I'm Mormon HAHA beat that!! I'm a recent convert (BAPTISM ON THE 11TH OF DECEMBER!!), and although I'm not a "good" mormon yet, I'm trying really hard.

I do believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the one true church of god, although other churches do have splinters of the truth, and any church is better than no church.

I'm open to criticism about this, and I will explain anything I can.

my only problem with the LDS is they aren't the true mormon faith.

they are to mormonism (yes i know that a stupid way of saying it) what catholics are to christianity.

after brigham young it all went bad.



however they remain in my experience the most christian of all the christians -as a rule there are always exceptions.

[This message has been edited by jackketch (edited 11-24-2004).]

The prophets since BY have kept the church modern, and have kept it close to god.

I would like to hear your objections to the modern LDS church.

I noticed you never responded to my hard proof that Joseph Smith is quite simply is a false prophet.

How do you explain the link i posted that shows that his "seer" abilities are a total fraud?

To be honest, everything you posted seems very clear that you're doing this whole conversion to please your girlfriend. What you should've been doing is showing your girlfriend, her family, and her congregation the truth about Joseph Smith.

In case you missed it this link (http://www.carm.org/lds/ldspapyri.htm) is irrefutable proof that Joseph Smith is a fraud. And his book of mormon was "translated" directly out of his ass into a golden toilet.

theBishop

No, I went to church and saw missionaries to please my girlfriend. I read every link I was given, and at the same time I read the book of mormon. I prayed about the book of mormon, and whether or not you believe this I recieved a testimony, as millions have, that the book of mormon is the truth. And if the book of mormon is the truth, Joseph Smith must be a prophet.

You are welcome to call me diluded, and etc, however I want you to take into consideration that is is most probable that neither my girlfriend, nor her family, nor anyone from my ward will ever read this thread, and if they do they will never know it is I posting this.

I write my responses from my heart, I speak from faith. I have conversed with missionaries, I have read the fruits of Joseph Smith. I am and will forever be a mormon. Whether or not my girlfriend and I break up, or she dies, I will stay true to my faith.

quote:Originally posted by HomerJay603:

The prophets since BY have kept the church modern, and have kept it close to god.

I would like to hear your objections to the modern LDS church.

yep that's the problem i have with the utah mafia right there. when does 'modernising' just mean selling out on god's commandments?

don't get me wrong ..i almost got baptised myself and i think its great you're going to join the lds (sure wish my teenage kids would rediscover the faith of their youth!)

but once you've got really secure in your faith in a few years time then start looking into the history of your faith.

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

yep that's the problem i have with the utah mafia right there. when does 'modernising' just mean selling out on god's commandments?

don't get me wrong ..i almost got baptised myself and i think its great you're going to join the lds (sure wish my teenage kids would rediscover the faith of their youth!)

but once you've got really secure in your faith in a few years time then start looking into the history of your faith.



"Selling out on god's commandments?" please elaborate.

I don't live in Utah, so my church (or rather the people therein) is a little more tame than the one in Utah. (ex: people there drink Mountain Dew, just not coffee or tea)

So, I'm a little fuzzy on this here, are you an original mormon? Just a christian? Something in between?

Do you believe in the book of mormon?

Where are you at here?

You don't have to tell me if you don't want to.

no i'm not a mormon . the wife became one but has since left ( http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif) ) i did the whole prebaptism thing but choose not to get baptised although i recognised that the book of mormon is the word of god. simply because my study of the history of church led me to believe that the LDS has betrayed too many of the original commandments.

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

no i'm not a mormon . the wife became one but has since left ( http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif) ) i did the whole prebaptism thing but choose not to get baptised although i recognised that the book of mormon is the word of god. simply because my study of the history of church led me to believe that the LDS has betrayed too many of the original commandments.



Like which ones?

I'm not going to believe any word you say as testifying to the current or past prophets illegitimacy, but I am curious as to what you believe is wrong about the current church?

lol i'm not qualified to say which prophets were real prophets or not...they were all much better men than i will ever be.

and no there's no need for examples. you'll discover them bit by bit as you study the 'pearl' etc.

nor do i want to give the impression that i think you shouldn't get baptised. i think you should and i'm glad for you.

So you prayed. That's it?

I believed the book of mormon to be true and JS to be the prophet of God's true church and all that too. But guess what. I was wrong.

If Joseph Smith wasn't a Seer, he could NOT translate the golden plates (which no one has ever seen btw).

JS took the papayri, and "translated" it. That translation became part of Mormon scripture (Pearl of Great Price). But now we can translate it without supernatural powers and guess what. JS was wrong. Completely wrong.

And it wasn't like he said "i can't read this" or something. He was sure he translated it correctly. How can you possibly believe that he translated the golden plates (which no one has ever seen btw) if he translated something else dead wrong.

It's part of your scripture for God sakes.

There's a lie in Mormon scripture.

How can you possibly account for that?!?

theBishop

quote:which no one has ever seen

doesn't every copy of the book of mormon start with signed affadavits of the witnesses?

yes i know some of them are later supposed to have recanted but actual evidence that they did is where? cos i never found it...

quote:if he translated something else dead wrong.

well the fact that he was a notorious liar, fraud,adulterer and probably insane might explain the discrepancy?

just because god gave him the power of translation once...

