I don't think there is anything to debate about on this paper, but I found it an interesting way of explaining free will, and the existence of evil.

- http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ124.HTM

Thoughts ?

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 10-25-2004).]

I particularly like this portion:

"But why would God create a man who would even have that potentiality in the first place ?

Does that not still place responsibility for evil on God, and cast doubt on His goodness (perhaps even His omniscience – knowing what would happen), as He could have created otherwise, being omnipotent ?

Protestant philosopher Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz (1646-1716) answered this worthy and important question in the following fashion:

'[i]The question is asked first of all, whence does evil come ?...we, who derive all being from God, where shall we find the source of evil ?

The answer is, that it must be sought in the ideal nature of the creature, in so far as this nature is contained in the eternal verities which are in the understanding of God, independently of His will. For we must consider that there is an original imperfection in the creature before sin, because the creature is limited in its essence; whence ensues that it cannot know all, and that it can deceive itself and commit other errors...properly speaking, the formal character of evil has no efficient cause, for it consists in privation, as we shall see, namely, in that which the efficient cause does not bring about. That is why the Schoolmen are wont to call the cause of evil deficient.

(Theodicy, 1710, translated by E.M. Haggard, New Haven: Yale Univ. Press, 1952, 135-136)

Frederick Copleston, the noted Jesuit historian of philosophy, wrote of Leibniz’ free will theodicy, and the above citation:

Metaphysical evil is imperfection: and this is the imperfection involved in finite being as such. Created being is necessarily finite, and finite being is necessarily imperfect; and this imperfection is the root of the possibility of error and evil...

The ultimate origin of evil is thus metaphysical, and the question arises, how God is not responsible for evil by the mere fact that He created the world, thus giving existence to limited and imperfect things. Leibniz’s answer is that existence is better than non-existence...since the imperfection of the creature does not depend on the divine choice but on the ideal essence of the creature, God could not choose to create without choosing to create imperfect beings. He chose, however, to create the best possible world.

Considered simply in itself the divine will wills simply the good, but ‘consequently’, that is, once given the divine decision to create, it wills the best possible. ‘God wills antecedently the good and consequently the best’ [Leibniz]. But He could not will ‘the best’ without willing the existence of imperfect things. Even in the best of all possible worlds creatures must be imperfect.

(A History of Philosophy, vol. 4: Modern Philosophy: Descartes to Leibniz, Garden City, NY: Doubleday Image, 1960, 330-331)"

It does a pathetic atempt at explaining evil, that is, if it wants to keep both the possibility of an omnipotent god, and an all-loving god.

If an omnipotent being exists, he must have the power to create humans that have free will, but that will not choose evil.

The fact that he didn't means he is either not omnipotent, or not all loving.

Leibniz! My first philosophy paper ever was a refutation of his free will theodicy, way back in '97. Damned if I remember what it said, although I probably still have it lying around somewhere. (I save everything.) Of course, that was during my atheist/strict materialist phase, so I'm sure my opinions are somewhat different now.

Unfortunately, I don't have time to read the link you posted. I'm about to head out to eat soon...

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

It does a pathetic atempt at explaining evil, that is, if it wants to keep both the possibility of an omnipotent god, and an all-loving god.

If an omnipotent being exists, he must have the power to create humans that have free will, but that will not choose evil.

The fact that he didn't means he is either not omnipotent, or not all loving.

Then you didn't understand the paper.

How surprising ! http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

It wasn't pathetic...but I knew you'd say that anyway.

Go ahead and prove to us all how it was "pathetic".

I am not a christian, but damn people, go read the book of job, God is testing us. See in heaven we have all of eternity to do whatever we want, now if every dipshit in the world got to go to heaven and fuck around with all their new abilities very few people would actually have that eternal bliss we all hear about. So only the best behaved humans get to enjoy the benifits of heaven.

Haha. Actually, I just found the paper:

"A Refutation of Leibniz's Solution to the Problem of Evil: The Incompatability of His Theodicy with His Theocracy." I'm over here critiquing my own work; I can't believe I wrote this.

Anyway, in the paper I mention that Leibniz didn't believe in miracles. Naturally, I offer no evidence supporting this (ah, the wonderful scholarship of a teenager). Can someone more familiar with his works confirm this? Is it true - did he reject the existence of miracles?

