so they say we have free will right? but they also say that god has a plan for us. so then they say its our choice on whether we choose to follow it or not. but if he is all powerful and shit, he created our plan. so really we have no choice at all.

do you believe in free will or not?

i believe in fate and nothing else. no god or anything. its much easier that way.

I think fate is retarded. Everything happens because people choose to do things and whats the point in thinking it was fate?

[This message has been edited by jm5k (edited 10-30-2004).]

This has been done many times, and recently too.

To save you the wait, nobody's given an answer that satisfies both this and Christianity.

quote:Originally posted by jm5k:

I think fate is retarded. Everything happens because people choose to do things and whats the point in thinking it was fate?

[This message has been edited by jm5k (edited 10-30-2004).]

to make everything that happens not your fault. i am a loser who doesnt like to take responsibility

How can we tell weather we are in control or not? Fate seems like an excuse for what we do, a cop out for all the shit in the world. Its peace of mind.

quote:Originally posted by succhia:

so they say we have free will right? but they also say that god has a plan for us. so then they say its our choice on whether we choose to follow it or not. but if he is all powerful and shit, he created our plan. so really we have no choice at all.

do you believe in free will or not?

i believe in fate and nothing else. no god or anything. its much easier that way.

__________________________________________________ __



Fate, God's plan, all the same.



A better question might be: Are fate and free will mutually exclusive?

Apparently for Christians;no.

I have not seen how the Christian god's omniscience, omnipotence and creation's supposed free will can be reconciled.

The Christian god knew the choices that people would make if it created a world and then it went on to do so. It set up all the causes in such a way that everything would play out just like it had envisioned. Did Adam have any choice but to eat of the tree of knowledge? I don't think so.

So yeah, I'd like to hear from someone who disagrees.

I think free will means if there is a 'God', he gives us free will to let him in to are lifes and be Christain, or walk away from him and be part of another religion.

That kind of free will is like a man telling his girlfriend that she's free to break up with him and see someone else but if she does so he'll blow her brains out.

No. It's even worse. If an omnipotent being exists, you wouldn't even be free to choose him or not choose him; it would already have been chosen by him, an infinite amount of years before you were even born!

So if you don't believe in him, he actually made you not to!

Yeah, I agree, as detailed in my post about how I cannot see the Christian god's omniscience and it being the one who created this world being reconciled with man's supposed free will.

listen. do not think too hard, leave that until the end of what i have to tell you.

If an omnipotent being exists, then his will is free to do anything.

now think. do you believe in free will?

God is not some snickering trickster who's going to slash your tires on the way to a job interview because he doesn't want you to get said job; whether or not your decisions are predetermined is inconsequential to you as an individual who obviously makes free decisions on a daily basis.

Free in what way? If we were set up to do something, are we really free even if we think that we are? Even without predetermination, we are not free in many aspects. For example, I cannot choose to teleport a million miles at a blink of my eyes.

you can't teleport a million miles away because that's against physics as we know it.

free will does not equal omnipotence anyway, the point is moot.

just because God knows the future doesn't mean you don't have free will. he can know everything and not do anything about it. you dont know what you're going to do yet, well he does know, the idea is that he knows you so well he knows everything you will ever do. he did make you after all! just because he knows what you're going to do doesn't mean you have no choice in the matter. it's like he knows the end result, and how you'll get to it.

that's the idea, not that i subscribe to it.

I repeat, the point is not that the Christian god only knows what you are going to do. It was the one that set everything up by way of creation. It was the one that made you in such a way that you would do everything that it had envision would happen.

It knew that if it created man then they would fail given the starting causes and by golly, it went ahead and did just that.

You are talking about a strawman god that only knows what we are going to do and then not do anything about it. The Christian god supposedly knows what we will do and then did something(creation) about it.

quote:Originally posted by Fanglekai:



just because God knows the future doesn't mean you don't have free will. he can know everything and not do anything about it. you dont know what you're going to do yet, well he does know, the idea is that he knows you so well he knows everything you will ever do. he did make you after all! just because he knows what you're going to do doesn't mean you have no choice in the matter. it's like he knows the end result, and how you'll get to it.

The point is, if an omniscient being knows that I will choose A, instead of B, then I must choose A. I cannot choose B, since that would prove that he wasn't omniscient in the first place!

His omniscience is in effect forcing me to choose A, so I cannot have free will.

i look at life like a grid. lets say that everybody has a line that shoots out in a straight line until we mess up and then it changes direction a degree. and the worse we do, the more it changes direction. now i dont believe in god, but for the sake of arguement lets say there is one. now god has a specific destiny set out for all of us. and according to the above it should be right in front of us. but when we fuck up, we go a different way than god had planned for us.

me----------------original destiny

me----

\-----------my destiny



tell me if any of this makes sense.

