I don't understand how you could not be Agnostic. Nobody really knows what's going on, except maybe dead people, and we can't really ask them. Any Christians, Muslims, whatever; are you really unwilling to admit that you just may be wrong?

Okay, man. Did you just totally blow by that whole "Faith" thing that plays an insanely important role in almost every religion known to man?

He's right, how come his opinion isn't considered better than everyone elses.

quote:Originally posted by Parallax:

Any Christians, Muslims, whatever; are you really unwilling to admit that you just may be wrong?

That seems to be the case.

it's a lot harder to convince and control people if you start by admitting that you may be wrong...

Well, I'm a weak atheist which comes pretty close to being agnostic, I reckon. I'm not 100% sure that any god doesn't exist, but based on the evidence so far I just lack belief.

quote:Originally posted by Hentai:

He's right, how come his opinion isn't considered better than everyone elses.



Well, that's just the point. I'm saying that NO ONE, not even myself, knows what's really going on. How can you possibly argue otherwise?

We never claim to know. We only claim to believe.

I'm always willing to admit that i might be wrong. But i have enough personal expirience to believe in at least a "hunch". That's why i'm not agnostic.

Short answer fear.

Long answer is beyond this format, beyond a book, beyond a series of books. I might just get started on it, but I doubt it.

quote:Originally posted by Parallax:



Well, that's just the point. I'm saying that NO ONE, not even myself, knows what's really going on. How can you possibly argue otherwise?

Everyone is an agnostic when they are born but the culture they grow up in determines what they will eventually believe in. People in all countries are 100% sure their god exists even if it hasn't(or ever will) be proven. You can be an agnostic is you want but that doesn't make your opinion better than theirs.

btw, I am not claiming that god exists or respecting any religion but I will respect their opinions just as I expect them to do the same for me.



[This message has been edited by Hentai (edited 12-03-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by R_I:

Well, I'm a weak atheist which comes pretty close to being agnostic, I reckon. I'm not 100% sure that any god doesn't exist, but based on the evidence so far I just lack belief.

Yeah, that's agnostic.

Agnosticism is the greatest; and I think that too many people with religion are over-convinced of their correctness.

Think about this: are you utterly, one hundred percent sure about everything in life? Can you define everything that happens around you in terms of science? Do you know what you're having for breakfast next week? What's the weather going to be, tomorrow? If you can't answer these questions for sure, you have to have some measure of skepticism when it comes to religion. It's just like everything else in life: subject to uncertainty, and erroneous interpretation.

Let's say, for example, that your religion (whatsoever it is) is real. Even if it is the Gospel (praise Jaysis), your human perceptions will get in the way. You can never know for sure. So don't act like you do, because you may just be in for a surprise when you die.

alot of people cant handle life, or dont believe that they can handle life, without knowing what happens when you die, whether theres a god.

logically agnosticism is the best choice. i consider myself agnostic. basically both reality with a god and reality without a god are possible ideas.

quote:Originally posted by megalomaniac:

alot of people cant handle life, or dont believe that they can handle life, without knowing what happens when you die, whether theres a god.

logically agnosticism is the best choice. i consider myself agnostic. basically both reality with a god and reality without a god are possible ideas.

What about Wittgenstein? He wrote the Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus and at first thought it solved all of philosophy's problems, then he returned to it and realised it didn't. The point I'm making is that you have to answer the question "Is human language even capable of discussing God at present?" If you find that it is then it isn't that you can't ever know but that you don't have a good enough language. In this case saying "I'm not sure" is to refuse to study philosophy in the first place, and without considering all theories and finding your flaws with them you can't truly say you are agnostic.

For claiming "not to be sure of anything", agnostics are some of the least tolerant people i know.

Do you feel that every agnostic you meet is intolerant towards you or others religious beliefs?

I consider myself an agnostic. However, because of the large role faith plays in any religion, I don't think it's my place to criticize and try and find holes in other people's beliefs if I might happen to disagree.

Helping them realize their weaknesses so they can improve them can lead to stronger character. It's better than NOT caring at all.

Imagine the reaction if i started a "How Can anyone *not* be christian"

He died for your sins after all!!!

I think the argument is that agnostism is a much more vague term, whereas Christianity is a specific religion.