Lolita, by all means, EAT, girl ! http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

Read it when you can...

That's great that you know the material. I sure didn't...

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Lolita, by all means, EAT, girl ! http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)



My dinner meeting was moved back to 7:30, actually. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Lolita -

*blank stare*

Sorry.

If this is the best possible world that an omnipotent god could come up with, I suppose then that the Christian heaven must be a sinful place or it could have been created in the first place, thus skipping the fall of man etc.

You presume to know the mind of God, with that statement.

What more would you expect ? (you seem to imply that this universe is not impressive enough)

Digital_Savior:

You presume to know the mind of God, with that statement.

Please expound. I'm just going by what Christianity teaches(and what the article is talking about, for that matter).

What more would you expect ? (you seem to imply that this universe is not impressive enough)

Is the Christian heaven going to be better than this world(supposedly sinless, for starters)? Will the creatures there be perfect? If so on both accounts then the Christian god did not choose to create the best possible world in the first place, which is my point of contention with the excerpt. Additionally, why did it not do so, for that matter?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Then you didn't understand the paper.

How surprising ! http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

How does that prove that I didn't understand the paper? I was stating a fact, aimed at you saying it was an " interesting way of explaining free will, and the existence of evil". I'm merely saying the paper does not explain how an all-loving, and omnipotent being would allow for suffering or "evil". It attempts to, but ultimately fails for the reasons I stated above. Reasons, which surprisingly you didn't reply to...



quote:

Go ahead and prove to us all how it was "pathetic".

I can't prove that, because that's my personal opinion; just like you can't prove it isn't pathetic. Though, I can give an argument on why I think it is pathetic, which I already did.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 10-26-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by R_I:

[b]Digital_Savior:

You presume to know the mind of God, with that statement.

[quote]Please expound. I'm just going by what Christianity teaches(and what the article is talking about, for that matter).

Ok, here is what you said:

quote:If this is the best possible world that an omnipotent god could come up with, I suppose then that the Christian heaven must be a sinful place or it could have been created in the first place, thus skipping the fall of man etc./

You "supposed" that Heaven must be a sinful place, using the earth as a basis for comparison. (you must consider that the imperfect nature we were created with IS part of the perfect plan of God. If it weren't, that nature wouldn't exist.)

There can be no such comparison, as humanity has never experienced anything like Heaven, nor will it ever.

Our SOULS will, but WE (our physical bodies) won't.

So, you are presuming to know what God's intentions were when He created us, when that presumption is entirely impossible to make. Even Christians don't know...He doesn't tell us in the Bible. The Bible DOES say that all questions will be answered upon entrance into Heaven.

What more would you expect ? (you seem to imply that this universe is not impressive enough)

quote:Is the Christian heaven going to be better than this world(supposedly sinless, for starters) ?

Yes. Most assuredly.

Have you read Revelation ? It was my favorite book, back in my early Christian days.

Heaven is described in great detail.

"Heaven is a place of unspeakable glory where the elect of God live with one another in the immediate presence of God and of the Lamb and where they behold Him in all His glory face to face. It is a place where the curse of sin and all of its effects have been removed forever from all who dwell there; they, being made joint heirs with Christ, inherit all things and live with unmixed joy in a state of perfect happiness incapable of being described or exaggerated forever and ever." (Please click HERE: http://www.intoutreach.org/heaven.html for the full description of Heaven)

"In heaven there will be no sin, suffering, sorrow, or pain. We will never do anything to displease God. There will be no persecution, division, disunity, or hate. In heaven there will be no quarrels or disagreements. There will be no disappointments. There will be no weeping because there will be nothing to make us sad. We will then know perfect pleasure. Psalm 16:11 says, "In Thy presence is fullness of joy; in Thy right hand there are pleasures forever." Everything that now makes us groan will finally be done away with, and we will find ourselves in the very presence of God, where the purest and truest kind of pleasure is possible. In heaven we will also have perfect knowledge. Paul writes, "Then shall I know even as also I am known" (1 Cor. 13:12). We will have no more unanswered questions, no confusion, no ignorance, and no more need to walk by faith rather than by sight. We will live in perfect comfort. We will never experience one uncomfortable moment. We will finally know perfect love. We will love God perfectly and will be loved perfectly by Him for all eternity. His love will engulf us forever. We could summarize by saying that heaven is a place of perfect joy. Think of it: we will finally be perfectly free from evil forever. We will never again have a selfish desire or utter useless words. We will never perform another unkind deed or think a sinful thought. We will be perfectly liberated from our captivity to sin, and finally able to do that which is absolutely righteous, holy, and perfect before God. With sin and its effects erased forever, it will be a life of unimaginable blessing!" - http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/tract.htm

(sounds idealistic, but it's written in the Bible, so...)

quote:Will the creatures there be perfect?

