i also hear he was born in 33AD...now im just confused

help me out here

doublethink, my friend, doublethink. It would have been too much of a hastle to change all the calenders and time accordingly, so just change what we are overwhelmingly inclined to believe. I also hear that the christmas holiday was placed in december to sweep in on other "holy"days receiving attention around this time of year.

Not that any of that really matters.

Besides going to church pretty much evry Western Christmas tradition is based on earlyer Pagan ones. Even amoung Christian denomination there is alot of debate on the proper date of Christmas.

I heard somewhere that Dec. 25 used to be a big pagan holiday, so the church moved the celebration of the birth of christ(I thought he was born in April) to dec. 25 because that was already a big pagan holiday, and it would be easier for the pagans to convert to christianity if less changed during the conversion(i.e. holidays).

Yes, I believe that the 25th is the winter solstice, or the shortest day of the year. Jesus was born in another month but it became much easier for the church to force people into xianity when they could still keep a few of their old beliefs. Ever notice that in old paintings in chruches where people have halos, the halos sort of look like the sun disk?

The nazarene with his "halo" thingy: http://www.pitt.edu/AFShome/s/o/sorc/public/html/ocfellow/icons/jcsinai.jpg

and then there's Isis with the sun disk: http://www.pantheon.org/areas/gallery/mythology/africa/egyptian/isis.jpg



[This message has been edited by chaoszero (edited 11-18-2004).]

Actually, the reason behind Jesus having been born in September can be simply explained. At the time that Jesus was born, December would have been about the time that September is now, because we didnt have July or August at that point. So December would have been the 10th month of the year, which is close to September being the 9th month now.

The date 33AD is probably because Jesus was made up by the church as an excuse as to how the religion was created. The actual person named Jesus Christ was probably born in 33 AD, but the Jesus named in the bible was fictional in my opinion.

quote:Originally posted by Opium Wolf:

At the time that Jesus was born, December would have been about the time that September is now, because we didnt have July or August at that point. So December would have been the 10th month of the year, which is close to September being the 9th month now.

You are half right; there did used to be 10 months in the Roman calendar, with a monthless gap at the end. But July and August were not added, they were only renamed (after the respective Roman leaders). It was January and February that were added.

quote:Originally posted by Opium Wolf:

Actually, the reason behind Jesus having been born in September can be simply explained. At the time that Jesus was born, December would have been about the time that September is now, because we didnt have July or August at that point. So December would have been the 10th month of the year, which is close to September being the 9th month now.

The date 33AD is probably because Jesus was made up by the church as an excuse as to how the religion was created. The actual person named Jesus Christ was probably born in 33 AD, but the Jesus named in the bible was fictional in my opinion.

There was no one named "Jesus Christ".

His name would have been something along the lines of Yeshua Ben Joseph.

I believe the bible is talking about the real Yeshua, however I believe there are many incorrect "Historical Truths". But I believe that the "Faith Truths" in it are abundant and 100% divine.

I believe scholars think Jesus died around 31 AD.

Since there is so little known about the historical Jesus, I doubt we will ever really know the date. But I don't believe such facts are important in the larger scheme of things.

quote:Originally posted by thumper:

i also hear he was born in 33AD...now im just confused help me out here

The biblical account of Jesus' birth gives no date nor the month. However, it was more likely to have occurred in spring than in winter. The Gospel of Luke tells us that shepherds were "abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flocks by night". Shepherds guarded their flocks day and night only at lambing time, in the spring; in winter, the animals were kept in corrals, unwatched.

In the early 4th century, the church fathers chose Dec 25 to use the mithraism holiday "Natalis Solis Invicti"--"birthday of the invincible sun god" (mithras). The purpose was use something that pagans knew..to bridge a gap...and to then, overshadow it.

Sean wrote, "There was no one named "Jesus Christ". His name would have been something along the lines of Yeshua Ben Joseph."

The part about this that is wrong, is that the word "Christ" is a title. <<Christus<<Christos= anointed .. meaning "Messiah", from translation of Hebrew "mashiah" anointed

Scholars think that Jesus birth was somewhere around 7 - 4 B.C.

During that time in history, the birth date was generally concidered to be somewhat unimportant. The important date of a person's life, was his "death date".

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

There was no one named "Jesus Christ".

His name would have been something along the lines of Yeshua Ben Joseph.

I could be wrong about this, but how many times do you say Yeshua being refered to a "Jesus Christ" (as in the name and the title together) in the canonical gospels?

He was born in 6BC apparently, becuase that's the closest date to 1AD (1BC?) that had a census that year. He was born in September, I think. He lived to be 33. I've never heard this thing about the name, but it does seem to make a lot more sense.

Stoyve

quote:Originally posted by thumper:

i also hear he was born in 33AD...now im just confused

help me out here

Yah its true I think something to do with the calendar or something. I didnt know they knew what month.Anyway it really doesnt matter at all now does it.

quote:Originally posted by inquisitor_11:

I could be wrong about this, but how many times do you say Yeshua being refered to a "Jesus Christ" (as in the name and the title together) in the canonical gospels?

i'm sure you know that Christ is just a title. to actually get a feel for it we'd have to read the greek, which i don't think many on this forum can do (or any). as to the #, i can't answer that. i know he was referred to as the Christ or Jesus the Christ a lot. but then again, the gospels were faith accounts written a long time after the fact, they weren't meant to be historical.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by thumper:

[B]i also hear he was born in 33AD

THats stupid because B.C. means before christ was born and AD otherwise known as A.C. means after he was born. So he was born on 0 A.D.

quote:Originally posted by chaoszero:

Ever notice that in old paintings in chruches where people have halos, the halos sort of look like the sun disk?

