Was having a conversation with this girl about God.

all started out when she said she just got home from church.

her- "i had to go to chruch"

me- "then the idea of GOD has been forced into your head since you were a little kid?"

her- "yeah"

me- "then you can do nothing but agree to it because you don't have your own opinions, but been fed other peoples opinions about god and its been drilled into your head so much that when someone says they dont believe in god you get MAD?"

her- "NO!!!"

me- "what if i told you GOD does not exist?"

her- "he does and i know but i will let you think what you want"

me- "yes since it is my own opinion"

me- "what is your evidence that there is a GOD?"

her- "huh?"

me- "you've ever seen him? talked to you? has he personally answered a prayer of yours? where was he when the twin towers got attacked? why doesn't he help the poor and why does he allow murderers to get away free?"

me- "i believe in something but im not sure its in the bible"

me- "then why do you believe?"

her- "idk"

me- "because you have no other choice but TO believe, you don't have your own opinions"

her- "idk"

me- "it'd be nice if there wsa a god.. but aren't we (as in we're all the same thing, living breathing human beings and are said to be from 1 god) all the same? didn't this so called "GOD" create us all?"

her- "yeah"

me- "i mean, theres billions of people on the planet, look at all the religions we have, seems to me people have their own opinions and this is where religion comes in, looks to me religion is just someones opinion"

me- "if there was a GOD, why isn't there just ONE, a universally accepted GOD since he did create us all, why can't we just believe in 1 god?"

her- "idk"

me- "tell me one good reason why you believe in god"

her- "because think of it this way, how did we all get here?"

me- "how did we all get here? a question that has haunted mankind for eons and eons, this is why someone created GOD.. humans ask too many questions, they have to think their here for a SPECIAL purpose and DO have meaning so someone said HEY since everyone asks where we all came from I'll just say GOD created us and lets just forget how GOD ever was created so we will say he's always existed"

her- "true"

me- "you don't understand and you give no feedback"

her- "i'm sorry i'm only 13 and don't really care about god"

me- "AHH! then why do you GO to church?"

her- "my parents would yell if i didnt"

me- "tell them you're 13 and you really don't care about god"

her- "then they would yell at me"

me- "oh then you can't have your own opinions"

her- "my mom says i should believe in god so i can go to heaven"

this is where it ends .. i mean, do people not have their own opinions? all she could say is "idk", "idk" .. now she says her mom tells her to go to church so she can to heaven. is this the only reason why people go to church, a free ride to heaven?

please feedback, feedback.

Im christian but she clearly dosent belive but mate dont drill it into her that God isnt real...

Ok so some christians take it to far but the have reason to thy want to save you from hell, its an ok cause if you ask me,

Further more i persnoly am from an athiest famley I go to church, and my parents didnt force me ...

it like she had none of her own opinion. then after i told her more things she was like "why did you have to tell me these things, you have me thinking differently now"

quote:Originally posted by OneMulatto:

it like she had none of her own opinion. then after i told her more things she was like "why did you have to tell me these things, you have me thinking differently now"

I completely see your point of view, and I agree with it.

People like her believe in God because theyhave no understanding of their own.

i know it doesn't sound like it, but this is a serious question... does anyone think it's wrong or gross for adolescent boys to perform fellatio (blowjob) on older men?

quote:Originally posted by Eil:

i know it doesn't sound like it, but this is a serious question... does anyone think it's wrong or gross for adolescent boys to perform fellatio (blowjob) on older men?

Yup, wrong.

quote:Originally posted by OneMulatto:

this is where it ends .. i mean, do people not have their own opinions? all she could say is "idk", "idk" .. now she says her mom tells her to go to church so she can to heaven. is this the only reason why people go to church, a free ride to heaven?

what difference does having an opinion of whether God exists or not, make?

He either exists or He doesnt. My belief is that He does. Others believe that He doesnt. Do either of these beliefs cause Him "to be or not to be"? That is the question... (sorry for perverting Bill). Nobody's opinion changes what the truth is.

This is not the the reason that i believe, and i dont think it is a good thing to think "I should believe, just in case". But if He does not exist, have i short-changed myself, for having believed. However, if a person does not believe, and they find out after they die that they were wrong.. well, it is a very high stakes gamble to make. And i think it is a much more terrible thing to talk someone else out of belief.

Anyway, Merry Christmas and God bless.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

[B] what difference does having an opinion of whether God exists or not, make?

It makes a big difference. In 1692 people with the opinion that the bible was god's word went on the infamous witch-hunt. Today

moslem's will kill infidels because of their opinion. I will say this, your opinion of god and his will is okay as long as you are a hypocrite.

quote:He either exists or He doesnt. My belief is that He does. Others believe that He doesnt. Do either of these beliefs cause Him "to be or not to be"? That is the question... (sorry for perverting Bill). Nobody's opinion changes what the truth is.

The real question is whether this god manufactured in your mind is real. These jetsam of ideas put together by you, or other men of honk, honk if you believe in god. Under close scrunity, as always, you

will continue to believe...even though it is never clear what it is you believe exactly...you don't really know what it is you believe, yet you believe and nothing can change that. And the belief is a wide scope: "I believe in god." Whatever that means or is. I believe! I believe! I don't know what it is I believe but I believe.

quote:This is not the the reason that i believe, and i dont think it is a good thing to think "I should believe, just in case". But if He does not exist, have i short-changed myself, for having believed. However, if a person does not believe, and they find out after they die that they were wrong.. well, it is a very high stakes gamble to make. And i think it is a much more terrible thing to talk someone else out of belief.

A cheap reason to believe. Which is more honorable, a blind faith of belief or the strength to doubt and search out the truth?

To blindly believe? or to be willing to burn in hell for the truth?

Any high leaping faith that can easily leap over any fact or reason with the greatest of ease is but a cheap thrill ride. The highest ability of Man is his ability to Reason. Don't disgard it lightly. Skeptism

is always the first armour of defense against foolishness. Don't be afraid to Doubt!

fuck god

Ive tryed evrything, ive looked into Budihsm,satanism,Islam And chrsitianty i see truth in it, im open minded, but i am still faithful i KNOW god exists, hes used me to do things, but by beliving that much, am i foolish?

It's only human nature to ask questions. So, when someone asks, "Where did we come from?", humans will except the simple answer to a complex question which is, God made us.

It really is pathetic how kids adopt their parents beliefs without even sitting down to think about the idea. How could we have made a population of 6 billion (more now) from two humans, Adam and Eve? We can't. You would have incest and the kids will be retarded and the population would die out at around 15. The Bible even states that Adam and Eve had two boys, Cane and Able, while Cane went off and found another women. Umm, I'm at a lose as to where this women came from.

That's just one of the many flaws of the idea of Christianity. Sure, evolution has it's flaws, but it's nothing that we can't fully understand in the future as our technology progresses.

Did you know Christianity wasn't even around until a few hundred B.C.? That's right, someone made it up.

You can argue with a Christian though. They are just a bunch of hypocrits. They argue with us about the origin of the universe but we can just as easily argue with them about the origin of God.

Believe what you want. Religion was only made to make people lead better lives and to make money.

EX: Many religions emphasize the fact that if you are a good person, you will be something better in the next life (Buddhism) or that you will have eternal happyness after death (Christianity). Or vice vera where if you lead a bad life and are a horrible person, you will come back at something worse or burn in hell.

I hope my views have made some opinionless kid think for themselves.

