in between?



1. The general concept of free will leaves room for absolutes such as your own death scenario.

2. But your death analogy is a very poor one. He's arguing, that because there is knowledge of what will happen, then there either can be no other choice, or the knowledge was wrong.

In your analogy, 'that you will die' is known, and therefore you cannot choose whether to die or not. The problem does not arises when one thing is known, since the general concept leaves room for this. The problem arises when everything is known, since, if everything is known, then you can't choose anything, and thus refuting the general concensus on what is "free-will".

quote:Originally posted by Cash Stealer:

Lets see... I've been raised in a christian family my whole life. There are many things I disagree with, and many things that just don't make sense to me. I'm gonna list some questions I have/flaws that I see and let you guys argue with me about them.

First off, I posted before that the Adam and Eve story doesn't make sense at all. If Adam and Eve were the first people, their children (which would be brothers and sisters) would have to have sex with each other in order to continue the human race. This would be incest, which is a "sin" in the bible.

It wasn't a "sin" during the time of Adam and Eve.

If you read the creation verses in Genesis carefully, you will notice that no provisions are made for "incest".

Adam and Eve were as perfect as humans are ever going to be.

Back then, copulating with blood relation didn't cause the adverse physical and mental disabilities that it does today.

You assumed something, and therefor, didn't understand it.

quote:Noah's ark doesn't make any sense either. How the hell do you fit all the species in the world in a boat. That one's just... self explainitory right there...

Let's break this down. (it IS incredible, but with God, all things are possible).

Genesis 6:14-16 "14 Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.

15 And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits (The common computation as to the length of the cubit makes it 20.24 inches [51.40959999999999 centimeters] for the ordinary cubit, and 21.888 inches [55.59552 centimeters] for the sacred one. This is the same as the Egyptian measurements.), the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits.

16 A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it.[/b]"

Most Hebrew scholars believe the cubit to have been no less than 18 inches long [45.72 centimeters]. This means that the ark would have been at least 450 feet long [137.16 meters], 75 feet wide [22.86 meters] and 45 feet high [13.716000000000001 meters].

The total available floor space on the ark would have been over 100,000 square feet, which would be more floor space than in 20 standard-sized basketball courts.

The total cubic volume would have been 1,518,000 cubic feet [462,686.4 cubic meters] -- that would be equal to the capacity of 569 modern railroad stock cars.

According to Ernest Mayr, America's leading taxonomist, there are over 1 million species of animals in the world.

However, the vast majority of these are capable of surviving in water and would not need to be brought aboard the ark. Noah need make no provision for the 21,000 species of fish or the 1,700 tunicates (marine chordates like sea squirts) found throughout the seas of the world, or the 600 echinoderms including star fish and sea urchins, or the 107,000 mollusks such as mussels, clams and oysters, or the 10,000 coelenterates like corals and sea anemones, jelly fish and hydroids or the 5,000 species of sponges, or the 30,000 protozoans, the microscopic single-celled creatures.

In addition, some of the mammals are aquatic. For example, the whales, seals and porpoises. The amphibians need not all have been included, nor all the reptiles, such as sea turtles, and alligators. Moreover, a large number of the arthropods numbering 838,000 species, such as lobsters, shrimp, crabs and water fleas and barnacles are marine creatures. And the insect species among arthropoda are usually very small. Also, many of the 35,000 species of worms as well as many of the insects could have survived outside the Ark.

Doctors Morris and Whitcomb in their classic book, "The Genesis Flood," state that no more than 35,000 individual animals needed to go on the ark. In his well documented book, Noah's Ark: A Feasibility Study, John Woodmorappe suggests that far fewer animals would have been transported upon the ark. By pointing out that the word "specie" is not equivalent to the "created kinds" of the Genesis account, Woodmorappe credibly demonstrates that as few as 2,000 animals may have been required on the ark. To pad this number for error, he continues his study by showing that the ark could easily accommodate 16,000 animals.) - http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-c013.html

quote:If God exists, he gave us a "free will." But, if God is "all-knowing" then he already knows everything we are going to do ahead of time. How can a free will exist if something already knows the choices you will make?

Apples and Oranges, friend.

He knows what we will do, but He doesn't CONTROL what we do.

quote:Why would God create millions of species of animals, and then decide that only humans should be allowed to go to heaven? Why not every other animal? Is he forsaking his own creations?

God created plants and animals for man's sustinence.

Genesis 1:28 & 29 - "28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."

29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground-everything that has the breath of life in it-I give every green plant for food." And it was so."

They were for no other purpose, and they don't harbor souls.

Only man has a soul.

He is not forsaking them...He created them for a specific purpose, just as He did man.

quote:This was something someone else posted on here: Why would God create a "lake of fire" and then want to save use from it? That doesn't make any sense, God shouldn't have created any lake of fire in the first place. If I start lighting houses on fire with children inside, and then I try to save them, I wouldn't be called a "hero," I would be considered psychotic and sent to an insane asylum.

There is no "Lake of Fire".

This description was a word picture for the "torture" souls will endure once they enter eternity without being in the presence of God.

God's desire for our creation is a mystery, and He tells us in Revelation that once we enter into Heaven, all "unknowns" will be revealed to us.

I can't answer that question for Him. Only He knows why He created us as sinners, and then required that we be saved from that sin in order to gain entrance into Heaven.

You cannot parallel yourself with an Almighty, Omnipotent God. He's not human...try to remember that. (meaning: your logic cannot possibly explain Him and His behavior/actions)

quote:If heaven exists, it says in the Bible that it will be a world without sin. I don't know if I'd like that. A world without sin would be a world without free will, and free will if what makes us human. Wouldn't it be boring to live for "eternity" without being able to sin at all? What would you do to occupy yourselves? Basically everything we do can be considered a sin. If you lie, thats a sin. If you watch television and someone swears, thats a sin. If you have pre-marital sex, thats a sin. If you read a book about budda, thats a sin. If you miss church on sunday to watch the football game, thats a sin. It goes on and on.

Heaven will definitely not be boring.

Again, you are perceiving it from a limited human viewpoint.

You can't relate to what your soul feels, so you can't understand the magnificent blessing it will be to exist in the presence of our Lord God.

If you want to know what we'll be doing in Heaven, read the Bible. Revelation, in particular.

Reading a book about Buddha is NOT a sin ! Neither is hearing someone cuss (bad words are up to interpretation...they are deemed by your society. "Ass" is not a bad word, originally, but it has been manipulated to be.)

Pre-marital sex IS a sin, but only because God knows what it can do to us. I'm not going to get into that, but it's never good for us spiritually, and sometimes physically.

It is also not a sin to skip church to watch a football game. Where are you getting your info ? The Catholic Church ? Try reading the Gospels of Jesus Christ. I think you will have a very different view of God and Christianity after that.

quote:Why did God create people to be homosexual, and then decide that homosexuals are evil and are full of sin? I doubt most people choose to be homosexual, thats just the way they were made.

God didn't CREATE homosexuality. He created free will, and along with free will comes horrific psychological stains derived from sin.

Studies have shown that people are not born with homosexuality, though they can be born with psychological problems. Low self-esteem (self-loathing) is a common factor.

Having only one parent to raise you, is another. (these are just two of MANY contributing factors)

God deems homosexuality as a sin, because He created man and woman, so that they would procreate with each other. Can't do that, without the aid of science (or a surrogate), as a homosexual.

If everyone were homosexual (back at the beginning of creation), humanity would have expired. It would not have been able to self-proliferate.

It's not normal, period. (no, I am not anti-gay...I have friends that are gay, but recognize their lifestyle as sin. I sin everyday, so I can't really judge them.)

According to the Center for Disease Control in analysis after 1997: 60% of all AIDS cases in the United States are homosexual men.

The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23).

Obviously, homosexuality is taking it's toll. It is reaping what it has sewn. Sin begets suffering.

People are not born homosexual. (U.S. Center for Disease Control study.

Atlanta, 1982). Current research shows no physiological or genetic difference between homosexuals and heterosexuals. There are only genetic theories and speculations.

In Romans 1:25-27, God calls homosexuality unnatural:

"...who changed the truth of God into the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed to the ages. Amen. Because of this, God gave them up to dishonorable passions, for even their females changed the natural use to that against nature. And likewise, the males also having forsaken the natural use of the female burned in their lust toward one another, males with males working out shamefulness, and receiving back within themselves the reward which was fitting for their straying away."

In 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, God calls homosexuality unrighteous along with other sins. He also points out that homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God:

"Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be led astray; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor covetous ones, not drunkards, not revilers, not swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

In Leviticus 18:22, God calls the act of homosexuality an abomination:

"You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."

In Leviticus 20:13, God calls the act of homosexuality detestable:

"If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with women, both of them have committed a detestable act..."

quote:What about babies that are born with deformities or life-threatening diseases? What about babies that die within 30 minutes of being born, or babies that have a stillbirth? Surely babies are incabable of doing any wrong when they are born. Why would this God forsake these babies and give others a chance to live?

Honestly, I would consider passing as an infant a BLESSING ! *laughs*

Seriously, there is provision for those who perish without the sound logic to accept or reject God. (babies, down syndrome victims, etc.)

2 Samuel 12:23 - "But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me." (David makes the claim that he will join his son after death – and David was a strong believer who did rest in God for his salvation.)

Also, we read in the Gospel of Luke that John the Baptist was "filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother’s womb".

Luke 1:15 - "...for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth."

It also must be noted that the Old Testament saints were saved although they did not have a complete knowledge of the salvation act.

1 Peter 1:10-11 - "Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow."

So it is possible to be saved by God through Christ even if you don’t understand all the facts of the Gospel.

We must trust the fact that God is not willing that any should perish, but all come to repentance. Part of God’s nature is mercy and He bestows His mercy and His grace on whom He will. - http://www.comereason.org/theo_issues/theo060.asp

Also, God forsakes NO ONE. Everything is part of a plan, and His intentions are for GOOD, and not EVIL. (Jeremiah 29:11)

quote:I think the main reason people believe in christianity is because they are afraid of what will happen if they don't. Its this fear of "hell" that separates christianity from all other religions. If you sin, you're going to hell. If you don't do this and that, you're doomed to an eternity of fire and pain.

I don't agree. That may be the case for SOME people, but I feel that the number of those who believe for that reason is small.

You don't go to hell if you sin. You go to hell if you don't believe in God, accept Jesus as your savior, and repent.

quote:There have been millions of religious throughout our time, how do you know that this one is any different? The ancient egyptians prayed to the sun god, the god of love and war, and all these other gods that don't exist. The muslims pray to "allah" which is basically the same God the christians belive in.

