I believe in God and Jesus and I try to live by the standards set down in the Bible. My question is about forgiveness. We are told to forgive others numerous times throughout the Bible.

Why didn't God forgive Satan

The first sign of trouble and God kicked him down to hell. Shouldn't he lead by example. Can someone please answer this question for me.

who the fuck is satan?,mate. i studied theology and i can't find him in the bible..

http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

the only evil i see is commited by people ...people like me and you.

Okay, the Devil, Lucifer, the Prince of Darkness. He is in the Holy Bible, not the hackers bible, barbeque bible or the growers bible (although I do believe their is a strain called "devil weed"). I am just curious to know other peoples reaction to the question.

yeah i know who you meant but trust me on this he ain't in the bible!

He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

-Matthew 12:22-32

jackketch, you have me confused now, but that is OK, I get confused easily. Tyrant, thanx for that verse.

lol now you know how i feel when you talk '*nix'.....this is my specialist area :P

but seriously tux, the concept of a supreme nasty being (devil,stan whatever)is not a biblical concept.

christians who know little of the bible can trott out about 7 places in the bible which they can twist to fit the idea of there being a satan but as anyone half competent in biblical studies can tell you there simply isn't a case for it.

however if you go to the non cannonical books ...but of course christians don't (unless it happens to support their arguements !)



[This message has been edited by jackketch (edited 11-02-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

lol now you know how i feel when you talk '*nix'

you have me wrong, I don't know much about Linux at all and I could almost guarantee that you knew more about it than me (I am just passionate about it). I have this damn winmodem so I cant get online with Linux, so I am stuck with Win2K, but that is beside the point, I just wanted to point it out to you. What are the cannonical books? Are they like the gnostics[sp]? I know nothing about them, apart from the other night my missus stole the computer to do some reading about them. The history tells me she was on http://www.gospelthomas.com/

Is that what you are talking about?

yeah some of the NON cannonical are 'gnostic' although wether the Gospel of Thomas is gnostic is moot.

the non cannonical books are now (thanks to the dead sea and nag hammadi finds)manifold.

there were in the the first century or so after christ no end of gospels etc written that didn't get inculded in the NT.

however Non cannonical also refers to the OT jewish scriptures not inculded in the OT.

Back to the original question:

maybe god DID/WILL forgive "Satan"!

Personally, I think it's none of our business and that's why there's nothing about it in the bible but, "he is not willing that any should perish" and why would God love us any more than the angels or whatever.

Not that we even know what "Satan" is.

If traditional Christian trads are true (i.e. the devil is satan who is a fallen angel - a belief derived from a couple of obscure and unclear passages, mostly in isaiah and revelation - who is god's unworthy and therefore already defeated archenemy) then either there is redemption for it or else hell is oblivion and extinguishment. BUT traditional belief holds that spirit beings cannot die (or be extinguished presumably) wouldn't it be the ultimate irony if Jesus' death meant not only the devil's defeat but also his salvation?

Jackketch - Satan IS mentioned in the bible...sketchily.

in the OT, 'supreme nasty being' as you put it, isn't there but in the NT they do seem to have some idea of personified evil - a being who fights jesus, eg at the temptation scenes and in revelation, on behalf of sin.

the bible doesn't tell us anything really though, so most of devil-related tradition comes from confusing biblical passages (twisted, some might say... always read in context!) and more modern liturature.

Maybe it's like in Job and the adversary is our adversary, not God's...

ps Ever heard of the author Maria Corelli? she wrote a book called the sorrows of satan about a hundred years ago - it's tough going but very interesting if you're curious about the idea of the redemption of satan!

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

yeah some of the NON cannonical



Who's Cannon?

I know most "Christians" use the second shortest Bible after the Jews. I believe Catholics have two or three exstra books and other churches have up to 81.

[quote]ackketch - Satan IS mentioned in the bible...sketchily.

in the OT, 'supreme nasty being' as you put it, isn't there but in the NT they do seem to have some idea of personified evil - a being who fights jesus[quote]

its made clear in the NT that the 'being' fighting jesus is a human being. we're not told who but my personal guess is it was the high priest.

I don't know much about the bible... I searched for Satan and come back with 43 results including;

quote:

Matthew 4:10

Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.'[ 4:10 Deut. 6:13] "

Matthew 12:26

If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand?

Matthew 16:23

Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

Mark 1:13

and he was in the desert forty days, being tempted by Satan. He was with the wild animals, and angels attended him.

