K. I'm gonna try to tell this without sounding any hoakier than absolutely necessary. My friend was told by some guy, apparently a pagan that she should burn a bonfire some time in October, during the full moon. He also mentioned something about it was important because it was her sixteenth year, and she said he mentioned the word acolyte. Best I can find on google, acolyte is just a servant, or in a magickal order the lowest order of the group. I'd like to know more about this supposed ritual if anyone could tell me anything. Thank you.

Probably some sort of coming of age ceremony. Could be acult...could be wiccan.. could be alot of things.

quote:Originally posted by firebird:

K. I'm gonna try to tell this without sounding any hoakier than absolutely necessary. My friend was told by some guy, apparently a pagan that she should burn a bonfire some time in October, during the full moon. He also mentioned something about it was important because it was her sixteenth year, and she said he mentioned the word acolyte. Best I can find on google, acolyte is just a servant, or in a magickal order the lowest order of the group. I'd like to know more about this supposed ritual if anyone could tell me anything. Thank you.



First of all, you should be performing ANY rituals that you don't understand the reasoning behind each and every step. Remember, what is important is performing a ritual that represents her intent and desire for herself. Don't listen to people telling you to perform this or that ritual - it will usually turn out very boring for you.

probably at the time of Semain/semane -the feast of the dead (various spellings) ie all hallows eve.

lighting a fire in itself is an act of worship but don't see why her being 16 plays any role.

13 is the age of maturity for wiccan girls.(or better still 'first moon')

[This message has been edited by jackketch (edited 10-24-2004).]

It is not a ritual but one of our Sabbats.

Samhain Eve is one of the principal festivals falling on or around the October 31st. It represents the final harvest.

Bonfires played a large part in the festivities. Villagers cast the bones of the slaughtered cattle upon the flames. (the word bonfire is thought to derive from these "bone fires.") With the bonfire ablaze, the villagers extinguished all other fires. Each family then solemnly lit their hearth from the common flame, thus bonding the families of the village together. It was also said that stones were marked with peoples names then they were thrown into the fire, to be retrieved in the morning. The condition of the retrieved stone foretold of that person's fortune in the coming year. Ashes were spread over the harvested fields to protect and bless the land.



What her being 16 has anything to do with I dont know. It is the festival of endings and transformation. Not anything to do with a coming of age.

There are no specific rituals that have a date to them, the only thing he could be talking about was a Sabbat.

quote:What her being 16 has anything to do with I dont know. It is the festival of endings and transformation. Not anything to do with a coming of age.





yeah that was what i thought but since posting it has occurred to me that if this 'group' (where this girl is) uses any form of sexual magic then being 16 would mean she could take part legally (in most countries).

maybe this is what was meant?

sounds weird.

Here's something I want to know: why the extra k?

To make it extra "kool?"

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:



yeah that was what i thought but since posting it has occurred to me that if this 'group' (where this girl is) uses any form of sexual magic then being 16 would mean she could take part legally (in most countries).

maybe this is what was meant?

there is no sexual aspect invovled with Samhain, maybe if it was Beltane..but not Samhain. sorry..sounds like this guy is confused..or is talking about some personal thing he does...not a wiccan thing.

quote:Originally posted by The_Rabbi:

Here's something I want to know: why the extra k?

To make it extra "kool?"



extra k in what?



[This message has been edited by SecretVenus (edited 10-25-2004).]

The extra k in "magick"

quote:Originally posted by The_Rabbi:

The extra k in "magick"



Don't know. Always found that kind of lame myself. However, they want to distinguish religious magic from entertainment magic.

The extra K is a bad habit on my part. I went through what I like to call a dumfuck phase where I "dabbled" in certain things, and most of the things I read were allegedly old and spelled it like that, I dunno. I doubt highly that it has any sort of sexual aspect, because the guy isn't even going to be there from what I've understood, all he's told her to do, least that she's telling me is to light a bonfire. Sempre Solipsist, your thoughts on the ritual is exactly what I was thinking, its one of the things I told her when she first mentioned it. I also added in dangerous, but that's because I kinda sorta know the guy who told her this and his background is....never mind, I go into that you'll definetly think I'm blowing smoke. SecretVenus, yours seems the most likely, thank you for your apparently informed input, its much appreciated. I apologize for not coming to reply sooner, and thank those of you who got here before I came back.