QUOTEOriginally posted by MoonTalker:

It makes a big difference. In 1692 people with the opinion that the bible was god's word went on the infamous witch-hunt. Today

moslem's will kill infidels because of their opinion.

What you are saying is that things matter, but this was not addressing what i said: Opinions are not what causes God to exists or not exist. A belief is not what causes a deity to exist or not exist.

I will say this, your opinion of god and his will is okay as long as you are a hypocrite.

In all honesty, of course i am a hypocrite, as is every person that i have met in my life (and mostlikely, everyone) other than mentally retarded persons and sometimes young children.

The real question is whether this god manufactured in your mind is real.

What i said, that you made this reply to, was, "He either exists or He doesnt." My post was about opinions, not on talking you or anyone else into believing in God.



These jetsam of ideas put together by you, or other men of honk, honk if you believe in god. Under close scrunity, as always, you

will continue to believe...even though it is never clear what it is you believe exactly...you don't really know what it is you believe, yet you believe and nothing can change that. And the belief is a wide scope: "I believe in god." Whatever that means or is. I believe! I believe! I don't know what it is I believe but I believe.

Let me guess: while in school, you did alot of "padding" answers, trying to atleast get some credit for quantity, didn't you? http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:This is not the the reason that i believe, and i dont think it is a good thing to think "I should believe, just in case". But if He does not exist, have i short-changed myself, for having believed. However, if a person does not believe, and they find out after they die that they were wrong.. well, it is a very high stakes gamble to make. And i think it is a much more terrible thing to talk someone else out of belief.



A cheap reason to believe.

Please re-read the part in italics, especially the 3rd word after "quote". I said it was not the reason i believe, and i said that this was not a good reason to believe.

Which is more honorable, a blind faith of belief or the strength to doubt and search out the truth?

Actually, blind faith is better. Less room for doubting your faith. But i do not have this kind. I envy those who do. But there is an disadvantage to blind faith. It tends not to grow much, if at all.



To blindly believe? or to be willing to burn in hell for the truth?

Let's use an illustration to look at what you just said here...

If i told you and your dad, not to pour 'brand X liquid' on your dick because it would burn your dick clean off, and you said to yourself, he might be telling the truth but i'm willing to go through life peckerless just to know for sure if he told me the truth. But your dad decided that it was better to err on the side of caution, so he careful not to pour it in his shorts....

Now, which one of you is more honorable? Neither. In this example, neither your dad's opinion of what i said, nor your opinion matters. The only thing that matters, is whether "brand X liquid" is a penis remover. Your opinion and your dad's opinion does nothing in reguards to the liquid's ability to burn off a wiener.

Any high leaping faith that can easily leap over any fact or reason with the greatest of ease is but a cheap thrill ride. The highest ability of Man is his ability to Reason. Don't disgard it lightly. Skeptism

is always the first armour of defense against foolishness. Don't be afraid to Doubt! /QUOTE

It is funny that so many think that faith is blind. And that so many think that a believer is "burying his head in the sand" and never doubts. Doubt is just comparing what one observes or is told, with what ones beiefs are, and i think almost no believer has not had their share of doubts. When a coubt is reconciled in favor of belief, this is one way that faith grows.

To twist your words: Dont be afraid to believe!!

Originally posted by paintballpunk:

It's only human nature to ask questions. So, when someone asks, "Where did we come from?", humans will except the simple answer to a complex question which is, God made us.

If that is true explain the concept of darwinism and Lamarkism , people will search for other answers, but they wont be the trtuh,

It really is pathetic how kids adopt their parents beliefs without even sitting down to think about the idea.

Both my parents are athists, im christian, and a growing number of christian parents children are becoming athiest, But yeah i agree it is sad,



How could we have made a population of 6 billion (more now) from two humans, Adam and Eve? We can't. You would have incest and the kids will be retarded and the population would die out at around 15.

Ok a man and a woman are in love... ok i wont go into that,

The Bible says that sin corrupts the body, so when dam and eve, were created they were geneticly perct,furthermore macro evoloution means ther is enough variation not to create as much inbreeding, also when people have children the alliales allow varation..

The Bible even states that Adam and Eve had two boys, Cane and Able, while Cane went off and found another women. Umm, I'm at a lose as to where this women came from.

Just beacuse it said they didnt have female children DIDNT MEAN THEY DIDNT HAVE THEM...

That's just one of the many flaws of the idea of Christianity. Sure, evolution has it's flaws, but it's nothing that we can't fully understand in the future as our technology progresses.



And maby as the futre progresses people will stop taking christianty as being rubish look into it an realise "Hey it is quite good"

Did you know Christianity wasn't even around until a few hundred B.C.? That's right, someone made it up.

You know what that is possably the most Retarde thing i have ever heard you sure your not inbred, you can explain that one to me...

You can argue with a Christian though. They are just a bunch of hypocrits.

Its true but arnt all humans,just beacuse were christians dosent meen were perferct...yet



They argue with us about the origin of the universe but we can just as easily argue with them about the origin of God.

You can, you WILL lose but you can

Believe what you want. Religion was only made to make people lead better lives and to make money.

Ok so it was made for people to lead better lives Surly that was a good thing, and as for more money, the majourty of pastors get less money than poele with equal qualifacations, my pastor could be anything he has 2 flipping degrees insted he pastors a small back ally churchi n a small town, so it aint the money hes in it for...

EX: Many religions emphasize the fact that if you are a good person, you will be something better in the next life (Buddhism) or that you will have eternal happyness after death (Christianity). Or vice vera where if you lead a bad life and are a horrible person, you will come back at something worse or burn in hell.

Nope wrong there Christianty sys thatthe only way to hevan is through Jesus, No amount of good deeds will bring salvation

I hope my views have made some opinionless kid think for themselves.

they made me think ...tha your a dumbass



[This message has been edited by madamwench (edited 12-28-2004).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by paintballpunk:

. How could we have made a population of 6 billion (more now) from two humans, Adam and Eve? We can't. You would have incest and the kids will be retarded and the population would die out at around 15. The Bible even states that Adam and Eve had two boys, Cane and Able, while Cane went off and found another women. Umm, I'm at a lose as to where this women came from.

have you read the Bible? Especially the verses about Adam and Eve and Cain and Able (and Seth and Adam had other son's and daughters).

As to inbreeding, during the 6 days of creation, God said, "it is good". Good to God is perfect. So before the first sin that brought disease/death/corruption into the world, mankind's gene pool would not have been corrupted either.

That's just one of the many flaws of the idea of Christianity. Sure, evolution has it's flaws, but it's nothing that we can't fully understand in the future as our technology progresses.

And no one thinks that this is blind faith??

Did you know Christianity wasn't even around until a few hundred B.C.? That's right, someone made it up.

Your wrong.. but that was cute... B.C. stands for Before Christ and Christianity is a religion that believes that the Christ is Jesus, who was born alittle more than 2000 years ago....

gotta leave for work now, ill finish when i get home tonight.

Continued...

QUOTE Originally posted by paintballpunk:

Did you know Christianity wasn't even around until a few hundred B.C.? That's right, someone made it up.

Your wrong.. but that was cute... B.C. stands for Before Christ and Christianity is a religion that believes that the Christ is Jesus, who was born alittle more than 2000 years ago....

....Christianity is the belief that the Jewish prophecies, reguarding the Messiah (Christ) were fulfilled in Jesus.