Mark 3:23

So Jesus called them and spoke to them in parables: "How can Satan drive out Satan?

Mark 3:26

And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come.

Mark 4:15

Some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them.

Mark 8:33

But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. "Get behind me, Satan!" he said. "You do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

Luke 10:18

He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Luke 11:18

If Satan is divided against himself, how can his kingdom stand? I say this because you claim that I drive out demons by Beelzebub.

also in...

Psalms/Job/Chronicles



I searched through most of the different translations and they all had his name... Which book do you read that doesn't mention Satan and how do they describe "Hell"?

exactly - just a few of many examples of satan (whoever/whatever he is) anthropomorphosized

^^^oh dear! bibliology at its worst. try READING the fuckin book.

i'm sorry if the words are too long for you.

try reading the new testament. find an easy translation. look at the words.

the word satan came from the bible and in itself implies a person that you can converse with not a concept

^^nope, kiddo the words aren't too big for me although i'd struggle to read it in the Koine these days (been too long).

Roisin are you by any chance a christian? it would explain your ignorance and inability to understand basic biblical concepts.

sometimes i think the catholic church used to have the right idea and not allow the laity to read the scriptures...

quote:Originally posted by TuxRox:

I believe in God and Jesus and I try to live by the standards set down in the Bible. My question is about forgiveness. We are told to forgive others numerous times throughout the Bible.

Why didn't God forgive Satan

The first sign of trouble and God kicked him down to hell. Shouldn't he lead by example. Can someone please answer this question for me.



The only unforgivable sin is that of disbelief in God.

However, we must be repentent in order to receive His forgiveness.

As a Christian, that repentence is not only seen eternally by salvation through the blood of Jesus Christ, but also in our daily prayers of repentence.

Star Of The Morning (i.e. Lucifer) is not, has not been, and never will be repentent. God knows his heart...

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

^^nope, kiddo the words aren't too big for me although i'd struggle to read it in the Koine these days (been too long).

Roisin are you by any chance a christian? it would explain your ignorance and inability to understand basic biblical concepts.

sometimes i think the catholic church used to have the right idea and not allow the laity to read the scriptures...

Being Christian denotes ignorance of the Bible ? How does THAT work ?

^^^ quote:Star Of The Morning (i.e. Lucifer) is not, has not been, and never will be repentent. God knows his heart...

illustrates my point about christians and ignorance of the bible rather nicely.

Wow. I really want to see jackketch and DigitalSavior debate. It'll be the first Christian on Christian action around here in a long time.

^^^ NOPE cos 1)i haven't done any serious theology since about 1990 (infact only last month i gave away almost all my reference books, koine and hebrew stuff etc)

2)from what i've read on this board so far there are very few people here who know enough about the bible to have a profitable debate.

quote:Originally posted by TuxRox:

I believe in God and Jesus and I try to live by the standards set down in the Bible. My question is about forgiveness. We are told to forgive others numerous times throughout the Bible.

Why didn't God forgive Satan

The first sign of trouble and God kicked him down to hell. Shouldn't he lead by example. Can someone please answer this question for me.



The fact He didnt annihilate satan the instant he started taking the piss proves God's Grace.

Instead He gave satan this tiny speck of a rock we call earth to rule to prove

he can do a better job, and obviously satan's incompetence is the reason why history is full of so much suffering.

(wow the history of the world in a nutshell- i'm amazing)

^^^ quote:)from what i've read on this board so far there are very few people here who know enough about the bible to have a profitable debate.

Forgot to mention, that i got info from the Quran-untouched for a thousand and four-hundred years.

^^^lol that'll teach me to open my mouth without thinking first

Forgiveness is a characteristic of God that is only recognized by humans. According to the Bible, angels were created to recognize only certain aspects of God's character. Forgiveness and mercy are not them. These are things revealed to humanity, along with grace, love and death. Quite the odd combination isn't it.

So, God didn't forgive fallen angels, but He did forgive fallen humans!

quote:Originally posted by TuxRox:

I believe in God and Jesus and I try to live by the standards set down in the Bible. My question is about forgiveness. We are told to forgive others numerous times throughout the Bible.

Why didn't God forgive Satan

The first sign of trouble and God kicked him down to hell. Shouldn't he lead by example. Can someone please answer this question for me.

In the Old Testament, there are 15 verses that reference Satan, with the name Satan in there. In the book of Job, in the first two chapters, there are accounts of Satan at work.