Just because God would know the future doesn't mean it controls your choices, it doesn't mean that it chose for you, it means it knew your answer in advance. It makes everything seem pointless, but we are not God and don't know the motives.

Rust i am familiar with what you're talking about, and I am well aware of what you are saying. However, I don't think you're looking at it from my point of view. You can still pick A or B, thus you do have a choice, however the end result is known. Think about it. You can choose B, but he'd know that you'd choose B. It is very problematic. I see it both ways, with the idea that the prophet by seeing the future locks the people into that mode, and also with it not being a problem.



God intervening however I do find a problem with, hence why i don't agree with that belief, and that's one of the many reasons i'm not a christian. Aristotle's Unmoved Mover God makes more sense in my opinion.

If god is omnipotent, then how can we have free will?

Well the way I look at fate destiny and free will is this(Ill try to explain it as best i can)your whole life in a sense is already planned out because god knows you as a person and the kinds of decisions you will make.And even if he didnt your life would turn out the same way.The decisons you make are your free will but there is no way you can change what happens and you would never make your life any differnt (nless you had knowledge of what you were going to do before hand so you could choose another path)but you cant do this so you follow one path and that is the only path you can ever go on because there is no way of seeing into the future and doing something differnt than what you would have done...

sorry its hard to explain but in a nutshell your fate is there but its defined by who you are and in the end you wouldnt have it any other way because you live through the present and cant change what you are going to do anyway

quote:Originally posted by Fanglekai:

Rust i am familiar with what you're talking about, and I am well aware of what you are saying. However, I don't think you're looking at it from my point of view. You can still pick A or B, thus you do have a choice, however the end result is known. Think about it. You can choose B, but he'd know that you'd choose B. It is very problematic. I see it both ways, with the idea that the prophet by seeing the future locks the people into that mode, and also with it not being a problem.





To say that he already knows what I'm going to do is to refute free will completely. There's nothing else to it. You see, the only thing that makes free will "free" is the possibility of me choosing either choice, in this case, if I could choose B. I can't, it's impossible. Hence it cannot possibly be free will.

For example: In Oedipus Rex, his destiny was to kill his father, and marry his mother. Does him having what seems to be a "choice" in leaving his town to try and escape this, show that he has free will? No. It was determined because the outcome was already known. He was going to kill his father and marry his mother.

'Free will', isn't a theme in Oedipus Rex, on the contrary, Greek deterministic belief is.

quote:Originally posted by mixedbloods:

Just because God would know the future doesn't mean it controls your choices, it doesn't mean that it chose for you, it means it knew your answer in advance. It makes everything seem pointless, but we are not God and don't know the motives.

Read the arguments. It does exactly that.

Can I choose B if god already knows I am going to choose A? No. Then I don't have free will. Period.

I'm pretty sure God gave man free will through that covenant thing, right? (Correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't read the bible for like 5 years). And i'm pretty sure that nowhere in the bible does it state that God can see the future, right?

So that means people can choose to do what they want to do, right?

But that comes into direct contradiction with the free will covenant. Because if God already knows what you are going to do, you don't have the choice to do anything except what God knows you will do. Does that make sense?(I know it's redundant and all this stuff has been said) Hold on, I have a better idea. Pretend this (!!! and ---) is a road you are walking down and the + sign is the path God "knows" you are going to take, and (#) is the path he "knows" you won't take. (If in fact, He knows the future.)

! # !

! # !

! # !

! # !-------------

! + + + + + + + +

! + !-------------

! + !

! + !

! + !

! + !

So in this diagram (Shut up, I know it sucks)

God has known since the day you were born that you would come to this intersection 20 years later and make a right turn. So the question I pose is, could you have gone straight (followed the # signs) if God already knew you were going right? Wouldn't that be proving God wrong to go the opposite direction than the one He predicted? It's in the bible that we have free will, but i'm pretty sure it's not in the bible that God is a psychic. That's why i think God doesn't know the future, at least not about people.

Remember, correct me if i am wrong, because I am basing this on a shaky memory of "The Bible" by God.

If one claims that the Christian god doesn't know the future, he or she has single-handedly dismissed all prophecy in the Bible. Also, if the Christian god claims that Satan will never repent and will be cast into the Christian hell or whatever than does Satan really have a chance of repenting?

Christianty is a mix of pagen,jewish,gothic,and many others. I know someone probley already said this but I was too lazzy to check :^)

quote:Originally posted by succhia:

so they say we have free will right? but they also say that god has a plan for us. so then they say its our choice on whether we choose to follow it or not. but if he is all powerful and shit, he created our plan. so really we have no choice at all.

do you believe in free will or not?

i believe in fate and nothing else. no god or anything. its much easier that way.



where does fate come from? why?

so, succhia...by saying that you dont believe in god, doesnt that mean you shouldnt believe in fate as well? By not believing in a higher power, that would mean there is no one around to determine what happens to you through out your life...god and fate are somewhat connected

I didn't read all the posts so I don't know if this has been posted, but many christians believe that god does not have a plan instead he created us and gave us freewill, and all he does is see every possible choice.