Millions ? I doubt it. Thousands is more accurate.

I am not sure that paragraph had a point...or at least one that was relevant to your topic.

quote:How do you explain the fact that we have evidence of evolution? Mainly homo-erectus and other human-like organisms.

We have evidence of Micro-Evolution, not Macro, which is the variety of evolution that is required in order to prove the theory of Evolution 100%.

It is no secret that all organisms evolve to adapt to their environment, but to conclude that one species can mutate into another, in order to perpetuate the planet is unproven.

quote:How do you explain the fact of dinosaurs? It never mentions dinosaurs anywhere in the bible. The dinosaur bones alone date back millions of years, when according to the bible man has only been around for 7,000 years.

Wow...your inability to believe in God is solely based on your lack of understanding of the Bible. It sure DOES talk about dinosaurs !!

I very recently posted this information in another thread, but I will indulge you and post it again:

Behemoth, Leviathan, and Tanniyn are the three that are specifically mentioned.

- http://www.christiancourier.com/archives/dinosaurs.htm

- http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/dinos.shtml (FANTASTIC !)

quote:The earth has been dated as 4.7 billion years old. The bible says the earth as we know it has been around for only 7,000 years.

Correction: between 6,000 to 10,000 years.

This is based on the genealogies given in the Bible.

quote:There are many others, those are just some.

Tell me the others. I will do my best to answer them.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 10-22-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Apples and Oranges, friend.

He knows what we will do, but He doesn't CONTROL what we do.

You didn't understand the question.

If he already knows what we will do, then we don't have free will.

If he knows I am going to choose option A, instead of option B, then I can only choose option A. If I chose B, then he would have been wrong, and therefore not omniscient.

As you can see, this is the exact same paradox I asked you to answer before. I'm still waiting for an answer.

Also, see my reply to Tyrant above.

quote:Studies have shown that people are not born with homosexuality, though they can be born with psychological problems.

Either provide proof of this claim, or admit it is a lie.

There have been no studies that show that homosexuality itself cannot be pre-determined genetically.

quote:We have evidence of Micro-Evolution, not Macro, which is the variety of evolution that is required in order to prove the theory of Evolution 100%.

It is no secret that all organisms evolve to adapt to their environment, but to conclude that one species can mutate into another, in order to perpetuate the planet is unproven.

Wrong. We have evidence of both.

quote:Correction: between 6,000 to 10,000 years.

This is based on the genealogies given in the Bible.

The genealogies given in the bible mean nothing. They mean as much as those given in a Science Fiction book... http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

One thing I've always wondered: is it ever clearly explained why God detests sin?

Because he loves us? Sounds funny...but think about it. It's said "Our God is a jealous God." Also, I didn't read all the long answers, but make sure you know God didn't create Hell, free will did. I know someones gonna say "well God created free-will"

quote:You didn't understand the question.

Yes, I did. As usual, you just have a different interpretation, and thus a different answer than I do.

quote:If he already knows what we will do, then we don't have free will.

I take "free will" to mean that we are able to make our own choices.

Do you disagree ?

God doesn't FORCE us to do anything, He just KNOWS what we will do, before we do it.

I don't see how that rapes us of our "free will".

quote:If he knows I am going to choose option A, instead of option B, then I can only choose option A. If I chose B, then he would have been wrong, and therefore not omniscient.

It is not His knowledge of your choice that forces you to choose it.

You could change your mind 30 times (exhibiting your right to free will), and He would know that. The actual choice doesn't matter. Either way He will know what you chose before you chose it.

quote:As you can see, this is the exact same paradox I asked you to answer before. I'm still waiting for an answer.

Well, I'm just a stupid little sheep of a Christian, Rust.

Frankly, I don't see why you give a damn what I think.

Admit that you respect my opinion, whether you agree with it or not, or stop asking me to give you answers to questions that you have no intention of understanding, no matter HOW MUCH they make sense.

quote:Either provide proof of this claim, or admit it is a lie.

Google it yourself. You're a big boy (I think).

quote:There have been no studies that show that homosexuality itself cannot be pre-determined genetically.

No, there have been GUESSES as to why people have homosexual tendencies. Linking it to birth only serves to remove responsibility for their sexual choices, thus creating the "it's not a sin, because I was born with it" mentality.

That's bull. Besides, we're "born into sin", so even if they WERE born with it, they'd still be sinning.

quote:Wrong. We have evidence of both.

As the originator of that claim, prove it. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

That was a blatant lie.

The "missing link" is one of the MAJOR necessities in order to prove Evolution.

It hasn't been replicated, nor is there any evidence of Macro Evolution. Period.

quote:The genealogies given in the bible mean nothing. They mean as much as those given in a Science Fiction book...

Again, from a person who hasn't read it, you sure do have strong (misguided and misinformed) opinions about it.

Read it, and then tell me that it means nothing.

The timeline of the genealogies is PERFECT. Without FLAW.

Written by many different men, over a few thousand years.

It's either an uncanny coincidence that they all managed to get it right, or it's the inerrant word of God.

Saying it isn't doesn't prove that it's not.

Read it, Rust.



WHAT ARE YOU SCARED OF ?

quote:Originally posted by Mitizaa:

Because he loves us? Sounds funny...but think about it. It's said "Our God is a jealous God." Also, I didn't read all the long answers, but make sure you know God didn't create Hell, free will did. I know someones gonna say "well God created free-will"

God created hell for the punishment of the devil and his angels and not as a place for human beings to suffer.

Matthew 25:41 - "Then He will say to those on His left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

Revelation 20:10 - "And the devil who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Human beings, who are created in God's image, are not meant to spend eternity away from the presence of God. The place God created for them is heaven. Jesus spoke of this place that God has prepared for those who trust Him:

John 14:2-3 "In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also."

Hell was not created for humanity, but it is the destination for those who reject God's salvation in Jesus Christ.

God did create it. (there is nothing He didn't create)

The thing is, the Christian god doesn't just know what we will do, he's the one that sets it up. He's supposedly the ultimate cause of everything. Who introduced the causes that led to the supposed fall of man? Who was the one who created and set up the garden, serpent and humans who would believe what talking serpents said? Did the humans in that scenario then have any other choice then to do what the the Christian god knew that they would do?

Also, if Hell is everlasting punishment, what's the point? Parents normally punish or discipline their children to teach them a lesson but the punishment doesn't go on forever and then the children are supposed to learn the lesson afterwards. Hell is just gratuitous suffering.

[This message has been edited by R_I (edited 10-23-2004).]

Out of curiosity. What do you can out of the mythologies of Heaven and Hell? Does it make you feel good pretending like the Christians get a "Heaven" and everyone who doesn't believe just like them gets eternal torment in "Hell"? Is it gratifying to you to think of people suffering? Or does it just ammuse the Almighty?



Also, Cash Stealer,

The most wonderful feeling I have ever experienced was letting go of my Fear of God and my Fear of Hell. All the other fears in my life followed suit. There is a life on earth to be experienced, there are people to love, there are pleasures to feel, there are adventures to be had, there are passions to indulge and mountains to climb. The best way to celebrate the Divine is to celebrate his gift to you... LIFE! It is short, but it is wonderful. The Divine was even nice enough to give you instincts and intuitions to guide you along the way. You've been given a brilliant mind to think with and emotions to feel with. Do both as often as you can. There is NO hell for the "lost" or heaven for the Christians. The Kingdom of God is here, on Earth and we're all, every last one of us, experiencing it. The cool thing is, the Kingdom of Hell is here too, and we are all surviving it. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) Don't let people scare you into guilt or fear. You will be freer without them both.

[This message has been edited by Sempre Solipsist (edited 10-23-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Yes, I did. As usual, you just have a different interpretation, and thus a different answer than I do.

No. You didn't provide an answer since it didn't answer the paradox.

quote:I take "free will" to mean that we are able to make our own choices.

Do you disagree ?

God doesn't FORCE us to do anything, He just KNOWS what we will do, before we do it.

I don't see how that rapes us of our "free will".

I agree with that definition.

Now, here is the paradox:

An omniscient god must know what I'm going to choose tomorrow, right? To make it easy and general, lets say tomorrow I am going to have to choose between A and B.

If somebody knows, a day before I am going to choose, that I am going to choose A, then he is limiting my choice because I cannot choose B. My choice has been limited. I therefore don't have free will.

If I choose free will, then that sombody was not omniscient since he didn't know I was going to choose B. If he is omniscient then I must choose A, and therefore have no free will.



quote:It is not His knowledge of your choice that forces you to choose it.

You could change your mind 30 times (exhibiting your right to free will), and He would know that. The actual choice doesn't matter. Either way He will know what you chose before you chose it.

Wrong. The times I change my mind are irrelevant, because in the end I am FORCED to choose A, since if I were to choose B that would refute his omniscience.

You see, to claim that I have free will would be to claim that I could choose B in that scenario, which I cannot. If I could then, he wouldn't be omniscient. Which is it? Either he isn't omniscient or there is no free will.

quote:Well, I'm just a stupid little sheep of a Christian, Rust.

Frankly, I don't see why you give a damn what I think.

I give a damn, because I see religion in general, but most specifically Christianity, as against Scientifc progress, and therefore against Human and intelectual progress. Therefore, your opinion, and any influence you might have is very important to me.

quote:

Admit that you respect my opinion, whether you agree with it or not, or stop asking me to give you answers to questions that you have no intention of understanding, no matter HOW MUCH they make sense.

Circular logic.

quote:Google it yourself. You're a big boy (I think).

No. For the thousandth time, it is your claim, and therefore YOUR BURDEN OF PROOF.

Or is it your opinion that anyone should be able to make claims without providing proof?

If so, then I have an article that completely proofs Christinaity is fake... So end of argument, right? You must take my claim as true and therefore Christianity is refuted... http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

THAT's how laughable your possition is.

quote:No, there have been GUESSES as to why people have homosexual tendencies. Linking it to birth only serves to remove responsibility for their sexual choices, thus creating the "it's not a sin, because I was born with it" mentality.

That's bull. Besides, we're "born into sin", so even if they WERE born with it, they'd still be sinning.

Don't evade the argument. The fact is there are NO studies showing that homosexuality cannot genetically determined. You either lied on purpose, or were mistaken. Now either provide proof, or admit that you were lying or mistaken.

quote:As the originator of that claim, prove it.

That was a blatant lie.

The "missing link" is one of the MAJOR necessities in order to prove Evolution.