You can argue with a Christian though. They are just a bunch of hypocrits. They argue with us about the origin of the universe but we can just as easily argue with them about the origin of God.

One way or the other, "something" has been around for eternity. The answer is either God or energy that transformed into matter. The arguement back and forth will go on until the end-times, as neither can be proven by man without God proving it.

Believe what you want. Religion was only made to make people lead better lives and to make money.

Prove it! Prove corruption came before worship.

EX: Many religions emphasize the fact that if you are a good person, you will be something better in the next life (Buddhism) or that you will have eternal happyness after death (Christianity). Or vice vera where if you lead a bad life and are a horrible person, you will come back at something worse or burn in hell.

Christianity teaches that all have sinned and fell short of the Glory of God. It teaches that no one can live a life that is perfect in the judgement of God. And it teaches that Christ is God incarnate and that He has paid the punishment, that He..Himself imposed, for us. And that all we need to do is accept that gift.

I hope my views have made some opinionless kid think for themselves. /QUOTE

Perhaps what you really did, was to make someone think your views. So really, you are doing that thinking for this imaginary kid.

quote:Originally posted by OneMulatto:

Was having a conversation with this girl about God.

all started out when she said she just got home from church.

her- "i had to go to chruch"

me- "then the idea of GOD has been forced into your head since you were a little kid?"

her- "yeah"

me- "then you can do nothing but agree to it because you don't have your own opinions, but been fed other peoples opinions about god and its been drilled into your head so much that when someone says they dont believe in god you get MAD?"

her- "NO!!!"

me- "what if i told you GOD does not exist?"

her- "he does and i know but i will let you think what you want"

me- "yes since it is my own opinion"

me- "what is your evidence that there is a GOD?"

her- "huh?"

me- "you've ever seen him? talked to you? has he personally answered a prayer of yours? where was he when the twin towers got attacked? why doesn't he help the poor and why does he allow murderers to get away free?"

me- "i believe in something but im not sure its in the bible"

me- "then why do you believe?"

her- "idk"

me- "because you have no other choice but TO believe, you don't have your own opinions"

her- "idk"

me- "it'd be nice if there wsa a god.. but aren't we (as in we're all the same thing, living breathing human beings and are said to be from 1 god) all the same? didn't this so called "GOD" create us all?"

her- "yeah"

me- "i mean, theres billions of people on the planet, look at all the religions we have, seems to me people have their own opinions and this is where religion comes in, looks to me religion is just someones opinion"

me- "if there was a GOD, why isn't there just ONE, a universally accepted GOD since he did create us all, why can't we just believe in 1 god?"

her- "idk"

me- "tell me one good reason why you believe in god"

her- "because think of it this way, how did we all get here?"

me- "how did we all get here? a question that has haunted mankind for eons and eons, this is why someone created GOD.. humans ask too many questions, they have to think their here for a SPECIAL purpose and DO have meaning so someone said HEY since everyone asks where we all came from I'll just say GOD created us and lets just forget how GOD ever was created so we will say he's always existed"

her- "true"

me- "you don't understand and you give no feedback"

her- "i'm sorry i'm only 13 and don't really care about god"

me- "AHH! then why do you GO to church?"

her- "my parents would yell if i didnt"

me- "tell them you're 13 and you really don't care about god"

her- "then they would yell at me"

me- "oh then you can't have your own opinions"

her- "my mom says i should believe in god so i can go to heaven"

this is where it ends .. i mean, do people not have their own opinions? all she could say is "idk", "idk" .. now she says her mom tells her to go to church so she can to heaven. is this the only reason why people go to church, a free ride to heaven?

please feedback, feedback.



Okie Dokey, you're retarted.

You're just as bad as those so called 'hypocritical christians who try to force their religion down other people's throats'.

The fact that you're trying to shove your opinion down this thirteen year old girls throat is blatantly hypocritical.

You end your post with <<i mean, do people not have their own opinions? all she could say is "idk", "idk" .. now she says her mom tells her to go to church so she can to heaven. is this the only reason why people go to church, a free ride to heaven?>>

i mean, are you retarted? You had an argument with a THIRTEEN YEAR OLD. I dare you to get into an argument with a hardened adult christian and post that, or for anyone who has a strongly based belief in god.

The fact of the matter is, she might haven't of known shit, but neither do you.

Then you come on here posting this bullshit, saying 'please feedback feedback', thinkin you're going to get a pat on the back, and a ton of people backing you on this.

Fuck that. And fuck the haters on here too who can somehow dismiss everything, preaching skepticism, doubt, and reason! when they have not understood, studied, or experienced anything.

quote:Originally posted by paintballpunk:

It's only human nature to ask questions. So, when someone asks, "Where did we come from?", humans will except the simple answer to a complex question which is, God made us.

What about the most logical answer?

quote:It really is pathetic how kids adopt their parents beliefs without even sitting down to think about the idea. How could we have made a population of 6 billion (more now) from two humans, Adam and Eve? We can't. You would have incest and the kids will be retarded and the population would die out at around 15. The Bible even states that Adam and Eve had two boys, Cane and Able, while Cane went off and found another women. Umm, I'm at a lose as to where this women came from.

That's just one of the many flaws of the idea of Christianity. Sure, evolution has it's flaws, but it's nothing that we can't fully understand in the future as our technology progresses.

Well if you take it in a literal sense then it doesn't make sense, but if you take the creation story as a parable then you would realize that it is just an extended way of saying that God created everything. He didn't just go out and create humans, he created the universe which in turn created galaxies which in turn create planets which in turn create life.

quote:Did you know Christianity wasn't even around until a few hundred B.C.? That's right, someone made it up.

Did you know atheism wasn't thought of until a few thousand years ago? That must mean it isn't real.

I didn't expect any kind of "pat" on the back and for people to back me on this. I just wanted opinions on what people thought.

I wasn't "forcing" my opinions down her throat just bringing to light what she never thought of. She told me "you're making me think a little different now", I wasn't saying "THERE IS NO GOD! YOU'RE A DUMB BITCH!! LISTEN TO ME THERE IS NO GOD" I was just shedding light on a different thought process.

I tend to think of believing in God this way:

I was raised Christain and I was "saved" before i could even comprehend the very notion. I have been rasied memorizing verses and being told story after story. I have never really questionsed the existance of God... in My mind he does exist and must exist. But lets say he didnt... what harm would come with being a christain... with having a sense of closure on the death of loved ones, (that is if they were "saved") or overall leading a moral and compassionate life... if God is real then we all go to heaven... if he isnt, then we really havent wasted too much energy (unless your a monk or missionary ect) Howeve. since i have come of age I have not harbored everything that I have been brainwashed into thinking since I was a preschooler. I try to keep an open mind towards opinions and other beliefs. Ultimately I view religion as being Child-like... I cannot help this it has been evaluated as a part of my personality. I dont wave my hands or sing to Jesus... i simply have the feeling that there is 1. a higherpower 2. he/she/it left some guidence 3. There is an after-life these are the things i know for sure and with out any doubt... all other beliefs and teachings are not completely concrete (except for the belief in Jesus)

I see why so many people are annoyed by the Jesus Freaks... I dont blame them... those who dont have any logic in them... they only restate what they are told or what they read in the bible... trust me ive been to Church Camp... I tried explaining the concept that Islam worhips the same God we do... getting a contrary idea through 99% of all christains is almost impossible. I made even more of them angry when i tried to explain Natural Selection and how some of Darwins theories were correct. Well this pretty much made me the most unpopular person in my little "study group" most of whom knew nothing about any other religion other than "they are wrong and are going to burn in hell".