EDIT: No one commented on Acolyte, am I to assume that none here know about the word, or that my definition is correct?

[This message has been edited by firebird (edited 10-26-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by SecretVenus:

there is no sexual aspect invovled with Samhain, maybe if it was Beltane..but not Samhain. sorry..sounds like this guy is confused..or is talking about some personal thing he does...not a wiccan thing.



yes my first thought was the beltane fires as well but then again i'm sure some half arsed modern groups use sex magick (for wizards who can't spell!) all the time.

Samhain, eh?

Sounds like the trendy little witches are stealing shit from legit religions and cobbling it together.

quote:Originally posted by Sempre Solipsist:



Don't know. Always found that kind of lame myself. However, they want to distinguish religious magic from entertainment magic.

To be more specific, it was good old Aleister Crowley that put the K in magic.

And yeah, it was for the diferentiation, and probably for his ego too.

On the up side, that was 100 years ago, long before wicca. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

quote:that was 100 years ago, long before wicca.

HUH? wic(c)an has been around provable for a couple of thousand years kid. although if you're refering to what the TV calls wiccan then- ok you're right'

back when i was walking the rede we still used a lot of the old anglo saxon/middle english stuff..thats how old it is. (for example: rede or reed is the old word for 'saying' or 'creed')

Wicca's made up, a hodgepodge of numerous other religions who had their own magical branches.

Shit, just look at the reference to Samhain. That's Druidic, I believe.

If you're gonna compile every shamanistic and 'magic' worker of numerous religions into one label, you might as well just stick with 'pagan.'

^^^think we might have aconfusion of terms here. when i said 'wiccan' i was refering to what used to be called 'witchcraft or the old religion' here in england.

there are covens here that are demonstratably several hunderd years old (there's even a musuem of witchcraft someplace).

i was not refering to the 'i look good with my silicon tits and silver jewellery american tv wiccan'

is it a druidic term? its never been in doubt that as with all 'religions'(most of present christianity is still a sect of 'mithraism') that witchcraft borrowed heavily from its predecesors(sp?).

the horned one/herne predates probably even the druids.

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

^^^think we might have aconfusion of terms here. when i said 'wiccan' i was refering to what used to be called 'witchcraft or the old religion' here in england.

Ah. Well, in that case, then yes, you're right.

I'm talking about the relatively recent 'religion' that so many teenage girls seem to like to practice nowadays.

quote:is it a druidic term? its never been in doubt that as with all 'religions'(most of present christianity is still a sect of 'mithraism') that witchcraft borrowed heavily from its predecesors(sp?).

Yes, I'm pretty sure that Samhain is Halloween, a Druidic harvest festival. I'd have to google it to be sure, but that's what I remember off the top of my head.

Well, I googled it, and it's Celtic, rather than Druidic. You might as well use the terms practically interchangably, though.

although to be fair to americans we brits also have our own brand of fashionable 'wicca'

the 'Twee or Jeremy the Warlock' sort....central heated bungalow in surrey with the circle painted tastefully on the floorboards under the axminster and garlic bread sticks in the oven for afterwards.

Samhain is originally celtic. Most, if not all of the Sabbats have their original roots in europe.

Wicca, pagan, neopagan, the old religion, etc: call it what you want..it's all a label. All religions come from something old.

Rabbi: lets not imply im a trendy lil witch, i've been following this path since i was 15..thats 10 years now.

if anyone has stolen anything from legit religions...where do you think christmas came from...and halloween, if not from ours?

and yes, sempre is correct..they use the extra k to differentiate between the two different kinds of magic. not everyone does it, and yeah..lol..sometimes it does become a habit and you just accidently add it on there.

firebird: the definition you have of acolyte is correct, i have honestly never heard it used myself.