[This message has been edited by jackketch (edited 11-24-2004).]

Regardless. How do you believe in a book translated by a man who's translation abilities are nonexistant?

^^ see edit above bishop http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Not good enough.

Because the faith also believes in the christian bible "as long as its translated correctly". So now its getting messy because he has the ability twice, and then the third time he blows it?

Plus. I've read the book of mormon and it doesn't sound to me like multiple authors. How many damn people say "and it came to pass" all the time? Its one voice throughout even though its supposedly the history of generations of people in America (where's the physical proof of that btw).

quote:"and it came to pass"

lol yes i think it was mark twain who remarked that if one took out all 'the came to pass' that it'd be the size of a brochure.

however valid your points are (and you know i agree with a lot of what you're saying) its exactly those things that make the whole story believable.

quote:Originally posted by HomerJay603:

I'm Mormon HAHA beat that!! I'm a recent convert (BAPTISM ON THE 11TH OF DECEMBER!!), and although I'm not a "good" mormon yet, I'm trying really hard.

I do believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the one true church of god, although other churches do have splinters of the truth, and any church is better than no church.

I'm open to criticism about this, and I will explain anything I can.

You think you can ever be a "good" Mormon ?

I think a certain level of maturity ought to be reached before conversion from the outside (not being born into the church).

I want to point out a scripture to you:

Isaiah 64:6 - "All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away."

Do you have any idea what that means ?

Nothing you can do will ever earn the Lord's favor. The only way for you to become "good" enough, or clean in the eyes of God, is to be washed by the blood of the Lamb, Jesus Christ. That means all you have to do is accept Him as your Savior, and you're going to Heaven.

The only thing that is important to God after that is living your life for Him.

Forget the rituals, and the "goals". Forget your servitude to man, and concentrate on your servitude to God.

All you are doing at this point is living for your flesh (what you can gain), when you should be living for the Spirit (what you can gain in God).

It's great that you have such conviction, but it would be nice if it had been better thought out.

God bless.

quote:Originally posted by HomerJay603:

No, I went to church and saw missionaries to please my girlfriend. I read every link I was given, and at the same time I read the book of mormon. I prayed about the book of mormon, and whether or not you believe this I recieved a testimony, as millions have, that the book of mormon is the truth. And if the book of mormon is the truth, Joseph Smith must be a prophet.

You are welcome to call me diluded, and etc, however I want you to take into consideration that is is most probable that neither my girlfriend, nor her family, nor anyone from my ward will ever read this thread, and if they do they will never know it is I posting this.

I write my responses from my heart, I speak from faith. I have conversed with missionaries, I have read the fruits of Joseph Smith. I am and will forever be a mormon. Whether or not my girlfriend and I break up, or she dies, I will stay true to my faith.

I am sorry, but you can't just "read" the Book of Mormon, any more than you can just "read" the Bible.

Both must be studied with objectivity, and academic prejudice.

It is obvious you have done neither, since it would take YEARS to do so.

And even then, it should be done more than once for any kind of certainty to be reached.

I am sorry, friend, but you are a victim of brainwashing. (and, forgive me for venturing to say this, but I assume poontang was a factor in your final decision)

It is wonderful that you are so committed, but you obviously have not listened to anything theBishop or I have said.

It is impossible that you could have read the evidence presented, and still believe Joseph Smith was a man worthy of being considered the "mouthpiece" of God.

You have yet to present any refutation to what Bishop and I have posted, either.

Either play the game by the rules (you must logically support your point of view), or don't play at all.

You don't seem to know your religion at all.

EDIT: Misspelled "poontang". http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 11-24-2004).]

quote:still believe Joseph Smith was a man worthy of being considered the "mouthpiece" of God.

if you had read the bible objectively you would know that infact JS was typical of god's mouth pieces...i'll mention abraham,noah,king david,saul just as a few examples...

*smiles*

Go ahead and give some evidence that shows parallels between JS and the men of God you mentioned.

(this ought to be good)

I would just like to interject that Digital_Savior using the word "poontang" seriously, in a sentence, made my day.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

*smiles*

Go ahead and give some evidence that shows parallels between JS and the men of God you mentioned.

(this ought to be good)

well if you can't find evidence for lets say david being a pathological liar, adulterer,murderer and a bad father then you'll have to tell me which bible you use...

*lmao* @ Surah

I'm still human, doll.

*winks*

Jack - you are absolutely right, if you are trying to prove that's God's people are sinners.

If that was your point, I'd have no quarrel with you.

I don't have a problem with JS being a sinner...we all are, and if we weren't Christianity wouldn't exist (there'd be no need for it).

BUT, you seem to be suggesting that JS was the mouthpiece of God, when there is no scripture supporting that.

Not to mention the fact that he completely changed the word of God to suit his own selfish fantasies.

He basically said God was a moron, that He wasn't always God, and that we can share His titleship of "deity" if we only live up to certain expectations.

If those expectations were made by God Almighty, then how can we ever be like Him, as sinners ?

JS's writings, and the teachings of the Bible completely contradict.

So, please...explain to me how JS could possibly hold such a title.

quote: he completely changed the word of God to suit his own selfish fantasies.

which of us is innocent of that charge? and especially the great men of faith...