So for all you atheists and members of other religions... go on believe what you want... i dont think its should be the job of us to go around "saving" others... if there is God and he loves every one like the Bible says I can imagine he will not cast those who do not know him into an eternity of torment and pain...that just wouldnt be logical.

P.S. trying saying anything like this in a Youth groups or Christain dicussion... if you wish to see how ignorant most christains are.

quote:Originally posted by drBOX:

Okie Dokey, you're retarted.

You're just as bad as those so called 'hypocritical christians who try to force their religion down other people's throats'.

The fact that you're trying to shove your opinion down this thirteen year old girls throat is blatantly hypocritical.



Fantastic.

Red i agree with you, I personly am a newly saved christian, and its true i do go to a very loud evangelical church, i do goto church camps, and i do argue with my leaders, but rember the death of jesus was the greatest gift mankind has ever recived.

The death of the son of God so we could have life, was so powerful i cant blaim people when they get excited and joyful, and its true leadfers in the church need to know about other relgions, if only otsee where they fail.

I can see the good side in almost all relgions... but the question is, am I your advrige christian.

{sorry for the spelling its realy bad i know}

quote:Originally posted by drBOX:

Okie Dokey, you're retarted.

You're just as bad as those so called 'hypocritical christians who try to force their religion down other people's throats'.

The fact that you're trying to shove your opinion down this thirteen year old girls throat is blatantly hypocritical.

You end your post with <<i mean, do people not have their own opinions? all she could say is "idk", "idk" .. now she says her mom tells her to go to church so she can to heaven. is this the only reason why people go to church, a free ride to heaven?>>

i mean, are you retarted? You had an argument with a THIRTEEN YEAR OLD. I dare you to get into an argument with a hardened adult christian and post that, or for anyone who has a strongly based belief in god.

The fact of the matter is, she might haven't of known shit, but neither do you.

Then you come on here posting this bullshit, saying 'please feedback feedback', thinkin you're going to get a pat on the back, and a ton of people backing you on this.

Fuck that. And fuck the haters on here too who can somehow dismiss everything, preaching skepticism, doubt, and reason! when they have not understood, studied, or experienced anything.



You sure showed him!

quote:Originally posted by drBOX:

Okie Dokey, you're retarted.

You're just as bad as those so called 'hypocritical christians who try to force their religion down other people's throats'.

The fact that you're trying to shove your opinion down this thirteen year old girls throat is blatantly hypocritical.



Glad you pointed that out, drBOX, as well as the remainder of your post.

There are sooo many of those...

I didn't quite understand everyone's arguement's against me because of the overall setup and many grammar mistakes.

So I will take the arguments that I remembered and thought worthwhile to argue over off the top of my head.

---

You say I'm a dumbass.

*sigh* Denial is one of the first human defences.

---

You say that Atheists can argue about the origin of God, but we WILL lose.

*sigh again* This is exactly what I've been saying about hypocritical Christians. Here's my argument to that. "You can argue about the origin of the universe, but you WILL lose."

---

You never actually stated that Christianity was around for all time. Jesus was just another man that everyone thought was a messiah. Unfortunately, someone just made a pretty little story about a virgin mary, oh, but wait! How can she be a virgin if Jesus had an older brother? Yet another flaw.

---

I forgot all your other arguments because they were worthless and not worth my time. If you want to continue arguing, please take it up with some dumbass who doesn't care.

I'm shocked by how intolerant Christians are toward other religions. I'm not pushing my beliefs on anyone. I'm merely stating what I believe and I have Christians left and right calling me and dumbass. How immature.

As for your argument about just believing in Jesus and you will go to heaven, you're correct but you should see how much your religion is being changed by the people who preach it. You go to any youth group or church group or whatever, and they preach garbage about how if you drink, you will go to hell. If you smoke marijauan, you will go to hell. If you murder, you will go to hell. Of course it's all to scare the kids but shouldn't it scare the preacher that he's giving false facts?

Whatever, believe what you want. This forum isn't even worth comming by anymore because no one, it seems, is open-minded. All them being narrow-minded, ingonorant twits.

And yes, I used to be a Christian but truely thought the religion was garbage and dumped it. Am I going to hell? You bet ya.

Now I hope you all have a nice day. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) Goodbye.

Bravo, paintballpunk.

For madamwench and xtreem5150ahm: http://www.totse.com/en/conspiracy/mind_control/thoughtsincapt173964.html

quote:Originally posted by redoctober:

I tend to think of believing in God this way:

I was raised Christain and I was "saved" before i could even comprehend the very notion. I have been rasied memorizing verses and being told story after story. I have never really questionsed the existance of God... in My mind he does exist and must exist. But lets say he didnt... what harm would come with being a christain... with having a sense of closure on the death of loved ones, (that is if they were "saved") or overall leading a moral and compassionate life... if God is real then we all go to heaven... if he isnt, then we really havent wasted too much energy (unless your a monk or missionary ect) Howeve. since i have come of age I have not harbored everything that I have been brainwashed into thinking since I was a preschooler. I try to keep an open mind towards opinions and other beliefs. Ultimately I view religion as being Child-like... I cannot help this it has been evaluated as a part of my personality. I dont wave my hands or sing to Jesus... i simply have the feeling that there is 1. a higherpower 2. he/she/it left some guidence 3. There is an after-life these are the things i know for sure and with out any doubt... all other beliefs and teachings are not completely concrete (except for the belief in Jesus)

I see why so many people are annoyed by the Jesus Freaks... I dont blame them... those who dont have any logic in them... they only restate what they are told or what they read in the bible... trust me ive been to Church Camp... I tried explaining the concept that Islam worhips the same God we do... getting a contrary idea through 99% of all christains is almost impossible. I made even more of them angry when i tried to explain Natural Selection and how some of Darwins theories were correct. Well this pretty much made me the most unpopular person in my little "study group" most of whom knew nothing about any other religion other than "they are wrong and are going to burn in hell".

So for all you atheists and members of other religions... go on believe what you want... i dont think its should be the job of us to go around "saving" others... if there is God and he loves every one like the Bible says I can imagine he will not cast those who do not know him into an eternity of torment and pain...that just wouldnt be logical.

P.S. trying saying anything like this in a Youth groups or Christain dicussion... if you wish to see how ignorant most christains are.

That's essentially Pascal's Wager. Look it up.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by paintballpunk:

[B]I didn't quite understand everyone's arguement's against me because of the overall setup and many grammar mistakes.

So I will take the arguments that I remembered and thought worthwhile to argue over off the top of my head.

---

You say I'm a dumbass.

*sigh* Denial is one of the first human defences.

---[QUOTE]

so you deny your a dumbass...

[QUOTE]

You say that Atheists can argue about the origin of God, but we WILL lose.

*sigh again* This is exactly what I've been saying about hypocritical Christians. Here's my argument to that. "You can argue about the origin of the universe, but you WILL lose."

[QUOTE]



the reason i said that is god is real and he is very much alive,... i can try toargue againtt gravty ll i want its still real.

[QUOTE]

You never actually stated that Christianity was around for all time. Jesus was just another man that everyone thought was a messiah. Unfortunately, someone just made a pretty little story about a virgin mary, oh, but wait! How can she be a virgin if Jesus had an older brother? Yet another flaw.[QUOTE]



James was jesus's younger brother... also christianty hasnt been arounfd all the time it was formed by jesus based of judaisim.

