Six months ago yesterday I had my first date with an amazing girl. We hit it off right away, and since then we've been virtually inseperable.

She is mormon.

At first I thought this was a bad thing. I figured our relationship wouldn't go anywhere because I could never become one of them. I had been taught by my asshole baptist priests that mormonism was a cult, and that all mormons go to hell. Then I started going to church with her, and I realized all of this was a lie.

Since then I've taken several steps farther, speaking with missionaries and reading the book of mormon, and the more I think about it the more true this religion seems to me.

Anywho, before I go take the plunge (literally) and get baptised, I figured I'd ask the people of totse if they have any good, honest, intellectual reasons why mormonism is wrong.

And I really don't want to have to deal with the judgemental shit, if you don't have a decent response, please don't respond.

Thanks

Homer

just a thought.

do you HAVE to become a mormon?

and why you shouldn't become a mormon: because ppl will mock/despise you.

i ain't one (although because the wife was one i did go through the whole prebaptismal bit).

gotta say they are some of the 'best' christians on this shite hole of a planet and i respect them greatly.

the biggest problem with them is they are too caring... every bloody time i met one it it was ' how are you brother, how can we help you? what can we do to make your life better?'

after i'd got them to redecorate our appartment and lay carpet i kinda ran out of things for them to do.

they sure put 'love thy neighbour' into practice.

why didn't i become one? well firstly i doubt i would ever be that saintly and second i had grave theological differences with the Utah mob. differences about the book of mormon.

quite happy to believe its the word of god but i ain't so keen on what got taught after the time of BY.(the way they sold out so they could join the Union)

did look into the 'reformed' church but although better (nearer the original) it still wasn't quite there. i'm told around Provo and places there are still proper polygamous mormons so if i ever come to the states it'd be interesting to check.

[This message has been edited by jackketch (edited 10-24-2004).]

Maybe because the logistics of Christ walking in North America are absurd. And the entire religion is based off of something one guy said, who never offerred any proof, to anyone. It's not even a case of "Well, thas fantastic, so I don't beleive it was a miracle." It's

"This is truth, crazy as it sounds".

"Can we see the proof you say you have?"

"No."

Plus you might have to wear the special mormon super-undies.

I see what you're trying to say SurahAhriman, but I'm not looking to see whether or not what was said in the book of mormon was absurd, that's not my concern.

I'm asking if you people see any reason why becmong mormon would somehow ruin my life/afterlife.

I haven't heard any, so I'm thinking about setting a date for a baptism once I'm done with all my discussions with missionaries.

Thank you for your help.

Any good reason on why you SHOULD become a mormon? That is unclear.

mormons arent to fond of ciggarettes alcohol and any other mind altering substance, thats no fun!

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:

Any good reason on why you SHOULD become a mormon? That is unclear.

i think he was saying he has to be a mormon for the girl to marry him

quote:Originally posted by SurahAhriman:

Maybe because the logistics of Christ walking in North America are absurd. And the entire religion is based off of something one guy said, who never offerred any proof, to anyone. It's not even a case of "Well, thas fantastic, so I don't beleive it was a miracle." It's

"This is truth, crazy as it sounds".

"Can we see the proof you say you have?"

"No."

I agree with him. What do you mean your no concerned whether its absurd or not? This is the religion you are going to believe in and practice and you don't care whether its absurd? Thats incredibily retarded. You shouldn't become a mormom because of that absurd fact of Jesus walking through the North America, the guy having proof and refusing to show it, and the entire ludracris story behind it. Its all bull shit. Not bullshit like organized religion in general, but bull shit in the most direct sense.

or how about you're becoming mormon so she'll want you more? THAT is some bull shit right there.

do you really want to go on a mission? do you want to go door to door selling religion? yeah, didn't think so.

don't take any steps to committment until you know what you're signing yourself up for.

quote:Originally posted by kaos_ill:

i think he was saying he has to be a mormon for the girl to marry him

That is untrue. I am not becoming mormon because of her, I am becoming mormon because it feels right to me.

I like the church of jesus christ of latter day saints.

I want to know if somehow becoming mormon will send me to hell.

I know I won't have to do anything different should I become mormon. I don't drink/smoke, etc, so that's not a problem.

Well, not accepting Allah will send you to hell. So will not taking part in the Eucharist. Each denomination and religion has their own rules, and most of them don't overlap. No matter what you choose, someone'll be sending you to hell. Just make your choice about how you want to live this life.

Because Mormons are arguably the worst people on the face of the planet, period?

Yeah, that's a pretty good reason, last time I checked.

quote: No matter what you choose, someone'll be sending you to hell.

ain't that the stone cold truth..



and if you believe its right then thats all that matters. go get baptised kid.

Well, my response is going to be from a non-denominational Christian perspective (BIG SURPRISE !!), assuming (as I do) that non-denominational Christianity is the only RIGHT way to live your life as a Christian.

There are some deep-seeded issues with Mormonism, stemming directly from it's foundational inception. Joseph Smith should not be considered a man worthy of "translating" for God.

"Even though Mormons often display admirable traits in personal and family life, the doctrinal positions of the church itself cannot be harmonized with the teaching of the Bible.

Here are some key differences...

Mormonism says: God is the Supreme Being of the universe, but he has not always held that position. He gradually attained godhood by living a perfectly righteous life.

"...We must accept the fact that there was a time when Deity was much less powerful than He is today. Then how did He become glorified and exalted and attain His present status of Godhood? In the first place, aeons ago God undoubtedly took advantage of every opportunity to learn the laws of truth and as He became acquainted with each new verity He righteously obeyed it. From day to day He exerted His will vigorously, and as a result became thoroughly acquainted with the forces lying about Him. As He gained more knowledge through persistent effort and continuous industry, as well as through absolute obedience, His understanding of the universal laws continued to become more complete. Thus He grew in experience and continued to grow until He attained the status of Godhood. In other words, He became God by absolute obedience to all the truth, and thereby became the author of eternal truth. Therefore, the road that the Eternal Father followed to Godhood was one of living at all times a dynamic, industrious, and completely righteous life. There is no other way to exaltation." -Milton R. Hunter, The Gospel Through the Ages (Salt Lake City: Steven & Wallis, 1945), pp. 114-115 (emphasis added).