Hmmm...God is adamant about monogamy, yet JS was an avid polygamist.

Care to manipulate that one away ?

What about God's statement that He is "I Am", and JS's opinion that God wasn't always God...that He "achieved" His Godly status ?

(and yes, you are correct, but that still doesn't prove that JS was the mouthpiece of God)

quote:God is adamant about monogamy

huh? where?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:



BUT, you seem to be suggesting that JS was the mouthpiece of God, when there is no scripture supporting that.

Well I just need to interject here; when all the "real" biblical prophets were prophets, there was no scripture supporting them. Isaiah wasn't alluded to in earlier scripture, so he is just as valid (or invalid) as Joseph Smith.

I'm not going to get involved in this argument, because I hate the Mormons for practical/personal reasons. However I will say that they're Christians, because they strive to be like Christ. They might have bastardized it a little, but every sect of Christianity does that, whether you like it or not.

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

huh? where?

All people today can trace thier acestry through mitochondrial DNA back to one of seven women. Mitochondrial DNA is only passed on from the mother and does not change much. If you believe the Bible you know there were only four men on the ark. So is the story wrong or were Noahs son's polygamists?

You tell me that one needs to study the book of mormon objectively for years before one can truly become mormon, but I ask you, how many christians have studied the bible objectively?

You tell me poontang is a factor in my decision, but you forget my girlfriend is a mormon, as I shall soon be. So we are both part of a religion which is vehemently against sex before marriage. A law we follow. She has stated over and over and over that it does not matter at all if I chose to be mormon or not, she will love me either way.

Now I need you to tell me why I would be punnished in the afterlife for being mormon. Mormons believe in christ, mormons are good people, mormons repent for sin, mormons do everything required for the attonement of christ. So if I'm wrong, what do I lose? I am happy being mormon, I've never been happier than I am now, and I attribute a great deal of that to my decision to convert. I truly believe in this church more than I have ever believed in anything else in my life. If I'm wrong, I'll go to my grave being wrong and god and I'll have a good laugh about it.

quote:All people today can trace thier acestry through mitochondrial DNA back to one of seven women.

now that is interesting...linky please?

http://www.sciencebooknet.com/The_Seven_Daughters_of_Eve_0393323145.html

Thats a review of the book, there was also a special on the Canadian Discovery Chanel an while back about it.

^^thanx

HAHAHAHAHAHA I love it when people try to use "science" to prove the ark story.Anyhow, the book of Mormon doesn't require careful study to realize what a crock of shit it is, it is gut-laugh-inducing in its pathetic attempt to sound ancient. And thus it came to pass that the Illinois militia wasn't too exited about defending him from the mob of people outside the prison...

I am not trying to prove the ark story, I am trying to show how God would have to let morals go out the window for it to be true.

Ok Ladies and gents the expert has arrived.

Conclusion: Mormonism is not true.

There is no point in explaining why it is false to anybody who is in it and there are a million reasons why it is not accurate.

If you believe it that is honestly great but you are a sucker.

I have been in a mormon family for 20 years still live at home and have read the book of mormon about 6 times (forced to with family) done the WHOLE church thing (seminary at 6 in the morning before school for 4 years) except go on a mission and I am incredibly objective in my judgement generally, but particularily with this.

I think the idea is great but I can't align myself with something I know is patently false.

You believe it because of emotions.

That very fact should mean alarm bells ringing through your head and reverberating through your body. If you pass judgmement based on emotion you are going to make a biased/emotion affected judgement.

There is NOTHING that you can say that makes it true that I cannot refute including your testimony which I know is supposed to be the ultimate rejection of critisicm.

PS The fact that people in your ward drink mountain dew shows that its false. If you really believed it was against the advice of prophets there is no fucking way you would go anywhere near it.

People accept it because its convenient.

All the brainwashing was highlighted x 9839872 after I read about scientology when a mate joined it.

Join the religion by all means.

You will have a comfortable, naive, misguided life highlighted with dissapointment and wasted devotion.

Mormons try to make themselves sound like victims and guilt trip you all day long buddy.

Porter Rockwell - close friend of Joseph Smith killed plenty of people.

He was in jail FOR Joseph and when he got out dirty, starving and looked like a bum he went to a town hall to ask for Joseph and when he got there JS tried to FIGHT him before he realised who he was.

He was going to attack him because he was a bum. That is enough said but I have unlimited reasons why its not right, if you think this is a long post I am not even started mate I could go on all day long.

You're right, my testimony IS the ultimate rejection of criticism. Whether or not you believe it's the truth, hell, even if it isn't, I have a great life being mormon. The universe makes sense, I have faith in things I can't see, and I am happy. I'm not out to convert anyone here, I just figured it'd be a hoot to parallel that jehova's witness topic.

As for people in the ward drinking mountain dew, it's not a widespread epidemic, most that do are converts like myself, and there are a majority of people within said ward that wouldn't touch anything caffeinated. However, my point is that the people that do follow the advice of the prophet in that regard don't look down on those who don't.

And another thing, if I'm wrong, if the whole mormon thing is a croc of shit, (and I'm 100% sure it isn't) I will live a longer, happier life simply because I have faith in SOMETHING.