---



I'm shocked by how intolerant Christians are toward other religions. I'm not pushing my beliefs on anyone. I'm merely stating what I believe and I have Christians left and right calling me and dumbass. How immature.

[QUOTE]

actaully im the only one who called you a dumbass, and i apoligise it was out of order,but understastand that i have a right to express my views, but when christians do it "we shove ot down your throats"

Further more im tolrant ot other relgions i have freinds who vary form wicca to muslims to mormons...

[QUOTE]

As for your argument about just believing in Jesus and you will go to heaven, you're correct but you should see how much your religion is being changed by the people who preach it. You go to any youth group or church group or whatever, and they preach garbage about how if you drink, you will go to hell. If you smoke marijauan, you will go to hell. If you murder, you will go to hell. Of course it's all to scare the kids but shouldn't it scare the preacher that he's giving false facts? [QUOTE]

Actually hes not all those things you said were sins and sin sepperates us from god. so he wasnt changing the truth.

[QUOTE]

Whatever, believe what you want. This forum isn't even worth comming by anymore because no one, it seems, is open-minded. All them being narrow-minded, ingonorant twits.[QUOTE]



theres a diffrant between that and being firm in your belifs.

[QUOTE]

And yes, I used to be a Christian but truely thought the religion was garbage and dumped it. [QUOTE]

thats a shame ill pray for you...

[QUOTE]

Am I going to hell? You bet ya.[QUOTE] actually you once saved always saved you cant lose salvation...

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

"I should believe, just in case". But if He does not exist, have i short-changed myself, for having believed. However, if a person does not believe, and they find out after they die that they were wrong.. well, it is a very high stakes gamble to make. Anyway, Merry Christmas and God bless.

We'll you're not going to heaven, because you're not 100% faitful to god. Because you even think about the possibility of what if.

I was christian about 2 months ago, strong christian. But over time I've learned gods an egotistical saddist. IF he exists, were all his play toys. Please, arque with me, I'm pretty certain I can prove any point wrong (thats in favour of God). Being a Christian meant often defending my religion, so now I've argued both sides. Again, I urge you, to in some way provide a thread of evidence that god is real.

how about the fact that ive seen mircales done... the fact that mircales have been done to me, the fact that god has told me to do RADICAL THINGS and they have worked out, the complexty of the universe, his preasance,the changes in my lifesince ive known him...

Thats what made me leave christianty. IF this did all happen to you. Then why you? why not every one. God loves us all. Well I hate christians so much as of recent. My mum (really strong christian) thinks that she can now speak tounges (some ancient language of god)...impossible. God doesnt just teach people things over night.

Ok heres just one of my arguments against god: If got knows all, and has forseen our lives outcomes. So that means, he knows whats going to happen through out our entire life. That means, that its predetermined. Becuase it's been forseen. Therefore we cannot change anything.

Also: If you want i can get the chapter and shit, but god once says that he gave us the gift of free will. Well...that basically means he cannot effect our lives. I've been told he can effect a christians life because they allow him to. Well this is a hypothetical here: Just say some one, has been worshipping god for so long. They're very strong christians, and they always pray. Then one day god answers their prayer (to have a better job) now this guy gets a new job, and god effected his life, because he allowed god to. Now this guy becoms some peoples boss. And hes a really strict boss, not an ass, but very to the books. He makes his empoyees lifes alot harder. Did those people ask to be affected by god? He didnt directly affect them, but inderectly he did. Christianity contradicts itself too much...

Now, I can handle a debate...prove me wrong by all means, make me "beleive in god again"...pffft..

To be truthful i dont know why it happned ot me i realy dont, but it has ahappned to other people it hapens all over the world, true maney are staged but the ydo happen, i know of people who were cured of aids, who had lukemia...

God can do what ever the hell he likes, if he can make he world in 6 days he can teach us somthing over night... also havnt you lernt anything over night...



"Ok heres just one of my arguments against god: If got knows all, and has forseen our lives outcomes. So that means, he knows whats going to happen through out our entire life. That means, that its predetermined. Becuase it's been forseen. Therefore we cannot change anything."

Ok ive seen Blackhawk down hundrads of times i can talk along i know all the words ( i dont but its an example) but just beacus i know whats going to happen it dosent meen i can effect it ... Just eacuse god knows it going to happen he wont change it

...

"Also: If you want i can get the chapter and shit, but god once says that he gave us the gift of free will. "

he did

"Well...that basically means he cannot effect our lives. "

no he can... he can intervine with our freewill if he wants to, he dosent but if he wants/needs to he can, he can also affect the mindirectly as you state later.



"I've been told he can effect a christians life because they allow him to. Well this is a hypothetical here: Just say some one, has been worshipping god for so long. They're very strong christians, and they always pray. Then one day god answers their prayer (to have a better job) now this guy gets a new job, and god effected his life, because he allowed god to. Now this guy becoms some peoples boss. And hes a really strict boss, not an ass, but very to the books. He makes his empoyees lifes alot harder. Did those people ask to be affected by god?"

AS you said its hypothetical... furthermore it could have been other things other thatn god that got hm the job, and if all hes doing is following the "book" is he doing wrong...



He didnt directly affect them, but inderectly he did. Christianity contradicts itself too much...

those can be explained...

"Now, I can handle a debate...prove me wrong by all means, make me "beleive in god again"...pffft.."

I cant make you belive in god, i can explain errors and show you the way but i cant make you...free will my freind...

Ok ive seen Blackhawk down hundrads of times i can talk along i know all the words ( i dont but its an example) but just beacus i know whats going to happen it dosent meen i can effect it ... Just eacuse god knows it going to happen he wont change it

But if god knows whats going to happen, then our lives are predetermined...nothing we can do will suprise him, and he already knows the outcome of our lives.

"Also: If you want i can get the chapter and shit, but god once says that he gave us the gift of free will. "

he did

Yes thats true...he did

no he can... he can intervine with our freewill if he wants to, he dosent but if he wants/needs to he can, he can also affect the mindirectly as you state later.

If he even so much as breathes on us...he has taken away our gift. He cannot in ANY way intervien in our lives other wise he desecrates the gift of free will. Thats why I see it as: christians pray for things in the false hope that they come true. If they do, why for them and not for others. Does he favour some people more than other even though he says he loves us all equally?

AS you said its hypothetical... furthermore it could have been other things other thatn god that got hm the job, and if all hes doing is following the "book" is he doing wrong...

He's doing nothing wrong, its just that he has affected our lives, and by doing that taken away free will.

Well, I read something just a while ago i'll just explain it a little bit. It was several thousand contradictions in the bible. Now, some of them weren't very strong arguments, just differenced between testaments. But some of the differences made no sense, like when things were retold, the were different, I dont see how past events changed between testaments if this makes sense. And heres one I do remember, I will quote and get verses for you if you wish, but i'll just go off the top of my head.

And god made a covenent with man, that they may eat all flesh, as long as it has the life blood drained out of it.

Then god goes back on his word and says:

God made strict rules about what, and what not man could eat.

God brings in alot of new things we have to take into account.

Any way I can list some contradictions if you want.

The bible is divine word (the word of god) then why does it have mistakes? Sure it was written by people, but wouldn't just tell the people they made a mistake in his holy book, rather than leave it there for people to read until the second coming of jesus?