A better flipside to this argument would be, "how can anyone not take the leap of faith to choose a religion"?

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

Imagine the reaction if i started a "How Can anyone *not* be christian"

He died for your sins after all!!!

Entirely different matter.. This forum expressed the idea that since no one really KNOWS for sure than they are an agnostic. That thread would express the idea that because a man was presumed by some to be the son of God died as a 'martyr' than all should believe that the God is in existence and created all.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

Imagine the reaction if i started a "How Can anyone *not* be christian"

He died for your sins after all!!!

Because if you're Christian you think your religion is right, and no one elses is. But if you're Agnostic, you admit that Christianity could be right, or Islam, etc.

Our reality exists whether we acknowlege it, or not. I personally am a athiest, but I can see where the agnostics are coming from. It all boils down to the question of faith.

quote:Because if you're Christian you think your religion is right, and no one elses is. But if you're Agnostic, you admit that Christianity could be right, or Islam, etc.

But by your own logic, no one should believe in them.

That's not nescessarily true. Note my previous post. As an agnostic, I don't feel it's my place to criticize other people's religions, because of the role faith plays, and because they could be right.

Before you go around making grand sweeping generalizations about agnostics being intolerant, take a look at yourself and stop making so many damn assumptions.

You're not the one saying everyone should be agnostic. I didn't quote you.

Sorry, I assumed you were talking about agnostics in general. But you did say agnostics are some of the least tolerant epople you know.

I didn't say everyone should be Agnostic. People can follow whatever religion they want, as long as I don't have to be involved, I don't give a shit.

I'm simply wondering how it's possible that people can just pick one religion out of the thousands out there, and think there's is the only one that's right, and there's no way anyone else is.

That's why I'm Agnostic. There's just no way to prove or disprove any of it.

And that my friend, is why faith plays such a large role in those religions.

We're just more careful, discerning, or something.

Blindfold yourself, spin the wheel, and pray (heh) that you land on something lax.

What amazes me is the human capacity to argue who's right over what happens after death instead of just living their lives. Look, we're alive right now, so let's live. When we're dead, if we can, we'll care about what happens then. Wouldn't shit be more enjoyable?

i just believe that living your life being gullible is bad. if there is a god, he must understand the reasons why i believe in the possibility of gods non existence, since he is all knowing. and because using logic proves useful in other areas of life, if i cant witness something in a real physical way, believing in it seems (to me) useless.

Religion is a way of not accepting death.

Cut and dried, that is it.

Until people learn to accept there is no afterlife, resurrection, eternal life, people will find blind faith in the most outlandish possibilities.

Christians spend half their life worrying about whether they'll get to heaven, they forget to even consider the possibility it doesnt exist.

Death isn't a pleasant thing to face, but think of it this way:

Death is a life-ending sentence to sleep, without the possibility of dreams. When you are dead you will feel what you feel when you are asleep but not dreaming (REM). NOTHING

Learn to accept this.

quote:Originally posted by TheDinnertimeBandit:

Religion is a way of not accepting death.

Cut and dried, that is it.

Until people learn to accept there is no afterlife, resurrection, eternal life, people will find blind faith in the most outlandish possibilities.

Christians spend half their life worrying about whether they'll get to heaven, they forget to even consider the possibility it doesnt exist.

Death isn't a pleasant thing to face, but think of it this way:

Death is a life-ending sentence to sleep, without the possibility of dreams. When you are dead you will feel what you feel when you are asleep but not dreaming (REM). NOTHING

Learn to accept this.

This man speaks the truth!

quote:Originally posted by TheDinnertimeBandit:

Religion is a way of not accepting death.

Cut and dried, that is it.

Until people learn to accept there is no afterlife, resurrection, eternal life, people will find blind faith in the most outlandish possibilities.

Christians spend half their life worrying about whether they'll get to heaven, they forget to even consider the possibility it doesnt exist.

Death isn't a pleasant thing to face, but think of it this way:

Death is a life-ending sentence to sleep, without the possibility of dreams. When you are dead you will feel what you feel when you are asleep but not dreaming (REM). NOTHING

Learn to accept this.

The problem is, if this were the case, why then create, and further more, accept, the concept of hell? If they feared death, wouldn't it follow that they would fear a painful afterlife as well?