Whatever your life. http://www.carm.org/images/imagea13.gif WTF? Anibus? "Christianity"?

Exd 20:5 (KJV) Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;

The lord is the alpha and the omega. He always was and always will be.

Mormons and most religion for that matter seem like a good way to go for people that have given up. There is always hope and always an optimism associated with a greater purpose.

You are guaruntee'd a happier life I totally agree. Ignorance is bliss.

I just cannot knowingly follow something for that reason.

How do you explain the lack of any miracle when in the old days people were being raised by the dead e.t.c. Do not suggest that miracles occur because people search for 'miracles' but you can see a 'miracle' every day if you

If it makes you happy its not necessarily good (see cocaine). Mormonism corrupts your thought processes.

How about the fact that jews today are persecuted because jews allegedly killed Jesus. But we are not going to be negatively affected by what Adam did in the garden of Eden.

Why the double standards?

My mum slapped me once and I said 'are you feeling the spirit right now?' and she said 'yes'.

Who is Joseph Smith that you should listen to him?

I'll reply to you heaps if you want because I've never really talked to anyone about this because people either don't care or if they do care they just try to make me a 'good member'.

By the way my dad is the stake president.

wow, your girlfriend suckered you into it... I guess its true that theres a sucker born every minute....

my ex tried to get my to convert, or at least goto church with her, i wouldnt. first off she drank (alot) and we fucked a few times a day, so she wasnt as good a mormon as she claimed to be. also she is a compulisive liar and has mental problems....but im getting off topic....If you're an outsider being sucked into mormonism, you're a total sucker. its obviously so BS, no rational person could honestly believe that crap. tell me that you honestly believe that there were white indians here in north america co existing with the reds. the white indians here were the lost tribe of israel? cmon!! Jesus' second coming is gonna be in birmingham, alabama (or some other hick city)???? did you read this crap yet?? its like when the book of mormon was being written someone was doing mad-libs and thought itd be funny if he pushed it off as a religion when he was done...

quote:However I will say that they're Christians, because they strive to be like Christ. They might have bastardized it a little, but every sect of Christianity does that, whether you like it or not.

Parable Time!!!

Deptstoremook and I are at a nice restaurant. Suddenly, a man at a nearby table starts choking on a piece of steak. We both agree someone has to administer the heimlich maneuver.

However, deptstoremook knows what the real heimlich manuver is and i think its slapping the man across the face with a tunafish sandwich.

We're both calling it the same thing, but they are two different things and only one will actually save the man.

theBishop

quote:its like when the book of mormon was being written someone was doing mad-libs and thought itd be funny if he pushed it off as a religion when he was done...

i friggin' love mad libs! maybe i should go back to my girlfriend's church! i was nearly suckered too, but i found the proof that it is NOT true and gave my life to christ instead.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

Parable Time!!!

Deptstoremook and I are at a nice restaurant. Suddenly, a man at a nearby table starts choking on a piece of steak. We both agree someone has to administer the heimlich maneuver.

However, deptstoremook knows what the real heimlich manuver is and i think its slapping the man across the face with a tunafish sandwich.

We're both calling it the same thing, but they are two different things and only one will actually save the man.

theBishop

Counter-parable:

theBishop and I are discussing church matters in a fancy schmancy restaurant in Manhattan when a man begins choking, and is flailing around wildly. theBishop begins to wind up for a punch to the gut, but I stop him and say "no, you have to do it [i]this[i] way" and aim for his head. Me and theBishop end up getting into a fight with one another and the man ends up dead on the floor.

Alternate ending: zoom shot of Jesus shedding a single tear.

EDIT: Wow, that was good parable.

[This message has been edited by deptstoremook (edited 11-27-2004).]

Homerjay, if you truely did bring my proof of JS's fraud to the missionaries I'd like to hear what they said.

I've been trying to decide if its wrong to distribute a pamphletized version of that article in front of the local mormon ward. Seems like if their souls are at stake they should get to hear the truth.

I'm not really sure how an intellectually honest person could look at that and remain a mormon. You of course, do not seem to be intellectually honest.

theBishop

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

Homerjay, if you truely did bring my proof of JS's fraud to the missionaries I'd like to hear what they said.

I've been trying to decide if its wrong to distribute a pamphletized version of that article in front of the local mormon ward. Seems like if their souls are at stake they should get to hear the truth.

I'm not really sure how an intellectually honest person could look at that and remain a mormon. You of course, do not seem to be intellectually honest.

theBishop

If somebody has a belief they should be willing to back it up. I would do it if I were you. Are you talking about the "hieroglyphs", because I found that very intriguing and I'm not sure if it was you who posted it.

Yeah that was me. The whole church is dependent upon JS' translation abilities, and those hieroglyphics proove he's a fraud.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

Yeah that was me. The whole church is dependent upon JS' translation abilities, and those hieroglyphics proove he's a fraud.

Could I see the link again? I would like it.

I think the most obvious argument against the hieroglyph fraud is that when he x-lated the Book of Mormon he was "divinely inspired". I'm sure you know the story, but it involved a magical hat and magical glasses and an angel told him what it was all about. So maybe when he x-lated the glyphs it was just him taking a stab at it?