In the New Testament there are 35 references to Satan, where the name Satan is used in the text. Of course, he has other names..Father of lies, the serpent...devil..ect.

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

lol now you know how i feel when you talk '*nix'.....this is my specialist area :P

but seriously tux, the concept of a supreme nasty being (devil,stan whatever)is not a biblical concept.

christians who know little of the bible can trott out about 7 places in the bible which they can twist to fit the idea of there being a satan but as anyone half competent in biblical studies can tell you there simply isn't a case for it.

however if you go to the non cannonical books ...but of course christians don't (unless it happens to support their arguements !)

[This message has been edited by jackketch (edited 11-02-2004).]

quote:in the Old Testament, there are 15 verses that reference Satan, with the name Satan in there. In the book of Job, in the first two chapters, there are accounts of Satan at work.

In the New Testament there are 35 references to Satan, where the name Satan is used in the text. Of course, he has other names..Father of lies, the serpent...devil..ect.

some people just really shouldn't be allowed to have a bible...

/me waits for someone to say something intelligent and worth pondering.



[This message has been edited by jackketch (edited 11-05-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

its made clear in the NT that the 'being' fighting jesus is a human being. we're not told who but my personal guess is it was the high priest.

Book/chapter/verse/Bible version, please.

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

some people just really shouldn't be allowed to have a bible...

/me waits for someone to say something intelligent and worth pondering.

lol instead of saying that so many in this forum are ignorant....enlighten us with your knowledge, oh master of biblical understanding lol

quote:Originally posted by ZEN OF AZRAEL:



The fact He didnt annihilate satan the instant he started taking the piss proves God's Grace.

Instead He gave satan this tiny speck of a rock we call earth to rule to prove

he can do a better job, and obviously satan's incompetence is the reason why history is full of so much suffering.

(wow the history of the world in a nutshell- i'm amazing)

You said you got this from the Koran.

Actually, in a nut-shell, you have said what the Bible says (sorta), also.

quote:lol instead of saying that so many in this forum are ignorant....enlighten us with your knowledge, oh master of biblical understanding lol

yep sometimes i do sound really condescending

actually you're one of the few i thought might make the grade..which is why i suggested you try reading some adult textbooks on the subject.

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

which is why i suggested you try reading some adult textbooks on the subject.

i have. i would just like to understand where YOU are coming from, before i make too many assumptions of your statements.

it wasnt that i thought you were condescending, one assumption i have come to, is that you may be B.S.ing... no insult is meant by this, it is just the way i am percieving your posts.

as to me "making the grade" in "your eyes", i am not in this forum for the purpose of impressing anyone, nor do i think that this forum is a "king of the hill" contest to prove who can argue the best.

I do understand that some, if not most of the members have more formal education. This became exceptionally noticed by me tonight, as i was listening to about 3 hours of mp3 by a Doctor of Theology and Philosophy addressing questions posed to him by students and faculty of Georgetown University. Although i understood much of what was said, many of the works referenced to, i havent read... in short, my head is spinning.

Anyway, its bedtime. May The Triune God bless you. (I said this so that there is no misunderstanding, by anyone, as to which God i am meaning).

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

i have. i would just like to understand where YOU are coming from, before i make too many assumptions of your statements.

it wasnt that i thought you were condescending, one assumption i have come to, is that you may be B.S.ing... no insult is meant by this, it is just the way i am percieving your posts.

as to me "making the grade" in "your eyes", i am not in this forum for the purpose of impressing anyone, nor do i think that this forum is a "king of the hill" contest to prove who can argue the best.

I do understand that some, if not most of the members have more formal education. This became exceptionally noticed by me tonight, as i was listening to about 3 hours of mp3 by a Doctor of Theology and Philosophy addressing questions posed to him by students and faculty of Georgetown University. Although i understood much of what was said, many of the works referenced to, i havent read... in short, my head is spinning.

Anyway, its bedtime. May The Triune God bless you. (I said this so that there is no misunderstanding, by anyone, as to which God i am meaning).

early early morning here http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

anyway thank you for the blessing although as i don't believe in the trinity...

no i'm not bullshitting . i've been on totse a while but have always avoided this forum because i felt that

'put 3 christians in a room and you'll get4 churches out

but recently someone dear to me started posting here and i kind of re-found my love of the bible.

however it pains me to see how it gets arsed raped here by christians who are incapable of reading the words on the page.

and a georgetown theology lecture would make anyone's head spin...mine inculded.