Mormonism also teaches that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones.

"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also;..." -Doctrine and Covenants, 130:22.

Mormonism also taught that Adam is God the Father, that they are one and the same.

"When our Father Adam came into the Garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is Michael, the Archangel, the Ancient of Days about whom holy men have spoken -- He is our Father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do." -Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 1:50-51, April 9, 1852, as cited in Gordon H. Fraser, Is Mormonism Christian? (Chicago: Moody, 1955), p. 50 (emphasis added).

"It has been said that Adam is the God and Father of the human family, and persons are perhaps in fear and great trouble of mind, lest they have to acknowledge him as such in a future day. For our part we would rather acknowledge Adam to be our Father, than hunt for another, and take up with the Devil." -Millennial Star 15:801, as cited in Gordon H. Fraser, Is Mormonism Christian? (Chicago: Moody, 1955), p. 51.

The Bible says: God has existed eternally in perfection, and has never had less of His infinite power and wisdom than He has today. Adam was the first created man and certainly never God.

Mormonism says: Jesus and Satan, like the rest of us, were spirit brothers and sons of God before the spirit of Jesus was given a body by Mary in Bethlehem. The Mormon "Book of Moses" presents Satan and Jesus as contending for the privilege of taking a body of flesh in order to become the redeemer, with Jesus winning the contest. [See Joseph Smith, Pearl of Great Price, Book of Moses 4:1-4.]

Mormonism also teaches that Jesus was the physical son of Adam and Mary, and that there is nothing in His life more than what is attainable by anyone else. As we have seen above, according to Mormon doctrine, Adam and God the Father are one and the same. If Adam is the same as God the Father, then it hardly matters whether you say Jesus was born of the Father or of Adam.

"When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus... he was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is his Father? He is the first of the human family...Jesus our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden." -Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 1:50-51, as cited in Gordon H. Fraser, Is Mormonism Christian? (Chicago: Moody, 1955), p. 58.

"His humanity is to be recognized as real and ordinary ...whatever happened to him may happen to any one of us. ...The divinity of Jesus, and the divinity of all other noble and stately souls, in so far as they, too, have been influenced by a spark of Deity - can be recognized as manifestations of the Divine." -Parley P. Pratt, Key to the Science of Theology (Salt Lake City: Deseret, 1883) (emphasis added).

The Bible says: Jesus Christ has existed eternally as God the second Person of the Trinity, and then took on a human nature at His birth in Bethlehem. Since then He exists eternally as one Person with both divine and human natures.

Mormonism says: All human beings and spirits, including Jesus and Satan, existed as spirit beings before being born. Physical birth gives bodies to these spirits, and an opportunity to choose right or wrong. Thus the present life is a period of probation. The way a person lives in this life determines their status in the life after the resurrection. If the deeds of this life have been satisfactory and all temple obligations have been fulfilled, the individual becomes a god and is considered eligible to create "spirit children" as God the Father did and populate a world of his own.

The Bible says: There is no pre-existence of human spirits in an earlier life before our earthly existence; the Bible does not teach this in any form. And humanity is permanently on a lower level than God. Though we may become like Him in moral purity in heaven, we never become infinite in regard to time, space or ability. And the Bible says nothing about populating other worlds - simply about the future kingdom of Christ and the New Jerusalem on this world (Revelation 21-22).

Mormonism says: The Mormon church uses the Bible and the Book of Mormon as their primary authority, with the addition of the Doctrine and Covenants and The Pearl of Great Price.

"We believe the Bible to be the word of God, as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God." -Articles of Faith, 8.

The Bible says: God's Word (the Bible) alone is authoritative.

Is the Bible truly the final authority in all matters of faith and morals? ( http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/sola-scriptura-bible.html )

Is sola Scriptura a biblical or a man-made concept? ( http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/sola-scriptura1.html )

What did the Early Church believe about the authority of Scripture? (sola Scriptura) ( http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/sola-scriptura-earlychurch.html )

Mormonism says: Christ overcame physical death and guaranteed physical resurrection to all mankind. But spiritual death can only be avoided by individual obedience to the commandments of God.

"We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. ... We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost." - Articles of Faith, 3 and 4 (emphasis added).

Forgiveness of sins requires baptism by an approved Mormon priest. The practice of baptism for the dead is an extension of this belief, in which Mormons are baptized in proxy for those who have died without proper baptism.

The Bible says: We are unable to live a life righteous enough to meet God's standard of perfect holiness. Therefore we become right with God by faith in the work of Christ, not by our own works. Baptism and holy living are acts of obedience to God, but not a means of gaining salvation.

Mormonism says: Although there is some form of punishment (possibly temporary) for those that are most wicked, Christ will usher in a kingdom that will consist of three levels by the end of the millennium: the celestial kingdom, the terrestrial kingdom, and the telestial kingdom. It is possible to advance within each of these kingdoms.

The Bible only speaks of two final fates for mankind: heaven or hell. And nothing is said of advancing in status in either location.

For further information Irvine Robertson, What the Cults Believe (Chicago: Moody, 1966). Gordon H. Fraser, Is Mormonism Christian ? (Chicago: Moody, 1955).

- http://christiananswers.net/q-acb/acb-r002a.html

For those that chastise Christians who post from Christiananswers.net, here are some other sources for this information:

"The purpose of this page is not to bash members of the LDS church or imply that they are bad. In fact, as a group, I have never met nicer people. I don't think I have ever met a Mormon I didn't like.

However, they have some beliefs that are quite different from orthodox Christianity ( http://www.godandscience.org/cults/mormdiff.html ) and the teachings of the Bible. For example:

Heavens and Earth Were Created by a Council of Gods ( http://www.godandscience.org/cults/sld006.html )

Obedient Humans Can Become Gods ( http://www.godandscience.org/cults/sld008.html )

New Gods Are Created Through Celestial Procreation ( http://www.godandscience.org/cults/sld009.html )

The following information is presented to show that Mormon doctrines are not supported by the Bible, or even the officially-recognized Mormon scriptures. I have purposefully chosen to present only scriptural and scientific errors in the Mormon doctrines and not attack Mormon leadership or actions from the past.