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

HUH? wic(c)an has been around provable for a couple of thousand years kid. although if you're refering to what the TV calls wiccan then- ok you're right'

back when i was walking the rede we still used a lot of the old anglo saxon/middle english stuff..thats how old it is. (for example: rede or reed is the old word for 'saying' or 'creed')



There is no evidence that a witchcraft religion existed before the 19th century. There was "wisecraft" which used herbs to heal, psychology to calm and tricks and treats to stir the community. There have been various cults throughout history that have practiced ceremonial witchcraft, but not with any link between each other.

Wicca is a mid 20th century religion, you can go back earlier if you wish to Murray or Leland if you'd like, but both were sensationalised and both fabricated most of their information, being that neither had access to a real coven that practiced an "old religion".

Paganism, on the other hand, has been around in various forms for a hundred thousand years, but represents simply the non-Abrahamic religions, which only date back about eight thousand years (earliest numbers).

"Drawing Down the Moon" & "The Triumph of the Moon" are both excellent source books on the history of witchcraft.

quote:there is no evidence that a witchcraft religion existed before the 19th century

not surprising as

1)upto recently (1950's i think) it was an imprisonable offence and before that pretty much guarenteed a fiery immolation at the secular arm.

2)'witches' by nature and dint are totally anti establishment/anti authoritarian and suck at working together.

i doubt there has ever been a 'religion' of witchcraft but however have seen enough evidence to be assured of the antiquity of most of the rites and ceremonies which were common when i was involved. there is also a large body of evidence to show that people have been performing these same rites for many hunderds of years.

quote:Originally posted by The_Rabbi:

Here's something I want to know: why the extra k?

To make it extra "kool?"

If you mean "magick", it is to distinguish the word from "magic" as in stage magic, illusionist stuff, misdirection. Magick is real.

quote:Originally posted by SecretVenus:



Rabbi: lets not imply im a trendy lil witch, i've been following this path since i was 15..thats 10 years now.

10 years of devoting yourself to a made up religion?

Sad.

At least stick with one culture. If you're going to rip off Celtic spiritual ideas, go all out and be Druids. If you're gonna copy Anglo-Saxon beliefs, devote yourself to Wotan.

But don't blend them all together and claim that your way is true. It's not.

Well, it is in the sense that thought becomes reality in the non-physical world, but you know what I mean.

quote:if anyone has stolen anything from legit religions...where do you think christmas came from...and halloween, if not from ours?

Yours hasn't been around long enough to claim it's had anything stolen from it.

Christmas, Yul, was stolen from Asatru.

Halloween was stolen from Celtic traditions.

You can't lay claim to either.

Rabbi, don't be such an intolerant fuck. First of all, you take yourself way too seriously and no one should take their religion too seriously. Furthermore, paganism is the oldest kind of religious belief. Long before the Jews, there were pagans. Paganism, like Christianity, has many traditions or denominations. "Four Square" is a Christian denomination established in the 20th century. Does that mean that Christians who attend "Four Square" churches can't claim to be in a direct line from earlier churches and denominations? They're not really christian? Paganism is broad and tolerant of many different beliefs and we don't believe that there is a TRUE WAY. That is a myth forced on people by Jews, Christians and Muslims.

I am not talking about having many paths up a Mountain, I'm talking about many different Mountains all together, with many paths on each.

Religion is personal and spiritual and our traditions, the pagan traditions are linked together throughout history - and if you would bother to study, you would have learned that Wiccans and other neo-pagans draw from previous pagan cultures. Wiccans and Neo-pagans are not the same tradition as these old cultures, they merely draw from them, just as the newer Christian denominations draw off of older Christian denominations. There are still many Protestant churches that are very much like Catholic churches, but they also draw from many protestant teachings. Do you condemn them for mixing and matching as they'd like?

Your intolerance shows your ignorance of pagan thinking...you might want to educate yourself before revealing your ignorance to all.

quote:Originally posted by Sempre Solipsist:

Rabbi, don't be such an intolerant fuck. First of all, you take yourself way too seriously and no one should take their religion too seriously. Furthermore, paganism is the oldest kind of religious belief. Long before the Jews, there were pagans. Paganism, like Christianity, has many traditions or denominations.