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

The problem is, if this were the case, why then create, and further more, accept, the concept of hell?

To keep their neighbours off their property and to control their kids. Do you have any idea how hard it is to control kids without putting fear into them?

quote:If they feared death, wouldn't it follow that they would fear a painful afterlife as well?

They do...

You are apparently confusing my argument. I'm arguing against the premise that religion was created soley because fear of death.

By saying it serves the purpose of, 'keeping their neighbours off their property and to control their kids.'

You're agreeing with me.

By saying they fear a painful afterlife, you're once again agreeing with me.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

You are apparently confusing my argument. I'm arguing against the premise that religion was created soley because fear of death.

Hmm, perhaps you should not have quoted his entire post then. The first sentence would have done just fine.

I agree that religion was not created soley because of fear of death. Case in point: animism. Most animist religions were created to explain the environment. Example: Shinto. It coexists with Buddhism because it focuses more on creationism than moral codes and the afterlife.

However, the bandit of all things supper-related seems to be equating religion with Christianity, which does have a strong emphasis on death. Christianity also has a strong emphasis on morality, but this is tied tightly to the afterlife. You don't need religion to tell you what's right and wrong, but you do need religion (or science) to tell you what will happen when you die.

quote:Originally posted by TheDinnertimeBandit:

Death is a life-ending sentence to sleep, without the possibility of dreams. When you are dead you will feel what you feel when you are asleep but not dreaming (REM). NOTHING

Learn to accept this.

If you could prove to me beyond a doubt that there really is no afterlife, I'd love to hear it.

Otherwise, you're no better than the people who claim their religion is the only possible correct one.

This is exactly why I'm Agnostic. I'm willing to admit that I just don't know.

Heh, but the premise of this thread is that you think everyone should just "not know", which i see your point on some level, but i think it misunderstands why people believe their religion.

I would venture to guess that the majority of religious people do not believe because they are most philosophically compatible with the religion they chose. I think it has a lot more to do with how they feel when they worship, and if they think they are feeling God's prescence, etc. That kind of emotional affirmation is really difficult to justify in a strictly logical debate.

And of course there's a lot of inherited faiths, but that's neither here nor there.

theBishop

God doesn't exist!

Get over it!!

quote:Heh, but the premise of this thread is that you think everyone should just "not know", which i see your point on some level, but i think it misunderstands why people believe their religion.

there is no proof. you can have feelings of higher states of consciousness and interpret them as god, but there is no proof. as different parts of the brain become stimulated different feelings are felt, such as those of a presence which can be interpreted as god ( i hope i worded that reight), but the thing is, whether it is god, no one knows.

i dont believe that belief in god is inherently bad. its just that alot people who believe in god tend to believe everything they are told.

quote:Originally posted by WhiteWidow:

God doesn't exist!

Get over it!!

Prove or disprove it.

quote:Originally posted by Parallax:

Prove or disprove it.

He dosen't have to disprove it. The people who claim god exists must prove it before he is able to disprove it. The burden of proof falls on those who believe in god.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

Faith doesn't make any sense. Why would someone blindly believe anything? It's utterly ridiculous. The Bible is just a collection of books, God doesn't exist, there is no afterlife.



Animals have no afterlife.

We are animals.

We have no afterlife.

We are nothing more than animals with fancy toys and the ability to contemplate our existence.

I won't believe in any concept of an omniscient God who would punish me for not believing in him without solid proof. In fact, I think he'd reward me for not wasting the time he gave me here. I believe that the greatest sin is wasting ability, which is what most Christians do. Instead of concentrating on doing something good here and now, they worry about things that'll never happen.

Life would be a lot happier if everyone got over the notion that there must be something more. There doesn't have to be anything, and that's exactly the point. Take advantage of what you have, don't squander it.

Fanglekai's right you guys. You're so smart! Where did you come up with those ideas? I've seriously never heard them before. You should write a book or something man. Seriously. You should call it "Why God Doesn't Exist" or maybe "Why Do All These Stupid Christians Believe in Things They Can't See" or maybe "Religion is for Pussies"! You're a rare mind.

......

theBishop

quote:Originally posted by Fanglekai:

Faith doesn't make any sense. Why would someone blindly believe anything? It's utterly ridiculous.