So all the prophecies in the Bible are suspect then since the Christian god doesn't really know what's going to happen?

no, god knows what's going to happen - he gives free will so he doesn't make the choice but he knows what's going to happen anyway. Since god is outside of time there's no question of whether he knows before or after cause that only applies to us.

imagine you're reading a story and even though you can skip ahead and see what happens, when you go back to the storyline you know what happens next even though you can't change what hte author is going to write.

But what if you're the author?

well then you can't skip ahead, obviously!

...his point is that your fictional characters have no free will of their own, they do what you choose they do.

quote:Originally posted by Roisin:

no, god knows what's going to happen - he gives free will so he doesn't make the choice but he knows what's going to happen anyway. Since god is outside of time there's no question of whether he knows before or after cause that only applies to us.

imagine you're reading a story and even though you can skip ahead and see what happens, when you go back to the storyline you know what happens next even though you can't change what hte author is going to write.

Again, he knowing what you're going to do means you cannot choose something different. Not being able to choose something different means I do not have free will.

Also, your does not work. In your analogy, me reading ahead, would make no difference in the story, because the story is and always will be 'fixed'. In other words, the episodes in the story were all determined before hand.

no the episodes in the story aren't decided beforehand they unfold as it goes along but when you read it you're reliving all this so even though the story could go any way, you can know what's going to happen though it's only 'fixed' afterwards. so in a sense you're reading after it happens and has been written down but also before because you relive it with the characters.

ps any writer who chooses exactly what the characters do is only a storyteller, not a true author/artist.

I'm talking about reading, not writing.

When you're reading a story, what happens in that story is fixed. That you don't know what is going to happen (because you haven't read it) does not mean that what is going to happen in the story can suddenly change. It's fixed.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

I'm talking about reading, not writing.

When you're reading a story, what happens in that story is fixed. That you don't know what is going to happen (because you haven't read it) does not mean that what is going to happen in the story can suddenly change. It's fixed.



in a way, to the reader, it is not fixed, as anything can happen in the story (from the readers perspective, up to any given point of the storyline)...if it is fixed, what would be the point of reading it.

wasnt there a scientist that said something to the effect that if you have a sealed box, anything, everything or nothing could be in that box, until it is opened and observed

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



in a way, to the reader, it is not fixed, as anything can happen in the story (from the readers perspective, up to any given point of the storyline)...if it is fixed, what would be the point of reading it.

wasnt there a scientist that said something to the effect that if you have a sealed box, anything, everything or nothing could be in that box, until it is opened and observed

There's a difference between there being an endless amount of possibilities, since nothing is known about the story, and that story being able to change. To claim that it can change would mean that the letters printed on the piece of paper can change!

The story is fixed, it does not change; that is not to mean that there are not a myriad of possible scenarios that story can have because it is unknown.

Obviously the story is not a perfect metaphore.

was the original point about free will of the characters or changeability of the future?

either way, as you read the story, the characters do whatever they want - the rest of the story doesn't have to change because it's not fixed until after it happens. when you read ahead you can only see what will be fixed, not what is already fixed. you're viewing the future but that doesn't mean that the future is fixed only that IT WILL BE fixed. i don't think change is the point.

quote:Originally posted by Roisin:



either way, as you read the story, the characters do whatever they want -

The story was written, hence the characters CAN'T "do whatever they want".

quote:

the rest of the story doesn't have to change because it's not fixed until after it happens.

when you read ahead you can only see what will be fixed, not what is already fixed.



It was already fixed because it was already written. To claim that it is not fixed is to claim that the words can magically change...

quote: you're viewing the future but that doesn't mean that the future is fixed only that IT WILL BE fixed.

The moment you know the future, the furure IS fixed. If it changes, then that means you DIDN'T know the future in the first place. That's not a problem for us, but it is a problem for an omniscient being since that would mean that he isn't omniscient.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 11-07-2004).]

the characters can do whatever the want while the story unfolds. this happens twice - once when it was written and again when it is being read. the characters CAN do whatever they want, from their point of view and from the readers - you can only skip ahead to see what they WILL choose, not what is already chosen for them to choose.

you seem to see the rest of the story as in the past but i see it as in the future because until you read that far, in a sense it hasn't happened and it certainly hasn't happened for the characters

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

The moment you know the future, the furure IS fixed. It cannot be changes since that would then mean you didn't know the future.



