I've been thinking about the Christian God and the law of conservation of energy (energy cannot be created or destroyed; it may be changed from one form to another). With that said, what would you guys say about the state of God before, during, and after "his creation" of the universe?

Um, he was conserved?

God flagrantly violates the conservation of energy laws.

Physics (mostly the law of conservation), in my opinion, proves that there is a God, if not then at least that there is an afterlife. The law of conservation states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed. And what is a soul? energy. So when you die, the energy just goes somewhere else, or it is redistributed into a new organism or something else. and proof that there is a soul? Love, hate, emotions, feelings conscious thought, reasoning, take your pick. i for one refuse to believe that this life is it, that there's nothing else. Fuck that idea. if i die and there is just nothingness, i'm gonna be so pissed off. seriously. i will be pissed.

quote:Originally posted by Shattered_Faith:

if i die and there is just nothingness, i'm gonna be so pissed off. seriously. i will be pissed.

Teehee.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

Um, he was conserved?

lol... the republicans will be happy to hear that. You just see George W getting up and saying "Physics has proved that God is a conservative"

^^^ soooo truee.....

quote:Originally posted by Shattered_Faith:

Physics (mostly the law of conservation), in my opinion, proves that there is a God, if not then at least that there is an afterlife. The law of conservation states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed. And what is a soul? energy. So when you die, the energy just goes somewhere else, or it is redistributed into a new organism or something else. and proof that there is a soul? Love, hate, emotions, feelings conscious thought, reasoning, take your pick. i for one refuse to believe that this life is it, that there's nothing else. Fuck that idea. if i die and there is just nothingness, i'm gonna be so pissed off. seriously. i will be pissed.

No. First of all, God creating the world is a horrific violation of conservation of energy. Second, the energy in your brain, on a physical level, is electrical impulses induced by the breakdown of food in your system. Without that process continueing, the energy in your brain would stop. It doesn't need to go anywhere. The remainder would be gone from body heat, or friction, or being used up. And from a purely scientific standpoint, there is absolutely no empirical evidence for the existance of a soul, and if one did exist, it would almost certainly not be energy as we understand it, to help preserve conservation.

SurahAhriman: You seriously would rather have it that people don't have souls and that everything you've ever felt is nothing more than a chemical reaction in your brain? Thats an awfully shitty way of looking at life man. you should just kill yourself now if there's nothing after life and every emotion you've ever felt is a lie.And I'm not saying God created anything, all i'm saying is that there is a God, but all i think he is is some undiscovered force that caused the first water molecules to start dividing or whatever into the first life. God, to me, isn't some old man in the clouds with a beard and a robe that has magical powers, just a force not unlike gravity that we just haven't figured out yet.



[This message has been edited by Shattered_Faith (edited 11-12-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by SurahAhriman:

No. First of all, God creating the world is a horrific violation of conservation of energy.

But wouldn't the law become invalidated outside of physics (-the physical universe.)

And has anybody considered the effects of Quantum Foam?

This quantum foam is made of particles and micro-black holes popping in and out of existence, apparently in contravention of the second law of thermodynamics, they appear out of nothing with energy and then disappear again just as quickly.

The only thing that prevents these virtual particles from coming into permanent existence is a lack of energy. But it is possible to artificially supply energy to the particles therefore promoting them into reality. This could be done in a lab by creating very strong electric fields, but these fields are very difficult to create. On the other hand, intense gravitational fields could also do the job.

http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2003/dec/HQ_03413_einstein.html

The uncertainty principle, derived from quantum mechanics, implies that at the subatomic level virtual particles, also called quantum fluctuations, pop in and out of existence. Many scientists say space-time itself is made up of quantum fluctuations which, when viewed up close, resemble a froth or "quantum foam."

I don't think I explained myself suffeciently. If we do have a thing such as souls, it would require something beyond what we currently know. I doubt something as intangible as a soul could be explained in terms of energy. And no, I don't like the notion that everything I've ever felt is the result of an electrical impulse. I would hope that there is something to consciousness beyond what we currently know in terms of biophysics, but I'm a realist. My only real opposition to what you said was the assumption that such things can be explained with contemporary information.

Crusader- I understand quantum foam, but Big Bang theory, and most beginning theories based in scientific fact have some starting energy. This is coupled with the spontaneous creation of particle-antiparticle pairs to create the world today. Normally this would violate energy conservation, except quantum effects allow one particle to spontaneously disappear without anihilating the other. Quantum mechanics and the uncertainty principle allow conservation of energy to be violated, on excessively small quantities.

About God violating the rules of conservation, who's to say that God didn't just pull the energy from elsewhere in the universe and use it to create the earth.

I think that the soul is simply electricity running through the brain and nervous system. I believe in a soul but I believe it can be explained rationally.

quote:Originally posted by Shattered_Faith:

Thats an awfully shitty way of looking at life man. you should just kill yourself now if there's nothing after life and every emotion you've ever felt is a lie.

That makes sense,

Killing yourself becuase there is no afterlife therefore making it imposible to enjoy this one.

quote:Originally posted by NurotiK_SykotiK:

I've been thinking about the Christian God and the law of conservation of energy (energy cannot be created or destroyed; it may be changed from one form to another). With that said, what would you guys say about the state of God before, during, and after "his creation" of the universe?

This is why people should not be told that they are learning science, classical mechanics works only in the context of everyday life. In other words conservation of energy is a bunch of bollocks, energy can be borrowed from the vacuum energy as long as it is returned in a given period of time.

quote:You seriously would rather have it that people don't have souls and that everything you've ever felt is nothing more than a chemical reaction in your brain? Thats an awfully shitty way of looking at life man.

what is everything we've ever felt then? if its not just chemical reactions and electrical pulses in our brains?

quote:Originally posted by megalomaniac:

what is everything we've ever felt then? if its not just chemical reactions and electrical pulses in our brains?

then the next questions are "why?" "where did it come from?"... these questions have been debated by great thinkers for along time, still are debated by thinkers greater than we, and will continue to be debated until the end times.

im not asking the next question.

before asking the next question, you should have answered the first one

if we have proof that the electrical impulses and chemicals in our brains are responsible for emotions and thought processes, and you say that they aren't i would like to know what you think it is

thats all

quote:Originally posted by Haddock:

About God violating the rules of conservation, who's to say that God didn't just pull the energy from elsewhere in the universe and use it to create the earth.

I think that the soul is simply electricity running through the brain and nervous system. I believe in a soul but I believe it can be explained rationally.

In the beginning there was nothing.

But obviously we cannot understand God's being, but in believing that he exists we can't prove that there was no energy before the earth, God himself has to be a very great being, and because he must be on a completely different plain of being than we who is to say that he didn't use a bit of his own energy to create the earth?

quote:Originally posted by SurahAhriman:

In the beginning there was nothing.

Nothing is still filled with virtual particles which amount to something, they even exert a type of pressure on everything in a complete vacuum.

So to put it simply God or probability, which ever you prefer, could have created the universe without violating any laws of physics.

Further reading from our friends at nasa (http://rst.gsfc.nasa.gov/Sect20/A10.html)

Why does there have to be anything more than this life? Isn't this enough for you? Or are you ungrateful for this existence , because you can't possibly understand it, so you have to make up some little fantasy land where you can exist on your own terms?

If there is more than this life, I think a creator would be pissed you fucked around and complained about what he made. Live, enjoy it, if there's anymore to this it's impossible to know, therefore live accordingly.

There is no guarantee that humans will ever understand the univerise, perhaps we just aren't as intelligent as we make ourselves out to be http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)