I recently attended a funeral and some questions popped into my head as I sat through the catholic service.

Before I get into my questions, I have to give you some background. I come from an indian reservation, and all the catholics from my reservation (and other rez's around the country) attend a conference every year because they are trying to petition the Vatican to canonize this indian woman named Kateri Takawitha.

Back in the 1600's, a smallpox epidemic hit Kateri's village and she herself contracted the disease. Some catholic missionaries were there to record this. After almost succumbing to the disease, they say through prayer, she overcame the disease. In other words, she was a miracle.

It seems that all through life, catholics look down on themselves because they and God see themselves as sinners. And the funeral I attended, they had dancers called Matachinas which are all catholics, but with a traditional indian twist to it. I guess these are the indians that converted to catholicism, but still retained some of their indian ways and incorporated them into their service.

Anyways at the graveside service, after we lowered my aunt into her grave, the catholics all gathered around the grave and sang a song called "De Colores" (or the colors) and when the song was over, they threw confetti into the grave. A shitload of confetti. My gf sorta explained to me, that the confetti stood for the traditional colors of all indians.(the traditional part they integrated into the service) But at a funeral?

That's when it struck me, that all through a catholic's life they look at themselves as sinners, it's their fault that Jesus got nailed (literally) and they're so bad, but when we were at a funeral it seemed like they were celebrating because their life as a sinner is over, and they can be with god now.

Is this how all catholics feel?

Did I just answer my own question?

Don't flame me if you don't understand what I'm talking about. alot of indians who have converted or were raised in the catholic church integrate their traditional ways in to catholic services, and the fathers they sent are alright with it. (Which I guess would mean the Pope approved it, too.)

I am not catholic myself, but was baptised a Presbyterian, although I rarely attend church. I'm trying to learn our traditional ways, the way my people were before Father Kino and the other missionaries made contact with us. Thanks for any input. Oh, and "fuck you" to anyone posting just to talk shit.

interesting, I'm not even sure what your question is.

But no, not all catholics feel that way. I think you just invented that idea. It's an interesting idea, but most catholic funerals are hardly joyful.

I used to be an alter-server and would get pulled to do funerals sometimes, so no, from experiance, they are not joyful.

It's just you damn happy injuns doing your thing.

Catholics do seem to treat their faith like a burden. I was Catholic (as in church every Friday and Sunday, Catholic school, the whole deal) and i just recently got out of it to be just plain old Christian. I think Catholicism is fucked up. they treat the pope like he's closer to god than everyone else, like he has a direct line to heaven, they act like a church is holier than you're house. God didn't say the church was holier than my house, some old asshole did. if i pray at my house, i'm getting through to god just as much as people in churches. sorry, that was an unrelated tangent. but back to your question. I think Christians, but Catholics in particular are stupid, they act like humans are more likely to do bad than good. it sucks. I didnt eat the fucking apple, some dumb bitch and an asshole cocksucker in a METAPHORICAL STORY did. Why should i be born with original sin? huh? I didn't do shit when i was in my mom. You know? Catholicism is pretty fucked, and thats why i don't follow it anymore.

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

interesting, I'm not even sure what your question is.

But no, not all catholics feel that way. I think you just invented that idea. It's an interesting idea, but most catholic funerals are hardly joyful.

I used to be an alter-server and would get pulled to do funerals sometimes, so no, from experiance, they are not joyful.

It's just you damn happy injuns doing your thing.

I guess the catholic indians put their own spin on it. It's not like everybody was laughing and throwing the confetti, it was sad, and people were crying. My question was Do all catholics mourn their life, that they embrace death as they see it as "meeting their maker"?

I hope it didn't sound like I was asking if other catholics throw confetti or shit like that. the "Matachinas" are adapted from the catholic Yaquis (a indian tribe that lives around the AZ-Mexico border.) This is how they do their funerals. Maybe it's an AZ catholic indian thing.

I would think that the christian promise of eternal paradise would make most believers happy or at least content with death.

Alas, human nature and the never-ending hunger for survival make us fearful of it.

