I'm not quite sure where to put this. It's about a religious theory, so it should go here, really, but I'm sure someone in Mad Scientists could tell me why our physical laws are all neat, and it could go in Humanities, since loads of things can go in there http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) Anyway, read on.

Now, I'm an atheist/possible agnostic, but this gets to me.

Argument by design is a famous argument for God's existence. Anyone not familiar with it, in short it goes like this... The world around us, and everything that is a part of it, is so horrendously complex that it cannot possibly have been chance. Examples include the eye; very, very complicated, yet has apparently evolved many separate times.

Now, I've long believed that a lot of the natural side of this (complex evolution) is possible, and that for every correct eye evolved there will be many things that could have lead to an eye but didn't. Of course, most species like that would have become extinct; light-sensitivity in any form is a huge advantage to creatures trying to survive. Of course, some creatures today survive without eyesight (the Golden Mole (http://www.arkive.org/species/GES/mammals/Neamblysomus_julianae/GES001336.html?size=large) is a particularly cute example http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)), but animals without sight have other sensory mechanisms. Anyway.

I've been thinking about two other things that point to the argument by design theory. The first is the lengths in our body that are the same...

handspan = length of foot, which = distance from inner elbow to wrist.

Armspan = height

Height of head = twice height of torso.

There are others, but I can't be bothered to find them. If anyone knows any particularly obvous ones, tell me, please.

The second is the laws of physics. They all fit together in nice, neat theories, e.g. f=ma, the SUVAT equations, etc, all the stuff you learn in school. Everything goes together neatly. Granted, we haven't found a formula that links all the main forces in the universe (yet), although not for lack of trying, but loads of them are lovely and neat and perfect.

These two things together have got me thinking. It'd be one hell of a coincedence if all those equal lengths in our body just evolved, there's no real point for it, and they don't make any sense. Why is it that the distance between our eyes is the same as the width of our eye, and from eye to ear is another eye-length? Why does our handspan equal our foor-length, what purpose does it serve? Seems like a big coincedence. And the laws of physics. Nice and neat. This equals this times this, always. This divided by this is always this. If these two things collide, this amount of energy is produced. It makes me think.

Then again, it could be a coicedence. Believing in the parallel universe theory, there has to be someone's universe that has those physical laws and coincedences. Really, there are an infinite number that do, although there are a larger number of infinite universes that don't. Incidentally, the concept of 'a larger inifinity' is something I can't get my head around properly, but that's not to do with this. Anway. There must be people thinking 'wow, either we're lucky or there's a God,' and people thinking 'why are all these laws so damn complicated?' or 'I wish we could find a formula linking this and this, or this, this and this.' Has to happen to someone.

So, yeah, that's about it. I'm not too good at writing my ideas in any real order, but hopefully it's all nicely coherent and you can make sense of it. Coincedence? Or proof of God?

It's one thing to shake up a handful of marbles and have them form a perfectly straight line when they come to rest on the ground -- under average circumstances, that would get ME wondering about the existence of God.

But you have to understand that the universe (or, for the sake of maintaining a useful scope, the Earth) is made up of trillions upon trillions of atoms, each moving with a varying degree of randomness and amount of energy.

When you couple that with the fact that the Earth has been around for at least five billion years, even from a purely statistical viewpoint, it's rather likely that these atoms from time to time assemble themselves in some pretty astounding shapes.

It's no proof that God exists, though.

quote:Originally posted by Shiantar:

It's one thing to shake up a handful of marbles and have them form a perfectly straight line when they come to rest on the ground -- under average circumstances, that would get ME wondering about the existence of God.

But you have to understand that the universe (or, for the sake of maintaining a useful scope, the Earth) is made up of trillions upon trillions of atoms, each moving with a varying degree of randomness and amount of energy.

When you couple that with the fact that the Earth has been around for at least five billion years, even from a purely statistical viewpoint, it's rather likely that these atoms from time to time assemble themselves in some pretty astounding shapes.

It's no proof that God exists, though.

i would indeed agree with you

quote:Originally posted by Shiantar:

It's one thing to shake up a handful of marbles and have them form a perfectly straight line when they come to rest on the ground -- under average circumstances, that would get ME wondering about the existence of God.

But you have to understand that the universe (or, for the sake of maintaining a useful scope, the Earth) is made up of trillions upon trillions of atoms, each moving with a varying degree of randomness and amount of energy.

When you couple that with the fact that the Earth has been around for at least five billion years, even from a purely statistical viewpoint, it's rather likely that these atoms from time to time assemble themselves in some pretty astounding shapes.

It's no proof that God exists, though.

Although I agree with that, it's more the nature of the things that gets me thinking. To look at the recurring lengths in the human body, they're not isolated things, they're multiple examples of the same thing in the human body, which is a pretty big coincedence. Agreed, though, I wonder if it occurs in other animals as well, or if we're unique in that regard. And although it's not proof that God exists on its own, it does add strength to creationist theories, in that it seems plausable that God would create things with an order to them. Of course, then you think about everything that DOESN'T have an order to it.

And what about the laws of physics? There's only one set, so to speak, so that would seem to be more of a coincedence.

quote:Originally posted by Mr.Happy:

it seems plausable that God would create things with an order to them. Of course, then you think about everything that DOESN'T have an order to it.

You hit the nail on the head. For every freaky coincidence we notice there are a great many things are not coincidences. Our brain tends to record the things that are more interesting and fixate on them.

quote:Originally posted by Mr.Happy:

And what about the laws of physics? There's only one set, so to speak, so that would seem to be more of a coincedence.

There are often several theories on the same matter. None of them are 'laws' set in stone, but we tend to favor one theory over another. It doesn't usually make sense to have two 'laws' for the same concept. Exception: classical physics is still used even though we know that it is inaccurate with speeds close to the speed of light.

As to the whole "the universe is complex" or "nice and neat" idea, it seems too subjective to prove anything.

The laws of physics fit so neatly together because us, humans, designed them to do so. We notice minor interactions, and design a formula around it. God isn't who created these formulas, it is us. We take something amazingly complex and describe it in terms a good deal of us can understand: math.

quote:Originally posted by Optimus Prime:

The laws of physics fit so neatly together because us, humans, designed them to do so. We notice minor interactions, and design a formula around it. God isn't who created these formulas, it is us. We take something amazingly complex and describe it in terms a good deal of us can understand: math.

It still remains that we CAN design formulae around them, which seems unlikely. Then again, you can find anything if you look hard enough for it.

I believe the main flaw in the teleological argument is the assumption that everything that exhibits order is designed and created, which is not true.

quote:Originally posted by Shiantar:

It's one thing to shake up a handful of marbles and have them form a perfectly straight line when they come to rest on the ground -- under average circumstances, that would get ME wondering about the existence of God.

When you couple that with the fact that the Earth has been around for at least five billion years, even from a purely statistical viewpoint, it's rather likely that these atoms from time to time assemble themselves in some pretty astounding shapes.

Wow, it seems as though just a week or two ago it was only 4 1/2 billion years old... time sure flies.

As to the straight line marbles, once -- ok, but over and over again -- no. Not only that, but with all that 'randomness', those "marbles" would have to hold their "straightness"...