- Why the LDS Church is a Cult- Differences Between Christian and LDS Doctrines

- Contradictions in LDS Doctrines

One God or Many ?

- Does God the Father Have a "Body of Flesh and Bone" ?

- Does "Progression" Exist or is God Unchangeable ?

- Read the Book of Mormon and Pray to

Determine if it is True - Is this Good Biblical Advice ?

- Spiritual Warfare at the Redlands LDS Temple

- Testimonies of Ex-Mormons

- Mormon Links

( to see these topics, click HERE: http://www.godandscience.org/cults/ )"

Cult Of Christianity - http://www.apologeticsindex.org/m04.html

Christians Without Christ - http://religion-cults.com/Cults/Christian/C-CULTS.htm

And here's another fallacy of the Mormon religion:

Baptism of the Dead - http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-r001.html

A little on the founder, Joseph Smith:

PROPHECIES OF JOSEPH SMITH WHICH WERE NOT FULFILLED - http://www.exmormon.org/prophet.htm

Joseph Smith Practiced Polygamy ( against Biblical doctrine) - http://www.mindspring.com/~engineer_my_dna/mormon/denpract.htm

- http://www.mindspring.com/~engineer_my_dna/mormon/posting3.htm

Joseph Smith Was A Murderer - Most Mormons believe that Joseph Smith died without putting up a struggle, but the actual truth is that he died in a blazing gunfight with his enemies. In the History of the Church, vol. 6, pp. 617-18, the following account is given concerning Smith's death:

"...there was... a discharge of three or four firearms.... Joseph sprang to his coat for his six-shooter… he discharged his six-shooter in the stairway… two or three barrels of which missed fire.

"Joseph...dropped his pistol on the floor, and sprang into the window..."

John Taylor, who became the 3rd president of the church, testified that Joseph Smith "snapped the pistol six successive times; only three of the barrels, however, were discharged. I afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges, two of whom, I am informed died." (History of the Church, vol. 7, pp. 102-3) - http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/jesusandjosephsmith.htm

( In all fairness, this can be said: "You seem to imply that there is something wrong or immoral about defending either yourself or others from unlawful attacks. When the mob of 150-200 persons attacked the room in which he and his associates were staying, Joseph managed to fire just three shots at the mob before he was killed. The entire event only lasted a few minutes. You describe the encounter as a "blazing gun battle." One man, armed only with a small revolver and defending himself against 200 armed foes, does not describe a "blazing gun battle." It describes a slaughter." - http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/response/qa/martyr_joseph.htm )

Anyway, I hope this is all enough to give you reason to place serious thought on conversion to Mormonism.

Christianity ought not to be muddied up by man-made religion.

The Bible is the only authority on God, and should be followed fervently.

God is a God of love, and Jesus died for our sins.

It's THAT simple.

God bless you, and keep you. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by HomerJay603:

I see what you're trying to say SurahAhriman, but I'm not looking to see whether or not what was said in the book of mormon was absurd, that's not my concern.

I'm asking if you people see any reason why becmong mormon would somehow ruin my life/afterlife.

I haven't heard any, so I'm thinking about setting a date for a baptism once I'm done with all my discussions with missionaries.

Thank you for your help.

As long as you accept Christ into your heart, then you'll be fine.

The trouble comes when you try to live a fruitful life for God.

Your sole purpose on this planet is to perpetuate God's will, by spreading His gospel.

How can you do that if you are not following His word ?

The Book of Mormon basically calls God a liar...scary ground to tread on, in my opinion.

I'd find yourself a Calvary Chapel (non-denominational Christian church) and see if you can't have a "sit-down" with a pastor about this.

Good luck to you (both with God, and the girl !)

quote:Originally posted by SurahAhriman:

Well, not accepting Allah will send you to hell. So will not taking part in the Eucharist. Each denomination and religion has their own rules, and most of them don't overlap. No matter what you choose, someone'll be sending you to hell. Just make your choice about how you want to live this life.

You've got a point...

Except that NOT believing in the Christian God sends you to Hell, not disbelief in Allah.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

(That was a JOKE, just in case the humor was lost in translation...though now it's been lost by over-simplification *lol*)

In addition to DS's links, I recommend this one.

http://www.exmormon.org

I included that website in my "quotes".

http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)

Actually, this is PERFECT for your situation (original poster):

http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm

quote:Originally posted by HomerJay603:

Six months ago yesterday I had my first date with an amazing girl. We hit it off right away, and since then we've been virtually inseperable.

She is mormon.

At first I thought this was a bad thing. I figured our relationship wouldn't go anywhere because I could never become one of them. I had been taught by my asshole baptist priests that mormonism was a cult, and that all mormons go to hell. Then I started going to church with her, and I realized all of this was a lie.

Since then I've taken several steps farther, speaking with missionaries and reading the book of mormon, and the more I think about it the more true this religion seems to me.

Anywho, before I go take the plunge (literally) and get baptised, I figured I'd ask the people of totse if they have any good, honest, intellectual reasons why mormonism is wrong.

And I really don't want to have to deal with the judgemental shit, if you don't have a decent response, please don't respond.

Thanks

Homer

Earth is hell, or can be more than anything you'll encounter in the afterlife. Religion was formed to quell the populance, truth is long lost. The way to salvation is within you, inner peace. That will satiate you until death, and who really knows whats beyond that? Nobody living...

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I included that website in my "quotes".

http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)

Yes, I know, just providing a direct link to the main page. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:Originally posted by barehandkiller:

The way to salvation is within you, inner peace. That will satiate you until death, and who really knows whats beyond that? Nobody living...

I am sure you have irrefutable evidence of that opinion, don't you ?

http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

You've got a point...

Except that NOT believing in the Christian God sends you to Hell, not disbelief in Allah.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

(That was a JOKE, just in case the humor was lost in translation...though now it's been lost by over-simplification *lol*)

lol. I appreciate the effort.

quote:And the entire religion is based off of something one guy said, who never offerred any proof, to anyone.



Where have i heard that before?



oh i know, every single religion!

Christianity is based off of the interpretations of MANY men, through divine inspiration from God.

Your generalization doesn't hold water.