It hasn't been replicated, nor is there any evidence of Macro Evolution. Period.

1. I said evidence.

2. There are missing links. Just recently there was one found!

3. I will back it up when YOU back up your claim, or admit that you cannot. It is only fair since YOU made a claim FIRST and I am still waiting for you to back it up.

When you do either of those, then you have my word that you will get a reply with the evidence.

quote:Again, from a person who hasn't read it, you sure do have strong (misguided and misinformed) opinions about it.

1. You evaded the argument.

2. I have read it, though admitedly not entirely, and I'm not going to. I don't like such pathetic fiction.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

TWe have evidence of Micro-Evolution, not Macro, which is the variety of evolution that is required in order to prove the theory of Evolution 100%

Simply Stated

29+ Evidences of Macro-Evolution:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

Do you do any research or do you just stright out lie? I don't care about your beliefs, but I care when people like you read only christian websites for your evidence, and not take into account actual journals written by scientists... Then tell other people this bullshit...

Please post about the studies done proven homosexuality is a choice. Google didn't come up with anything... cheers

'READ IT RUST'

Hey, why should he have to read it? Have you resorted to directly shouting orders in people's faces in order for them to accept your beleifs and read the bible?

I take back the personal attack on you Digital; I apologise as it was done without thinking...

Please post the studies you've read about and I'll try to be less judgemental...

Again, my apologies...

quote:Hell was not created for humanity, but it is the destination for those who reject God's salvation in Jesus Christ.

hell? = hades? gehenna? shoel? tarturus? which?

ps. my spelling sucks i know..long time since i studied theology



[This message has been edited by jackketch (edited 10-23-2004).]

The above posts demonstrate why I tend to not bother arguing to fanatic 'believers' and their pathetic defense mechanisms, all relying on their book of fables.

You can't argue with an idiot; They'll bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

But, for those that have 'faith' in the bullshit labled creationism, try and argue with this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

It's called science, and religion involves none.

There are several studies, actually, that show the homosexuality is genetically determined, and caused by the balance of chemicals in the brain. Thus, it cannot be a sin if God "created" it, or god would, himself, be sinning.

As for the missing link, there is incredibly strong evidence that modern man was created by the crossbreeding of Homo Sapiens and Neandrethals, such as the skeletons of humans who share traits of both species of man.

As for free will creating hell, or the lake of fire, or whatever, if it was created by man why would god send people to it for torment. He's supposed to love all of his creations, so why wouldnt he forgive you of your sins rather than cook you?

I see god as being rather similar to hitler, because both of them cook jews for not beleiving.

quote:Originally posted by The_Reckoning:

You can't argue with an idiot; They'll bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

- or -

Don't argue with an idiot; people watching may not be able to tell the difference.

Cash Stealer- Feel free to rebuttle as you see fit-

Nowhere in Scripture does it say that not attending church is a sin. Nowhere in Scripture does it say we have free will. Quite the contrary- The Bible says, in both New & Old Testaments that nobody desires to seek after God. I'd be more than happy to share on this point if you'd like.

About these "flaws:"

In Genesis, there is no mention of God not continuing to create more humans after Adam & Eve. Quite simply, the Bible does not specify on this issue.

The Bible gives the measurements of Noah's boat, which has been determined by non-Christian scientists to have had adequate room to house 2 of every kind of animal. A better question would be how did Noah feed all of them? Other animals or did he store trees?

Again, on the free will, the Bible has a lot to say about God's sovereignty, but never is the term "free will" used in Scripture.

All creation was brought into existence to glorify attributes of God's character. Genesis states that humans were given dominion over the plants an animals. This statement was made a few thousand years before Greenpeace...so let's just say God saw it coming! It further says that some "vessels" are made for common use and some are made for honorable use.

And now the answer to the all to popular "Why did God make Hell" question!

God did not create sin. He created a way for sin to exist. He did this so that attributes of His character could be revealed: Forgiveness, mercy, compassion and love. Not only these, but justice and wrath. The next question to this statement normally is: "How can a loving God create people who are just destined for an eternity in Hell?" or "Isn't that prideful of God to want Himself to be glorified that much?" Is God prideful? You bet He is. But only He is Holy, Righteous and perfect. This means that his love, justice and wrath are perfect. We, has humans, don't have anything to boast about because we are all screw ups.

The other questions are great questions. And it is true that the Bible does not cover if babies go to heaven or not. It does say that we're all born into sin. The Bible does not talk about dinosaurs. Biblical scholars have dated the origin of man back to 7000 years. True, this falls short of the timeline given by science... but in all fairness, science is the thing that comes up with answers that are continually changing. Science has not been able to disprove God. Science has not been able to prove anything in the Bible wrong. Carbon dating is not accurate if the whole earth had been flooded. I think every scientist out there would agree that the earth has been covered in water, of some form, at some point, earlier that 47 million years ago. Again, the Bible, in it's original text, has not changed in in the thousands of years that it's existed. According to scientists, the earth was flat and the sun went around the world. Also with science, the first step in theory is that all things are possibilities. This means that if you believe in science, that God is a possibility!

quote:Originally posted by Cash Stealer:

Lets see... I've been raised in a christian family my whole life. There are many things I disagree with, and many things that just don't make sense to me. I'm gonna list some questions I have/flaws that I see and let you guys argue with me about them.

First off, I posted before that the Adam and Eve story doesn't make sense at all. If Adam and Eve were the first people, their children (which would be brothers and sisters) would have to have sex with each other in order to continue the human race. This would be incest, which is a "sin" in the bible.

Noah's ark doesn't make any sense either. How the hell do you fit all the species in the world in a boat. That one's just... self explainitory right there...

If God exists, he gave us a "free will." But, if God is "all-knowing" then he already knows everything we are going to do ahead of time. How can a free will exist if something already knows the choices you will make?

Why would God create millions of species of animals, and then decide that only humans should be allowed to go to heaven? Why not every other animal? Is he forsaking his own creations?

This was something someone else posted on here: Why would God create a "lake of fire" and then want to save use from it? That doesn't make any sense, God shouldn't have created any lake of fire in the first place. If I start lighting houses on fire with children inside, and then I try to save them, I wouldn't be called a "hero," I would be considered psychotic and sent to an insane asylum.

If heaven exists, it says in the Bible that it will be a world without sin. I don't know if I'd like that. A world without sin would be a world without free will, and free will if what makes us human. Wouldn't it be boring to live for "eternity" without being able to sin at all? What would you do to occupy yourselves? Basically everything we do can be considered a sin. If you lie, thats a sin. If you watch television and someone swears, thats a sin. If you have pre-marital sex, thats a sin. If you read a book about budda, thats a sin. If you miss church on sunday to watch the football game, thats a sin. It goes on and on.

Why did God create people to be homosexual, and then decide that homosexuals are evil and are full of sin? I doubt most people choose to be homosexual, thats just the way they were made.

What about babies that are born with deformities or life-threatening diseases? What about babies that die within 30 minutes of being born, or babies that have a stillbirth? Surely babies are incabable of doing any wrong when they are born. Why would this God forsake these babies and give others a chance to live?

I think the main reason people believe in christianity is because they are afraid of what will happen if they don't. Its this fear of "hell" that separates christianity from all other religions. If you sin, you're going to hell. If you don't do this and that, you're doomed to an eternity of fire and pain.

There have been millions of religious throughout our time, how do you know that this one is any different? The ancient egyptians prayed to the sun god, the god of love and war, and all these other gods that don't exist. The muslims pray to "allah" which is basically the same God the christians belive in.

How do you explain the fact that we have evidence of evolution? Mainly homo-erectus and other human-like organisms.

How do you explain the fact of dinosaurs? It never mentions dinosaurs anywhere in the bible. The dinosaur bones alone date back millions of years, when according to the bible man has only been around for 7,000 years.

The earth has been dated as 4.7 billion years old. The bible says the earth as we know it has been around for only 7,000 years.

There are many others, those are just some.

I'm curious, Does god expect us to just know which religion is the right one? Maybe the older religions had it right, you know the ones with multiple deities.

If there is no god givin way for us to know which religion is correct, than are we expected to guess? If we are, how can such a perfect being decide whether or not we will suffer for eterenity based upon a proverbial 'roll of the dice'?

That's kinda twisted.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by R_I:

Did the humans in that scenario then have any other choice then to do what the the Christian god knew that they would do?

I know this is going to sound like a cop out, but, we will never (atleast in our lifetime) know 100% whether it was possible that they could have chose (B) rather than (A), because we are looking at it from the results of their choice. The free-will vs. omniscient arguement is muddled by our limited understanding of God and the things God knows. Our thinking is that the two things are inclusive, but the all knowing God is also the all powerful God.

Let us suppose that we were able to put a video camera outside of time, so that it could view the past, present and future completely, all at the same time. But the display of that camera could be viewed in our present. You would be able to see all of my possible choices and know which path i take, without interfering with my choice. In this way, you would know my choices, but i would still have "free-will".

Also, if Hell is everlasting punishment, what's the point? Parents normally punish or discipline their children to teach them a lesson but the punishment doesn't go on forever and then the children are supposed to learn the lesson afterwards. Hell is just gratuitous suffering.

Were the punishments you recieved, Hell?

God does do that also, but the "teaching punishments" stop when we die. The "eternal punishment" begins after death, if we have not heeded the guiding of the life.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

There have been no studies that show that homosexuality itself cannot be pre-determined genetically.

So are you saying that there have been studies that show that it is(can be) genetic? Or are you saying that there have been no studies one way or the other?

xtreem5150ahm:

I know this is going to sound like a cop out, but, we will never (atleast in our lifetime) know 100% whether it was possible that they could have chose (B) rather than (A), because we are looking at it from the results of their choice. The free-will vs. omniscient arguement is muddled by our limited understanding of God and the things God knows. Our thinking is that the two things are inclusive, but the all knowing God is also the all powerful God.

If it is possible to have a different outcome from the same causes, then isn't it basically randomness? How can someone be blamed for random actions? Also, how could the Christian god's envision of what would happen be wrong?



Let us suppose that we were able to put a video camera outside of time, so that it could view the past, present and future completely, all at the same time. But the display of that camera could be viewed in our present. You would be able to see all of my possible choices and know which path i take, without interfering with my choice. In this way, you would know my choices, but i would still have "free-will".

Stop beating strawmen arguments. The thing is, the Christian god did interfere. It knew that if it created the world in such a way, Adam and Eve would sin. It then went on to do so and effectively made the choice for Adam and EVe. How is setting up the scenario for the fall of man not interfering?