Creatures = our souls, and the angels.

We will have Perfect Knowledge, and Perfect Love.

I have to assume that our "entities" (meaning bodies, for lack of a better term) will be perfect as well.

No reason why they wouldn't be.

"We are made in the image and likeness of God. That image may have been marred by original sin, but it can be restored. It is brought to perfection through Jesus Christ in a way that simply was not possible in Adam, for the New Adam supersedes and perfects the old in a way not available to the first Adam, even if he had not fallen." - http://www.bridegroompress.com/sc/deify.htm

quote:If so on both accounts then the Christian god did not choose to create the best possible world in the first place, which is my point of contention with the excerpt.

This supports my statement that you presume to know what God "thinks", "feels", and "intends".

He created the best possible for the purpose in which He intended.

"God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness."

"God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good."

"The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good."

"So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good."

"God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good."

"God saw all that he had made, and it was very good."

(Genesis 1:4-31)

Good = Pleased, Satisfied

If it was "good" enough for Him, then it ought to be good enough for us, because He has a plan, and it is for good.

Jeremiah 29:11 - "For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD , "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."

quote:Additionally, why did it not do so, for that matter?

Honestly, I don't know. (mark your calendars, boys !)

That is not revealed to us, and therefor should not hold any significance to us, if we trust His might and discernment wholeheartedly.

I wonder the same things that you do, but I don't make it a matter that will make or break my faith, because the things I am supposed to know and understand have been revealed to mankind.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

[quote]How does that prove that I didn't understand the paper? I was stating a fact, aimed at you saying it was an " interesting way of explaining free will, and the existence of evil". I'm merely saying the paper does not explain how an all-loving, and omnipotent being would allow for suffering or "evil". It attempts to, but ultimately fails for the reasons I stated above. Reasons, which surprisingly you didn't reply to...

You are manipulating the words again. (but hey, don't change...stick to what you're good at)

Let me get you back on track.

The purpose of the paper was to attempt to give an explanation for the EXISTENCE of EVIL.

Not to explain God's purpose for creating evil, or "allowing" it.

While you may think those two points are similar, I assure you that they are not.

Is God Malevolent, Weak, or Non-Existent Because of the Existence of Evil and Suffering ?

That's the subtitle for the paper.

EDIT: Perhaps in retrospect, we can both see that we might be off the mark a bit when it comes to the "purpose" of this paper.

quote: I can't prove that, because that's my personal opinion; just like you can't prove it isn't pathetic. Though, I can give an argument on why I think it is pathetic, which I already did. [This message has been edited by Rust (edited 10-26-2004).]

Does the author not:

- Write a strong thesis statement

- Set up his argument and position it in a research context

- Structure a literature review

- Map out an argument

- Engage critically with his sources

- Draw attention to his own ideas

- Provide detailed analysis for the point made

???

Those are, in my opinion, the qualifications of a respectable paper, and he met all of those.

Simply because he failed to CONVINCE you of his point does not determine that his

paper was pathetic.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 10-26-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Is God Malevolent, Weak, or Non-Existent Because of the Existence of Evil and Suffering

Key word, MALEVOLENT. My reply is therefore 100% relevant, since the article does not refute the notion that the Christian god is not Malevolent. THAT's my point.

Not to mention that by not disproving his Malevolence, the article by default doesn't refute an argument of his non-existence.



quote: Perhaps in retrospect, we can both see that we might be off the mark a bit when it comes to the "purpose" of this paper.

No. Since you have yet to show how I was "off mark". The article's own sub-title, which in a bit of irony, you provided, shows that my replies were completely relevant.

quote:

Simply because he failed to CONVINCE you of his point does not determine that his

paper was pathetic

Who in the world said that?

