Their feature article is titled "The God Gene: Does our DNA compel us to seek a higher power? Believe it or not, some scientists say yes." I just picked it up so I haven't read it yet, but it looks interesting.

They also included some silly "How spiritual are you?" quiz. (I am "highly spiritual, a real mystic" apparently.)

Anyway, just thought I'd mention it.

I wonder why some people interpret this as meaning that spiritual truths do not exist. All it means, fundamentally, is that religious experience manifests biological symptoms.

Besides, if it's in our DNA, atheists are forced to accept that it's a fundamental part of our personalities and existence, and they therefore can't argue that religion was created to enslave man, since every human being is thus compelled to spirituality.

In fact, I've always argued that humanity has an automatic, intrinsic compulsion to believe in spiritual truths. That they may have found a biological correspondence only verifies it on a biological and beastly level I had no interest in investigating.

I'll have to pick it up some time.

Yeah, I have a subscription to it, so I've already read it. Very interesting. It is a very Buddhist concept, in my opinion, so it's not too shocking to me. Read more about the Buddhist idea of "karma seeds".

I still haven't made up my mind on the whole "nature vs. nurture" argument, though. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

I wonder why some people interpret this as meaning that spiritual truths do not exist. All it means, fundamentally, is that religious experience manifests biological symptoms.



I know. I haven't read much about DNA and religious belief, although I've read quite a bit about the neurophysiological basis of religious belief. It's funny because both camps (theists and atheists) have claimed that the recent findings of neurotheology support their belief systems. Some theists will say, "A-ha! Atheists are just deficient human beings!" while some atheists will say, "A-ha! This proves that God is just in your heads!"

It doesn't prove anything. Whether God exists or not, our body (particularly the processes of our brain) would naturally be the source of religious belief and experience. Like you, I feel this is obvious.

Whether God exists or not, our body (particularly the processes of our brain) would naturally be the source of religious belief and experience. Like you, I feel this is obvious.

That's actually not what I said.

You can't ignore a cause simply by calling an effect a cause. If you're depressed about something, the serotonin levels in your brain would drop. The drop in serotonin levels is therefore the consequence of the circumstances from without that made you depressed - death, illness, lost love, et cetera. A pure atheist would see in the serotonin levels a cause of the depressive behavior.

The latter is the conclusion atheists would want you to come to, when a quick observation of your own personal circumstances show you otherwise.

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

Whether God exists or not, our body (particularly the processes of our brain) would naturally be the source of religious belief and experience. Like you, I feel this is obvious.

That's actually not what I said.

You can't ignore a cause simply by calling an effect a cause. If you're depressed about something, the serotonin levels in your brain would drop. The drop in serotonin levels is therefore the consequence of the circumstances from without that made you depressed - death, illness, lost love, et cetera. A pure atheist would see in the serotonin levels a cause of the depressive behavior.

The latter is the conclusion atheists would want you to come to, when a quick observation of your own personal circumstances show you otherwise.

Let me rephrase that, then:



Whether God exists or not, the way one would empirically "measure" religious belief or experience is through brain or bodily processes. I didn't mean to imply that God could not be the source of religiosity, if that's what you thought. Poor choice of words, I suppose.

As for your serotonin example: would you say that serotonin depletion could never be the cause of depression, and is always the consequence? My own personal experience leads me to different conclusions than yours.

I might ask: have you ever tried MDMA?

I didn't mean to imply that God could not be the source of religiosity, if that's what you thought.

Oh. OK, then.

... would you say that serotonin depletion could never be the cause of depression, and is always the consequence?

Not exclusively, no. There are some people that simply don't have enough tryptophan in their body to allow serotonin to be produced. However, the example was a more common circumstance than most pharmacologists are willing to believe. For more information concerning this dilemma, read Healing the Soul in the Age of the Brain by Dr. Elio Frattaroli.

...have you ever tried MDMA?

I don't think I've ever heard of MDMA, but I have taken psilocybin.

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

I didn't mean to imply that God could not be the source of religiosity, if that's what you thought.

Oh. OK, then.

... would you say that serotonin depletion could never be the cause of depression, and is always the consequence?

Not exclusively, no. There are some people that simply don't have enough tryptophan in their body to allow serotonin to be produced. However, the example was a more common circumstance than most pharmacologists are willing to believe. For more information concerning this dilemma, read Healing the Soul in the Age of the Brain by Dr. Elio Frattaroli.

...have you ever tried MDMA?

I don't think I've ever heard of MDMA, but I have taken psilocybin.



Okay then - as long as you didn't think serotonin depletion could never be the cause of depressive feelings.

You probably have heard of MDMA. It's commonly called "Ecstasy", a term I don't like to use much because you never know what you're getting today when you buy "Ecstasy." You hope to get MDMA, but the pill may not contain that at all. Anyway, I mentioned it because MDMA works by releasing excessive amounts of serotonin in the brain. As a result, the user is likely to feel a bit depressed in the days following ingestion.

Oh, and lucky you; I've been on a personal quest for psilocybin for several years. Perhaps it will come my way when the time is right.

Thanks for the book recommendation. It looks like something that might interest me.