Would you care to look up the definition of "pagan?"

It's anything non-christian. "Pagan" is NOT a religion. It's nothing but a term used to label non-Christians.

You're lumping every religion from the dawn of time to the birth of Abraham, and some after that, together and calling it one thing.

You're wrong. You won't find a single instance in all of human history of someone labeling themselves "pagans" and saying they practice a "pagan religion." You'll find plenty mention of Christians saying that someone was a pagan, but not once will you find someone identifying themselves as such.

Well, not until the ignorant twentieth century rolled around.

quote:Your intolerance shows your ignorance of pagan thinking...you might want to educate yourself before revealing your ignorance to all.

I have an intolerance for the theft of other people's culture. Wicca is nothing but that.

EDIT: took out some of the harsher language, I think I was a bit too angry



[This message has been edited by The_Rabbi (edited 10-27-2004).]

Well said Sempre.

Rabbi..you think it was a pagan that came up with that defintion? doubt it.

i thought i made it pretty clear that wicca, neopagan and those terms are all just labels to us. your thinking created them, we dont bat an eyelash at them, label us what you wish. i dont really give a damn.

and if you go back and read what i wrote..i never claimed to be wiccan..just pagan..and within that you have NO idea what i believe.

you obviously have no knowledge of who we are and what we beleive so there is no point in arguing with you and i choose not to. go read a book, Sempre offered 2 great ones for you.

what is sad is how close minded and ignorant you are.

quote:Would you care to look up the definition of "pagan?"

It's anything non-christian. "Pagan" is NOT a religion. It's nothing but a term used to label non-Christians.

Paganism is typically used to denote religious practices that are non-Abrahamic in origin. However, there are other religions that are not typically consider pagan including many American cults, Mormonism and so forth.

quote:You're lumping every religion from the dawn of time to the birth of Abraham, and some after that, together and calling it one thing.

It is one thing. The pagan religions are a group of diverse polytheistic and agnostic traditions. Pagan thought can be traced from tradition to tradition, back throughout history.

quote: You're wrong. You won't find a single instance in all of human history of someone labeling themselves "pagans" and saying they practice a "pagan religion." You'll find plenty mention of Christians saying that someone was a pagan, but not once will you find someone identifying themselves as such.

Typically pagans refer to themselves by virtue of their tradition. That makes them no less “pagan” in the modern sense of the term. They are still non-Abrahamic polytheistic and agnostic religious traditions.

quote:I have an intolerance for the theft of other people's culture. Wicca is nothing but that.

Culture is not the type of thing that can be “stolen”. Cultures can be wiped out – the essential aim of Christians, Muslims and Jews, being to wipe out all cultures and beliefs that are not theirs – but NOT stolen. Beliefs are fluid and arise at different places and different times throughout history. Culture, is simply the way in which those beliefs are manifested through behavior. Wicca, culturally, is something very different than English Wise Craft and different from Druid or Celtic culture. The similarities that are shared are shared because beliefs are shared.

In keeping with your line of reasoning, we would have to condemn the US of Republic or Democratic forms of government as “stealing” from the Greeks and Romans. Furthermore, The Jewish belief in God was “stolen” from the cultures that preceded it in Indus Valley and in Egypt. So I guess the Jews are guilty of the same crime as the Wiccans huh?

In keeping with your line of reasoning, we would have to assume that the use of noodles and pasta in the United States is a cultural theft from Italy and Chinese food being served in America is theft of Chinese dietary culture – is that to be condemned?

Do you really believe that any culture really just SPONTANIOUSLY erupts? Every culture takes from the cultures the preceded it; it is obviously very difficult to take from cultures in the future. Paganism a defined by the Christian Majority as being any religion except Christian is also a fairly recent phenomenon. Originally, “pagan” referred to “country folk”; and these country folk practiced polytheistic and/or agnostic religion. A more accurate way of defining paganism today, is to refer to all those religions that do not believe in a One True Religion.