Were the punishments you recieved, Hell?

God does do that also, but the "teaching punishments" stop when we die. The "eternal punishment" begins after death, if we have not heeded the guiding of the life.

The punishments were painful, but nothing compared to the supposed eternal suffering that I refer to as Hell. You are not arguing against my point. I was talking about the eternal punishment of hell that we go to in the afterlife for not heeding the Christian god or whatever and I repeat my question - what is the point of eternal punishment when punishment is supposed to end and have taught you a lesson? What is the point of learning your lesson in Hell and still be suffering forever? Or perhaps in Hell people will be in a situation where they cannot learn their lesson? That would be even worse than punishment. That would be just sadistic torture.

[This message has been edited by R_I (edited 11-06-2004).]

QUOTE Originally posted by R_I:

]xtreem5150ahm:[

I know this is going to sound like a cop out, but, we will never (atleast in our lifetime) know 100% whether it was possible that they could have chose (B) rather than (A), because we are looking at it from the results of their choice. The free-will vs. omniscient arguement is muddled by our limited understanding of God and the things God knows. Our thinking is that the two things are inclusive, but the all knowing God is also the all powerful God.

EDIT-- this sentence should have included ... so he could separate the two, and include them at the same "time".... this should have been right after "all powerful God"

If it is possible to have a different outcome from the same causes, then isn't it basically randomness?

only from our reference point, not from God's, with God's attributes.

Also, how could the Christian god's envision of what would happen be wrong?



Let us suppose that we were able to put a video camera outside of time, so that it could view the past, present and future completely, all at the same time. But the display of that camera could be viewed in our present. You would be able to see all of my possible choices and know which path i take, without interfering with my choice. In this way, you would know my choices, but i would still have "free-will".

Stop beating strawmen arguments.

i'm not sure that i understand why this is a strawman. i'm of the impression that a strawman is distorting someones position to make it easier to attack.

this was not my intention. i was just trying to explain the basic idea the way i understand how it could be an non-arguement (freewill vs. all knowing)

It knew that if it created the world in such a way, Adam and Eve would sin. It then went on to do so and effectively made the choice for Adam and EVe. How is setting up the scenario for the fall of man not interfering?

1.yes, i agree, God did know.

2. I disagree that He made the choice for ,,,them.

3. because we dont know His reason for creating and we dont know the "ending" of His intentions.

I repeat my question - what is the point of eternal punishment when punishment is supposed to end and have taught you a lesson?

the teaching part is life, the punishment is when the teaching stops. The point of eternal punishment is that God keeps His word. If you havent learned the lesson in life (salvation by grace and havent chosen to accept the gift) the pot gets discarded in Hell.

What is the point of learning your lesson in Hell and still be suffering forever?

Why does anyone need more time? Life is when to learn the lesson. Hell is not the holding back, it is the discarding of unfinished works. At that time, what one learns is of no matter....

Think of the this in terms of ancient times, of ancient rulers. If a ruler said something, it was law. If the ruler went back on his word, he was not soveriegn...he was weak...if he was weak, he would be overthrown or overrun.

<b>Think of the this in terms of ancient times, of ancient rulers. If a ruler said something, it was law. If the ruler went back on his word, he was not soveriegn...he was weak...if he was weak, he would be overthrown or overrun.</b>

Well, according to the very Christian arguments it seems you support, we cannot compare God's reasoning to human's. So I don't see how I, in good conscience can follow the advice you just gave me, while also taking the advice often espoused of not applying human logic to God. So, what am I supposed to do? Apply human logic or not?

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

So are you saying that there have been studies that show that it is(can be) genetic? Or are you saying that there have been no studies one way or the other?



I think it was clear. I'm saying no studies that claim 'homosexuality cannot be genetically determined' exist.



[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 11-07-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

<b>Think of the this in terms of ancient times, of ancient rulers. If a ruler said something, it was law. If the ruler went back on his word, he was not soveriegn...he was weak...if he was weak, he would be overthrown or overrun.</b>

Well, according to the very Christian arguments it seems you support, we cannot compare God's reasoning to human's. So I don't see how I, in good conscience can follow the advice you just gave me, while also taking the advice often espoused of not applying human logic to God. So, what am I supposed to do? Apply human logic or not?

This was a way to help the understand the concept of God's Justness, it was not advice in the sense of "do what i (john) say". Human logic is going to fall short of describing God or anything about His will, because we are not God. He gave you logic, so sure, use it, as best possible.

xtreem5150ahm:

Wow, the formatting of your post was really messed up. Just a heads up that I might be mistaken about who said what where.



only from our reference point, not from God's, with God's attributes.

So we agree that whatever the Christian god envisions has to come to pass?



Let us suppose that we were able to put a video camera outside of time, so that it could view the past, present and future completely, all at the same time. But the display of that camera could be viewed in our present. You would be able to see all of my possible choices and know which path i take, without interfering with my choice. In this way, you would know my choices, but i would still have "free-will".

You know what? I agree. The thing is though, I'm not talking about the Christian god only knowing our choices. It set things up a certain way so then only a certain sequence of events could occur.



i'm not sure that i understand why this is a strawman. i'm of the impression that a strawman is distorting someones position to make it easier to attack.

this was not my intention. i was just trying to explain the basic idea the way i understand how it could be an non-arguement (freewill vs. all knowing)

It's a strawman because you are addressing the argument of only the Christian god's omniscience versus our free will while it's the argument that includes the proposition that the Christian god created everything and set up the world and starting causes through creation that we should be concerned with. Believe it or not, I agree that just omniscience versus free will is a weaker argument but I see the merits of it like Rust has.



1.yes, i agree, God did know.

2. I disagree that He made the choice for ,,,them.

3. because we dont know His reason for creating and we dont know the "ending" of His intentions.

1. Ok, that's cool.

2. Why? Please back it up. I'll do that too. Let's say I create a virtual world and a starting

character. I choose to create the character in such a way that when presented with a choice, it

will choose the worst option(Worst being what I say is worse. It doesn't really matter in this

analogy). Now, I present the character with a choice knowing fully well that it will choose the

worst option and being the creator of said character. Lo and behold, the character chooses the

worst option. Now, was the choice of choosing the worst option not already made when I created the

character? Does the character really have any choice but to obey as it was created(ny me, no

less)?



3. I don't think that this is relevant. Why do we need to know its reason for creating and the

ending?





the teaching part is life, the punishment is when the teaching stops. The point of eternal punishment is that God keeps His word. If you havent learned the lesson in life (salvation by grace and havent chosen to accept the gift) the pot gets discarded in Hell.

Ok, let me use an anology. You are taught by your parents not to steal. This would be the teaching part and refering to this life, right? Let's say then that you do indeed steal. So, you get punished. The point of the punishment should be for you parents to teach you the lesson(again) that stealing is bad. It ends and you learn the lesson(see, I'm talking about the teaching from punishment, not from the initial situation where your parents tell you not to steal in the first place) unless your parents are sadistic people who just keep torturing you. Hell sure sounds like the situation where you are punished just for the hell(pardon the pun) of it. Punishment is fine, but it should end and a lesson should be learned. Eternal punishment is just the Christian god saying "I told you so!" forever. What is the point in that? Why did the Christian god choose to promise that?



Why does anyone need more time? Life is when to learn the lesson. Hell is not the holding back, it is the discarding of unfinished works. At that time, what one learns is of no matter....

Oh, so if someone is born and then dies then that's plenty of time to have learnt? What about people who have never had the chance to encounter the teachings? You might want to trot out the small print. You have also ddmitted that Hell serves no practical purpose. It's just suffering for the sake of suffering! How horrible.



Think of the this in terms of ancient times, of ancient rulers. If a ruler said something, it was law. If the ruler went back on his word, he was not soveriegn...he was weak...if he was weak, he would be overthrown or overrun.

If the Christian god chose not to sadistically torture people for eternity, I'm sure that it would retain its omnipotence. Would you not agree that the Christian god can just change the rules as it sees fit? If not then you open a whole can of worms where we have morality that's trancendant from the Christian god that we can just obey directly(which would warrant a whole other thread, I reckon).

QUOTE Originally posted by R_I:

You know what? I agree. The thing is though, I'm not talking about the Christian god only knowing our choices. It set things up a certain way so then only a certain sequence of events could occur.

I understand what you and Rust are saying

It's a strawman because you are addressing the argument of only the Christian god's omniscience versus our free will while it's the argument that includes the proposition that the Christian god created everything and set up the world and starting causes through creation that we should be concerned with. Believe it or not, I agree that just omniscience versus free will is a weaker argument but I see the merits of it like Rust has.

this was already pointed out in earlier posts. And this is the reason Rust and you (i think) find this to be a valid problem.

Just so that we are on the same page, i'll recap what i understand the two of you saying (not that you believe, but your arguement is from the point of non-belief):

Before the begining only God existed. During this "time" He knew that He was going to create AND He knew every aspect of all possible choices of this "future" creation. Because of His knowledge, nothing could turn out any different from the knowledge that He has. This, we can define as God's Will. Christian doctrine says that the humans that He created, have freewill. Freewill would be defined as humans having the ability to choose whether or not, to accept God. (Freewill is not directly stated in the Bible, but inferred from the reading of the Bible, and was pointed out by St. Augustine (i think)(and St Aug. was also influence by Greek Philosophy)) The arguement is that God's Will and freewill can not be. Only one of the two is possible.

Am i understanding you both, to this point?

What i have been saying (and trying to give analogies) is that we dont know the mind of God, only as far as He has revealed to us. The things that i see as unknown variables are (from my earlier post):

2. I disagree that He made the choice for ,,,them.

3. because we dont know His reason for creating and we dont know the "ending" of His intentions.

#3.. we dont know His reason for creating...we are looking at things from the POV that we are the highest creation, but the Bible describes us as pottery. Could we just be a hobby or project? i am not trying to imply that we (creation) are not important to God or that we arent loved by Him. Just saying that we dont know His purpose for creating. You used the senerio of a program... so If we dont know His purpose for making the program, we can only speculate the parameters of that program, i.e. freewill

We also dont know the intentions that He has for the "ending" of that "program. What i mean by this is, heaven and hell might not be the "ending", but part of the "program". We are only given information of this part of the "program", that we call life, from the moment of creatiion to the present, with very small glimpses of the future (prophecy).

But i think the most important variable is that, if God is All Powerful, He would have the ability to keep His Will seperate from our freewill.