I spoke with missionaries today, and I brought up all the anti-mormon points you told me about.

Every one is a lie or a misinterpretation.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I've made my decision.

Next week I'm going to set the date for my baptism.

I know the book of mormon is the truth.

I know Joseph Smith was a prophet.

I will not be convinced differently.

.

Perhaps instead of listening entirely to anti-mormon sources you should sit down with a couple of missionaries and listen to them with an open mind.

I used to think as you think now that mormons are a cult, and that every one of them, us, are going to hell.

This is simply not true.

If, as standard christians believe, the key to salvation is belief in Jesus Christ as your savior and the son of god, then how are mormons not saved?

.

Thank you all for the help, but my mind is made up.

There is no hell other than that which man has created. Religions perpetuate based on the problem of evil, a product of man. If you are going to believe in a religion because you fear punishment then you are not following the purpose of the religion. The whole point is to live a good life and not to fuck it up for other people.

Personally I see it as an insult to a possible creator that people reject this life as worthless. It's like skipping dinner because you hope to have dessert. You pass up something real for a possibility of something which you perceive to be better.

You've made your choice and you "won't be swayed." When you stop questioning you stop thinking. When you stop thinking you stop using your intellect and will, the things which make you human.

Well good luck to you, I hope your closed mindedness leads you to an appropriate conclusion.

quote:Originally posted by HomerJay603:

I spoke with missionaries today, and I brought up all the anti-mormon points you told me about.

Every one is a lie or a misinterpretation.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I've made my decision.

Next week I'm going to set the date for my baptism.

I know the book of mormon is the truth.

I know Joseph Smith was a prophet.

I will not be convinced differently.

.

Perhaps instead of listening entirely to anti-mormon sources you should sit down with a couple of missionaries and listen to them with an open mind.

I used to think as you think now that mormons are a cult, and that every one of them, us, are going to hell.

This is simply not true.

If, as standard christians believe, the key to salvation is belief in Jesus Christ as your savior and the son of god, then how are mormons not saved?

.

Thank you all for the help, but my mind is made up.

Why are you being so anti-non-Mormon? Maybe, if you sat down with an atheist, and listened with an open mind...

Two-edged arguements are a bitch, aren't they?

quote:Joseph Smith should not be considered a man worthy of "translating" for God.

which is true ...he was a thief,liar and small time crook.

but then again King David was a liar,adulterer, murderer and a bad father. yet he wrote the psalms and spoke to god directly

Digital never forget: god chooses his vessels and vassals not you or i.

quote:Originally posted by Fanglekai:

There is no hell other than that which man has created. Religions perpetuate based on the problem of evil, a product of man. If you are going to believe in a religion because you fear punishment then you are not following the purpose of the religion. The whole point is to live a good life and not to fuck it up for other people.

Personally I see it as an insult to a possible creator that people reject this life as worthless. It's like skipping dinner because you hope to have dessert. You pass up something real for a possibility of something which you perceive to be better.

You've made your choice and you "won't be swayed." When you stop questioning you stop thinking. When you stop thinking you stop using your intellect and will, the things which make you human.

Well good luck to you, I hope your closed mindedness leads you to an appropriate conclusion.

quote:Originally posted by Fanglekai:



Well good luck to you, I hope your closed mindedness leads you to an appropriate conclusion.

Perhaps delusion is a more logical outcome? Read the BoM and met with missionaries and the theology does not add up. For example the Mormons say that families, spouses etc will be reunited in the Mormon afterlife, however Jesus when asked this question specifically denied it( story about the woman who's husband died and according to jewish custom the deceased's brother had to marry her then he died and his brother after him etc. Asked which brother would be her husband at the resurection Jesus replied that they were in error as after death those deemed worthy became as the angels, not marrying nor giving in marriage).

You can look up the bible references if you want, but that's not the point. Given that the LDS believes the bible to be the Word of God, how can the LDS doctrine and Jesus disagree and both be right?

The mormon missionaries were not able to answer this question and did not return. Are you able to? Would you prefer to live in an illusion? Or are you so hot for your intended you don't care?

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

My personal belief is that if you live a life where you are true to yourself, you will be blessed with eternal happiness, whether or not you believe in "GOD" or "JESUS" I find it much more important to believe in what the teachings of God and Jesus. If Mormonism requires you to believe a story that you don't believe, don't become one, that's dishonest. If the teachings are good, then by all means become one if it helps you out on your life.

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

which is true ...he was a thief,liar and small time crook.

but then again King David was a liar,adulterer, murderer and a bad father. yet he wrote the psalms and spoke to god directly

Digital never forget: god chooses his vessels and vassals not you or i.

GOOD POINT. :-)

Except David followed God with all his heart. He was a sinner, just like the rest of us...

Joseph Smith was a sinner, just like David was, but the difference is that David saw God as He commands us to see Him: as the Almighty Creator of the universe.

Joseph Smith claims that God wasn't God before, and that He ascended into His current "God"-ness.

As I have said before, Smith also practiced polygamy, and several other abominations listed in the Bible.

Not to mention he called the Bible (the inerrant word of God) a book of lies, by changing it, and manipulating it to serve his own selfish purposes.

There is a definitive contrast between David and Joseph Smith...and it would behoove you to study it deeper.

quote:Originally posted by HomerJay603:

I spoke with missionaries today, and I brought up all the anti-mormon points you told me about.

Every one is a lie or a misinterpretation.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I've made my decision.

Next week I'm going to set the date for my baptism.

I know the book of mormon is the truth.

I know Joseph Smith was a prophet.

I will not be convinced differently.

.

Perhaps instead of listening entirely to anti-mormon sources you should sit down with a couple of missionaries and listen to them with an open mind.

I used to think as you think now that mormons are a cult, and that every one of them, us, are going to hell.

This is simply not true.

If, as standard christians believe, the key to salvation is belief in Jesus Christ as your savior and the son of god, then how are mormons not saved?

.

Thank you all for the help, but my mind is made up.

I backed my refutations with scripture.

What did the missionaries back up THEIR assertion that what I posted was ALL misinterpretation with ?

You couldn't have possibly sat down and discussed everything I posted in one sitting.