* Also, I wanted to point out that a majority of Wiccan Practice and ritual was taken from Freemasonry, which took a lot of their practices and rituals from the Cabbala, as practiced by mystic Judaism and Gnostic Christianity – though it does not stop there, as Jewish mysticism can be traced back to Egypt and Gnostic mysticism can be traced to India. Anyway – hopefully you will have begun to see that your argument is not only intolerant, but completely impractical.

edited

[This message has been edited by Sempre Solipsist (edited 10-27-2004).]

www.magicwicca.com (http://www.magicwicca.com) www.witchway.net (http://www.witchway.net)

Both are good and tell you a little about the history of the Craft. Now, what do druidism, wicca and just about all 'pagan' religions have in common? They're all different ways of worshpping the same thing and they know it. Wicca - we accept there is more than one way to godhood, and rabbi? Pagan isn't non-christian... it's from paganus, Latin for country dweller... Christians labelled us this way because the druids and witches all lived mainly in little villages. Celts, mostly. Celtic Wicca exists, as does 'modern' wicca, which is neo-pagan, and druidism... all of which would be pagan, we all worship the God and Goddess, and almost every Witch does it in adifferent way. I call the God and Goddess Ark and Tiffany, my friend who practices Celtic Wicca calls her Brigid (Christianity ripped this off by making St. Brigit to convinve the witches and druids, pagans in genera, to leave their old religion)... lost the aim in mind now... Wicca didn't rip off druidism, they are both just different ways of doing the same thing - Alexandrian Wicca isn't Gardnerian, but it was born of it, just as Christianity is an off-shoot of Judaism - one goes to a chruch, one to a synagogue, one has the bible, the other the Torah (sp?)... they both worship the same god, do they not?

Blessed be. The Chaos Penguin must hunt.

I give up. You guys go on raping the customs and traditions of legitimate religions, I don't give a shit.

Actually, you know what? I don't give up.

quote:Originally posted by SecretVenus:

Well said Sempre.

Rabbi..you think it was a pagan that came up with that defintion? doubt it.

Venus... you think that a pagan actually identifies herself as a pagan and considers it to be a faith? doubt it.

quote:i thought i made it pretty clear that wicca, neopagan and those terms are all just labels to us. your thinking created them, we dont bat an eyelash at them, label us what you wish. i dont really give a damn.

I agree, they're just labels, which makes me frustrated that your ilk seeks to make that label a legitimate, existing group.

[bquote]and if you go back and read what i wrote..i never claimed to be wiccan..just pagan..and within that you have NO idea what i believe.[/quote]

I bet I could make a pretty good guess. A little bit of Celtic, probably some Crowley bullshit, with a small amount of latin phrases that are supposed to do something thrown in for good measure.

The fact that you call yourself a pagan is indicative of your ignorance. There's no religion that was around before the 19th century that called itself "paganism."

Wicca, Neo-Paganism, all the hodgepodges, are recent creations that steal from other, legitimate religions.

quote:you obviously have no knowledge of who we are and what we beleive so there is no point in arguing with you and i choose not to. go read a book, Sempre offered 2 great ones for you.

what is sad is how close minded and ignorant you are.

I'd rather be close minded and ignorant than a thief.

quote:Originally posted by ChaosPenguin:

and rabbi? Pagan isn't non-christian... it's from paganus, Latin for country dweller... Christians labelled us this way because the druids and witches all lived mainly in little villages. Celts, mostly. Celtic Wicca exists, as does 'modern' wicca, which is neo-pagan, and druidism... all of which would be pagan, we all worship the God and Goddess, and almost every Witch does it in adifferent way.

Oh, I know of the latin root. My last name comes from the same word.

But you're only reinforcing my point. Why do you seek to blend all of those DIFFERENT religions, with DIFFERENT beliefs, into one under the label of "pagan?"

That's wrong. You think a Druid 2000 years ago would think that his gods were the same as a Gothi's? No fucking way.

They'd recognize that the other faith's Gods exist, but by NO means would they consider them to be the same beings, just with different names.