The nazarene with his "halo" thingy: http://www.pitt.edu/AFShome/s/o/sorc/public/html/ocfellow/icons/jcsinai.jpg

and then there's Isis with the sun disk: http://www.pantheon.org/areas/gallery/mythology/africa/egyptian/isis.jpg



[This message has been edited by chaoszero (edited 11-18-2004).]

not really....

quote:Since there is so little known about the historical Jesus

unless there have been discoveries that i'm not aware of (and there may well have been) then there is not a shred of what a serious historian would consider primary evidence and sarce little secondary either.

don't misunderstand me, i truly believe he existed and was the messiah but evidence i've seen none.

Well.. its evidence of a sort... unfortuentely for our Schools of Higher Criticism, its more anecdoetal than anything else. Which is fairly similar to alot of what we have about ppl circa that era.

quote:Which is fairly similar to alot of what we have about ppl circa that era.

fair point.

IF i remember rightly one of the few NT characters we evidence for is Pilate (and until recently that consisted of one plaque).

quote:Originally posted by chaoszero:

Yes, I believe that the 25th is the winter solstice, or the shortest day of the year. Jesus was born in another month but it became much easier for the church to force people into xianity when they could still keep a few of their old beliefs. Ever notice that in old paintings in chruches where people have halos, the halos sort of look like the sun disk?

The nazarene with his "halo" thingy: http://www.pitt.edu/AFShome/s/o/sorc/public/html/ocfellow/icons/jcsinai.jpg

and then there's Isis with the sun disk: http://www.pantheon.org/areas/gallery/mythology/africa/egyptian/isis.jpg



[This message has been edited by chaoszero (edited 11-18-2004).]



Hey, the images of Buddha have that too. Some say that Jesus went to the Far East during his 'Lost Years'.

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

IF i remember rightly one of the few NT characters we evidence for is Pilate (and until recently that consisted of one plaque).

Yeah I think there is now a bit more documentary evidence for Pontius- apparently he was a real arsehole. Alot of the other players are reasonably well documented- all the Herods, Agripa, Festus, the Jewish priests etc.

Edit: I'm pretty sure that in Luke's writing especially, that the reigns of the various procurators and local tinpot despots are used to place events within a timeframe e.g . "While so and so was king..."

[This message has been edited by inquisitor_11 (edited 11-24-2004).]

quote:Edit: I'm pretty sure that in Luke's writing especially, that the reigns of the various procurators and local tinpot despots are used to place events within a timeframe e.g . "While so and so was king..."

unfortunately that exactly where the problems start. none of it ties up.

Some of it does- I (at this stage) know of at least one that is dodgey.

*sigh* the things you come to realise.... thanks to bloody McDowell (et al) and his bodgey arse apologetics I now have constantly re-evaluate almost every stance I took on these issues. Which aside from being a major pain in the arse, certainly doesn't inspire confidence in christian writers and psudeo-scholars

excuse me while i vent some pent up frustration-

To all those christian-ish writers of laymen apologetics

NOT FUCKING HAPPY JAN!

Sort your shit out and stop trying to deceive us with the pretense of truth- I'd much rather be an atheist based on truth than a theist based on half-truths, lies and dodgey scholarship.

^^^yeah i know those feelings only to well.

having been brought up to believe the usual pseudo mithrain mish mash that passes as 'mainstream' christianity' it came as a huge shock to discover that nearly everything i had been taught to believe was infact not based on the bible or even worthy tradition.

what shocked me even more was that the facts of the matter were usually well known to scholars but hadn't filtered down to the laity.

Remember the scandal a few years ago when the then Bishop of Durham said that the 'xmas story' wasn't based on fact?

the backlash from so called christians was both frightening and hateful.

and yet scholars -even christian scholars admit that the 'xmas story' is by a large just that-a story.

if you want serious but christian scholarship then i can honestly recommend no better book than "Redating the NT" by J.Robinson (who was Bishop of Southwark and one of the finest and unbiased scholars of the last 50 years).

http://www.presence.tv/cms/books227.shtml

[This message has been edited by jackketch (edited 11-24-2004).]

i heard somewhere that jesus was a pisces, hence the fish bumper stickers. so, that's a month later than dec.

also, what is the literal translation of "Yeshua?" are we sure that that isn't a title as well?

quote:Originally posted by drkillpatient:

i heard somewhere that jesus was a pisces, hence the fish bumper stickers. so, that's a month later than dec.

also, what is the literal translation of "Yeshua?" are we sure that that isn't a title as well?

This was posted in a different thread:

I think that it goes something like this:

Jesus < (Latin) Iesus < (Greek) Iesous

< (Hebrew) Yeshua < (a variation of) Yehoshua.. which means something like "God is help"

And i think the Middle or Old English used "Jesu"