So, either you are a liar (which I am cautious to accuse anyone of), or you didn't adequately research the points I gave. If a blanket statement was used (i.e. "Those are just misrepresentations.") then you ought to do the research yourself.

Most of the sites I got my information from (about Joseph Smith) weren't even Christian. It's historical that he was a creep, and his blatant disregard for God's word, and his claim that God somehow needed him to further perpetuate His word, only proves that he couldn't possibly have been a vessel FOR God, but rather a vessel for Satan.

That fact alone should scare you away from it.

Another thing to consider is their secretive "societal" type organization. You can't just "be" a mormon. You have to be brought into the church by another Mormon. Very little is known about the actual teachings behind the pulpits. Doesn't that make you worry ?

Also, their churches are FAR TOO extravagant to mirror the life and teachings of Christ, which are the single-most important in the entire Bible.

Why do they need to lace their buildings in gold, and build ominously enormous structures in order to converge in praise and worship of God ?

The answer is that they don't.

This exhibits an act of idolatry...of themselves.

The core of salvation (i.e. entrance into heaven) is the belief and acceptance of Jesus Christ as your savior. The belief that he died on the cross, to pay for your sin.

That's it.

Mormonism is so far off the mark...it is impossible to see how you couldn't determine why it would prevent you from gaining entrance into heaven.

You have obviously made your choice...I will pray for you.

This has truly made me sad.

And if the points I made are lies, please uncover them.

I am willing to learn, but I have seen no evidence (worth listening to) that would refute what I have posted.

I don't just base my opinion on what these websites report to be the truth.

My first and foremost source for the TRUTH is the Bible.

Are you calling God a liar ?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:





Are you calling God a liar ?

pwned.



Edit: I'm kind of embarrassed that this is my 1000th post.

[This message has been edited by SurahAhriman (edited 10-27-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

GOOD POINT. :-)

Except David followed God with all his heart. He was a sinner, just like the rest of us...

Joseph Smith was a sinner, just like David was, but the difference is that David saw God as He commands us to see Him: as the Almighty Creator of the universe.

Joseph Smith claims that God wasn't God before, and that He ascended into His current "God"-ness.

As I have said before, Smith also practiced polygamy, and several other abominations listed in the Bible.

Not to mention he called the Bible (the inerrant word of God) a book of lies, by changing it, and manipulating it to serve his own selfish purposes.

There is a definitive contrast between David and Joseph Smith...and it would behoove you to study it deeper.

actually i have studied at length (goes with having a mormon wife and being a trained theologian).

yes of course there are many stark contrasts between JS and David. that wasn't the point i was making but rather god uses often unlikely vessels.

and as to the bible (which you call your only source of truth elsewhere)

i have to ask 'which?' there are so many bibles (and i don't mean different translations).

i don't know how much you know about the bible and its history but most christians don't realise that the bible as they envision doesn't exist and never has....at least in regard to the NT. (OT is far more reliable).

and polgamy certianly is biblical and the only provision against it in the NT regards 'office holders' in the congregation.

You will find just as much Athiest anti Mormon stuff as you will Christian.

Theres even rather detrimental stuff at religioustolerance.org, and they are so liberal and unbiased that they get hate mail from the religious right.

The LDS had racism institutionalized dammit...

and I hope you don't enjoy sex...

quote:Originally posted by SurahAhriman:

pwned.



Edit: I'm kind of embarrassed that this is my 1000th post.

[This message has been edited by SurahAhriman (edited 10-27-2004).]

Surah while you were away someone instituted the pwned variation for this forum: gwned (God owned)

Do muslim martyrs get awned (Allah owned)?

HomerJay -

* The "First Vision" story in the form presented to you was unknown until 1838, eighteen years after its alleged occurrence and almost ten years after Smith had begun his missionary efforts. The oldest version of the vision is in Smith's own handwriting, dating from about 1832 (still at least eleven years afterwards), and says that only one personage, Jesus Christ, appeared to him. It also mentions nothing about a revival. It also contradicts the later account as to whether Smith had already decided that no church was true. Still a third version of this event is recorded as a recollection in Smith's diary, fifteen years after the alleged vision, where one unidentified "personage" appeared, then another, with a message implying that neither was the Son. They were accompanied by many "angels," which are not mentioned in the official version you have been told about. Which version is correct, if any? Why was this event, now said by the church to be so important, unknown for so long?

* Careful study of the religious history of the locale where Smith lived in 1820 casts doubt on whether there actually was such an extensive revival that year as Smith and his family later described as associated with the "First Vision." The revivals in 1817 and 1824 better fit what Smith described later.

* In 1828, eight years after he says he had been told by God himself to join no church, Smith applied for membership in a local Methodist church. Other members of his family had joined the Presbyterians.

* Contemporaries of Smith consistently described him as something of a confidence man, whose chief source of income was hiring out to local farmers to help them find buried treasure by the use of folk magic and "seer stones." Smith was actually tried in 1826 on a charge of moneydigging.

* The only persons who claimed to have actually seen the gold plates were eleven close friends of Smith (many of them related to each other). Their testimonies are printed in the front of every copy of the Book of Mormon. No disinterested third party was ever allowed to examine them. They were retrieved by the angel at some unrecorded point. Most of the witnesses later abandoned Smith and left his movement. Smith then called them "liars."

* Smith produced most of the "translation" not by reading the plates through the Urim and Thummim (apparently a pair of sacred spectacles), but by gazing at the same "seer stone" he had used for treasure hunting. He would place the stone into his hat, and then cover his face with it. For much of the time he was dictating, the gold plates were not even present, but in a hiding place.

* The detailed history and civilization described in the Book of Mormon does not correspond to anything found by archaeologists anywhere in the Americas. The Book of Mormon describes a civilization lasting for a thousand years, covering both North and South America, which was familiar with horses, elephants, cattle, sheep, wheat, barley, steel, wheeled vehicles, shipbuilding, sails, coins, and other elements of Old World culture. But no trace of any of these supposedly very common things has ever been found in the Americas of that period. Nor does the Book of Mormon mention many of the features of the civilizations which really did exist at that time in the Americas. The LDS church has spent millions of dollars over many years trying to prove through archaeological research that the Book of Mormon is an accurate historical record, but they have failed to produce any convincing pre-columbian archeological evidence supporting the Book of Mormon story. In addition, whereas the Book of Mormon presents the picture of a relatively homogeneous people, with a single language and communication between distant parts of the Americas, the pre-columbian history of the Americas shows the opposite: widely disparate racial types (almost entirely east Asian - definitely not Semitic, as proven by recent DNA studies), and many unrelated native languages, none of which are even remotely related to Hebrew or Egyptian.