If this is the case, then we, as pottery, are living pottery, forming ourselves. And any defects in the "living pottery" would be self imposed. And all defective pottery should be discarded (sent to Hell). That would be the "bad" purpose of Freewill. But the "good" purpose of Freewill would be that we "hand over" our "self-forming" to God, by believing and trusting in Him, so that He can "fix" what we have "misshaped". This is done from the work of Jesus The Christ. Using the pottery example, the Blood of Christ would fill in the defects that we made, completing the pottery of ourself, so that God looks at the finished work and is pleased. There are only two ways that the finished work could go on to the "next level of the program". #1 we make ourselves with no defect #2 we allow Jesus to fix our defects and present us to His Father. Not being perfect, #1 doesnt work.

So, in a smaller nutshell: If God is all powerful, He has the ablilty to keep His Will and Freewill, seperate...allowing us the ability to choose A or B, with His fore-knowledge but without limiting us to a particular choice.

Rust stated that Hell is sadistic, if we really dont have a choice.

You said that it is sadistic, if we cant learn from our mistakes, after being sent there.

The Bible says that all go to Hell, unless we let the Blood of The Christ complete the creation that we are.

Sadistic would mean that we are important as an unfinished product.

In an earlier post, i mentioned that freewill has too much emphasis placed on it. I said this because most people view freewill in the same way that it was used in the movie "Bruce Almighty", which is that they view freewill as liberty to do anything they want. Ultimately, this is true, but the choices given us by freewill boil down to only A or B (make yourself or let Christ complete you)



<<b>>Why does anyone need more time? Life is when to learn the lesson. Hell is not the holding back, it is the discarding of unfinished works. At that time, what one learns is of no matter....<</b>>

Oh, so if someone is born and then dies then that's plenty of time to have learnt? What about people who have never had the chance to encounter the teachings? You might want to trot out the small print. You have also ddmitted that Hell serves no practical purpose. It's just suffering for the sake of suffering! How horrible.

i'm not trying to evade this question, but let's save this for a different time. However, it has been covered several times before. i'm just not addressing this right now because the post is very long already and we are discussing freewill vs. all knowing



<<b>>Think of the this in terms of ancient times, of ancient rulers. If a ruler said something, it was law. If the ruler went back on his word, he was not soveriegn...he was weak...if he was weak, he would be overthrown or overrun.<</b>>

Would you not agree that the Christian god can just change the rules as it sees fit? If not then you open a whole can of worms where we have morality that's trancendant from the Christian god that we can just obey directly

I agree that He could, but I dont think that He would.

xtreem5150ahm:

Alright, we're going nowhere fast. Let's get back to the basics. We have to settle some definitions first. Now, keep in mind that in discussions like this I'm already prepared to let you slide with your unsupported claims about the Christian god's attributes and whatever else but there are a few definitions of the words that we are using and issues that we might disagree about. I'll offer my definitions and understandings and you can argue against them. Until we can get this settled, this discussion isn't going anywhere.

Also, if you don't mind, I would like to discuss the free will of Adam and Eve when choosing whether to eat from the tree of knowledge or not. I don't think that you would mind as if they had free will then that free will should apply to the rest of us humans as well when making the choice of accepting Jesus or not.



1) What are we arguing about?

I'm trying to show that the Christian god's omniscience and the supposed fact of it having created everything(I see this as being a bit more important then omniscience) including humans is logically imcompatible with humans having free will.



2) What is free will?

I see free will as being the ability of man such that for any given choice(in this discussion it's to choose to eat from the tree), an opposing choice could have been made also(not to eat from the tree).



3) If there is no chance of an opposing choice being chosen, is it really an available choice?

If an opposing choice has no chance of being picked, is it really an available choice that can be picked?



4) What about omnipotence?

Does omnipotence constitute the ability to do the logically impossible? If it is possible for the Christian god to violate logic then we get into all sorts of interesting problems like whether the Christian god can both exist and not exist at the same time and whether it's possible to have meaningful discussions or definitions of it. This is important as if we do get these issues settled I will present and arguement that tries to show that it is logically impossible for humans to have free will when we have supposedly been created by an omniscient and omnipotent being.

I will save my arguments for Hell and whatever else for another day as you have requested. So yeah, get back to me on those definitions and I'll present my argument.

QUOTE Originally posted by R_I:

Alright, we're going nowhere fast.

i agree.

1) What are we arguing about?

I'm trying to show that the Christian god's omniscience and the supposed fact of it having created everything(I see this as being a bit more important then omniscience) including humans is logically imcompatible with humans having free will.

i attempted to address this. If God is all poewerful, He would be able to seperate His knowledge from our freewill.

2) What is free will?

I see free will as being the ability of man such that for any given choice(in this discussion it's to choose to eat from the tree), an opposing choice could have been made also(not to eat from the tree).

and i see freewill similarly. It would be the ability to chose between 1.trusting and obeying God or 2.trusting in self and obedience to self desire

Which, i think, is basically the same as your def.

3) If there is no chance of an opposing choice being chosen, is it really an available choice?

If an opposing choice has no chance of being picked, is it really an available choice that can be picked?

This seems to be the point where our communication breaks down. Who determines whether there is a choice or not? You wanted to use Adam and Eve and the fruit (of the tree of knowledge of good and evil). In that particular case, you are saying that if God already knew what they would do, then they didnt really have any other choice, thus no freewill.

What i am saying is that being omnipotent, He would have the power to keep His Omniscience seperate from our ability to make a choice. We can only look at it from human logic. Not from God's omniscience.



4) What about omnipotence?

Does omnipotence constitute the ability to do the logically impossible?

i would have to say that i do not know. We are limited to a finite universe, and finite knowledge. Also, we are limited because we are not God, with His qualities (Omniscience, Omnipotence, Omnipresents, etc.)

How can we, being limited, confine God (who by definition) is not limited, to our limitations? We just dont know.

I've got to leave for work...i'll get back to this discussion when i can.

This has already been done people.

The only way to reconciliate omniscience and free-will is to do away with logic. The problem is, that only serves to create more problems for Christianity! In effect, refuting it!

have just spent the last half an hour reading this thread. the time would have been better spent trying to scrub out those brown stains in the bath... http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

sempre did raise something of value but it went unanswered (probably because it required some intelligence and a knowledge of the bible)

This is as aside, but the Bible mentions the flood going ten feet above the highest mountain. I'd like to point out that that much water would kill all plant life on the surface. Also, that much fresh water would dillute the salt enough to kill off all freshwater, and salt water creatures. In addition, anyone care to explain how that signifigant a flood would be a localized event? Was there just a wall of water outside the area Noah was from?

Rust:

This has already been done people.

The only way to reconciliate omniscience and free-will is to do away with logic. The problem is, that only serves to create more problems for Christianity! In effect, refuting it!

Whoa, thanks for coming in and saving us the trouble of having a discussion. Boo hoo, you think that we are boring and repeatitive, just like pretty much all the discussions in this forum. The thing is, xtreem5150ahm and I seem to be interested in passing some time with a discussion or he or myself would've fled already. Feel free to kindly ignore the parts where we post if they drive you to heavy drinking. Don't worry, we won't think any less of you for it. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)



jackketch:

have just spent the last half an hour reading this thread. the time would have been better spent trying to scrub out those brown stains in the bath...

sempre did raise something of value but it went unanswered (probably because it required some intelligence and a knowledge of the bible)

Well, quit bitching and answer sempre's thing of value unless, that is, you lack the intelligence and knowledge of the Bible required. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif) I just didn't find his post interesting or I would've replied already. Value is subjective.



xtreem5150ahm:

I haven't forgotten about you. I'll get my post together after I finish my final exam today. Speaking of which, I had better get back to last minute studying now.

If he knows we will be fuck ups...then why does he make us this way...he is the one that made us who we are and think the way we think that makes us do the things we do...If he knows ahead of time if he makes us that we will sin and disapoint him and blah blah blah he could have made something else...

Putting a camera outside time and seeing all choices someone has made without having any effect on them is like watching a movie of events that have "already happened" not things that are "going to" happen

it's two different concepts.. I agree with you rusty, god isn't watching something that has already happened.. he is watching something in progress.. so if he already knows i'm going to sin tommorrow even if he sends 50 christians to my door begging me not to.. why bother sending them or trying to get you to go to church.. its contradictory in a way you do choose what you want like free will.. it seems like free will to you.. but as you say if i'm already going to choose option a instead of b as god sees it.. its really not a choice.. it just "seems" to be a choice but if i could look at it from his point of view its not.. so its not really free will.. its just like being tricked into thinking you have free will when you don't.. but since he doesn't exist in the first place we do have free will lol

imagine a time when people were wild.. raped stole killed , basically were "out of control" in a sense.. the kings or emperors or rulers of the time had to have a way to "scare" people into a set of rules they had to follow ..IE "the ten commandmants" and what better way to do this than to say.. this "god" who sees everthing you do will make you "burn forever" if you do these things.. and so was born religion.. aka christianity, an attempt to make a "law" that could see everything you do and after a thousand years or so.. it turns into a widespread belief with followers thru time that wrote stories that were compiled and made into a book called the "bible", and finally transformed into "if you don't do this or this.. and you do this and this you'll go to hell ... its in the bible .. so its gotta be true"

quote:Originally posted by WhatISReality:

Putting a camera outside time and seeing all choices someone has made without having any effect on them is like watching a movie of events that have "already happened" not things that are "going to" happen

it's two different concepts.. I agree with you rusty, god isn't watching something that has already happened.. he is watching something in progress.. so if he already knows i'm going to sin tommorrow even if he sends 50 christians to my door begging me not to.. why bother sending them or trying to get you to go to church.. its contradictory in a way you do choose what you want like free will.. it seems like free will to you.. but as you say if i'm already going to choose option a instead of b as god sees it.. its really not a choice.. it just "seems" to be a choice but if i could look at it from his point of view its not.. so its not really free will.. its just like being tricked into thinking you have free will when you don't.. but since he doesn't exist in the first place we do have free will lol

imagine a time when people were wild.. raped stole killed , basically were "out of control" in a sense.. the kings or emperors or rulers of the time had to have a way to "scare" people into a set of rules they had to follow ..IE "the ten commandmants" and what better way to do this than to say.. this "god" who sees everthing you do will make you "burn forever" if you do these things.. and so was born religion.. aka christianity, an attempt to make a "law" that could see everything you do and after a thousand years or so.. it turns into a widespread belief with followers thru time that wrote stories that were compiled and made into a book called the "bible", and finally transformed into "if you don't do this or this.. and you do this and this you'll go to hell ... its in the bible .. so its gotta be true"

Welcome to TOTSE

quote:Originally posted by R_I:



Whoa, thanks for coming in and saving us the trouble of having a discussion. Boo hoo, you think that we are boring and repeatitive, just like pretty much all the discussions in this forum. The thing is, xtreem5150ahm and I seem to be interested in passing some time with a discussion or he or myself would've fled already. Feel free to kindly ignore the parts where we post if they drive you to heavy drinking. Don't worry, we won't think any less of you for it. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Did I say you couldn't or shouldn't post replies? Did I say you were boring or repetitive? No. I was merely adding MY 2 cents.

