So I've been thinking.......

God is love.

One of the only definitions of God in the bible is that, "God is love".

..........................................

It's hard for me to gather my thoughts in a very organized manner, but here's another thought.

We constantly try to fit God into parameters and technicalities. I know it's a cliche christian answer to say, "You just can't understand God". But it's true.

The fact that our vocabulary alone fucks up our view of God sets us off to a bad start.

After that, any description we give of God personifies him. See, right there, I called God, "He".

We have a very skewed view of God in western thought. And it's all the greeks fault, but that's beside the point.

When this American educated Indian man went back to India. He taught kids around U.S. military bases. When he would ask the kids where God is, all the american kids would point to the sky, and all the indian kids would point at themselves.

Just an interesting perspective.

............................................

We are always trying to destroy God with catch-22's about his 3 omni's. (Omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent).

Well, what if we took the definition of God=Love. Then maybe his omnipotence (all-power) was actually just pure love.

If you look at it, Jesus obviously had power. But he did not have the traditional power that our psyche associates with the word. When most of us think "powerful", we think about an abuse of power, an iron fist.

Jesus was powerful, but it was his love that made him powerful.

God could just be all-love, thusly all-powerful.

------------------------------------------

Many people point out the whole omniscience/free will problem.

There is one way to ressurect this issue.

Think about back to the future.

That one dude went back in time with an almanac, he knows everything that's going to happen, but does that change any of the choices that anyone makes?

Unless he intereferes, then that would be a break of free will. But otherwise, as long as he makes no contact with anyone, volition is not broken.

........................................

I don't know man, alot of random ideas that haven't really matured. Just wanted to see if I could develop them more by writing them out.

Comments, concerns, whatever..

Feel free.......

That is some good thinking. The basis of philosophy is to question what we do, even the most basica subconscious actions--i.e., calling God a "he" innately.

I don't want to create another "god doesn't exists thread," so I'll just try to generally throw my 2 cents in.

This all sounds very spiritual...and to be honest, like something many people, tripping and sober have said. It's good to try to simplify things, personally I'd say that's what atheism is; the ultimate bypassing of all accepted logic to a simple lack of god.

Anyway. I'm rambling. Without sparking a flame-fest, I'll begin the foray with, a hearty "I disagree."

Good thoughts. I like the idea that God allows us free will, though he could interfere. That is very similar to the beliefs of many early American presidents that God created the universe or whatever, winded it like a clock, and just stepped back and let it play its course, I think it's called Daeism but I'm not sure. Whatever it is, it solves alot of logical problems that have to do with gods omni presence/potence, and our free will.

Then again, just because it's logically comfortable doesn't mean a theories right?

Could we express God accurately prior "the fall" (Babel)?

I have two things to add.

#1:

Your indian, christian story is funny and sad at the same time. Sad because christians believe that god lives in us as the holy spirit. Too bad so few parents actually teach their kids the truth (as the bible tells it) rather than americanized santa claus/easter bunny christianity.

#2:

I suspect that god's view of time and our view of time is quite different. I don't think god sees time in sequence. I suspect that he views all of time at once. Because of that, we can make our own choices while not ruining god's plan.

If you're going to have a baby, you put those plastic plugs in your wall outlets and rubber padding on sharp corners of furniture, and fragile stuff out of reach, etc. You didn't take away the child's choice, but you created some failsafes.

theBishop

I have made the same comments on how god views time, and definately agree with you bishop. But I think it extends so far as God being actually all of time and all of space, so both to him, are as you said, one simultaneous pattern. God's awareness of time and space is the same thing God's awareness of his own being.

Does that make sense?

quote:I suspect that god's view of time and our view of time is quite different. I don't think god sees time in sequence. I suspect that he views all of time at once. Because of that, we can make our own choices while not ruining god's plan.

I think this is the very proof that God can not view time in this way, much less God existing.

Bear with me.