And lastly, about the afterlife. God loves us so much yet he's willing to let us be tortured for eternity in hell? If i loved some one with all my heart, i mean ALL my hear (like what god has) then even if they denied my existance I would still want them to be happy.

And now on heaven, If heaven is the perfect place, then does every one live in a different heaven? I'd like mine to have motorcross, snowboarding and computers. But i really doubt an 80 year old would want all thise things...the motorbikes would be too noisy? So how can we all be in this "perfect" afterlife....together?

Sorry for the long post, and thanks for your seriousness and not getting flamed.

Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

"I should believe, just in case". But if He does not exist, have i short-changed myself, for having believed. However, if a person does not believe, and they find out after they die that they were wrong.. well, it is a very high stakes gamble to make. Anyway, Merry Christmas and God bless.

We'll you're not going to heaven, because you're not 100% faitful to god. Because you even think about the possibility of what if.

I was christian about 2 months ago, strong christian. But over time I've learned gods an egotistical saddist. IF he exists, were all his play toys. Please, arque with me, I'm pretty certain I can prove any point wrong (thats in favour of God). Being a Christian meant often defending my religion, so now I've argued both sides. Again, I urge you, to in some way provide a thread of evidence that god is real.

First, let me say that i am not here for the sake of arguement... i am a sower and a serf.

Second, when you quoted my post, you left out a part that changed the meaning 180 degrees... the part you left out said "This is not the the reason that i believe, and i dont think it is a good thing to think..."I should believe, just in case"

What i said has no bearing on my belief in God, i was pointing out a way that some people attitude (no i didnt leave out a word,re-read until you understand.) toward God. Whether i go to heaven or not is up to God's judgement, not human understanding.

You name me one other person, besides Jesus the Christ, who has 100% faith. Jesus said that if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you can make fig trees wither, command mountains to toss themselves into the sea, and greater things than these. Having Faith is a gift from God, and Faith is a growing process.

arquin, you said you were a strong Christian, about two months ago. You said that over time (2 months?), you have learned that "gods an egotistical saddist." This does not sound as though you were very strong in Faith. It sounds as though you are not relying on Faith, but rather on fallible man's understanding. That does not sound as though you were strong in Faith.

Please, arque with me, I'm pretty certain I can prove any point wrong (thats in favour of God). Being a Christian meant often defending my religion, so now I've argued both sides. Again, I urge you, to in some way provide a thread of evidence that god is real.

Since i am not here for the purpose of arguing, i will (somewhat) refer you to God's word.

I say "somewhat" because i am not going to tell you what chapter/verse to look, but in the Old Testement, God says that there is one test that He will allow us to test Him for us to know His existence.

Happy searching. God Bless.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by arquin:

Well I hate christians so much as of recent. My mum (really strong christian) thinks that she can now speak tounges (some ancient language of god)...impossible. God doesnt just teach people things over night.

Although i am a bit skeptical of most claims of people "speaking in tongues", why is it impossible? In God, all things are possible. But scripture also tells us that speaking in tongues requires someone to interpret. And it also says that when speaking in tongues, it should be done one at a time, and i've noticed that many times it is many "tongues" speaking at once, with no interpretation.

Also: If you want i can get the chapter and shit, but god once says that he gave us the gift of free will.

ok, show the book/chapter/verse. I am quite certain that the concept of freewill is from understanding the scripture, not from direct verbetim of the Word of God. I would love to see it.

This is very much the same as the concept of the Trinity. The Bible does not come right out and say, "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" in one (or several) spots. It teaches this from several different verses that point to this understanding.

Now, I can handle a debate...prove me wrong by all means, make me "beleive in god again"...pffft..

No human can make another to believe in God. That is the Holy Spirit's "job" through "agreement" between the person and God.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



Your point by point meandering is just about as senseless as your belief.

Faith...

1) a firm belief in something for which there is no proof.

2)belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion.

3)without doubt or question.

3 qualities a naive religious serf like you must have in abundance.

Your "Truth" requires no proof. All it requires is some misguided belief or faith.

If you required a few facts as the example of your burning off the penis truth, your religion would vanish also.

A simpleton might believe the absurd without any proof. That is foolishness.

The wise will look for proof of a thing. That is more honorable.

You have no valid reason to believe the absurdity of any religion. It is all rumor.

You were told, they were told, and you're now telling us the nonsense. You don't have any proof, you don't require any proof, just a little blind faith in the absurd.

Don't be afraid to believe any absurdity you hear?

Or don't be afraid to doubt any absurdity?

The choice is yours.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



I say "somewhat" because i am not going to tell you what chapter/verse to look, but in the Old Testement, God says that there is one test that He will allow us to test Him for us to know His existence.

Happy searching. God Bless.



Any "Test for God" that you are referring to must require a dimwitted conclusion...much like the test for whether it is really god's word or not: If it comes to pass, it was god's word. If it doesn't come to pass, it was not god's word.

Myself, I prefer the "Test by Water."

quote:Originally posted by MoonTalker:

Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



Your point by point meandering is just about as senseless as your belief.

Faith...

1) a firm belief in something for which there is no proof.

2)belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion.

3)without doubt or question.

3 qualities a naive religious serf like you must have in abundance.

Your "Truth" requires no proof. All it requires is some misguided belief or faith.

If you required a few facts as the example of your burning off the penis truth, your religion would vanish also.

A simpleton might believe the absurd without any proof. That is foolishness.

The wise will look for proof of a thing. That is more honorable.

You have no valid reason to believe the absurdity of any religion. It is all rumor.

You were told, they were told, and you're now telling us the nonsense. You don't have any proof, you don't require any proof, just a little blind faith in the absurd.

Don't be afraid to believe any absurdity you hear?

Or don't be afraid to doubt any absurdity?

The choice is yours.

You talk about proof, but you offer none.

You asked, "Which is more honorable, a blind faith of belief or the strength to doubt and search out the truth?". My point with the brand X liquid was that neither was more honorable than the other, but that the opinion whether it was true (or false), was not what would cause the statement about "brand X" to be true (or false).

BTW, you have no idea of my life, nor how my faith came to be, nor do you know how my faith has grown (because i know i have not shared either of these with anyone on TOTSE, but it is the reason that i said blind-faith is better). So, really, you have no idea whether i have blind faith or not. You do not even know, to what extent my faith has grown. This is something that i share only face to face.

quote:Originally posted by MoonTalker:

Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



I say "somewhat" because i am not going to tell you what chapter/verse to look, but in the Old Testement, God says that there is one test that He will allow us to test Him for us to know His existence.

Happy searching. God Bless.



Any "Test for God" that you are referring to must require a dimwitted conclusion...much like the test for whether it is really god's word or not: If it comes to pass, it was god's word. If it doesn't come to pass, it was not god's word.

Myself, I prefer the "Test by Water."





Nice try, but no... keep searching.

if you really wanna see if theres a god then why dont ya'll just blow ur brains out.seems simple enough to me

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

Jesus said that if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you can make fig trees wither, command mountains to toss themselves into the sea, and greater things than these.

[/B]

Since when? I've never seen God do any thing. If he is real, he has abandoned us. I had faith "the size of a mustard seed" and I couldn't do jack shit what jesus described. I don't care even if he is speaking metaphorically, because we cannot accomplish great things (as great as he describes) off of a thread of faith.

As for the verses:

Genesis 9:3-4 God makes a covenant with Noah: Mankind will

be permitted to eat the flesh of any living creature, as long as

the blood is drained.