In a bit of hilarity, apparently you missed this and are doing exactly the same thing you're accusing me of doing! http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

Thanks for the welcome xtreem.. glad to be here.. get bored real easy... interacting with other people is the ultimate boredome cure

Rust:

Did I say you couldn't or shouldn't post replies? Did I say you were boring or repetitive? No. I was merely adding MY 2 cents.

Which was what? That what we were discussing has been done already? What did your comments imply?



In a bit of hilarity, apparently you missed this and are doing exactly the same thing you're accusing me of doing!

Ermm...ok.... Look, I got nothing against you. Just was a bit stressed out(exams) and looking too much into your comments, I guess.

quote:Originally posted by R_I:

Which was what? That what we were discussing has been done already? What did your comments imply?

Yes. They implied that that had always been the end result. That does not equal me saying that you're boring, or that you shouldn't argue. I couldn't care less what you do.

Incest wasnt a sin in that time. Murder is a capital offense but God gave Cain a sign that no one would kill him. Moses wrote the Law centuries after all of this. Besides, incest is a sin because it pollutes the gene pool. But at the dawn of man, the pool was nearly perfect, so mutations were next to impossible.

Noahs ark didnt contain ALL he animals species. 2 of all unclean animals and 7 of all clean animals. Fish had to tough it out. The actual size of the Ark could concievably hold all the animals if they were baby animals or sufficiently small.

God knows what is going to happen in a timeframe that consists of all time of our universe. Like knowing everything that happened after the fact but because God supercedes time...well you know. But it all comes down to that YOU are not God and YOU dont know what God knows you will do, therefore in your mind you have free will because you do not know what choice you will make. You dont know what the future is that you make so free will is only available to humans.

Created animals could concievibly be in heaven. What a dull place it would be with only Godhead, saved humans, and angels. But humans were created in the likeness of God, not animals. Also the Bible says we are the "apple of his eye" We are loved over animals.

God made the lake of fire for Satan and the insurrection only. But unsaved humans HAVe to go somewhere when they die. They surely cant go to heaven and we all have violated Gods laws.

Free will is free will. Suppose you are on the sidewalk and you see an old woman that wants to cross the street, but you also see a needy person. Should you pity the man or the old woman? Both choices are for good. What will you do for leisure? Im not sure, but we will certainly know everyone. We can all socialize. I take it your not saved, so most of my answers will not make sense. Sorry. Ohh, reading about bhuddah isnt a sin. Thinking his philosophy is true however is.

God doesnt create a fag and then damn them to hell. How cruel that would be. Make up your own mind about how a fag is made, but make the right one.

Babies cant do anything wrong, they dont understand what they do. I would suppose god would take them to heaven and give them a chance to believe in Jesus. But He allows children to die because He feels that the child's work here is finished. The repercussions are to teach others a lesson.

Recently a friend was accidentally shot by another friend. My uncle who is the schools coach told the fellows at practice and 2 kids got saved. See my point?

Most people believe in other religions without proof of anything. Then you have those who believe in philosophies. Their creators are dead in the grave. False gods? You have no proof that they exist. God of the Bible inspires people over the span of centuries to make a book that contradicts itself at no time is certainly enough to make you believe that He might exist.

Allah isnt the same god. Compare the qurhan and the Bible. Completely different philosophies.

Evidence of evolutioon can also be equal for creationism. Explain the human footprint in the footprint of the dinosaur in Texas. nuff said.

Bottom line: Evolution cannot be proven, but neither can creationism. However evolution can be contrdicted by statistics alone.

Read the book of Job, dinosaurs are there near the end. Carbon dating (which is highly inaccurate under specific conditions) rates the earth at 4.7 billion years. But who is to say Adam and Eve didnt live on the Earth for 4.7 billion years before they sinned?

Evolution goes back to its beginning, the big bang. Where did that energy come from? If an event creats an entire universe with specific laws, why did it make a law (thermodynamics) that directly contradicts itself?

Christian Catch-22's:

1. You can't understand God, because God is beyond all mortal reasoning.

2. It is part of God's plan. His master plan. THE PLAN!!

Feel free to add as you see fit.

Jesus definitely existed. Now his miracles and his title "son of god" that’s what I would argue. Quite possibly Jesus could have been a "self fulfilling prophecy" people back 2000 or so years ago were extremely uneducated, and gullable , they followed a leader and did what ever he or she told them. This is very evident to the fact that people were ruled by kings. Kings fought other kingdoms, People believed that their king was right, thought nothing of it and did what ever their king said to. This still happens today just not as large and people can be more critical and actually realize what’s going on most of the time. Now if you want to argue that people were as sophisticated as us you can try but my proof that they weren’t is that, people have been progressively smarter. This is proven by the fact that our technology is far superior to the people living 2000+ years ago. Also if god does exist where is he now? Did he die? And how come god does not perform miracles in the present? He had little problem with miracles in the past. Maybe he has abandoned us? Maybe all the theories of gods are correct. Gods can be far superior alien species. They all created humans or humans are they're offspring without their influence. This fitting the creation in his own image statement in the bible. Then all the aliens abandon us because we were boring? Killing each other? Who knows? Or maybe all but one of them abandon us the one that stays behind makes sure we don’t exceed our original purpose for the experiment. The one "God" puts rules and commandments into place ensuring that they will not be overcome by us their own creations. And of course they will eventually exterminate us,(see revelations)because we pose such a great threat to them. Are we an experiment?

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

Carbon dating (which is highly inaccurate under specific conditions) rates the earth at 4.7 billion years. But who is to say Adam and Eve didnt live on the Earth for 4.7 billion years before they sinned?

Carbon dating is only good up to a maximum of about 50 thousand years (acording to half-life of C14)...no where near billions of years.

As far as your statement of Adam and Eve, this is why they could not have lived 4.7 billion years before they sinned....the bible states that Adam lived 930 years

Edited to change dollar sign to the numeral 'four'



[This message has been edited by xtreem5150ahm (edited 11-11-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:



Noahs ark didnt contain ALL he animals species. 2 of all unclean animals and 7 of all clean animals. Fish had to tough it out. The actual size of the Ark could concievably hold all the animals if they were baby animals or sufficiently small.



A deluge such as the one required to flood the entire earth to a depth of several miles, would have destroyed all plant life and sudden change in salinity would have killed all the corals and the majority , if not all, of the creatures of the oceans.When the waters receeded(where they receeded to is another mystery), there would have nothing for the animals on the ark to eat.How do you propose that they could have survived? The carnivores would have caused the extinction of the majority of the herbivores much quicker than they could breed, and the herbivores would have starved due to the lack of vegetation.

Free will is free will. Suppose you are on the sidewalk and you see an old woman that wants to cross the street, but you also see a needy person. Should you pity the man or the old woman? Both choices are for good. What will you do for leisure? Im not sure, but we will certainly know everyone. We can all socialize. I take it your not saved, so most of my answers will not make sense. Sorry. Ohh, reading about bhuddah isnt a sin. Thinking his philosophy is true however is.

If the end choice is known in advance, free will does not exist. The choice is predetermined.The person merely has the perception that the choice is their's to make.

God doesnt create a fag and then damn them to hell. How cruel that would be. Make up your own mind about how a fag is made, but make the right one.

God supposedly created everything.



Babies cant do anything wrong, they dont understand what they do. I would suppose god would take them to heaven and give them a chance to believe in Jesus. But He allows children to die because He feels that the child's work here is finished. The repercussions are to teach others a lesson.

Recently a friend was accidentally shot by another friend. My uncle who is the schools coach told the fellows at practice and 2 kids got saved. See my point?

Ever heard of "original sin"? According to the bible, you are born with sin.Where exactly in the bible are the scriptures to support the suppositions you present?



Most people believe in other religions without proof of anything. Then you have those who believe in philosophies. Their creators are dead in the grave. False gods? You have no proof that they exist. God of the Bible inspires people over the span of centuries to make a book that contradicts itself at no time is certainly enough to make you believe that He might exist.

Allah isnt the same god. Compare the qurhan and the Bible. Completely different philosophies.

The thing is , that the bible god cannot be proven to exist any more than the *false gods* you speak of.

Evidence of evolutioon can also be equal for creationism. Explain the human footprint in the footprint of the dinosaur in Texas. nuff said.

Bottom line: Evolution cannot be proven, but neither can creationism. However evolution can be contrdicted by statistics alone.

Actually, there is a huge amount of evidence , which is available to anyone willing to look at it, which supports evolution.

The footprints you speak of, were long ago proven to be dinosaur prints. They are not human.nuff said.

What statistics that contradict evolution , from any reputable source,can you provide to support your claim?



Read the book of Job, dinosaurs are there near the end. Carbon dating (which is highly inaccurate under specific conditions) rates the earth at 4.7 billion years. But who is to say Adam and Eve didnt live on the Earth for 4.7 billion years before they sinned?

First, you obviously have no understanding of dating methods.Second, Adam, according to the bible, lived 900+ years, not 4.7 billion.So, god was the one to say so.

Evolution goes back to its beginning, the big bang. Where did that energy come from? If an event creats an entire universe with specific laws, why did it make a law (thermodynamics) that directly contradicts itself?

Evolution has nothing to do with the big bang theory. They are two individual theories which do not depend on each other.The big bang deals with the origin of the universe.Evolution deals with the changes in life forms from simple single cell organisms , to the diverse beings which inhabit the earth today.Evolution does not even make claims to the origin of life.That theory is abiogenesis.

The law of thermodynamics is obviously misrepresented or misunderstood by those who claim that it contradicts evolution. The earth is not a completely closed system .There is an external source of energy. It's known as the sun.





[This message has been edited by truckfixr (edited 11-11-2004).]

xtreem5150ahm:

i attempted to address this. If God is all poewerful, He would be able to seperate His knowledge from our freewill.