Psilocybin is the only drug I would ever recommend, and even then, not habitually. Do it ceremoniously, on a special occasion, with religious, spiritual, or transcendental intentions.

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

Psilocybin is the only drug I would ever recommend, and even then, not habitually. Do it ceremoniously, on a special occasion, with religious, spiritual, or transcendental intentions.

Why only psilocybin? What about other psychoactives that have been used in religious contexts (peyote, ayahuasca, & ibogaine, to name only a few)?

My intentions for using it are religious/spiritual, by the way. On the other hand, I consider everything to be religious/spiritual, so take that how you will.

In other words, to "heighten" any spiritual experience you may encounter ?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

In other words, to "heighten" any spiritual experience you may encounter ?



I'm not sure what you mean. Could you clarify?

When I take mushrooms it's like everything is a spiritual event, so I always wonder, why dont I normally understand things like this?

After reading some info on the Qabballah, I would say that psilocybin removes some or all of the veils that normally separates a person from - god? - the spiritual realm? - whatever I really dont know, but the veil part definatly seems right.

quote:Originally posted by penjo0in:

When I take mushrooms it's like everything is a spiritual event, so I always wonder, why dont I normally understand things like this?

After reading some info on the Qabballah, I would say that psilocybin removes some or all of the veils that normally separates a person from - god? - the spiritual realm? - whatever I really dont know, but the veil part definatly seems right.



As an experienced drug user, I would say that anything experienced under the influence of drugs is not a genuine spiritual experience, it is just an hallucination. I was once like you, I believed that drugs gave me some greater connection with the spiritual world, but that was often just an excuse for my drug use.

In my opinion, drugs will lead you away from spiritual truths more than they will lead you towards them. Drugs just play around with your brain chemistry, creating the illusion that you have found something meaningful, but it reality, it is just a ghost that will fade away as soon as you come down from your high.

PS-Just my opinion.



[This message has been edited by Social Junker (edited 10-25-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Lolita:



I'm not sure what you mean. Could you clarify?

Taking drugs that increase serotonin levels.

The purpose of which is to heighten the enjoyment, or even achievement, of such spiritual experiences ?

quote:Originally posted by Social Junker:



As an experienced drug user, I would say that anything experienced under the influence of drugs is not a genuine spiritual experience, it is just an hallucination. I was once like you, I believed that drugs gave me some greater connection with the spiritual world, but that was often just an excuse for my drug use.

In my opinion, drugs will lead you away from spiritual truths more than they will lead you towards them. Drugs just play around with your brain chemistry, creating the illusion that you have found something meaningful, but it reality, it is just a ghost that will fade away as soon as you come down from your high.

PS-Just my opinion.



[This message has been edited by Social Junker (edited 10-25-2004).]

I agree with Social.

And yes, I was a heavy drug user as a teenager...not speaking from inexperience here.

Soc hit the nail on the head.

quote:Originally posted by Social Junker:



As an experienced drug user, I would say that anything experienced under the influence of drugs is not a genuine spiritual experience, it is just an hallucination. I was once like you, I believed that drugs gave me some greater connection with the spiritual world, but that was often just an excuse for my drug use.

In my opinion, drugs will lead you away from spiritual truths more than they will lead you towards them. Drugs just play around with your brain chemistry, creating the illusion that you have found something meaningful, but it reality, it is just a ghost that will fade away as soon as you come down from your high.

PS-Just my opinion.



[This message has been edited by Social Junker (edited 10-25-2004).]



Mystical experiences are just alterations in brain chemistry, too. In fact, there have been numerous recent studies that show that mystical experience, whether reached by "drugs" or by "religious activities" (prayer, meditation, etc.) are identical on a neurophysiological level. Fundamentally, they are the same experience.

Of course, one could say that drug-induced mystical experiences are not spiritual enough because they're immediate rather than the result of long, hard work and discipline. Mystical experience in a bottle (or a pill), if you will. I obviously can't refute this, since it's an opinion.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Taking drugs that increase serotonin levels.

The purpose of which is to heighten the enjoyment, or even achievement, of such spiritual experiences ?

Technically, MDMA doesn't increase serotonin levels, but I won't get into pharmacology here. I'll save that for BLTC. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

I'm not sure how to respond to your comment. I've had various "spiritual" experiences with chemical assistance, although not all of them were pleasant or enjoyable.

Touche' !

You said:

quote:Originally posted by Lolita:

Technically, MDMA doesn't increase serotonin levels, but I won't get into pharmacology here. I'll save that for BLTC. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

but earlier you said this:

quote:Anyway, I mentioned it because MDMA works by releasing excessive amounts of serotonin in the brain.

*confuzzled*

quote:Originally posted by Lolita:



Mystical experiences are just alterations in brain chemistry, too. In fact, there have been numerous recent studies that show that mystical experience, whether reached by "drugs" or by "religious activities" (prayer, meditation, etc.) are identical on a neurophysiological level. Fundamentally, they are the same experience.



Ah, you are referring to DMT, the "Spirit Molecule"? If so, I have heard about that before, it is very interesting. And, yes, the point I was trying to make with my original post was that a spiritual experience earned is more valuable than a pseudo-experience created by drugs.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

You said:

Anyway, I mentioned it because MDMA works by releasing excessive amounts of serotonin in the brain.