Deuteronomy 14:7-20 God goes back on his word.

--------------------------------------------

Genesis 11:1,6-9 In the days of Babel, generations after the

Flood, the world had one common language. God "confused the

tongues" to create many.

Genesis 10:5 Prior to this. the Bible speaks of many

"nations", each with its own language.

--------------------------------------------

Isaiah 53:2 It is sometimes God's will to crush people

or to cause them to suffer.

Lamentations 3:33 Yet, God does not willingly cause

grief or affliction.

--------------------------------------------

Genesis 23:1 God tempted Abraham.

James 1:13 God tempts no one.

--------------------------------------------

Genesis 9:3-4 God makes a covenant with Noah: Mankind will

be permitted to eat the flesh of any living creature, as long as

the blood is drained.

Leviticus 3:17, 11:1-47 God gave many rules about what

may be eaten or handled.

--------------------------------------------

Ok so maybe the people God was speaking to made mistakes. But im certain that a God who sees all and knows all, would have seen the mistakes and corrected them...for it was mans mistake when writing. But no...he didn't...I'll tell you why? The bible is fictional, it's was just written by people who needed something to beleive in to make their lives meaningful. What they came up with was God.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

You talk about proof, but you offer none.

It is any claim of an absurdity that demands the proof.

Don't get confused. Brand X liquid has nothing to do with anything. The first post I replied to, you suggested "Opinions" didn't matter. I know a man's opinions are linked to his actions. They do matter. What do you know about "Truth"? Truth deals with facts and proof. A truth is a proved fact.

"Jesus is coming soon and that's the truth,"

is an opinion. Not a truth!

If your mythical faith is based on the bible then you've already shared more than enough. And you don't even know what it is exactly that you believe.

It's stupid to think that a god could be cajoled to benefit you. And that's the point of any religion...of the bible. Do this and god will bless you, do that and he will curse you. Go flatter your god with false promises. Flatter yourself even.

And again, you have no "Test for God" that would not depend upon a weak dimwitted conclusion. Bring out the non-proof.

The bible is a book that has myth mixed with some history. It is a book where the writers heard rumors and wrote them as facts.

If you think the earth spinning around at over 1000 miles per hour abruptly stopped, spun backwards 10 degrees, and then took off again at 1000 miles per hour while the Israelites kept right on fighting...but hey,

even they thought the sun revolved around the earth and the earth stood still, what's your excuse?

quote:Originally posted by MoonTalker:

What do you know about "Truth"? Truth deals with facts and proof. A truth is a proved fact.



Nothing is really true or correct. Everything that is labelled a fact is simply a globally accepted view of the world.

I’ve had many debates with people about religion in the past, and I agree with the atheism/agnostic points of view.

In a debate, whenever the other person is like, "Well if god didn't create the world, then what or who did?” My response is, "I don't know but how can you prove it was god?” There response would be, “How can u prove it wasn’t god?”

The definition of the word “prove” is to establish the authenticity of. I don’t believe that one can establish the authenticity of god, so in my opinion there is no correct answer to the questions. I could say something like I believe that nothing happens after one dies, they’re just dead, or I could say one will either go to haven or hell. I don’t know what will really happen, and I don’t believe one could prove what happens after one dies.

Believes are just opinions to me. Ideas of Christianity, Islam, Judaism and any other religions out there are just opinions on how one should live. So what’s the point of debating once it is discovered that no one really knows any solid proofs? I obviously believe there is no point.

I suggest you look up FATIMA and the "Miracle of the Sun" Or read the book "The Devils Final Battle" Very interesting and it may change your opinion of disbelief in God.

Nonexistant

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

mankind's gene pool would not have been corrupted either.

What. a. load. of. bullshit.

'corrupted'?

What is this, the plot to Diablo II?

The human race can't have been started by 2 people. First off incest does go against the bible. Sencondly, http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif) I'm goning to be here for a while explaining why the Bible is a Book Insinuating Belligerent Lying Everywhere, aren't I?

Here:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html

Disprove every last one of these contradictions, and I might even think about listening to any more pro-Christian arguements.

everyone read this: http://www.totse.com/en/ego/self_improvement/thefactsofreal170983.html

quote:Originally posted by The_Reckoning:

What. a. load. of. bullshit.

'corrupted'?

What is this, the plot to Diablo II?

The human race can't have been started by 2 people. First off incest does go against the bible. Sencondly, http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif) I'm goning to be here for a while explaining why the Bible is a Book Insinuating Belligerent Lying Everywhere, aren't I?

Here:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html

Disprove every last one of these contradictions, and I might even think about listening to any more pro-Christian arguements.

Ill start on them right away ...

by the way how do you wnat them answwred shall I email you them.

[This message has been edited by madamwench (edited 01-04-2005).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by arquin:

Since when? I've never seen God do any thing. If he is real, he has abandoned us.

"If you wish to know God, you must know His Word. If you wish to percieve His power, you must see how He works by His Word. If you wish to know His purpose before it comes to pass, you can only discover it by His Word." Charles Spurgeon

I had faith "the size of a mustard seed" and I couldn't do jack shit what jesus described.

Then there are only 2 possibilities. Either you did not have that much faith, or Jesus lied... it wasnt metaphorically, either. If you asked ten thousand men of clergy if they have that much faith, i would bet that more than 95% would believe it as literal but probably none would say that they have that much faith.

As for the verses:

Genesis 9:3-4 God makes a covenant with Noah: Mankind will

be permitted to eat the flesh of any living creature, as long as

the blood is drained.

Deuteronomy 14:7-20 God goes back on his word.

Did God really go back on His Word, or did He raise His standards that He wanted His people to live up to?

I started out with going through these words with Literal Translation and Strong's Numbers. It was a mess. Hard even for me to understand what i was writing, so i re-looked at what you wrote, and the verses in Genesis 9... I do not know Hebrew, so i hope i dont screw this up too much, that being said, let's look together...

Gen 9:3-4 (American Standard Version)

3. Every moving thing that liveth shall be food for you. As the green herb have I given you all.

4. But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

Verse 4 is not talking about draining the blood, it is saying dont eat it while it is alive. There is more to it than this... the word "flesh" (basar) also means (by euphem.) the pudenda of a man. Pudenda is external genital organs. The word right after "basar" is "nephesh". One of the meanings is "animal of (abstractly) vitality", and two of the translations of "nephesh" are "lust" and "pleasure". Right after "nephesh" is the word "dam" which means "blood (as that which when shed causes death) of man or an animal; by analogy, the juice of the grape; figuratively (especially in the plural) bloodshed (i.e. drops of blood):" Which is probably where you understood it as draining of blood, which maybe partly true. But it seems as though the words also indicate what parts not to eat. I would like to read a theologen's view on this, as well as Jewish commentary.

Deuteronomy 14:1-20 (ASV)

1. Ye are the children of Jehovah your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead.

2. For thou art a holy people unto Jehovah thy God, and Jehovah hath chosen thee to be a people for his own possession, above all peoples that are upon the face of the earth.

3. Thou shalt not eat any abominable thing.

4. These are the beasts which ye may eat: the ox, the sheep, and the goat,

5. the hart, and the gazelle, and the roebuck, and the wild goat, and the pygarg, and the antelope, and the chamois.

6. And every beast that parteth the hoof, and hath the hoof cloven in two, and cheweth the cud, among the beasts, that may ye eat.