People blindly believe lots of things. We all have to work on assumptions. I blindly believe the universe formed after The Great Kablooie, even though the theory is based on rather limited evidence.

Fath makes perfect sense. If lots of people believed that you went to heaven when you died, rather than rotting in the ground, why not comfort yourself with this thought? Why not believe that good actions are rewarded and that justice is eventually served? Why not believe there is a reason to be a nice and upstanding person? There's nothing to lose in doing so.

I'm no Christian and I defy Christian reasoning because I can't buy it. You can't either, but all people are different. For me it is easy to see why some choose to make the blind leap of faith.

quote:Originally posted by Fanglekai:

Life would be a lot happier if everyone got over the notion that there must be something more.

There is absolutely no evidence of this. Never state a subjective opinion as fact.

quote:Take advantage of what you have, don't squander it.

You quote a Christian belief. Good Christians don't squander anything - they use what they have to spread morals and help the needy.

quote:Originally posted by Fanglekai:

Life would be a lot happier if everyone got over the notion that there must be something more. There doesn't have to be anything, and that's exactly the point.

Yes, I think this is the reason a lot of people follow a certain religion. I don't know of any religions that don't say something about the afterlife. What does that tell you?

I think most of them are just insecure, and can't stand the thought that they're not part of something, and that this is their life, and when they die, it's over.

So they follow these ridiculous beliefs because they're too insecure to even consider the fact that maybe nobody knows what's really going on, except the people in charge.

Edit: Obviously I'm not talking about ALL people who choose to follow a certain religion. Just most of them.

[This message has been edited by Parallax (edited 12-09-2004).]

The atheist's argument is based on that, if God is perfect in every way(by concept of God), then why is there evil in the world.

Perhaps God allows evil because it is necessary to avoid a greater evil or to, in the end, cause a greater good. This is morally-justified evil. Evil that does not lead to good or avoid a greater evil is morally-unjustified evil. So, maybe God is allowing justifed evil. But one could make the observation that there is unjustified evil, even though, until the end of time, it is uncertain that this evil will cause good or avoid greater evil. So the atheist jumps to the conclusion that, since there is unjustified evil(by observation and inference), and God would not allow this(by nature of God), that there is no God. If there is truly unjustified evil, then this argument would be considered valid.

The nihilist's argument is that everything is chance, and we have free will. Pretty simple, but no rational person would be a nihilist, because a rational person(by nature of rationality), would believe that everything has a purpose.

I'm getting tired of typing, so keep this thread alive, and I might post the theist's argument.

quote:Originally posted by Hentai:

He dosen't have to disprove it. The people who claim god exists must prove it before he is able to disprove it. The burden of proof falls on those who believe in god.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

Exactly.

I claim I can fly.

Someone says "Prove you can!"

I say "Prove I can't!"

Hence, I must be able to fly.

Makes sense? Thought not.



But, don't bother arguing with anyone dedicated to a religion. You can't argue with faith, since by definition, faith has no basis to argue against.

quote:Originally posted by blututh1.0:

even though, until the end of time, it is uncertain that this evil will cause good or avoid greater evil

I guess I'm guilty of this argument, because I refuse to believe things like the Holocaust are justifiable, even by a god.

quote:Originally posted by blututh1.0:

a rational person(by nature of rationality), would believe that everything has a purpose.

I don't understand how believing that nothing has a purpose cannot be rational. A rational person would certainly believe that everything can be explained - perhaps you confused explainability with purpose. It takes a leap beyond rationality to attribute purpose to something because purpose is subjective.

quote:Originally posted by Sarter:

I don't understand how believing that nothing has a purpose cannot be rational. A rational person would certainly believe that everything can be explained - perhaps you confused explainability with purpose. It takes a leap beyond rationality to attribute purpose to something because purpose is subjective.

Yes, I did. My bad.

People tend to fight for power. To admit that one is not agnostic gives them power over he who admits "I am not really sure". No one is really sure, they just put up a front that they are sure in order to feel superior and appear superior in front of others. This is partially why I have named myself and atheist. Without a solid, defined set of beliefs, everyone out there will not hesitate to walk all over you and your beliefs.

Ultimately, no one is sure of their beliefs. They hope to intimidate others with their confidence and hope they will not be attacked.

True that.