I think what she was trying to say is this: (This is going to be extremely simplified) In the synaptic bulb, there are vesicles (tiny balls or storage compartments) of serotonin, which are usually released (in small amounts) when stimulated by an electrochemical impluse into the synaptic gap. MDMA causes all of the serotonin to be dumped at the same time, flooding the synaptic gap with serotonin.

[This message has been edited by Social Junker (edited 10-25-2004).]

I see.

So, an increased level of serotonin is not produced; rather, the present serotonin is simply released at an enhanced rate.

Wouldn't the body need to produce serotonin faster, to accomodate the sudden increased expulsion of the already existing serotonin ?

quote:Originally posted by Social Junker:

Ah, you are referring to DMT, the "Spirit Molecule"? If so, I have heard about that before, it is very interesting. And, yes, the point I was trying to make with my original post was that a spiritual experience earned is more valuable than a pseudo-experience created by drugs.

I wasn't referring to that specific book, but I do have it. (I have lots of books and articles on religious experience and psychoactive chemicals. I wanted to specialize in that field, actually, but have since moved on to other things.) ZIG ZAG ZEN: BUDDHISM AND PSYCHEDELICS is a book that may interest you. It's a compilation of different accounts and experiences, and not all of them are "pro-drug." Wonderful illustrations, too. Also, this is a good article that I've always liked:

"The New Alchemy" by Alan Watts

http://www.psychedelic-library.org/alchemy.htm

It may interest you.

Oh, and DS, Social got it right. Basically, MDMA does not increase serotonin levels in the brain, although it does increase the amount that is released at one time.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I see.

So, an increased level of serotonin is not produced; rather, the present serotonin is simply released at an enhanced rate.



Exactly. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

As to your other question, that I'm not sure of. I'm going to go out on a limb, and say, "no", because there is a big debate raging in the drug community about excessive MDMA use causing depression, due to depleted serotonin levels. The argument is that repeated MDMA use depletes serotonin faster than the body can replace it, causing depression. This is also the basic model for depression that doctors use today, minus the MDMA in the equation (add stress, for example), of course.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I see.

So, an increased level of serotonin is not produced; rather, the present serotonin is simply released at an enhanced rate.

Wouldn't the body need to produce serotonin faster, to accomodate the sudden increased expulsion of the already existing serotonin ?

As far as I know, no, the body doesn't compensate for this sudden expulsion by producing serotonin at faster rates. It takes a couple weeks for your serotonin to reach normal levels after taking MDMA. Hence the association of Ecstasy use and (temporary) depression.

I might add that this is the "official" explanation, although I haven't found it to be true for myself. I've never really felt depressed after taking MDMA, although I know I'm supposed to. It makes sense scientifically.

quote:Originally posted by Lolita:

I wasn't referring to that specific book, but I do have it. (I have lots of books and articles on religious experience and psychoactive chemicals. I wanted to specialize in that field, actually, but have since moved on to other things.) ZIG ZAG ZEN: BUDDHISM AND PSYCHEDELICS is a book that may interest you. It's a compilation of different accounts and experiences, and not all of them are "pro-drug." Wonderful illustrations, too. Also, this is a good article that I've always liked:

"The New Alchemy" by Alan Watts

http://www.psychedelic-library.org/alchemy.htm

It may interest you.



Thanks, I've got a lot of reading to do!

*puts on reading glasses*

I admit to being an advocate and user of Cannabis. Ibogaine also interests me heavily in it's addiction destroying properties.

DMT I also find quite interesting but I'm afraid to use any Hallucinigen, and I won't use anything hard.

quote:Originally posted by Keltoiberserker:

Ibogaine also interests me heavily in it's addiction destroying properties.



Have you tried ibogaine? Just curious, because it's rather hard to come by. (Unless you travel to Africa or spend thousands of dollars at a particular addiction clinic in the Caribbean.)

I wrote a paper last semester on the use of ibogaine by the Fang tribe in Gabon. It's a fascinating substance.

quote:Originally posted by Lolita:

I might add that this is the "official" explanation, although I haven't found it to be true for myself. I've never really felt depressed after taking MDMA, although I know I'm supposed to. It makes sense scientifically.

Me either.

That is interesting, though...

I think I have a serotonin imbalance, because I have the exact opposite effect after taking MDMA.

Well, at least I used to. I think the last time was when I was 17. (ah, the glory days)

It's good to know old school hippies if you want to be a druggie (at least one that stays alive !).

But anyway, this has peaked interest in me, so I think I will look it up.

Thanks !

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Me either.

That is interesting, though...

I think I have a serotonin imbalance, because I have the exact opposite effect after taking MDMA.

Well, at least I used to. I think the last time was when I was 17. (ah, the glory days)

It's good to know old school hippies if you want to be a druggie (at least one that stays alive !).

But anyway, this has peaked interest in me, so I think I will look it up.

Thanks !



Ah, so you've taken it! Interesting.

What are you looking up, by the way? The effect that MDMA has on serotonin?