7. Nevertheless these ye shall not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that have the hoof cloven: the camel, and the hare, and the coney; because they chew the cud but part not the hoof, they are unclean unto you.

8. And the swine, because he parteth the hoof but cheweth not the cud, he is unclean unto you: of their flesh ye shall not eat, and their carcasses ye shall not touch.

9. These ye may eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales may ye eat;

10. and whatsoever hath not fins and scales ye shall not eat; it is unclean unto you.

11. Of all clean birds ye may eat.

12. But these are they of which ye shall not eat: the eagle, and the gier-eagle, and the ospray,

13. and the glede, and the falcon, and the kite after its kind,

14. and every raven after its kind,

15. and the ostrich, and the night-hawk, and the sea-mew, and the hawk after its kind,

16. the little owl, and the great owl, and the horned owl,

17. and the pelican, and the vulture, and the cormorant,

18. and the stork, and the heron after its kind, and the hoopoe, and the bat.

19. And all winged creeping things are unclean unto you: they shall not be eaten.

20. Of all clean birds ye may eat.

21. Ye shall not eat of anything that dieth of itself: thou mayest give it unto the sojourner that is within thy gates, that he may eat it; or thou mayest sell it unto a foreigner: for thou art a holy people unto Jehovah thy God. Thou shalt not boil a kid in its mother's milk.

The word "beasts" in vs. 4 (bhemah) means 'properly, a dumb beast; especially any large quadruped or animal (often collective)'.

Verses 6 and 7, (just mentioning this as an "interesting" sidelight)

can eat = split hoof AND cud chewing

can not eat = one or the other..if it only has either split hoof or cud chewing, but does not have both

Also of interesting note, in verse 2, it says that Mose and company are Holy to the Lord. Holy, according to http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=holy

:

1. Belonging to, derived from, or associated with a divine power; sacred.

2. Regarded with or worthy of worship or veneration; revered: a holy book.

3. Living according to a strict or highly moral religious or spiritual system; saintly: a holy person.

4. Specified or set apart for a religious purpose: a holy place.

5. Solemnly undertaken; sacrosanct: a holy pledge.

6. Regarded as deserving special respect or reverence: The pursuit of peace is our holiest quest.

7. Informal. Used as an intensive: raised holy hell over the mischief their children did.

But in verse 21. Ye shall not eat of anything that dieth of itself: thou mayest give it unto the sojourner that is within thy gates, that he may eat it; or thou mayest sell it unto a foreigner: for thou art a holy people unto Jehovah thy God. Thou shalt not boil a kid in its mother's milk.

So, the children of God can not eat something that died on its own, but they can give it to a foreigner.

These two things would indicate that the rules for the Jews have something to do with being "set apart"..holy.

Remember, Abram (Later,Abraham) was a decendant of Noah. And Abraham was the one that was promised to have decendants innumerable. They werent called God's people until Abraham, and Moses came after Abraham.

That's enough for now, i'm getting tired.

Raised Standards? What do you think?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MoonTalker:

The first post I replied to, you suggested "Opinions" didn't matter. I know a man's opinions are linked to his actions. They do matter.

Opinions do not matter in terms of causing God to exist or not exist. Your opinion that God does not exist, does not cause Him to not exist. My opinion that He exists, is not the cause of His existence. He either exists or not, our opinion does not matter in reference to the causing of existence.

The "brand X" was to point out that (your statement) "Which is more honorable, a blind faith of belief or the strength to doubt and search out the truth?" that neither was more or less honorable in and of itself. And to point out that (your statement again) "To blindly believe? or to be willing to burn in hell for the truth?" is an awful big gamble. But you have made the assumption that i (and all Christians) blindly believe and am/are not searching for the truth. Some blindly believe, others search. But with blindly believing, they are actually symbolized in the "brand X" example, by the dad. By blindly believing, they are risking nothing.



What do you know about "Truth"?

http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

Truth deals with facts and proof. A truth is a proved fact.

So, in other words, you agree with what i said... "Nobody's opinion changes what the truth is". In fact, that was the statement that you got all huffy about truth. You also mentioned "proof" as if your "truth" has proofs, but again, you still have shown none.

Even the topic starter was talking of opinions and beliefs. And i think i was talking about opinions (whether they matter or not) and belief... (and thats the truth pptthhff.... oh wait, most of TOTSE is too young to know, let alone remember that. It was from laugh in).

"Jesus is coming soon and that's the truth,"

is an opinion. Not a truth!

No, (for arguements sake) could be either, truth or opinion.

And you don't even know what it is exactly that you believe.

What? Again with no proof?

It's stupid to think that a god could be cajoled to benefit you. And that's the point of any religion...of the bible.

Proof please.

Flatter yourself even.

<<in my best SnaggleTooth voice>> Heavens to mer ga troid, even. LOL Thats ok if you all are too young... I thought that was funny LOL

And again, you have no "Test for God" that would not depend upon a weak dimwitted conclusion. Bring out the non-proof.

No, you look for it. It's there, in the little ol' Old Testement.

The bible is a book that has myth mixed with some history. It is a book where the writers heard rumors and wrote them as facts.

Proof?

If you think the earth spinning around at over 1000 miles per hour abruptly stopped, spun backwards 10 degrees, and then took off again at 1000 miles per hour while the Israelites kept right on fighting...

Well, i'm going to rely on faith on this one. But if God can create everything in 6 days, He sure would be able do that. Not any harder for Him than keeping you from believing.



but hey,

even they thought the sun revolved around the earth and the earth stood still, what's your excuse?

It's getting late so i'm not going to look it up (and i dont know off the top of my head whether Job was before or after the 10 degrees thing) But 4,000 or more years ago, it was written,

"Job 38:12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days began, And caused the dayspring to know its place;"

AND

"Job 38:14 It is changed as clay under the seal; And all things stand forth as a garment:"

The picture here is of a clay vessel being turned or rotated upon the potter's wheel.

At a time when it was believed that the earth sat on a large animal or a giant (1500 b.c.), the Word spoke of the earth's free float in space:

Job 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over empty space, And hangeth the earth upon nothing.

Sorry, but this one is after the "10 degrees" but it is from "the book of myths" ...

Luke 17:34-36

34. I say unto you, in that night there shall be two men on one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35. There shall be two women grinding together; the one shall taken, and the other shall be left.

36. [There shall be two men in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.]

Do you see it? During the Second coming of Jesus Christ, some are asleep at night and others are working at daytime activities in the field. Revolving earth, with day and night at the the same time??

May God Bless your search. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

QUOTE Originally posted by The_Reckoning:

What. a. load. of. bullshit.

'corrupted'?

What is this, the plot to Diablo II?

The human race can't have been started by 2 people. First off incest does go against the bible.

When God created, He said it was good. Good to God would be perfect from our POV. Sin brought suffering/death/destruction into the world. So yes, corrupted. If the gene pool had started out as perfect, then corrupted by sin, wouldnt it take some time to have any "copying errors" that would amount to much? So incest would have been a very minor factor for many generations.

Incest was not verboten while Adam and Eve had other sons and daughters. So there is no reason that "The human race can't have been started by 2 people."

Sencondly, I'm goning to be here for a while explaining why the Bible is a Book Insinuating Belligerent Lying Everywhere, aren't I?

You've got some 'splaining' to do...

Here:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html

Disprove every last one of these contradictions, and I might even think about listening to any more pro-Christian arguements

Let's start with one, and i'll let you choose it.

^^Bump^^