That's the argument you'll hear, anyway.

PS - admit the superiority of my parable.

[This message has been edited by deptstoremook (edited 11-28-2004).]

http://www.carm.org/lds/ldspapyri.htm

Well, when i was studying the book of mormon and going to their church for like 2 years i never once heard about the Urum and Thummim ("Seer Stones"). To be honest the first time i heard about them was in the episode of South Park.

But JS also "Translated" the bible. I don't know if he used the stones to perform that translation. In the link it explains that he sort of eyeballed the papayri and purchased it. Then he began "translating" the papayri. Its unclear wether or not he used the stones.

I believe the Golden Plates were taken away by an angel or something. I don't know if the stones were also "taken" at that time as well. There are way too many convenient coincidences for me to trust the mormon faith anyway, but this papayri thing seems like the last nail in the coffin.

theBishop

PS: my parable was better. if you continue to disagree i'd be happy to administer the heimlich with my tunafish sandwich.

Jackketch,

catholicism was the christian church long before Luther and others broke off and changed things, creating essentially new belief sets and theologies. What amazes me is that the Catholic church is more together than any other Christian church, even after so long. your comment much much earlier in the thread just seemed rather ignorant and closed-minded. don't forget history.

I'm a former catholic so my views may be a little biased, but i don't agree with their beliefs.

I want people to look at things from many points of view before coming to decisions, and I guess my point is Catholics are Christians, as they were the first and only christian church for a millenia and a half.

that's all. good day to you.

mormonism is wrong because in Christianity, Jesus should be the focus, not some man from a couple hundred years ago. he was on shrooms, hallucinated, and then thought he was a prophet, well it can happen to the best of us. only people believed him......that was the problem.

If you want to believe in that and it brings your life meaning, by all means enjoy it. If not, then i suggest finding a better belief system, one that isn't so full of easily seen holes.

quote: I guess my point is Catholics are Christians, as they were the first and only christian church for a millenia and a half.

i don't remember ever saying that catholics aren't christians? if i even implied that then i apologise.

secondly i'm a lapsed catholic too.

thirdly if you think that the catholic church was the 'first and only for 1500 years' then you are wrong...very very wrong.

quote:I've been trying to decide if its wrong to distribute a pamphletized version of that article in front of the local mormon ward. Seems like if their souls are at stake they should get to hear the truth.

i would urge you not to.

and luckily for me (and the rest of you too) God decides if someones 'soul'{wtf is that ?) is at stake-not you-not me not the writers of 'I was a deluded morman but found Christ' type of books.

Yeah well to be honest i probably wont do it anyway. But if there were proof that your religion was false wouldn't you want to see it?

And the pamphlet doesn't already exist, its not like it'd be tracting for Carm, i'd have to make it myself.

quote:But if there were proof that your religion was false wouldn't you want to see it

the question is what is proof?

i don't know what you believe bish but if you're any sort of mainstream christian then i could show you proof after proof that most of what you believe is a lie.

would you want to see it? mebbe...

would it change your mind however conclusive the proof was? nope



Food For Thought:

-----------------

what would be for you personally proof that jesus christ never existed? what could archeologists discover that would shake your faith to the core?

think about it...

and the chances are you'll realise however conclusive the proof you'd probably not accept it as valid.

yes. if you could prove that christ never existed, i would definitely want to see it because i try to be intellectually honest about my faith.

The mormon faith has such a proof. If JS could not translate the golden plates there's no book of mormon, and thus no religion. And i have proof that JS's translation ability is a fraud. That type of proof is on the level of archologists finding Jesus' bones (which would prove the ressurection to be false).

quote:That type of proof is on the level of archologists finding Jesus' bones (which would prove the ressurection to be false).

all that would prove (even if the find was recognised by the powers that be) is that a lot of churches teachings on jesus after the asscension are false... (something scholars have always known).

even those biblically challenged christians who believe christ was ressurrected in a purely spritual body agree that his bones must be probably be somewhere..

and if the bones were shown to be from a man in his say 50's then most christians would simply believe they could not possibly be from their jesus.

btw when i challenged some mormon friends a while back on the book of abraham their reply was simply 'JS translated it 'spritually'...giving it the meaning God intended for his people at that time...GOd not being limited to human ideas on the meaning of 'glyphs'..

[This message has been edited by jackketch (edited 11-29-2004).]

quote:btw when i challenged some mormon friends a while back on the book of abraham their reply was simply 'JS translated it 'spritually'...giving it the meaning God intended for his people at that time...GOd not being limited to human ideas on the meaning of 'glyphs'..

that's the biggest load of dung i've ever heard. I have a feeling at some point mormons go through a phase where they realize their church is a joke and figure "well i'm still living a good healthy life, with a good, stable family".

quote:Originally posted by MasterPython:

I am not trying to prove the ark story, I am trying to show how God would have to let morals go out the window for it to be true.

But you are forgetting one key factor: two different types of law.

Please, PLEASE read the Bible if you are going to try and talk about it as if you were some sort fo authority.

Your ignorance could cost someone else their soul.

Polygamy was NEVER advocated by God. He gave Adam ONE WOMAN, not several.