Once again, it was my OPINION. That it is not pathetic in YOUR eyes does not mean it is not pathetic in MY eyes.



[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 10-26-2004).]

Digital_Savior:

If I miss out on some lines, it's because I have no response for them. Also, please bear in mind that I'm discussing the excerpt. Your belief's might be different and might warrant another thread or something.

You "supposed" that Heaven must be a sinful place, using the earth as a basis for comparison.

Yes, if the world that we are in already is the best possible one, according to the excerpt the Christian heaven must be as good or worse, right?

(you must consider that the imperfect nature we were created with IS part of the perfect plan of God. If it weren't, that nature wouldn't exist.)

Unsupported assertions. Back up your statements about there being a god, there being a perfect plan from said god and what you said about our "sinful" nature not existing without the plan.



There can be no such comparison, as humanity has never experienced anything like Heaven, nor will it ever.

But we have descriptions from your bible. I'm working with what we've got.



So, you are presuming to know what God's intentions were when He created us, when that presumption is entirely impossible to make.

Hey, you're the one who's telling me about your god's plans.



Even Christians don't know...He doesn't tell us in the Bible. The Bible DOES say that all questions will be answered upon entrance into Heaven.

More unsupported assertions. How do we know that the bible is telling the truth? Why should we trust it?



Yes. Most assuredly.

Have you read Revelation ? It was my favorite book, back in my early Christian days.

Heaven is described in great detail.

"Heaven is a place of unspeakable glory where the elect of God live with one another in the immediate presence of God and of the Lamb and where they behold Him in all His glory face to face. It is a place where the curse of sin and all of its effects have been removed forever from all who dwell there; they, being made joint heirs with Christ, inherit all things and live with unmixed joy in a state of perfect happiness incapable of being described or exaggerated forever and ever." (Please click HERE: http://www.intoutreach.org/heaven.html for the full description of Heaven)

"In heaven there will be no sin, suffering, sorrow, or pain. We will never do anything to displease God. There will be no persecution, division, disunity, or hate. In heaven there will be no quarrels or disagreements. There will be no disappointments. There will be no weeping because there will be nothing to make us sad. We will then know perfect pleasure. Psalm 16:11 says, "In Thy presence is fullness of joy; in Thy right hand there are pleasures forever." Everything that now makes us groan will finally be done away with, and we will find ourselves in the very presence of God, where the purest and truest kind of pleasure is possible. In heaven we will also have perfect knowledge. Paul writes, "Then shall I know even as also I am known" (1 Cor. 13:12). We will have no more unanswered questions, no confusion, no ignorance, and no more need to walk by faith rather than by sight. We will live in perfect comfort. We will never experience one uncomfortable moment. We will finally know perfect love. We will love God perfectly and will be loved perfectly by Him for all eternity. His love will engulf us forever. We could summarize by saying that heaven is a place of perfect joy. Think of it: we will finally be perfectly free from evil forever. We will never again have a selfish desire or utter useless words. We will never perform another unkind deed or think a sinful thought. We will be perfectly liberated from our captivity to sin, and finally able to do that which is absolutely righteous, holy, and perfect before God. With sin and its effects erased forever, it will be a life of unimaginable blessing!" - http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/tract.htm[/b]

I am familiar with the bible. I was a Christian once as well. Now, from the description, isn't the Christian heaven a better world than the one that we live in now? This seems to conflict the the excerpt about how the world we live in is already the best possible one.



(sounds idealistic, but it's written in the Bible, so...)

So I don't take such fantastic claims seriously.



Creatures = our souls, and the angels.

We will have Perfect Knowledge, and Perfect Love.

I have to assume that our "entities" (meaning bodies, for lack of a better term) will be perfect as well.

No reason why they wouldn't be.

"We are made in the image and likeness of God. That image may have been marred by original sin, but it can be restored. It is brought to perfection through Jesus Christ in a way that simply was not possible in Adam, for the New Adam supersedes and perfects the old in a way not available to the first Adam, even if he had not fallen." - http://www.bridegroompress.com/sc/deify.htm[/b]

Bunch of unsupported assertions. But even if I grant them to be true, they conflict the excerpt that claims that even in the best possible world creatures must be imperfect.



This supports my statement that you presume to know what God "thinks", "feels", and "intends".