True. Except that in a sense the future only becomes fixed after it happens.

in your (I'm assuming you're a reader rather than a characer) time this happens long before you ever read the story when it is written down for the first time. but for the characters it happens repeatedly everytime someone reads the book. you could argue though that after the first time when it is written down it is fixed but the story is exactly the same for the characters whether it is written down or not.

(I think) my original point was that you're outside the timescale of the book. the characters have freewill inasmuch as they choose what is going to happen but you know what they are going to choose because you're outside of their world and timescale and can look ahead. that doesn't mean that you can control it or that they can't choose it.

it's only fixed to YOU.

quote:Originally posted by Roisin:

the characters can do whatever the want while the story unfolds. this happens twice - once when it was written and again when it is being read. the characters CAN do whatever they want, from their point of view and from the readers - you can only skip ahead to see what they WILL choose, not what is already chosen for them to choose.

How. How can they "do whatever they want"? The story is already written, hence their choices have already been chosen for them!

quote:

you seem to see the rest of the story as in the past but i see it as in the future because until you read that far, in a sense it hasn't happened and it certainly hasn't happened for the characters

That's irrelevant. It not happening does not mean it hasn't been chosen before hand. What means it has been chosen before hand is knowledge of what is going to happen... which is known the moment it is written!



quote:

True. Except that in a sense the future only becomes fixed after it happens.

True? Did you even read what I said? I said the opposite! It's fixed after what happens is known!



quote: but for the characters it happens repeatedly everytime someone reads the book. you could argue though that after the first time when it is written down it is fixed but the story is exactly the same for the characters whether it is written down or not.

If the story is the same... your actually helping MY argument! If the story is the same that would be evidence of it not being able to change.

quote:

(I think) my original point was that you're outside the timescale of the book. the characters have freewill inasmuch as they choose what is going to happen but you know what they are going to choose because you're outside of their world and timescale and can look ahead. that doesn't mean that you can control it or that they can't choose it.



Just how the hell do the characters choose what's going to happen? Once again, that's already chosen for them by the author!



[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 11-07-2004).]

Let me try to explain myself more clearly.

the issue is/was: if god knows the future does that mean that we can't change it?

as far as my metaphore goes, we are the characters in the book so you have to look at it from the characters' point of view. yes of course once a story has been written down the printed word does not change but as far as the characters inside the book ar concerned, it's not written down.

in an idea situation, the author does not choose what's going to happen - she just writes it down. of course some writers write out detailed story plans first, but in the best books the author is just as surprised as the readers to see how it ends. she creates the characters but they then take on a life of their own and make their own choices. the author then writes these down as they happen to the characters. afterwards someone else, or the author herself can read the story again and see what the characters do.

"afterwards" only applies to the author or readers though - for the characters every time is the first time and everytime they are free to make their own choices. but because it will be written down you can skip ahead and check. it is only for you that the future is fixed, for the characters it is not.

in real terms we're the characters

i think this might be something like what is meant when people say that god is outside of time.

"The moment you know the future, the furure IS fixed. It cannot be changes since that would then mean you didn't know the future."

True for you.

But you're not god.

quote:Originally posted by Roisin:



as far as my metaphore goes, we are the characters in the book so you have to look at it from the characters' point of view. yes of course once a story has been written down the printed word does not change but as far as the characters inside the book ar concerned, it's not written down.

How the characters feel is irrelvant! That shows neither that it is pre-determined or otherwise!

quote:

in an idea situation, the author does not choose what's going to happen - she just writes it down. of course some writers write out detailed story plans first, but in the best books the author is just as surprised as the readers to see how it ends.

And that just proves how bad an analogy it is.

quote:

she creates the characters but they then take on a life of their own and make their own choices. the author then writes these down as they happen to the characters. afterwards someone else, or the author herself can read the story again and see what the characters do.

"afterwards" only applies to the author or readers though - for the characters every time is the first time and everytime they are free to make their own choices. but because it will be written down you can skip ahead and check. it is only for you that the future is fixed, for the characters it is not.

in real terms we're the characters

i think this might be something like what is meant when people say that god is outside of time.

You're once again arbitrarily deciding the characters somehow choose something. Once again, how the fuck can they choose anything when it is already written down?

You've yet to answer that! How it may seem or feel to the characters is irrelevant because nobody is debating how it might feel.

To use the Oedipus Rex analogy, he escaping his town in an attempt to prove the prophecy wrong, might feel to Oedipus as if he had free will... so what? He didn't, it was already predetermined!

quote:

"The moment you know the future, the furure IS fixed. It cannot be changes since that would then mean you didn't know the future."

True for you.

But you're not god.

No. That's the whole freaking point! If god didn't know what I was going to do, then he cannot be omniscient! If he did know, then I cannot have free will.