* The people of the Book of Mormon were supposedly devout Jews observing the Law of Moses, but in the Book of Mormon there is almost no trace of their observance of Mosaic law or even an accurate knowledge of it.

* Although Joseph Smith said that God had pronounced the completed translation of the plates as published in 1830 "correct," many changes have been made in later editions. Besides thousands of corrections of poor grammar and awkward wording in the 1830 edition, other changes have been made to reflect subsequent changes in some of the fundamental doctrine of the church. For example, an early change in wording modified the 1830 edition's acceptance of the doctrine of the Trinity, thus allowing Smith to introduce his later doctrine of multiple gods. A more recent change (1981) replaced "white" with "pure," apparently to reflect the change in the church's stance on the "curse" of the black race.

* Joseph Smith said that the Book of Mormon contained the "fulness of the gospel." However, its teaching on many doctrinal subjects has been ignored or contradicted by the present LDS church, and many doctrines now said by the church to be essential are not even mentioned there. Examples are the church's position on the nature of God, the Virgin Birth, the Trinity, polygamy, Hell, priesthood, secret organizations, the nature of Heaven and salvation, temples, proxy ordinances for the dead, and many other matters.



* Many of the basic historical notions found in the Book of Mormon had appeared in print already in 1825, just two years before Smith began producing the Book of Mormon, in a book called View of the Hebrews, by Ethan Smith (no relation) and published just a few miles from where Joseph Smith lived. A careful study of this obscure book led one LDS church official (the historian B. H. Roberts, 1857-1933) to confess that the evidence tended to show that the Book of Mormon was not an ancient record, but concocted by Joseph Smith himself, based on ideas he had read in the earlier book.

* Although Mormons claim that God is guiding the LDS church through its president (who has the title "prophet, seer and revelator"), the successive "prophets" have repeatedly either led the church into undertakings that were dismal failures or failed to see approaching disaster. To mention only a few: the Kirtland Bank, the United Order, the gathering of Zion to Missouri, the Zion's Camp expedition, polygamy, the Deseret Alphabet NOTES. The most recent example is the successful hoax perpetrated on the church by manuscript dealer Mark Hofmann in the 1980s. He succeeded in selling the church thousands of dollars worth of manuscripts which he had forged. The church accepted them as genuine historical documents. The church leaders learned the truth not from God, through revelation, but from non-Mormon experts and the police, after Hofmann was arrested for two murders he committed to cover up his hoax. This scandal was reported nationwide.

* The secret temple ritual (the "endowment") was introduced by Smith in May, 1842, just two months after he had been initiated into Freemasonry. The LDS temple ritual closely resembles the Masonic ritual of that day.

* Smith explained that the Masons had corrupted the ancient (God-given) ritual by changing it and removing parts of it, and that he was restoring it to its "pure" and "original" (and complete) form, as revealed to him by God. In the 150 years since, the LDS church has made many fundamental changes in the "pure and original" ritual as "restored" by Smith, mostly by removing major parts of it.

* Many doctrines which were once taught by the LDS church, and held to be fundamental, essential and "eternal", have been abandoned. Whether we feel that the church was correct in abandoning them is not the point; rather, the point is that a church claiming to be the church of God takes one "everlasting" position at one time and the opposite position at another, all the time claiming to be proclaiming the word of God. Some examples are:

- The Adam-God doctrine (Adam is God the Father)

- the United Order (all property of church members is to be held in common, with title in the church)

- Plural Marriage (polygamy; a man must have more than one wife to attain the highest degree of heaven)

- the Curse of Cain (the black race is not entitled to hold God's priesthood because it is cursed; this doctrine was not abandoned until 1978)

- Blood Atonement (some sins - apostasy, adultery, murder, interracial marriage - must be atoned for by the shedding of the sinner's blood, preferably by someone appointed to do so by church authorities)

All of these doctrines were proclaimed by the reigning prophet to be the Word of God, "eternal," "everlasting," to govern the church "forevermore." All have been abandoned by the present church.

* Joseph Smith's early revelations were collected and first published in 1833 in the Book of Commandments. God (as recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants Sections 1 and 67) supposedly testified by revelation that the revelations as published were true and correct. Because the Book of Commandments did not receive wide distribution (most copies were destroyed by angry opponents of the Mormons in Missouri, where it was published), they were republished - with additional revelations - as the Doctrine and Covenants in 1835 in Kirtland, Ohio. However, many of the revelations as published in Kirtland differed fundamentally from their versions as originally given. The changes generally gave more power and authority to Smith, and justified changes he was making in church organization and theology. The question naturally arises as to why revelations which God had pronounced correct needed to be revised.

* Joseph Smith claimed to be a "translator" by the power of God. In addition to the Book of Mormon, he made several other "translations":

- The Book of Abraham, from Egyptian papyrus scrolls which came into his possession in 1835. He stated that the scrolls were written by the biblical Abraham "by his own hand." Smith's translation is now accepted as scripture by the LDS church, as part of its Pearl of Great Price. Smith also produced an "Egyptian Grammar" based on his translation. Modern scholars of ancient Egyptian agree that the scrolls are common Egyptian funeral scrolls, entirely pagan in nature, having nothing to do with Abraham, and from a period 2000 years later than Abraham. The "Grammar" has been said by Egyptologists to prove that Smith had no notion of the Egyptian language. It is pure fantasy: he made it up.

- The "Inspired Revision" of the King James Bible. Smith was commanded by God to retranslate the Bible because the existing translations contained errors. He completed his translation in 1833, but the church still uses the King James Version.