Also, God knows the heart of man, and having several spouse's would never work, if intimacy and trust (essential factors to any marriage) were to be achieved.

What you are not considering is the fact that the JEWS had their own laws, aside from the laws God gave to them.

Have you studied those at all ? Polygamy is in there.

And just to clarify, it is not necessarily true that Noah's family practiced polygamy.

Each of the sons was married, to a woman not of their line. They had children, and their children had children. It's really not that hard of a concept.

*sighs*

quote:Originally posted by Fanglekai:

What amazes me is that the Catholic church is more together than any other Christian church, even after so long.

It's called FEAR.

quote:Originally posted by Fanglekai:

mormonism is wrong because in Christianity, Jesus should be the focus, not some man from a couple hundred years ago.



AMEN !

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

i would urge you not to.

and luckily for me (and the rest of you too) God decides if someones 'soul'{wtf is that ?) is at stake-not you-not me not the writers of 'I was a deluded morman but found Christ' type of books.



It is true that we do not decide whose soul is at stake, and whose is not. (that would include everyone's soul, so your point is moot)

But God has given us (Christians) the responsibility of discipling.

Not only does it help us to know Him better, but it teaches us humility, and servitude.

The Bible is filled with scripture that instructs us to reach out to the corners of the earth, proclaiming the gospel of Christ.

The more you write, the more obvious it becomes that you haven't read the word of God.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

Yeah well to be honest i probably wont do it anyway. But if there were proof that your religion was false wouldn't you want to see it?

And the pamphlet doesn't already exist, its not like it'd be tracting for Carm, i'd have to make it myself.

If you have been convicted to do it (which it seems like you have), I wouldn't fight it.

Pray about it...you'll get an answer. :-)

quote: but it teaches us humility, and servitude.



if only that were true http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

have i read the word of god?

ok kiddo cos its a boring evening we'll see how far you've studied the bible...

where in the NT does jesus make jokes about 'blow jobs'? yes i'm serious. its in there. but you'd really have to have read your bible to know it

btw this isn't even first year theology stuff just basic bible knowledge.

[This message has been edited by jackketch (edited 11-30-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

that's the biggest load of dung i've ever heard. I have a feeling at some point mormons go through a phase where they realize their church is a joke and figure "well i'm still living a good healthy life, with a good, stable family".



yep i'd have to agree with you there

quote:Polygamy was NEVER advocated by God

hmm i'd have to agree that god never advocated it...in the strictest sense of the word ...

BUT he sure as fuck made clear its ok by him.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

But you are forgetting one key factor: two different types of law.

Please, PLEASE read the Bible if you are going to try and talk about it as if you were some sort fo authority.

Your ignorance could cost someone else their soul.

Polygamy was NEVER advocated by God. He gave Adam ONE WOMAN, not several.

Also, God knows the heart of man, and having several spouse's would never work, if intimacy and trust (essential factors to any marriage) were to be achieved.

What you are not considering is the fact that the JEWS had their own laws, aside from the laws God gave to them.

Have you studied those at all ? Polygamy is in there.

And just to clarify, it is not necessarily true that Noah's family practiced polygamy.

Each of the sons was married, to a woman not of their line. They had children, and their children had children. It's really not that hard of a concept.

*sighs*

ty for explaining this Digital_Savior.



and whoever started this thread is going to GET P3ND BY THE MAGIC MORMAN "GARMENTS".. http://molelog.molehill.org/blox/Smut/JustWeird/MormonGarments.writeback

Yay you.

Cheers,

Lost

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Each of the sons was married, to a woman not of their line. They had children, and their children had children. It's really not that hard of a concept.

*sighs*

There would only be four kinds of mitochodrial DNA if that happened. There are at least seven. There is no way that much mutation could take place in the fourthousand or so years since the flood was suposed to have taken place.

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

hmm i'd have to agree that god never advocated it...in the strictest sense of the word ...

BUT he sure as fuck made clear its ok by him.

How so ? Care to give some scripture supporting that ?

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:



if only that were true http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

have i read the word of god?

ok kiddo cos its a boring evening we'll see how far you've studied the bible...

where in the NT does jesus make jokes about 'blow jobs'? yes i'm serious. its in there. but you'd really have to have read your bible to know it

btw this isn't even first year theology stuff just basic bible knowledge.

[This message has been edited by jackketch (edited 11-30-2004).]

I can't believe you are even trying to pass that off as actual Biblical text.

Go ahead and share it with us, since I can't reference such a scripture, being that it doesn't exist.

Whatever you THINK it is, I'll debunk it for ya.

Thanks.

digi.

too many to list at this time of night (midnight here).

and secondly i would expect even you to know your bible that well.

quote:I can't believe you are even trying to pass that off as actual Biblical text.

Go ahead and share it with us, since I can't reference such a scripture, being that it doesn't exist.

Whatever you THINK it is, I'll debunk it for ya.

like it or not it is an actual bible text although somehow it doesn't surprise me that you know not of it.

actually among scholars (of which i'm not) its exceedingly well known.

Genesis 9:1 - "Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth."

God commanded, so no matter HOW it happened, it came to pass.

Is it lost on you that this may have taken place supernaturally ?

A God that can flood an entire planet to destroy mankind could surely populate it again.

