I have been thinking about this for the last few days and I was wondering what everyone else had to say about it.

IF GOD DOES EXIST:

Since the bible says god is all knowing, that means that he knows everything you and I will be thinking and doing before we are even born. This also means that he knows if we are going to heaven or hell, and when we are going to 'sin', so what I am thinking is, if we do something wrong, god already knew we were going to do it, and we had no actually choice in the matter.

So who gives a shit what we do, god already knew we were going to do it before we were born, we have no real choice, we cannot even ask ourselves why because if got did exist, he already knew that we would ask ourselves this.

Our lives are already pre-determined and viewed.



IF GOD DOESN'T EXIST:

Then there is no life after death (possible re-incarnation) and that means that i should live life to the fullest coz its the only shot i will ever have, or in the case of re-incarnation i will not remember it.

So we should do whatever the fuck we want, without though of morals, then some.



Therfore life is pointless, and is a movie that god created for himself to watch, even though he knows the ending.

If people say that god knows all but is hoping that we belive in him, then this is bullshit because god would be lying to himself if he knew how it all turned out and if god lies to himself, wats stopping him from lying to everyone else about everything.

-if this happens and god does exist, then everything the bible says is false.

You will never learn the truth for sure in your lifetime. You may never even figure it out after death.

Just stop thinking about it. Reflection on the origins of the universe can surely only lead to madness.

But surely the only choice we have is to either except that we have no choice, or not to.

Once we except this, whetter we chose to live life or to end it, we didnt really have this choice, because our lives have already been viewed therefore predetermined.

But if god doesn't exist...



[This message has been edited by tricky (edited 10-26-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by tricky:

I have been thinking about this for the last few days and I was wondering what everyone else had to say about it.

IF GOD DOES EXIST:

Since the bible says god is all knowing, that means that he knows everything you and I will be thinking and doing before we are even born. This also means that he knows if we are going to heaven or hell, and when we are going to 'sin', so what I am thinking is, if we do something wrong, god already knew we were going to do it, and we had no actually choice in the matter.

So who gives a shit what we do, god already knew we were going to do it before we were born, we have no real choice, we cannot even ask ourselves why because if got did exist, he already knew that we would ask ourselves this.

Our lives are already pre-determined and viewed.



IF GOD DOESN'T EXIST:

Then there is no life after death (possible re-incarnation) and that means that i should live life to the fullest coz its the only shot i will ever have, or in the case of re-incarnation i will not remember it.

So we should do whatever the fuck we want, without though of morals, then some.



Therfore life is pointless, and is a movie that god created for himself to watch, even though he knows the ending.

If people say that god knows all but is hoping that we belive in him, then this is bullshit because god would be lying to himself if he knew how it all turned out and if god lies to himself, wats stopping him from lying to everyone else about everything.

-if this happens and god does exist, then everything the bible says is false.



This is the same thing (more or less) as Rust has been saying, but if God is also omnipotent, then He has the power to keep freewill and predestination seperate.

Ofcourse we have a free will everything has a free will.

All I am saying is we have no choice it what we freely decide because god knows that we will chose this way in advance.

Personally I'm not sure whether or not God does exist but going with your reasoning, you’re saying that no matter what you do, who you kill or rape it isn’t your fault because God knew you would do and did nothing to stop you?

Which is of course wrong because ultimately you made the choice to commit that sin. God himself did nothing to influence you, he only knew the outcome but that doesn’t make the punishment any less just.

I remember I heard once that God gave us the implements to commit sin, so that we would have free will. And so that we could choose between doing what we want, and doing what is right.

IF GOD DOES EXIST:

Since the bible says god is all knowing, that means that he knows everything you and I will be thinking and doing before we are even bron. This also means that he knows if we are going to heaven or hell, and when we are going to 'sin', so what I am thinking is, if we do something wrong, god already knew we were going to do it, and we have no actually choice in the matter.

So who gives a shit what we do, god already knew we were going to do it before we were born, we have no real choice, we cannot even ask ourselves why because if got did exist, he already knew that we would ask ourselves this.

Our lives are already pre-determined and viewed.

A gay argument to a bullshit complaint that ultimately confuses dimensions and concepts.

You obviously have a choice in all matters concerning the human dimension, because you're the one who decides it. Whether or not it was predetermined on a metaphysical plane is of absolutely no consequence to you whatsoever. Stop complaining about it as if God set your transcripts on fire as they were en route to MIT because HE doesn't want you to be an engineer.

IF GOD DOESN'T EXIST:

Then there is no life after death (possible re-incarnation) and that means that i should live life to the fullest coz its the only shot i will ever have, or in the case of re-incarnation i will not remember it.

So we should do whatever the fuck we want, without though of morals, then some.

Therfore life is pointless, and is a movie that god created for himself to watch, even though he knows the ending.