Again, you do not address the proposition that it created everything as well.



and i see freewill similarly. It would be the ability to chose between 1.trusting and obeying God or 2.trusting in self and obedience to self desire

Which, i think, is basically the same as your def.

Looks good. I think that's settled.



This seems to be the point where our communication breaks down. Who determines whether there is a choice or not? You wanted to use Adam and Eve and the fruit (of the tree of knowledge of good and evil). In that particular case, you are saying that if God already knew what they would do, then they didnt really have any other choice, thus no freewill.

Wrong. I'm saying that if the Christian god knew everything and created the starting scenario then Adam and Eve could not have done otherwise apart from what the Christian god had already envisioned.



What i am saying is that being omnipotent, He would have the power to keep His Omniscience seperate from our ability to make a choice. We can only look at it from human logic. Not from God's omniscience.

I'm going to show that it's logically impossible for Adam and Eve to have had free will when the Christian god created the world and had omniscience.



i would have to say that i do not know. We are limited to a finite universe, and finite knowledge. Also, we are limited because we are not God, with His qualities (Omniscience, Omnipotence, Omnipresents, etc.)

How can we, being limited, confine God (who by definition) is not limited, to our limitations? We just dont know.

So you are saying that we cannot have a meaningful discussion about the Christian god? Fair enough.



Ok, here's my argument that it's logically impossible for Adam and Eve to have had free will when the Christian god created the universe and had omniscience. You can abandon logic and say it's all ok(like Rust said), but this is the part where I part ways with you. If we cannot discuss the Christian god using logic, then let's not have any more discussions as they will be just meaningless(to us) speculation.

1. God, being omnipotent, has the option of choosing an infinite number of potential universes to create.

2. God, being omniscient, foresees what the resulting timeline in any of those universes will be.

3. Each possible initial state of the universe will have a different resulting timeline.

4. One would only need to create the appropriate start state to watch it unfold into the desired end state.

5. There being an infinite number of alternative universes fine-tuned from the beginning to produce the desired result, any and all events in the created universe are by definition precisely the ones God wanted.

So, Adam and Eve had no choice but to unfold events as the Christian god wanted. Their choice to sin was in fact the Christian god's choice for them to sin. They could not have done otherwise and I maintain that a choice that has zero percent probabilty of being chosen is not really a choice. And if only one choice is possible then that's not free will.

EDIT: Messed up tags.

[This message has been edited by R_I (edited 11-11-2004).]

Part of the problem you are all having is that you ar reading both the hebrew scriptures and the New Testement in a fundementalist view point. Many of the stories in the bible are hyberbolized to prove a theological point. For example, the whole noah's ark thing. The point is not did God wipe out all of the world, and how did he fit all the animals in ther ark. the point of ths story is that God will support and take care of you if you are good moral person. God kill sal lthe people on earth because they are wicked. The sotires are used to prove a poitn not to provide a pure historicla account.

Who are you to tell us what is to be taken literally or not? By what standards is this judged by?

quote:Originally posted by Prawk lives:

Part of the problem you are all having is that you ar reading both the hebrew scriptures and the New Testement in a fundementalist view point. Many of the stories in the bible are hyberbolized to prove a theological point. For example, the whole noah's ark thing. The point is not did God wipe out all of the world, and how did he fit all the animals in ther ark. the point of ths story is that God will support and take care of you if you are good moral person. God kill sal lthe people on earth because they are wicked. The sotires are used to prove a poitn not to provide a pure historicla account.

NO...the problem is that too many people here don't treat the bible as an historical document enough! and haven't learned to read whats on the page, the way the author intended but rather they read their own prejudicies.

Everybody is biased and will read the Bible with their own preconceptions. There's really no way to tell whose intepretation is the valid one.

Yeah, I wouldn't take any religious text to be the final pièce de résistance final authroity arbiter of reality.

The basic method for all of them is the same. 'Some really insane shit that violates all known scientific principles happened in the past, it doesn't happen anymore to prove the religion true, don't try to objectively rationalize it, take it on faith, believe my religion'.

quote:Originally posted by R_I:

xtreem5150ahm:

i attempted to address this. If God is all poewerful, He would be able to seperate His knowledge from our freewill.

Again, you do not address the proposition that it created everything as well.



and i see freewill similarly. It would be the ability to chose between 1.trusting and obeying God or 2.trusting in self and obedience to self desire

Which, i think, is basically the same as your def.

Looks good. I think that's settled.



This seems to be the point where our communication breaks down. Who determines whether there is a choice or not? You wanted to use Adam and Eve and the fruit (of the tree of knowledge of good and evil). In that particular case, you are saying that if God already knew what they would do, then they didnt really have any other choice, thus no freewill.

Wrong. I'm saying that if the Christian god knew everything and created the starting scenario then Adam and Eve could not have done otherwise apart from what the Christian god had already envisioned.



What i am saying is that being omnipotent, He would have the power to keep His Omniscience seperate from our ability to make a choice. We can only look at it from human logic. Not from God's omniscience.

I'm going to show that it's logically impossible for Adam and Eve to have had free will when the Christian god created the world and had omniscience.



i would have to say that i do not know. We are limited to a finite universe, and finite knowledge. Also, we are limited because we are not God, with His qualities (Omniscience, Omnipotence, Omnipresents, etc.)

How can we, being limited, confine God (who by definition) is not limited, to our limitations? We just dont know.

So you are saying that we cannot have a meaningful discussion about the Christian god? Fair enough.



Ok, here's my argument that it's logically impossible for Adam and Eve to have had free will when the Christian god created the universe and had omniscience. You can abandon logic and say it's all ok(like Rust said), but this is the part where I part ways with you. If we cannot discuss the Christian god using logic, then let's not have any more discussions as they will be just meaningless(to us) speculation.

1. God, being omnipotent, has the option of choosing an infinite number of potential universes to create.

2. God, being omniscient, foresees what the resulting timeline in any of those universes will be.

3. Each possible initial state of the universe will have a different resulting timeline.

4. One would only need to create the appropriate start state to watch it unfold into the desired end state.

5. There being an infinite number of alternative universes fine-tuned from the beginning to produce the desired result, any and all events in the created universe are by definition precisely the ones God wanted.

So, Adam and Eve had no choice but to unfold events as the Christian god wanted. Their choice to sin was in fact the Christian god's choice for them to sin. They could not have done otherwise and I maintain that a choice that has zero percent probabilty of being chosen is not really a choice. And if only one choice is possible then that's not free will.

EDIT: Messed up tags.

[This message has been edited by R_I (edited 11-11-2004).]



Bump

Sorry, i havent forgotten, or ignored this. Just havent really had the time to work on this yet. And been kinda lazy/ tired.

Not till the looms are silent

and the shuttle

ceases to fly

Will God unroll the canvas

and reaveal

the reason why;

the dark threads are as needful in the weaver's

skillful hands,

as the threads of gold and silver in the pattern he has planned.

Found that somewhere and thought I'd post it...

the bible was simply a book of metaphors and fables to teach us life lessons. look at adam and eve as a story about right and wrong. adam and eve are children (of god) and disobey their parents. sounds simplified? people have been reading too much into the bible for 2 thousand years. storys and myths were how people communicated before the invention of the printed word, and the bible was the first book to be printed.

How they hell do you know that animals dont have a soul? My dog sure enough seems to have a soul. He expresses regret, remorse, ecstasy, sadness and fear. He definately thinks of whats going to get him in trouble or not. Just look into his eyes and tell me he does not have a soul. Also look into a cats eyes and tell me it doesnt have a soul *look at what the Egyptians believed*...or any other animal in fact. I know that sharks have cold dead eyes. But there has to be a need for something somewhere in there.

I believe that your dog IS a soul... *runs off to find quote*

Genesis, 1:20

'And God went on to say: "Let the waters swarm forth a swarm of living souls and let flying creatures fly over the earth upon the face of the expanse of the heavens."'

thats my interpretation of that little bit. My RE teacher thinks I'm talking rubbish, but I don't care.

My favourite from the person who helped me find my way back to Wicca...

'I am the Christian god.'

'No you're not, you're a pagan who will burn in hell for believing in Jesus.'

'No, I REALLY am your god.'

'Prove it then, heretic'

'Ah ah ah ah... 'Thou shalt not put your god to the test, remember?'

quote:Originally posted by Cash Stealer:



[QUOTE][b]Why did God create people to be homosexual, and then decide that homosexuals are evil and are full of sin? I doubt most people choose to be homosexual, thats just the way they were made.

God didn't CREATE homosexuality. He created free will, and along with free will comes horrific psychological stains derived from sin.

Studies have shown that people are not born with homosexuality, though they can be born with psychological problems. Low self-esteem (self-loathing) is a common factor.

I am a homosexual male, and I fear to tell you that I ahve NO self loathing, high self-esteem, and High self worth feelings.

Having only one parent to raise you, is another. (these are just two of MANY contributing factors)

Well, I had a happy childhood, two parents, a sexually molestation free childhood. I was raised in a Jesus household, I sang in church, and all that. I had a great time in school, until the discovery of homosexuality, then I was teased and tormented. I lived and learned.

God deems homosexuality as a sin, because He created man and woman, so that they would procreate with each other. Can't do that, without the aid of science (or a surrogate), as a homosexual.

90% of all mammals engage in homosexual activity. If you doubt me, then I will mail you a copy of my Bsc. Biology spec. Zoollogy and my Masters in Zoological studies.

ON top of that, the fact that there are women and men who cannot bare children, bless their souls, means, by your definition, that they are abominations. Poor thoughts eh? Well its the fact that your stating it thats poor.

If everyone were homosexual (back at the beginning of creation), humanity would have expired. It would not have been able to self-proliferate.

I agree. But does that mean that there were no homosexuals? Doubtful.

It's not normal, period. (no, I am not anti-gay...I have friends that are gay, but recognize their lifestyle as sin. I sin everyday, so I can't really judge them.)

OH WOW< YOUR NOT ANTI-GAY!!!!! I am convinced......yea right.

According to the Center for Disease Control in analysis after 1997: 60% of all AIDS cases in the United States are homosexual men.

Very true, but that is not becasue of homosexuality, that is because bad sexual decisions.

0% of young gay males comes home pregnant, its a ticket to heaven.

The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23).

Obviously, homosexuality is taking it's toll. It is reaping what it has sewn. Sin begets suffering.

Most gay people dont suffer, I am gay, so I know alot.

Another thing, up until recent times, Christians received ALOT of suffering. They must be sinning, and and and (wait for it).................. They caused most of it!!