Catholics tend to be a somber crowd when it comes to funerals and death, plus I would say that Catholics are the least educated on their faith of all christian groups.

quote:Originally posted by Shattered_Faith:

Catholics do seem to treat their faith like a burden. I was Catholic (as in church every Friday and Sunday, Catholic school, the whole deal) and i just recently got out of it to be just plain old Christian. I think Catholicism is fucked up. they treat the pope like he's closer to god than everyone else, like he has a direct line to heaven, they act like a church is holier than you're house. God didn't say the church was holier than my house, some old asshole did. if i pray at my house, i'm getting through to god just as much as people in churches. sorry, that was an unrelated tangent. but back to your question. I think Christians, but Catholics in particular are stupid, they act like humans are more likely to do bad than good. it sucks. I didnt eat the fucking apple, some dumb bitch and an asshole cocksucker in a METAPHORICAL STORY did. Why should i be born with original sin? huh? I didn't do shit when i was in my mom. You know? Catholicism is pretty fucked, and thats why i don't follow it anymore.

I guess I feel the same way about catholics and christians in general. For example, me and my gf are planning our wedding, and we decided just to have a Justice of the Peace marry us, rather than haver convert to a Presbyterian (which I don't consider myself)or me convert to catholicism (which I'm not about to do.) When I told my mother this (She's a born again, but not catholic) She seemed upset by our decision. Then I whipped out one of them Daily Breads she always mails me, and showed her a part where it basically said "God is everywhere" and then another part where it literally said "God is love." I didn't do it to be a smart-ass, but just to show her how hypocritical the church (any church) can be.

I like having discussions with my mom, because she thinks I don't know shit about the bible, but I've read the important parts, and have gotten nearly to the end of the old testament.

I like to be prepared when we have our discussions. she also doesn't like me learning our traditional ways, she thinks the only way is the christian way. I asked her "then how were all indian people taken care of for millennia when christianity hadn't arrived yet?" Silence.

Yeah, and what about before Jesus? And what about a baby that dies before it's baptised? ( you know, with his "original sin" intact) or a kid who grows up only knowing Islam then dies before he hears the gospel? some girl in my Video Production class told me they (The islam boy i mean) would go to hell because of whoever didn't teach him christianity. she quoted some bible shit along the lines of "their blood will be on our hands for not spreading the scripture." and i was like "so since you suck ass at spreading christianity, this little innocent kid has to suffer eternally? Man you fuckin' blow."

"It's not what you have faith in, it's that you have faith"

- Chris Rock

as Rufus in Dogma

quote:Originally posted by Shattered_Faith:

"It's not what you have faith in, it's that you have faith"

- Chris Rock

as Rufus in Dogma

That is a cool movie. Very funny, but awfully truthful. George Carlin and the buddy christ are hysterical.

quote:Originally posted by Shattered_Faith:

Catholics do seem to treat their faith like a burden. I was Catholic (as in church every Friday and Sunday, Catholic school, the whole deal) and i just recently got out of it to be just plain old Christian. I think Catholicism is fucked up. they treat the pope like he's closer to god than everyone else, like he has a direct line to heaven, they act like a church is holier than you're house. God didn't say the church was holier than my house, some old asshole did. if i pray at my house, i'm getting through to god just as much as people in churches. sorry, that was an unrelated tangent. but back to your question. I think Christians, but Catholics in particular are stupid, they act like humans are more likely to do bad than good. it sucks. I didnt eat the fucking apple, some dumb bitch and an asshole cocksucker in a METAPHORICAL STORY did. Why should i be born with original sin? huh? I didn't do shit when i was in my mom. You know? Catholicism is pretty fucked, and thats why i don't follow it anymore.

You're right, the Pope is a decrepit pollock in a fancy hat, nothing more.

It's refreshing to see a Christian that knows a metaphor when they see it.

To the original poster:

I think it would be difficult to say that all Catholics have one particular view of life and death. There are a few things that all Catholics are supposed to agree on - although not all of them do, of course. However, beyond those few things there is a lot of room for various perspectives and interpretations.

I enjoyed reading your description of the Catholic/Native American funeral. I'm currently studying syncretistic blends of Catholicism and Native American traditions (and African traditions), but mainly in the Caribbean and South America, not North America.

Thanks for sharing, though. I think that story right there is the perfect example that Catholicism is practiced differently by different people in different places.

quote:Originally posted by Shattered_Faith:

"It's not what you have faith in, it's that you have faith"

- Chris Rock

as Rufus in Dogma

I really liked dogma... although this was one of the things that really shits me about that movie.