- The "Kinderhook Plates," a group of six metal plates with strange engraved characters, unearthed in 1843 near Kinderhook, Illinois, and examined by Smith, who began a "translation" of them. He never completed the translation, but he identified the plates as an "ancient record," and translated enough to identify the author as a descendant of Pharaoh. Local farmers later confessed that they had manufactured, engraved and buried the plates themselves as a hoax. They had apparently copied the characters from a Chinese tea box.

* Joseph Smith claimed to be a "prophet." He frequently prophesied future events "by the power of God." Many of these prophecies are recorded in the LDS scripture Doctrine and Covenants. Almost none have been fulfilled, and many cannot now be fulfilled because the deeds to be done by the persons named were never done and those persons are now dead. Many prophecies included dates for their fulfillment, and those dates are now long past, the events never having occurred.

* Joseph Smith died not as a martyr, but in a gun battle in which he fired a number of shots. He was in jail at the time, under arrest for having ordered the destruction of a Nauvoo newspaper which dared to print an exposure (which was true) of his secret sexual liaisons. At that time he had announced his candidacy for the presidency of the United States, set up a secret government, and secretly had himself crowned "King of the Kingdom of God."

* Since the founding of the church down to the present day the church leaders have not hesitated to lie, to falsify documents, to rewrite or suppress history, or to do whatever is necessary to protect the image of the church. Many Mormon historians have been excommunicated from the church for publishing their findings on the truth of Mormon history.

REFUTE THESE PLEASE.

(If you can't, you should think twice about dedicating your life to a religion you don't truly understand.)

quote:Originally posted by SurahAhriman:

pwned.



Edit: I'm kind of embarrassed that this is my 1000th post.

[This message has been edited by SurahAhriman (edited 10-27-2004).]

I'm not. Thanks, kid. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:I spoke with missionaries today, and I brought up all the anti-mormon points you told me about. Every one is a lie or a misinterpretation.

From the ExMormon.org website:

"The Mormon missionaries are often charming and enthusiastic. They have an attractive story to tell. At first it sounds wonderful. But remember the old saying, "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is!" Be careful not to fall into the trap of believing something simply because you want it to be true. Mormons may tell you that those who criticize the church are lying, misquoting and distorting. If you examine the sources used by the critics, however, you will discover that most of their source material is from official or semi-official Mormon writings. You, too, should examine those sources."

- http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 10-27-2004).]

HOMER JAY!!!!!

MY GOD! DO NOT GET BAPTISED!

I dated a mormon girl for 2 years. I know how it feels. You want to make her happy, and the more you look into it it seems like mormonism could really be good for you. I know.

However.

Joseph Smith is a false prophet.

Here's the proof (http://www.carm.org/lds/ldspapyri.htm)

I encourage you to read that whole page, but i'll break it down in a nutshell (as i've done many times on this forum http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)).

The entire Mormon faith relys on the ability of Joseph Smith to translate unreadable languages. He called himself a "seer", he used this ability to translate the Golden Plates into the book of mormon. He also retranslated the bible so that it would be compatible with Smith's "new testament".

However. He also translated some other stuff. In 1835, an ancient document was found in Egypt. Many experts were invited to come and try to translate the document. Joseph Smith was one of the invited.

Upon examining the document, Smith claimed that the document showed the burial of Abraham. The church purchased the papyri and Smith translated the whole thing.

The translation makes up part of "A Pearl of Great Price", which, along with The Book of Mormon, the Retranslated Bible, Doctrine and Convenants, makes up LDS doctrine.

Here's where the whole thing falls apart:

The papyri was thought to have been destroyed in a fire. But in 1966, the papyri was found. In 1966, we were capable of reading Egyptian hieroglyphics.

Now. If the modern translation matched up with Smith's translation, Mormonism would all but be proven true. It would prove beyond a doubt that Smith's "Seer" abilities were truly supernatural, and it would go a great length to validate Smiths other translations I listen above.

Needless to say, the translations do not match. They are not even close. The documents show the embalming and resurection of Osiris, the egyption god of the underworld.

I have a lot of respect for the LDS faith, and an undying respect for the people who follow the faith. But their faith is not true.

If it could be proven that Christ did not rise from the dead, it would prove the christian faith untrue because the resurrection is foundation to christianity.

Such is with Joseph Smith's Seer ability. When i explored the Mormon faith i always wondered what happened to the Golden Plates. Now i know that even if the plates were real, it is unlikely that Smith could have translated them.

Soon after breaking up with my girlfriend i gave my life to jesus. The mormon faith made me examine what i believed spiritually and without mormonism, it is unlikely i would've found christ. I suggest you go on the same search.

theBishop

PS: i hope to god that you haven't already been baptised.

For goodness sake, atheists and more "liberal" christians, as well as hardliners are telling you, for fucks sake, look at both sides, don't rush into something without looking carefully at both sides, as in, really carefully.

Did you read my post Homer, did you schedule your baptism yet? Again, i cannot stress strong enough that you do not get baptised.

Get Baptised kid.

IF you think thats where god is leading you.

what a lot of posters here seem to forget is that the accusations against the LDS also apply equally to almost all denominations.

(if anyone here doesn't believe me then tell me what church/group you belong to and if i get time i'll get the books outta the attic and dig up the dirt.)

ALL have fallen short of the truth and have left undone that which they should have done.

quote:Originally posted by HomerJay603:

Six months ago yesterday I had my first date with an amazing girl. We hit it off right away, and since then we've been virtually inseperable.

She is mormon.

At first I thought this was a bad thing. I figured our relationship wouldn't go anywhere because I could never become one of them. I had been taught by my asshole baptist priests that mormonism was a cult, and that all mormons go to hell. Then I started going to church with her, and I realized all of this was a lie.

Since then I've taken several steps farther, speaking with missionaries and reading the book of mormon, and the more I think about it the more true this religion seems to me.

Anywho, before I go take the plunge (literally) and get baptised, I figured I'd ask the people of totse if they have any good, honest, intellectual reasons why mormonism is wrong.

And I really don't want to have to deal with the judgemental shit, if you don't have a decent response, please don't respond.

Thanks

Homer

Only be a Mormon if YOU want to, not becuase some girl, who you'l probably brake up with in the future.

jackketch, Did you read my post? The inventor of mormonism is a proven fraud. Say what you want about Chrsitianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, etc. They haven't been irrefutably proven false. Mormonism has.