You're ignorant if you think that all the gods and goddesses are the same, just with different names. If you honestly think that, you need to learn a bit about the nature of the non-physical reality, a.k.a. the astral.

quote:Originally posted by Sempre Solipsist:

It is one thing. The pagan religions are a group of diverse polytheistic and agnostic traditions. Pagan thought can be traced from tradition to tradition, back throughout history.

It is NOT one thing. It is a recent custom to refer to these numerous religions as one thing, something the old practicioners of those faiths would NOT have approved of.

My God Can Beat The Shit Out Of Your God.

Do tell me when you became an expert on our religion...

First off, Crowley was a member of the Plymouth Bretherin or some such crap, which was a Christian sect and a fucked up one at that.

And now the 'theft' of holidays... did it ever occur to you (well, obviously it didn't but I'll say it for effect) that instead of 'This religion is right and the others just stole the idea', did it ever occur to you that perhaps all the religions were right. I mean, the Mother Goddess. Worshipped by Witches and Druids and red Indians. Yule... yes, stolen from Asatru... okay I know fuck all about Asatru so I won't say anything. Halloween stolen from Celtic traditions... the witches were the wise men and women of the village, Wicca is and was a Celtic thing. So we can't steal Samhain... unless it's for insurance fraud, but I can't be bothered.

A little Wiccan history... Gardner came into the public eye in the 60's I believe claiming witches had been practicing all along in Britian. Just as Jews and Christians worship the same god, so did all the lovely group people think of as 'pagans'. First there was Judaism, then Christianity shot off that, because they believed Jesus was the son of god, the other Jews didn't. The Celtic non-christians, or 'pagans', all worshipped the same Mother Goddess, but some believed that worship should involve sex, some said it should be based on candles... different rituals evolve, if they work. Then eventually the different rituals become different ways of worship altogether, with Druids sacraficing goats on rocks to the Goddess and Witches lighting fires and generally being happy.Obviously not everything will change if they worship the same dieties, that's like a Jew saying MGCBTSOOYG to a Christian when they're one and the same. Although that does happen...

It's like a plant, each leaf individual. They all come from the same stem, are connected to the same roots, all have to absorb the same sunlight. The leaves would obviously be druidism, wicca, all the old ways of the Celtic times. But they all come from the same thing. Christianity celebrating Christmas on December 25th so pagans could convert and not lose a holiday, that would be theft - historians, Christians and non-Christians actually agree that Jesus was born some time around March or February I think. Sometime other than Dec 25th, any way. Isnt religion fun?

Believe what you want to believe, Rabbi/Kikey/whateverIshouldcallyou. Everyone else does, and usually it's only fundamentalist Christians and Jehovah's Witnesses who try and tell other people they're wrong. 'Excuse me, everything you know and believe in (and yes, magick does work, though it's probably psychological) is wrong, but DON'T WORRY, give us all your money and we'll tell you what's right! We'd know, of course, this is how we found religion, we were sold it on our doorsteps too!' If you want I could tell you the story of how I found Wicca and eventually began to practice it. It's quite long though. Like this post. Fuck this, I'm going to go light some white and violet candles, because TO ME they reprsent, amongst other things, truth and spirituality. Goodbye. Oh, and blessed be.

If you think of me as a monotheist, you are incorrect. I've had personal experiences with Odin, he's fucked with my head and screamed in my ears. I KNOW he's there.

I am also of the school of thought that ALL religions are right.

Where we differ is this: while they are all correct, they are NOT all the same thing.

They all exist, seperate of each other. There is not one set of Gods, or one God that's just called by many names. You talk about not claiming that one set's right. Why don't you practice it?

Or are you just claiming that they're all the same to avoid having that charge levied at you?

quote: Venus... you think that a pagan actually identifies herself as a pagan and considers it to be a faith? doubt it.

i never said my faith was pagan, you're the one labeling me, im just going along with it cause i dont see why i need to define myself to you, when obviously you're not going to accept anything you cant wrap your empty head around.

quote: I agree, they're just labels, which makes me frustrated that your ilk seeks to make that label a legitimate, existing group.

which one of us is trying to make it legitimate?? none of us have claimed that we practice the faith of paganism. you are the one who define paganism is anyone who does not practice the Abrahamic religions, and if that is your defintion, than yes i fall into that.

quote: I bet I could make a pretty good guess. A little bit of Celtic, probably some Crowley bullshit, with a small amount of latin phrases that are supposed to do something thrown in for good measure.