You therefore condone rape, indiscriminate genocide, and the construction of financial juggernauts that destroy the integrity of mankind on all conceivable planes of existence. Cool.

Face it. You are alive, healthy, conscious, well-fed, limitedly intelligent and rational, possibly educated through school, somewhat capable of abstract conceptual thought, oriented towards some occupation, potentially physically fit, maybe sexually satisfied, emotionally content, and perhaps even spiritually sound - all because your parents, teachers, comrades, sexual partners, and even you yourself didn't simply 'do whatever the fuck they wanted'. There was an ethical obligation beyond hedonism somewhere in this equation, regardless of the person's belief in the existence of God.

Just think about it, properly think about it, if there was a god,as in jehova, there is no reason why he would not show his influence, he did it all the time in "The Bible" but suddenly if you ask him to perform a miricale, its all "I dont need to prove anything" well obviously you do if Christianity is on its arse.

Also it is obvious that all gods are fabrications of humans, since isolated civilizations all come up with different forms of divine creator theories, but usually fit 1 of 2 moulds, either there is one great being that created everything (Mono-theism - Jehova,Allah) or that a group of gods (Poly-theism) created everything (Paganism, Hinduism, Egyptism(?) ect)

a major flaw is that with many of the early transcripts show major beliefs that have been decimated by science aka How the solar system actually formed, Evolution, carbon dating things to "pre-universe times" 6000BC according to jewish orthadox ect.

Anyway must dash, John Peel just died.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



This is the same thing (more or less) as Rust has been saying, but if God is also omnipotent, then He has the power to keep freewill and predestination seperate.

Then he also has the power to let us only do good things, while keeping free will. He didn't do this, so god is no all-loving.

The afterlife is an ideological reaction to the fear of death. Heaven and Hell are used as positive and negative reinforcements for doing what the religious establishment demands.

The question is: What do you want for your life? What is divine to you? In other words, figure out what you value the most and worship it. Worship them as gods or as ideals, not that I'm sure there is a difference.

For me, my gods are life, liberty and possibility. My gods take various forms of these sacred values. That is my religion. Remember, each of us have the right to beleive in whatever gods we choose. We do not have to accept the dicatates of any religious establishment, nor be forced into a depressing atheism. There is little practical difference in believing that no gods exist and in believing that ALL gods exist. Worship what you love, even if its' a woman, or an activity. Make it your religion. Find your idols.

quote:Originally posted by The_Rabbi:

Just stop thinking about it. Reflection on the origins of the universe can surely only lead to madness.

I once thought I was mad. Then I realised how stupid I was being and couldn't stop laughing.

Sempre Solipsist:

Bullshit.

The only type of religion that is worth keeping around is the kind that creates a mold for the man, the woman, the family, the aristocratic society, the state, and the empire, with religious rituals and rites dispersed appropriately among them, to make each corresponding subject fundamentally better in all respects.

[EDIT: someone posted before me, so I had to specify that I was talking to SS.

[This message has been edited by Tyrant (edited 10-26-2004).]

I would have to agree with tyrant on that one. Anyway, there could be a God, but who's to say that the people who wrote the bible, new testament and old, didn't botch up on something or misunderstood. Or perhaps they had it all wrong.

Read Holy Blood, Holy Grail. They botched it up big-time.

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

Read Holy Blood, Holy Grail. They botched it up big-time.

I've read that quite a few years ago. Not very convincing.

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

Sempre Solipsist:

Bullshit.

The only type of religion that is worth keeping around is the kind that creates a mold for the man, the woman, the family, the aristocratic society, the state, and the empire, with religious rituals and rites dispersed appropriately among them, to make each corresponding subject fundamentally better in all respects.



Did you actually read what I wrote? You offered no retort to my piece. Instead you just offered up Nietzche's version of paganism. Or was it Life and Liberty you were calling bullshit?

* Holy Blood, Holy Grail was an excellent book, but it did have a lot of holes in it.

The Christians have been rewriting history for so long anyway its' hard to tell any truth from fiction.

I said "Bullshit" in reference to the idea that any religion any person decides is best for them, IS best for them. After all, there are a hell of a lot more Christians than pagans in the world; I don't trust majority rule on that one.

you shouldn't do whatever the fuck you want, because people are capable of wanting multiple outcomes for a given situation, and doing "whatever the fuck you want" could result in you suffering a great deal while you are alive.

You have to understand the concept of knowing everything. You can watch a cow standing on the train tracks, and you can predict that its gonna get hit by a train, it can move out o the way or it can stay there, and you understand that. The reason you can do that is because your brain has a certain amount of processing power, if you will. Well the christian god has unlimited processing power, so when you're born god knows all the possible outcomes your life will have.

And i believe there are probably higher powers, but i dont believe in the christian god or any religions god or god

If you are a christian and you don't know why people are atheists, ask yourself if you believe in greek, roman, and norse gods. we have the same amount of proof for both those gods and any god that is part of religion today.