MY accusations do not apply equally to any other religion.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

jackketch, Did you read my post? The inventor of mormonism is a proven fraud. Say what you want about Chrsitianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, etc. They haven't been irrefutably proven false. Mormonism has.

MY accusations do not apply equally to any other religion.

bishop,did you read my post? you are confusing a 'faith' or 'religion' (ie christianity) with a 'confession' or 'denomination' (ie baptist,mormon,methodist).

and yes the histories of all DENOMINATIONS are full of lies,fraud,murder,idolatory and sex. (probably because all were founded by human beings.)

But mormonism is not christianity. The bible is an account written by dozens of people. The book of mormon was "translated" by one man, and that man's translation ability is dubious at best.

Meh, if God is truly all-loving, then it shouldn't matter one way or the other.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

But mormonism is not christianity. The bible is an account written by dozens of people. The book of mormon was "translated" by one man, and that man's translation ability is dubious at best.

it certainly isn't mainstream christian thats for sure BUT it is a denomination of christianity (ie they believe and profess jesus to be the 'christ'...however strange their interpretation of it may seem to you or me).

personally i find mormonism no stranger than catholocism or pentacostalism(?).

and yes JS' ability to translate even english is doubtful and yes (as i said before) his character was rotten.

Read "Under the Banner of Heaven" by...well...that guy who wrote the book "Into Thin Air", Jon something. Contains the early history of Mormonism, along with the disturbing Mormon Fundamentalist movement of today.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

But mormonism is not christianity. The bible is an account written by dozens of people. The book of mormon was "translated" by one man, and that man's translation ability is dubious at best.



Yes, but only slightly more dubious than the Bible.

Your choice, but you asked for the negitive points so here it goes:

1. no protection so a bunch of kids (unless you want that)

2. no mind altering substances

3. wierd underwear

4. 10% of income to the church

5. mission 4 2 years wastingur life

most of the bad things about it in life, although I wont even go into the afterlife.

I dont think so, but do what you want.

I feel it is the people that have been misled by the religion, alot of them are extremely kind giving people who would cut off their leg if you needed one, but I do not feel it is correct.

I was originally a catholic, as were my other family members as well and had served as an alterboy for a few years as well.

I used to be mormon for four years.

One day my mom started reading the literature she found in a doctors office and eventually she called up some missionaries for home teaching to teach us about the book of mormon, and eventually I got sucked into the baptismal font as well :]

Read some articles on why some people are so anti-mormon and eventually that was enough for me to quit.

There are alot of articles on reasons to leave the religion and some other weird practices they do as well, as for some of the shady history of Joseph Smith.

Might want to read into some of the boligamous teachings that they tried to hide as well as the blood atonements as well that are performed inside the temple that they teach no one about :]

Also, about the ten percent tithing thing, my mother was on an extremely tight budget where we sometimes went through periods where we had to choose what bills to pay and what to put off untill next month ( bill rotation :[ ) they talked to her constantly about tithing, she showed them the budget she was working with and tried to show us that we could do it, but we could not, there was simply not enough to spare.

She paid what little should could at times she could, but they would never let her go to the temple because she wasnt paying all of the 10 percent.

Eventually though I started questioning my life back and forth wondering what was truely out there.

If your intentions are to marry this girl if you think you would make a wonderful family together and you dont care less about becoming mormon, then maybe you should tell her your true feelings on what you feel about joining, and that you wish to stay the same religion as you are currently, this would be the relationship breaker if she doesnt love you as much as she should.

Also because of peoples awareness to the whole subject on boligamy being related to mormonism, the church leaders were actually trying to migrate from people calling themselves the more common label of being mormon to instead being LDS or Latter Day Saint as a way to avoid the situations and convert more people through the church, sounds like deception to me.

Oh and when we quit we were getting about 40 phone calls a day from different members who were concerned about us, yes they set up a whole calling list to have all your friends call your number and desperately try to convert you back untill you threaten legal action to where they finally stop.

I think that is all I have to say now.

[This message has been edited by Omyn (edited 11-01-2004).]

quote:h and when we quit we were getting about 40 phone calls a day from different members who were concerned about us, yes they set up a whole calling list to have all your friends call your number and desperately try to convert you back untill you threaten legal action to where they finally stop.

that surprised me muchly. one of the things that impressed me about the LDS was the way they let my wife leave the church.

the bishop came round and had a chat then said 'if you've prayed about this then do it. however we won't take you off the list for a year.'

after a year an elder came round-asked if my wife still felt the same way and on hearing that she did, prayed with us and blessed us then went.

a few weeks later she got the offical 'de membership' letter in the post and also a message saying that if we ever needed anything to call them.

it saddens me to think that this might not always be the case.

Well, let me say since it's come up a few times that tithing is not exclusive to Mormonism.

2 Corinthians 9:6-7

But this [I say], He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.

Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, [so let him give]; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

Christians are expected to tithe as their heart dicates. In general, I believe this to be out of the motivation to not idolize money more than it is something to keep the corporate church afloat.

Atheists will scoff at this, but i often find that the more i give, the better i am financially. I've never felt like my giving went unrewarded. It's an issue of faith. Tithing is something i try to be very prayerful about.

It's troubling to me that Omyn's mother was denied entrance into the lavish temples because she hadn't tithed a full 10%. That is a disgrace.

While i was with my mormon girlfriend, her sister had gotten pregnant with a man she was not married to. I don't know if she was full-on excommunicated, but she was definitely expected to not return. At the time i don't think she was really upset about it though. Wow, the more i think about it, that family was really destroyed by the LDS church.

theBishop

I dated a mormon chick too for a while....seemed like it was getting serious, even talked about hypothetical situations if we got married, etc... I told her there was no way I'd ever convert. It's a ridiculous religion, based on absurd stories. Though it's message is good; caring, love, charity, etc....but you can do all that without going through all the rituals and stuff. I mean no logical/rational person can actually believe the crap they preach about how the mormon religion was started.....anyways broke it off with the mormon chick, not because of religion getting in the way....she was just a psychotic pathological liar.

just like her prophet. no ... that's not fair... yes it is.