Genesis 9:7 - "As for you, be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth and increase upon it."

He repeated Himself. It is obvious He was sure of Himself.

Genesis 9:18 - "18 The sons of Noah who came out of the ark were Shem, Ham and Japheth. (Ham was the father of Canaan.) 19 These were the three sons of Noah, and from them came the people who were scattered over the earth."

I think this scripture defines the lineage of man.

I have to go, but I will get into this a little deeper soon.

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

digi.

too many to list at this time of night (midnight here).

and secondly i would expect even you to know your bible that well.

Jesus NEVER referenced blowjobs...I would stake my life on it.

If you can't reference even ONE of these multiple scriptures in which you claim he does, then I call you a liar.

Please, enlighten me.

My biblical knowledge (or lack of it) does nothing to prove or disprove your claim.

Post it.

quote: I'll debunk it for ya.

let me know when you publish your first tome on the correct usage and understanding of aramaic synonyms then you can explain it all to me and i'll listen.

until then i'll listen to the experts.

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

like it or not it is an actual bible text although somehow it doesn't surprise me that you know not of it.

actually among scholars (of which i'm not) its exceedingly well known.

Yet you still haven't posted it.

I don't know why it would surprise you that I don't know a verse in which you claim that Jesus jokes about blowjobs, but I would venture to say that I know quite a bit more than anyone else on Totse about the Bible and it's scriptures, save maybe Xtreem, and Bishop.

I say they don't exist, and you still make empty claims.

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

let me know when you publish your first tome on the correct usage and understanding of aramaic synonyms then you can explain it all to me and i'll listen.

until then i'll listen to the experts.

Of which you have yet to reference, or quote.

I study Aramaic and Hebrew context in regards to the Bible as often as my life permits me.

Try me.

Originally posted by jackketch:

digi.

too many to list at this time of night (midnight here).

and secondly i would expect even you to know your bible that well.

Jesus NEVER referenced blowjobs...I would stake my life on it.

If you can't reference even ONE of these multiple scriptures in which you claim he does, then I call you a liar.

Please, enlighten me.

My biblical knowledge (or lack of it) does nothing to prove or disprove your claim.

Post it.

--------------------------------------



digi you misunderstood or i explained badly. the 'too many to list' refered to polygamy question. not the oral sex one.

We weren't talking about polygamy, we were talking about blowjobs.

Please try to follow the topic, or don't expect me to.

I know there are plenty of polygamist's in the Bible.

I maintain that this doesn't mean God condoned it, or even tolerated it.

It's always been a sin in His eyes.

actually digi i was following the topic..if you go back and check you'll see our posts crossed.

quote: you still make empty claims.

i asked you (or anyone else remotely interested) if you knew where it was? i don't expect you to believe it ...its hard for a christian to look beyond their prejudicies to the text itself (even the grestest scholars have admitted to that failing)

i was kinda hoping you'd say 'its at **** but thats just a satanic mistranslation' or some such.



[This message has been edited by jackketch (edited 12-02-2004).]

OK, well i don't think anyone's concordance has an entry for "blowjob", but let's see what verse is synonymous. Out with it.

QUOTE Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

save maybe Xtreem /QUOTE

Thanks Digital, but please, i dont think i am at a level "worthy" of recognition. You and Bishop have taught me much. As have quite a few other members (both Christians and non-christians). I do hope that i have also helped others learn ... but that hope is not for the sake of making my "head bigger". That hope is for the sake of the person that may have learned.

As far as the sub-topic at hand, I too would like Jack to submit Bible Version/Book/Chapter/Verse, so that i could see it for myself and study it.

As far as the statement that Jack said or implied (that he doubts that anyone here would know that it was in the Bible), I have this comment... I've talked to one pastor (he has been a pastor for over 40 years) and heard another one (although i dont know how long he has been in ministry, but he is in his 70's) say the same thing... they are continually amazed that they still find "new" things in the Bible... actual passages, concepts, applications and deeper meanings... even after all the years studying it. So, jackketch, whether one studys the Bible their whole long life or has just picked it up for the very first time, somethings are going to be noticed and some not.

I do hope that Jack shares with us.

It is also wise to accept that each time you read it, God will speak to you in different ways.

Depending on your spiritual maturity, your life situations, and your willingness to listen to what He has to tell you.

You cannot read the Bible once, or even 5 times, and know everything about it.

That's the beauty of it.

And that is why it is a living, SPIRITUAL book, instead of just a story.

We're waiting, Jack. (I know you think you are being coy, but really you are showing that you either haven't got a verse, or that you are playing games)

quote:We're waiting, Jack. (I know you think you are being coy, but really you are showing that you either haven't got a verse, or that you are playing games)



lol, luckily i'm old enough and also firm enough in my faith not to have to give a toss what you think.

i was just kinda interested to see how much you knew.

its in there..mebbe you'll find it one day ..mebbe you won't. personally i won't lose a minutes sleep if you don't.

quote:I would venture to say that I know quite a bit more than anyone else on Totse about the Bible and it's scriptures, save maybe Xtreem, and Bishop.

if you manage somehow to progress in your faith and biblical studies you will realise that you know nothing and that you never will.

which is according to socrates is the start to real knowledge.

vaporware.