The fact that you call yourself a pagan is indicative of your ignorance. There's no religion that was around before the 19th century that called itself "paganism."

Wicca, Neo-Paganism, all the hodgepodges, are recent creations that steal from other, legitimate religions.

Wow..not only are you close minded but you're rash. I have posted like 4 times on this whole site and you can already figure me out? wow..way to go. let me tell you that you have NO idea what i believe, you're not even close. Dont make assumptions...it makes you look like a giant prick. Let's state once again YOU are the one that called us pagan, so we're being nice and accepting your terminology and going with it. Exactly what do you think that Christianity was trying to stamp out when it was first spreading through europe?? If you're stuck on this definiton and label and dont believe its valid..than stop using it, im sure we'll thank you for it.

quote:Originally posted by The_Rabbi:

I give up. You guys go on raping the customs and traditions of legitimate religions, I don't give a shit.



You and your Jewish, Christian and Muslim friends can go on murdering and raping EVERYONE who does not agree with you for all I care. Kill each other off would you? So the world can go back to having religion not centered around the evil, earth hating nonsense that consumes your sick fucking people!

quote:Originally posted by Sempre Solipsist:



You and your Jewish, Christian and Muslim friends can go on murdering and raping EVERYONE who does not agree with you for all I care. Kill each other off would you? So the world can go back to having religion not centered around the evil, earth hating nonsense that consumes your sick fucking people!

I'm Asatru-ar, dipshit.

quote:Originally posted by SecretVenus:



i never said my faith was pagan, you're the one labeling me, im just going along with it cause i dont see why i need to define myself to you, when obviously you're not going to accept anything you cant wrap your empty head around.

Incorrect, I've been the one arguing for the past two pages that pagan is nothing more than a label, one that I did not bring into the discussion, either.

Go re-read my previous posts.

quote:which one of us is trying to make it legitimate?? none of us have claimed that we practice the faith of paganism. you are the one who define paganism is anyone who does not practice the Abrahamic religions, and if that is your defintion, than yes i fall into that.

Go re-read ALL of the previous posts in this thread. Who has identified themselves as "pagan," and claimed it is ONE faith that encompasses numeroud polytheistic beliefs?

I have not once called someone a pagan in the sense of it being a religion. I've argued just the opposite, that it is NOT a religion, but a catch-all for Non-Abrahamic religions.

Christ, you're grasping at straws.

quote: Wow..not only are you close minded but you're rash. I have posted like 4 times on this whole site and you can already figure me out? wow..way to go. let me tell you that you have NO idea what i believe, you're not even close. Dont make assumptions...it makes you look like a giant prick.

Heh, I didn't expect you to take me literally. I was just insulting the new 'mocha blend' religions.

quote: Let's state once again YOU are the one that called us pagan, so we're being nice and accepting your terminology and going with it.

I didn't call anyone a pagan. I tried to define what a pagan really was, that it was NOT a faith.

Perhaps you're not speaking of me personally, but the Christians. In which case, I suppose you'd be right, but the fact that you're accepting the term and building a belief structure around it only reinforces my point that your religion is a new creation.

quote: Exactly what do you think that Christianity was trying to stamp out when it was first spreading through europe??

It damn sure wasn't your faith, yours wasn't created until after Christianity had already taken hold of Europe.

You know whose faith they were trying to stamp out? Mine. Not yours.

quote:If you're stuck on this definiton and label and dont believe its valid..than stop using it, im sure we'll thank you for it.

You all have taken to calling yourselves pagans. I did not label you as such.

*bangs head on desk*

quote:Originally posted by The_Rabbi:

I'm Asatru-ar, dipshit.



Interesting, that makes sense actually. Though, I find it even more extraordinary that you are taking your stand, considering that the Asatru are neo-pagans who are mimicing old Norse religion. Not that there is anything worng with that, it just seems like you should be outraged at yourself.