I think the very fact that we can talk about it proves that it can not exist. Whenever people say that "it's a concept our mind can not understand," it's my cue that they are endorsing the paranormal/religious. For example:

When someone explains how vortexes work on a "seperate plane," and how time is "cubic" or other such non-scientific easily disprovable theories, if they were TRULY beyond our mind's capability, we wouldn't have even the capacity to have the thought enter our minds. Get what I'm saying? If God's power "is" (claimed to be) so beyond our mental grasp, right there you (general statement) are inventing a line of logic and therefore (i would say) it is not true.

When you get down to it, I would say if God truly existed, then no one would know about it or have the abilitiy to even entertain the thought process, since "his" power is so beyond our grasp.

I say "if" only semantically.

QUOTE Originally posted by napoleon_acid:

I think the very fact that we can talk about it proves that it can not exist. Whenever people say that "it's a concept our mind can not understand," it's my cue that they are endorsing the paranormal/religious. For example:

When someone explains how vortexes work on a "seperate plane," and how time is "cubic" or other such non-scientific easily disprovable theories, if they were TRULY beyond our mind's capability, we wouldn't have even the capacity to have the thought enter our minds. Get what I'm saying? If God's power "is" (claimed to be) so beyond our mental grasp, right there you (general statement) are inventing a line of logic and therefore (i would say) it is not true.

Two things about this:

1.What we know about God, has been revealed to us... just to be "fair", even if you believe the Bible is a bunch of fairy tales, this knowledge of Him is written down.

2.we can talk about light, and we have the (general) concept of what it is. We can even observe that acts as both particle and wave, but atleast as of yet, that/those properties are beyond our grasp...so is infinity, yet we can "talk" about it.

When you get down to it, I would say if God truly existed, then no one would know about it or have the abilitiy to even entertain the thought process, since "his" power is so beyond our grasp.

I say "if" only semantically. /QUOTE

refer to point one.

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

Many people point out the whole omniscience/free will problem.

There is one way to ressurect this issue.

Think about back to the future.

That one dude went back in time with an almanac, he knows everything that's going to happen, but does that change any of the choices that anyone makes?

Unless he intereferes, then that would be a break of free will. But otherwise, as long as he makes no contact with anyone, volition is not broken.

That scenario doesn't work, because it's a scenario supporting the paradox, not refuting it.

The moment the man travels back in time, the future is already predetermined, and thus the people have no real choice, but the illusion of choice.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:



#2:

I suspect that god's view of time and our view of time is quite different. I don't think god sees time in sequence. I suspect that he views all of time at once. Because of that, we can make our own choices while not ruining god's plan.

If you're going to have a baby, you put those plastic plugs in your wall outlets and rubber padding on sharp corners of furniture, and fragile stuff out of reach, etc. You didn't take away the child's choice, but you created some failsafes.

theBishop

It has nothing to do with him interefing with anything. It has everything to do with him knowing it.

The moment he knows I'm going to choose something, I cannot choose something else, since that would refute him ever knowing I was going to choose that in the first place! Either he doesn't know what I'm going to do, or I do not have free will.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

we can talk about light, and we have the (general) concept of what it is. We can even observe that acts as both particle and wave, but atleast as of yet, that/those properties are beyond our grasp...so is infinity, yet we can "talk" about it.

Light and infinity are not beyond our grasp. Is there anything specifically you would like to know?

EDIT: To make this post more relevant, I would like to debunk the general use of "mysteries that science cannot explain" as an analogy for a god or divinity. It is one thing to talk about holes in scientific theories and another to talk about the existance of gods.

[This message has been edited by Sarter (edited 12-07-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Sarter:

Light and infinity are not beyond our grasp. Is there anything specifically you would like to know?



ya right, you can grasp 'infinity'.. most people dont even realize how big one million is.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



ya right, you can grasp 'infinity'.. most people dont even realize how big one million is.

*sigh*

quote:www.dictionary.com reveals:

in·fin·i·ty ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-fn-t)

n. pl. in·fin·i·ties

1. The quality or condition of being infinite.

2. Unbounded space, time, or quantity.

3. An indefinitely large number or amount.

4. Mathematics. The limit that a function is said to approach at x = a when (x) is larger than any preassigned number for all x sufficiently near a.