Again, I'm just working with what I got. I've got to start somewhere and presumptions are alright, I think. Feel free to correct them.



He created the best possible for the purpose in which He intended.

"God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness."

"God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good."

"The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good."

"So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good."

"God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good."

"God saw all that he had made, and it was very good."

(Genesis 1:4-31)

Good = Pleased, Satisfied

If it was "good" enough for Him, then it ought to be good enough for us, because He has a plan, and it is for good.

Juxtapose this with the grief that it supposedly felt when it all went to shit(pardon the expression). As an aside, he must've seen it coming. I wonder if he already felt the grief before-hand.

And again, unsupported assertions. We do not know that it created the best possible world for the purpose in which it intended. You don't even know what it intends, right?



Jeremiah 29:11 - "For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD , "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."

I see no reason to believe this just because you pulled it our of your bible. And if the world is an indication of the Christian god's plans to prosper and not harm us, I'd hate to see what would happen in a world where it has plans to harm us.



Honestly, I don't know. (mark your calendars, boys !)

But it's all ok because it goes into your magic box of faith that helps you to ignore all doubts, right?



That is not revealed to us, and therefor should not hold any significance to us, if we trust His might and discernment wholeheartedly.

Why should we trust it? Also, I would rather not be kept ignorant. Or rather, until it is revealed to me, is it not reasonable for me to have doubts and not believe first?



I wonder the same things that you do, but I don't make it a matter that will make or break my faith, because the things I am supposed to know and understand have been revealed to mankind.

I disdain faith. It's more or less wishful thinking. You want to believe and you ignore any problems or downplay them.

EDIT's: Just some typos and tag issues.

[This message has been edited by R_I (edited 10-26-2004).]

quote:"In heaven there will be no sin, suffering, sorrow, or pain. We will never do anything to displease God. There will be no persecution, division, disunity, or hate. In heaven there will be no quarrels or disagreements. There will be no disappointments. There will be no weeping because there will be nothing to make us sad. We will then know perfect pleasure. Psalm 16:11 says, "In Thy presence is fullness of joy; in Thy right hand there are pleasures forever." Everything that now makes us groan will finally be done away with, and we will find ourselves in the very presence of God, where the purest and truest kind of pleasure is possible. In heaven we will also have perfect knowledge. Paul writes, "Then shall I know even as also I am known" (1 Cor. 13:12). We will have no more unanswered questions, no confusion, no ignorance, and no more need to walk by faith rather than by sight. We will live in perfect comfort. We will never experience one uncomfortable moment. We will finally know perfect love. We will love God perfectly and will be loved perfectly by Him for all eternity. His love will engulf us forever. We could summarize by saying that heaven is a place of perfect joy. Think of it: we will finally be perfectly free from evil forever. We will never again have a selfish desire or utter useless words. We will never perform another unkind deed or think a sinful thought. We will be perfectly liberated from our captivity to sin, and finally able to do that which is absolutely righteous, holy, and perfect before God. With sin and its effects erased forever, it will be a life of unimaginable blessing!"

That sounds like the most hideously boring place imaginable.

From an episode of Duckman (http://imdb.com/title/tt0108755/), entitled "The Gripes of Wrath"

quote:I believe you presented Loretta with one of the quintessential paradoxes of the modern era. The idea that the most perfect world is an imperfect world, because imperfection creates the drive in people to make things better.

It was a good effort, but in the end, as Rust said, was pathetic.

could god create a pizza to big for even him to eat?

think about it

If heaven does exist, and it is as described in the bible, then any claim that it is dull is foundless, because you would be perfectly happy there. Said happiness would supercede any dullness, otherwise it would not be perfect.

On another note, it doesn't actually say that our questions will be answered. It says we will have no unanswered questions. That includes the possibility that we will no longer wish to know the answers, smothered as our minds would be by perfect happiness. That seems far more likely, as the only way to ensure harmony. I also don't like how we're not allowed to speak, because any word uttered would be useless.

quote:Originally posted by Charles Thunder:

That sounds like the most hideously boring place imaginable.

Here Here. That's why I feel we make our own heaven and hell on earth with our lives. Be the miracle.

That'll do for corny cliches for the moment. Regardless of there corniness and clicheness I find them to be true. Just think about what they mean and not that that school special you saw said them.