People are not born homosexual. (U.S. Center for Disease Control study.

Atlanta, 1982). Current research shows no physiological or genetic difference between homosexuals and heterosexuals. There are only genetic theories and speculations.

1982???? thats funny.....I am scientist, and wrote my Thesis for my Bsc. on Homosexuality and mammals. And well, there are studies that do proves diff. between Hetero and Homosexual people.

(Excuse the LONG list):

On the sex chromosome loci: Xq28 ( for those without Bio degrees, thats a area on DNA that is generalized by a spec. sequence.)The NIH indicates that there is a correlation between a specific chromosomal region in human males and homosexuality. The NIH is the national Institute of Health.

There are also plenty of brain diff.s in the region of the brain known as the Hypothalamus. This is mainly a part of the brain that deals with hormonal activity, as directed by the pituitary gland. The diencephalon ( both the hypothalamus and thalamus) control the pituitary glands. The pituitary glands control the endocrin system, which controls sexual arousal, and many other things. The act of arousal is brought on my many factors of visual, auditory, and touch sensations. The part of the brain responsible for the interchange of this information is the hypothalamus, and the decision as to whether or not the information causes arousal on a sexual level IS SCIENTIFICALLY PROVEN TO NOT BE CONCIOUS. (sorry, needed that) Therefore, whether or not the person being aroused is being aroused by male or by female is not done on a concious level. It is controlled by factors that effect whether or not a person makes a good mate. Females, biologically, require rounded hips, well formed breasts ect... and males require strength and endurance.

Well then lets get all the people that are not the 100% best at childbirth and raising, and tell them they are going to hell because of their gentics. *shudder* gonna be fun!!

OH wait, priests are not permitted children? hrmm wont go there, then I will badgered with THATS ONLY ROMAN CATHOLIC, and THOSE Jesus lovers are wrong, and we're right.

In Romans 1:25-27, God calls homosexuality unnatural:

"...who changed the truth of God into the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed to the ages. Amen. Because of this, God gave them up to dishonorable passions, for even their females changed the natural use to that against nature. And likewise, the males also having forsaken the natural use of the female burned in their lust toward one another, males with males working out shamefulness, and receiving back within themselves the reward which was fitting for their straying away."

In 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, God calls homosexuality unrighteous along with other sins. He also points out that homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God:

"Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be led astray; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor covetous ones, not drunkards, not revilers, not swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

In Leviticus 18:22, God calls the act of homosexuality an abomination:

"You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."

In Leviticus 20:13, God calls the act of homosexuality detestable:

"If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with women, both of them have committed a detestable act...



(FOR ALL OF ABOVE SEE QUOTE):

[B]"Once again, you must realize that when arguing matters of interfaith, refering to the bible doesnt help, because if I dont believe it to be real, how is stating it going to convince me?"

UnDeRrAtEd, I don't think he was trying to convince anyone, but merely stating what the Bible and what God says.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

Bump

Sorry, i havent forgotten, or ignored this. Just havent really had the time to work on this yet. And been kinda lazy/ tired.

R_I, i havent forgotten, and i have been pondering how best to address our discussion. Please allow me more time.

I still say that you are basically saying the same thing as Rust, so i feel that i have answered (even though not good enough).

While you are being patient, consider whether this might be our obstacle especially verse 14:

NIV 1 Corinthians 2:1-16

1 Corinthians 2

1. When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God.

2. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.

3. I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling.

4. My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power,

5. so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power.

6. We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.

7. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.

8. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9. However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him" --

10. but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.

11. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

12. We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.

13. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.

14. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15. The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:

16. "For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

quote:Originally posted by alchemist:

the bible was simply a book of metaphors and fables to teach us life lessons. look at adam and eve as a story about right and wrong. adam and eve are children (of god) and disobey their parents. sounds simplified? people have been reading too much into the bible for 2 thousand years. storys and myths were how people communicated before the invention of the printed word, and the bible was the first book to be printed.

Arent you reading into the Bible, by saying that it is "a book of metaphors and fables to teach us life lessons" ? And if that is the case, whose understanding of the myths and metaphors are to be followed?

By reading and understanding it as literal as possible, wouldnt that be contrary to "reading into it" ?

My belief is that it is both. Primarily literal... that is where one can derive the secondary messages of how to live life.

John 3:12

12. I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

xtreem5150ahm:



R_I, i havent forgotten, and i have been pondering how best to address our discussion. Please allow me more time.

Take your time. I'm sure that you would extend such courtesy to me as well if I should need it. As to where you should go from now, take a look at the argument I had at the end of my post. Dispute the propositions or the conclusion(like point out that it is a non sequitur or something). That's how logical debates usually work.



I still say that you are basically saying the same thing as Rust, so i feel that i have answered (even though not good enough).

No, I am not. I use the proposition that the Christian god created everything as an important point. Rust never mentioned such a thing(as far as I can tell after skimming through the posts).

If I recall correctly, to address his argument you just claimed that the Christian god could just use his omnipotence to sort it all, right? That's disputable if it's logically impossible to do so(I've been trying to demonstrate that) and you have not really expounded on it. Seems too much like a cop out answer to me. Keep in mind though that while my argument similar to Rust's, it's ultimately different (and I would say a bit more complex) so concentrate on what I say.



While you are being patient, consider whether this might be our obstacle especially verse 14:

Okies.



NIV 1 Corinthians 2:1-16

1 Corinthians 2

1. When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God.

2. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.

3. I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling.

4. My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power,

5. so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power.

6. We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.

7. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.

8. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9. However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him" --

10. but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.

11. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

12. We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.

13. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.

14. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15. The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:

16. "For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

First of all, you have not demonstrated that the Bible is a reliable source of information.

The claims in that passage are just unsupported assertions. Demonstrate the existence of "the Spirit" and maybe you have something to go on. I could rewrite the passage and substitute other words and in doing so I would produce a passage that is just as strong as yours. An argument that is as strong as the opposing one has no persuasive power whatsoever.

Needing faith, to me is the abandonment of logic, reason and evidence in order to believe a claim. But logic, reason, and evidence are our only means to evaluate any claim! (taken from an somewhere)

Faith is the admission that there is no good reason, logic, evidence, to actually believe in God. But if this is the case, then why believe? Should we believe as a matter of choice? Simply because we want to? Why then is your faith true and everybody else's wrong?

If you insist on us using faith then let's just cease our discussion. I've only got logic, reason and evidence to work with.

Very well said.,

I mean, I will not go as far as to say that he bible of wrong, or thats its not the word of God.

God is perfect , true, but humnas are not, humans will currupt, change, alter to form his needs at the time within the limits of his/her power. I dont believe that the bible inits entirety are the words of God. I do believe that some is, but you must realize that when Jesus came is was to lay down the law. This law was written by people many years after the fact. It was then translated many times over. Many people in power have been known to alter the bible along its course to gain power over God fearing people. A pope in the 14th century was believed to have destroyed vatican parts of a document that was part of the bible, because of what it said.

I just belive that you shoudl be a good person, and hold faith in your heart. The bible is very unreliable as a source of faith, let alone a practise of religion. I dont think anyone is really going to "hell" as place, although I do belive that hell is simply a state of mind when Gods grace is turned from someone.

And freewill we do have, but its the same tyranic will of parents. WE have freewill to do what we want. But if we dont do what God wants, we are going to hell. So its a trick existance, and I dont believe thats what God meant, I truly dont. I beleive we are here to learn, to expand, why else would God have created such a complex world.

R_I,

I'm throwing in the towel reguarding our discussion. I've thought about it very much. Although i believe the assertions i've made whole-heartedly, i can find no thing to explain them adequately (ive even went to my pastor for help, and he said pretty much what ive already tried).

Some of the avenues that i have concidered, would, at best, continue this merry-go-round... and at worse, increase your unbelief.

I have found a few web sites with technical "papers" that dealt with it quite thoroughly. I understood them good enough for myself, but not well enough to "teach" ("argue"--but i hesitate to use this word, because arguing is not my purpose on TOTSE).

All i can say is, i'm sorry ... i conceed.

xtreem5150ahm:

R_I,

I'm throwing in the towel reguarding our discussion. I've thought about it very much. Although i believe the assertions i've made whole-heartedly, i can find no thing to explain them adequately (ive even went to my pastor for help, and he said pretty much what ive already tried).

So, you are saying that you do have a valid argument but it's just that you don't know how to explain it to me? I still hold the position that you do not have one to begin with.



Some of the avenues that i have concidered, would, at best, continue this merry-go-round... and at worse, increase your unbelief.

Alright, fair enough.



I have found a few web sites with technical "papers" that dealt with it quite thoroughly. I understood them good enough for myself, but not well enough to "teach" ("argue"--but i hesitate to use this word, because arguing is not my purpose on TOTSE).

Well, please point me to these papers then.



All i can say is, i'm sorry ... i conceed.

It's cool. Tell me though, is it your faith that will let you brush this off? Keep in mind that I ask this before reading any of the papers that I ask you to recommend. They might contain an argument that works.

quote:Originally posted by R_I:

xtreem5150ahm:

R_I,

I'm throwing in the towel reguarding our discussion. I've thought about it very much. Although i believe the assertions i've made whole-heartedly, i can find no thing to explain them adequately (ive even went to my pastor for help, and he said pretty much what ive already tried).

So, you are saying that you do have a valid argument but it's just that you don't know how to explain it to me? I still hold the position that you do not have one to begin with.



Some of the avenues that i have concidered, would, at best, continue this merry-go-round... and at worse, increase your unbelief.

Alright, fair enough.



I have found a few web sites with technical "papers" that dealt with it quite thoroughly. I understood them good enough for myself, but not well enough to "teach" ("argue"--but i hesitate to use this word, because arguing is not my purpose on TOTSE).

Well, please point me to these papers then.



All i can say is, i'm sorry ... i conceed.

It's cool. Tell me though, is it your faith that will let you brush this off? Keep in mind that I ask this before reading any of the papers that I ask you to recommend. They might contain an argument that works.



i will only respond to this last part.

I dont feel as though i am brushing it off, but yes, it is my faith along with my understanding. You see, my faith tells me that God's Word is true. And in God's Word it says that all things are God's Will. (which would imply that we have no will, free or otherwise). But God's Word also tells us to, (among other things), "Go ye therefore and teach all nations..." (which implies that at least some people have the ability to have and make choices).

Please remember that i have stated earlier that i felt that free-will was overstated or overemphasized by people. This and God's omniscience is the reason for that belief.