Doesn't sound hard to me.

quote:Originally posted by Sarter:

Doesn't sound hard to me.



ok, think what you will, but you can not wrap your mind around infinity...unless you are infinite.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



ok, think what you will, but you can not wrap your mind around infinity...unless you are infinite.

I would certainly have to have a large mind!

But seriously, I cannot count to infinity in increments less than infinity. Perhaps that is the impossible feat you are referring to. However I can certainly grasp the concept of infinity. Humans did, after all, invent the concept.

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

.

When this American educated Indian man went back to India. He taught kids around U.S. military bases. When he would ask the kids where God is, all the american kids would point to the sky, and all the indian kids would point at themselves.

Just an interesting perspective.



Interesting, indeed. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Sarter:

I would certainly have to have a large mind!

But seriously, I cannot count to infinity in increments less than infinity. Perhaps that is the impossible feat you are referring to. However I can certainly grasp the concept of infinity. Humans did, after all, invent the concept.



this is what i was refering to:

QUOTE Originally posted by napoleon_acid:

I think the very fact that we can talk about it proves that it can not exist.

napoleon was talking about God and His attributes.

And (part of) what i said is:

2.we can talk about light, and we have the (general) concept of what it is. We can even observe that acts as both particle and wave, but atleast as of yet, that/those properties are beyond our grasp...so is infinity, yet we can "talk" about it.

Point being:

We can have concepts that exist, while at the same time not be able to grasp it completly

quote:Originally posted by Social Junker:

Interesting, indeed. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)



True, but i would imagine that the difference is the cultures religions and what they believe as God(s). This would influence where their 'homes' would be percieved.

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

So I've been thinking.......

God is love.

One of the only definitions of God in the bible is that, "God is love".

"Love believes all things"

How is it that I always end threads?

Love believes all things........from 1 Cor 13, Paul's view of love.

Technically if someone were to go back in time it would create a parallel universe, and they could never get back to their future because their presence would irrevocably change everything.

instead of being in their own universe, they'd be in a totally different one, and then his almanac would mean shit because there's no guarantee everything would happen the same in this universe. Perhaps his presence would influence some things to make whatever happened in the original universe not happen at all in his new universe.

Get what i'm saying?

Rust, I knew you would post something like that. I knew it because of your previous posts and the way you look at things.

Did my knowing you were going to do it take away your free will in making the post?

Love believes all things........from 1 Cor 13, Paul's view of love.

What do you think he means by this?



Technically if someone were to go back in time it would create a parallel universe,

You already lost me. What is a parallel universe strictly speaking, and how are they created, and how do you know this?

and they could never get back to their future because their presence would irrevocably change everything.

instead of being in their own universe, they'd be in a totally different one, and then his almanac

What almanac are you talking about?

would mean shit because there's no guarantee everything would happen the same in this universe. Perhaps his presence would influence some things to make whatever happened in the original universe not happen at all in his new universe.

Get what i'm saying?

Whose presence? Paul's?



[This message has been edited by bkc (edited 12-08-2004).]

You can not take infinity and ascribe it to anything besides infinity itself. I say this because once you take the concept of infinity and label it, put it into a box, call it "God" so that it God can't be anything but infinite then it is no longer infinite you have given it limitations. When you describe something, especially things such as God, with language what you're really doing is a limiting process of saying what it is not.

You can say these are your cigarettes because they aren't anybody else's cigarettes, nor are they anything but tobacco, filter, etc. You say that you are an athiest because you don't believe in religion. You say you are a christian because you don't believe in any of the religions that aren't christian, and you don't believe in the athiestic notions.

Infinity and God or interesting to this aspect because what is not infinity besides nothing. What is nothing besides an immeasurable amount of no-thing, one could say an infinite amount of no-thing.

It can only describe "God", but it can't be used to describe "God". For it is "God", and beyond all language.

"God is everything" a nifty little cliche nobody cares about because it's a cliche.

It's only a cliche because it's the most sound (and plausible) description of what god might be. If people have heard it over and over till it doesn't mean anything to them any more, then that's their problem, becuase the concept has alot of signifigance.

I find it much harder to believe god is an all powerful indivitual entity. To me, I might as well believe in the x-men.