Asatru is NOT neo-paganism. It's not new, it's the same religion, more or less, that's been practiced by the Northern European people for centuries, millenia even.

That's the point I've been trying to make all along. Paganism is not a religion, and the members of all those different religions you claim are just different denominations of some pagan religion do NOT consider themselves to be pagans.

Christianity may have many different denominations, but you cannot deny that they all consider themselves to be Christian. This is not at all the case with all the religions you claim to be merely branches of one bigger catch-all faith.

quote:Originally posted by The_Rabbi:

Asatru is NOT neo-paganism. It's not new, it's the same religion, more or less, that's been practiced by the Northern European people for centuries, millenia even.



It's neopagan. Just like the reformed egyptian, greek, native american and roman cults are neo-pagan. It is not the same religion. However, if you really think you are still practicing the same religion, could you give me some reasons why you think this...some evidence maybe.

quote:Originally posted by Sempre Solipsist:

However, if you really think you are still practicing the same religion, could you give me some reasons why you think this...some evidence maybe.



The Eddas.

They are not something written by a 19th century self-proclaimed messiah. They're historical books like the Bible and the Qu'ran.

Iceland has preserved the religion throughout the centuries, so it can be thought of as an ongoing religion that has not been revived, so much as it has been adopted by more people.

Moreover, it has not been added to. New interpretations on the current material has been written down, but it is not like the other religions which you have termed neo-pagan.

And no, Asatru is not neo-pagan. Some Asatru-ar have even taken to calling themselves Heathens to point this out and distance themselves from other religions.

A Druid's God is not one of my Gods.

sempre,venus and rabbi

you realise you're becoming to sound like christians??

:P

Heh.

I just don't want my faith to be grouped with others I don't give credibility to.

I know far too much about reality to think that they are all the same thing.

quote:Originally posted by The_Rabbi:

I just don't want my faith to be grouped with others I don't give credibility to.

I know far too much about reality to think that they are all the same thing.

Well, that certainly makes you a dogmatist now doesn't it? You know your own subjective interpretation of your own individual reality, which is nothing more than the collection of appearences recieved by you - this is to say nothing of those appearences experienced by others. It is not that reality it is relative, so much as it is that reality is not "known". What makes ideologies like yours so frustrating is that you really beleive you've figured out the way and the truth, when in actuality, like everyone else, you've merely chosen a religious language with which to define your own spiritual and metaphysical world. The truth of our religious beleifs is reflected in the fact that they are shaped by our own experience, and my experience of the divine certainly is not that of anybody else - my spirituality, my religion, is predicted upon no other than my own experience. I find it strange that you would predicate your own spirituality, your own religious beliefs, upon one set of writings, one cultural perspective above all others. It doesn't make sense to me. However, the moment you decide that you've found the true path and the true way and that all other paths and ways are wrong, you are, quite literally, no longer pagan.

NOw what you're saying is making sense to me... sorry about the large amounts of anger in my head before, but if you can't understand why...

Wicca itself, in it's neo-pagan form, is new, yes. Gardner came up and was called the King of Witches. I think Gardner was a little bit of an asshole, sorry Garnerians. But Wicca is also old, because it was practised before, by the Celts. They're all dead, I think. BUt saying Wicca is a revival... we've always been there, unfortunately in the background due to a little thing called Christianity, who didn't like druids, witches, and I haven't studied these times since like... 6 years ago, so forgive me, Nords who practised Asatru. This religion (god this keyboard sucks), with its god that loves all beings, proceeded to either kill or convert druids, witches, and whatever the practitioners of Asatru are called.

Now I've done my research. Please disregard everything I said in previous posts. I apologise.

But Wicca being a rape and thief of other religions... half of the sabbats/esbats are based on lunar alignments and all of them on the seasons typical weather or other symbolism. It all tells the 'story', as it were, of the God and the Goddess. Spring, new life, fertility, there is Ostara.

And yes, we are sounding like Christians. I have an idea, why don't we never speak of this again and quietly discern to our personal practises?