Listen closely to the words of arcane faiths, and you will begin to know that they say the same thing.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Then he also has the power to let us only do good things, while keeping free will. He didn't do this, so god is no all-loving.



Yes, He has that power. God not doing this only means that He didnt do this.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

Yes, He has that power. God not doing this only means that He didnt do this.



If it would have been better why didn't he do it?

Are we living in the best of all possible worlds?

If this world is so amazing then why do many religious people brush it off as worthless?

I don't believe we have an afterlife, but I do believe this world is an amazing place that we shouldn't say is worthless based on the possibility of something more later. That would be insulting to the maker (if one really exists). Quit living your life based on a book of Jewish folktales and stories written by men who already believed in something subjectively.

Religion is just an attempt to explain why we are here. I believe there are no answers because we are just a happy accident, but people are going to believe what they're going to believe.

Someday people may find out the things that we wonder about. It could be tomorrow, it could be in 50,000 years. Humans will probably have evolved a little by then anyway. Maybe then they won't even care? Who knows.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

Yes, He has that power. God not doing this only means that He didnt do this.



The fact that he lets evil happen refutes that he is all-loving!

So no. "God not doing this" does not just mean he "didn't do it". It also means he's not all-loving.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

The fact that he lets evil happen refutes that he is all-loving!

So no. "God not doing this" does not just mean he "didn't do it". It also means he's not all-loving.



Rust, weren't you one of the ones that say that there is no good and bad because it is all subjective? If you were one of the people that feel this way, how can you say that there is evil?

quote:Originally posted by Fanglekai:

If it would have been better why didn't he do it?

The Bible answers this question. The short answer is .. yet. But this "begs the question".



If this world is so amazing then why do many religious people brush it off as worthless?

i cant think of one believer that feels it is worthless.



Quit living your life based on a book of Jewish folktales and stories written by men who already believed in something subjectively.

Let me ask you this: Why do you care that i or anyone else believes in what you think are just "a book of Jewish folktales and stories written by men"?

Rust:

So a parent that sacrifices his child's happiness to teach him a lesson in maturity does not love his child?

Fanglekai:

If this world is so amazing then why do many religious people brush it off as worthless?

Because even diamonds, amazing thought they may be, become dust.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



Rust, weren't you one of the ones that say that there is no good and bad because it is all subjective? If you were one of the people that feel this way, how can you say that there is evil?



Well, I don't recall saying that in the past few months, though I have said that a few times before. In short, yes, I do believe that.

Yet, the subjectiveness of evil and good is of no consequence to the paradox. Christianity says there is "sin" and this is labeled as "bad" (evil) by it. That what Christianity labels as sin (and thus evil) exists, ultimately refutes the existence of an omnipotent, all-loving god.

Moreover, to answer your last question, evil would still 'exist', to those who hold that it does exist, since it is a subjective matter.

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

Rust:

So a parent that sacrifices his child's happiness to teach him a lesson in maturity does not love his child?



He would love his child, in my opinion, if he honestly believes he is doing what is best for his child.

But that has nothing to do with the bible god. To use your scenario as an example, an omnipotent god could teach the child a lesson in maturity without having to sacrifice the child's happiness.

That's when the problem occurs. If evil exists, then that omnipotent being is letting it exist, but, unlike your scenario where the 'need' for a lesson in maturity would necessitate the existence of unhappiness, the existence of evil is not necessary since that god can do anything it wants without needing the existence of evil.

It therefore chooses to include evil and sin, and therefore cannot be considered "all-loving".



[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 10-31-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

He would love his child, in my opinion, if he honestly believes he is doing what is best for his child.

But that has nothing to do with the bible god. To use your scenario as an example, an omnipotent god could teach the child a lesson in maturity without having to sacrifice the child's happiness.

That's when the problem occurs. If evil exists, then that omnipotent being is letting it exist, but, unlike your scenario where the 'need' for a lesson in maturity would necessitate the existence of unhappiness, the existence of evil is not necessary since that god can do anything it wants without needing the existence of evil.

It therefore chooses to include evil and sin, and therefore cannot be considered "all-loving".

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 10-31-2004).]

Not that this matters in the conversation, but i read somewhere that the indians (feather, not dot) would tell the children not to play by the fire, once. If the kids continued to play by the fire, they allowed them to, until one got burnt. They would then pull them out of the fire, nothing said but lesson learned. I dont know if what i read was true, nor can i remember where i read it, but it has always been in the back of my mind ever since.

quote:

indians (feather, not dot)



uh-oh, we have a smart one on our hands

quote:Originally posted by megalomaniac:

uh-oh, we have a smart one on our hands





LOL...gee, thanks, <<blush>> LOL

ALLAH lets evil exist cause he is testing you

ALLAH is trying to see if you truly believe in him