Funny that it took disease, slaughter, and slavery for your people to find "the true way". You should really just stick to your traditions and screw what destroyed your culture.

quote:Originally posted by Shattered_Faith:

Catholics do seem to treat their faith like a burden. I was Catholic (as in church every Friday and Sunday, Catholic school, the whole deal) and i just recently got out of it to be just plain old Christian. I think Catholicism is fucked up. they treat the pope like he's closer to god than everyone else, like he has a direct line to heaven, they act like a church is holier than you're house. God didn't say the church was holier than my house, some old asshole did. if i pray at my house, i'm getting through to god just as much as people in churches. sorry, that was an unrelated tangent. but back to your question. I think Christians, but Catholics in particular are stupid, they act like humans are more likely to do bad than good. it sucks. I didnt eat the fucking apple, some dumb bitch and an asshole cocksucker in a METAPHORICAL STORY did. Why should i be born with original sin? huh? I didn't do shit when i was in my mom. You know? Catholicism is pretty fucked, and thats why i don't follow it anymore.



which is why your going to hell but chin up anyhow..

quote:Originally posted by krime-one*:

attend a conference every year because they are trying to petition the Vatican to canonize this indian woman named Kateri Takawitha.

Back in the 1600's, a smallpox epidemic hit Kateri's village and she herself contracted the disease. Some catholic missionaries were there to record this. After almost succumbing to the disease, they say through prayer, she overcame the disease. In other words, she was a miracle.



Kateri is already canonized you idiot.

quote:Originally posted by Mr. Witoslawski:

Kateri is already canonized you idiot.

Could you provide us with some evidence?

From what I know, she was beatifed not canonized.

She was, just not widely recognized. I went to a church in upstate NY that was built in honor of her. I'm not sure if that's the area where it occured but the church was there.

Maybe she wasn't I don't remember. Don't forget your traditions, the Catholics had raised the sword against the Slavs, Germanics, and forcefully converted them before they crossed the seas.

[This message has been edited by Keltoiberserker (edited 11-08-2004).]

Yah I only read the thread starters post and not al the others so this may have already been said. I am a catholic and death is sort of like a joy. A funeral is supposed to celebrate the life of the person who has died not mourn his death. For a Catholic when you die it is a sweet and sour type of thing. People are sad that you are dead but we are also happy that you are going to be with God soon and in heaven. So in a sense death is a type of joy. As well one of the 7 sacraments is death or your last rites before you die. If you believe in a God and a heaven death should not be a bad thing because you are going to heaven because of jesus.

quote:Originally posted by Keltoiberserker:

She was, just not widely recognized. I went to a church in upstate NY that was built in honor of her.



"She was" what? Beatified or canonized? A Catholic Church can be built in honor of someone that's not canonized.

She was beatified in 1980. Unless it's happened very recently, she has not been canonized yet.



EDIT:

Example: this is a Catholic website (from 2004) praying for her canonization.

http://www.catholicculture.org/lit/Prayers/view.cfm?id=1080



[This message has been edited by Lolita (edited 11-08-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Mr. Witoslawski:

Kateri is already canonized you idiot.

Gimme some fuckin' info, then! Don't just post some shitty-ass remark and leave it at that. Correct me properly.

If you read the topic starter, I stated that I'm not catholic,and gave all of the info I had. As I read the other posts after your moronic post, it seems you may be in the wrong. It's alright, we all don't have the proper info, get informed next time before you thrown the idiot word around. Idiot.

quote:Originally posted by AngrySquirrel:

Funny that it took disease, slaughter, and slavery for your people to find "the true way". You should really just stick to your traditions and screw what destroyed your culture.

Yeah, we are building our traditional ways up again. Alot of the brainwashing went on in the boarding schools, and we were outlawed from performing our ceremonies. Alot of the shit that went into kids heads around the turn of 19th century was that if they stayed "indian", they wouldg go to hell. Some people still scoff at the ones trying to incorporate traditional ways. That is why I stated I'm trying to learn my traditional ways, and not have some christian twist to it, but how it is originally done. Before the missionairies came.