^^^huh?

if you have something, you should post it, otherwise stop making claims you can't or won't prove.

... officially no longer interested.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I know there are plenty of polygamist's in the Bible.

I maintain that this doesn't mean God condoned it, or even tolerated it.

It's always been a sin in His eyes.

Well it's good to know that your view of God is more accurate than the Bible's.

What kind of Christian are you, anyway?

[This message has been edited by deptstoremook (edited 12-03-2004).]

Mook, ask questions you want to know the answers to.

It is not difficult to understand God if you read the WHOLE Bible, instead of picking out single verses or chapters to somehow discredit the legitimacy of it all.

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

oh right... i'm willing to prove it but only to those i think have enough biblical knowledge to understand it. and the one person on this board i thnk has (so far) i've IM'd about this.

here a transcript

jacquesketchse23 (7:20:18 AM): /me wonders if any of the christians on MY GOD will know that...

******** (7:20:59 AM): doubtfully...but I'm looking forward to seeing if they do....or if they ask where?

jacquesketchse23 (7:21:44 AM): its a shame that kinda thing doesn't get taught in church....

jacquesketchse23 (7:22:10 AM): yes she should go down in history for offering the lord a blow job

******* (7:22:30 AM): looks like she did...(note.'looks like she did = go down in history..)

that person knows who they are (illogical sentence that i know). if they choose to share it thats up to them.

me i can't be arsed to waste my time explaining something every 1st year theology student knows.

[This message has been edited by jackketch (edited 12-02-2004).]

You have wasted plenty of time already, playing a proverbial cat and mouse game.

Might as well waste some more, in order to keep yourself from looking trite.

Anyway, I wasn't asking you to explain anything to me. I asked you to provide the verse.

I have read the Bible, cover to cover, 4 times now, and on my 5th go 'round.

I have never seen anything referring to blowjobs, in English, Aramaic, or Hebrew contexts.

I ask you for the verse, because I am ultimately convinced that you do not understand what you read; therefor, how can I know which verse you are referring to ?

Your misunderstanding of Biblical text does not make your misunderstanding truth, nor does it show that I do not know the Bible as well as I should.

It shows that you misunderstood, and nothing else.

Suit yourself.

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

if you manage somehow to progress in your faith and biblical studies you will realise that you know nothing and that you never will.

which is according to socrates is the start to real knowledge.



By the way, I never said I knew enough to be considered a scholar, nor that I was close to achieving complete knowledge of every aspect of the Bible.

In a previous post, I stated that everytime you read it, it tells you something new.

Obviously, that means I can never know everything about the Bible, but I know the basics, and that is apparently more than you.

Sorry, but your argument is...

Ah, there is no word for it.

Hi Digital

This question is off topic but I would like to know which version of the Bible (e.g. King James) you consider to be best or most accurate. I also can't read Greek, Aramaic, Latin... It would have to be English. (Also, if necessary, I was raised Catholic but I'm not a 'die hard' Christian.)

I'm asking because I considered buying one so I could gain some insight. (Especially comparing it to modern science http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif) )

Thanks a lot.

Cougar

Digi and the others

first off I Apologise i've deleted the post you quoted above (the transcript) because on re reading it sounded both childish and conceited.



ok i'll answer the question.(although i'm disappointed no one knew it but thats the way it goes i suppose)

the aramaic phrase Mia-Hayya - Water of Life.

can have vareity of meanings ...for example Mia (water ) can refer to almost any sort of water or sea as well as bodily fluids.

(ever seen 'drinking waters of your own cistern' translated as drinking your own urine? well thats why).

2 possible meanings of Mia -Hayya would be 'semen' or 'vaginal fluids'

so now read jesu' conversation with the samarian woman at jacobs well...

I AM NOT CLAIMING THAT THIS IS THE TRUE MEANING OF THE CONVERSATION

although it would explain the mystery of it a bit better than the usual christian dialetic crap. here was our saviour doing what he did so well. being compassionate and understanding of this nymphomaniac(?).

-----------------------------------

please tell me no one here was stupid enough to actually grab their Strongs and search for 'bj's'??



[This message has been edited by jackketch (edited 12-03-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

samarian woman at jacobs well...



Thank you for sharing Jack. I'm going to bed now, i'll read it later.

night

Im mormon too, not a very good one, it's a little strict, I cant even drink anything with Caffine, that includes cola.

oh well

peace out

a little strict mormon called cunnybunny?

or does cunny mean something different in canada?

[This message has been edited by jackketch (edited 12-04-2004).]

Jack, after reading through this entire frustrating thread, I have no choice but to conclude that you are one stupid ass motherfucker. The reasons are obvious, listing them again in this post would be a waste of my time.

quote:Originally posted by CunnyBunny:

Im mormon too, not a very good one, it's a little strict, I cant even drink anything with Caffine, that includes cola.

oh well

peace out

Go back to Kolob!

Doesn't the Mormon hierarchy own Pepsi- Co?

quote:Originally posted by whocares123:

Jack, after reading through this entire frustrating thread, I have no choice but to conclude that you are one stupid ass motherfucker. The reasons are obvious, listing them again in this post would be a waste of my time.



thats ok kid, jesus loves you even if i don't.