Is it ok to have an image of jesus, mother and child, mary, etc, and use incense and candles in worship? is it ok to burn a white candle whilst praying, can you burn a candle(s) and insence whilst praying with an image of jesus/mother and child/mery etc there?

yes, that's perfectly acceptable. I sometimes light a couple candles and burn incence when I pray.

some may say it's not because maybe its to ritualistic or idolizing, but anything that helps you focus, and any symbolism...there's nothing wrong with that

I think pictures are bad. If you're praying to the candle, i think that's probably bad too. If you're praying and just light the candle for asthetic value, there's nothing wrong with that.

The whole point is that you're not praying to an icon. The more it resembles greek worship of idols, the worse it is. Now that i think of it, the Catholic praying to saints is a bit like praying to the greek gods. Each saint is supposed to have certain "abilities" or whatever.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

I think pictures are bad. If you're praying to the candle, i think that's probably bad too. If you're praying and just light the candle for asthetic value, there's nothing wrong with that.

The whole point is that you're not praying to an icon. The more it resembles greek worship of idols, the worse it is. Now that i think of it, the Catholic praying to saints is a bit like praying to the greek gods. Each saint is supposed to have certain "abilities" or whatever.

Yes, if you're not praying to the icon but using it as a symbol sort of to focus on who you're praying to. Catholic praying to saints is really nothing like praying to Greek gods. Saints don't have any "abilities" more that any one else.

One could use a picture to help inspire prayer or to help one remember one just who and what they are being thankful for. Focusing one's prayers actually towards a picture, that would be wrong. but using a picture during the course of prayer is ok.

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

Catholic praying to saints is really nothing like praying to Greek gods. Saints don't have any "abilities" more that any one else.

Don't you need to do a few miricles before and after you are dead to be a saint?

Yes, but its really God doing the miracles through someone with enough faith for that to happen

Are you asking Digital Saviour for permission or are you asking if christians think it's okay to use these practices. Because obviously they do, since they use them. And if you're asking DS for permission - why?

Cheers,

Lost

Is it just me or has diggie been AWOL for a minute.

Perhaps she took a holiday vacation.

why would it matter? would jesus get angery and send you to hell for using the wrong scent/brand of candle/insence? that is, if there actually was a hell of course http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Digital Saviour has alot of knowledge on scripture and is a pretty good authority on christianity so I thought she might know if this is acceptable or not. Basically I want to use candles and incense because I like the idea. The insence helps for you to accept the holy spirit in your body because your breathing in the airs. The candles are for ascetic value and focus. The picture is also for the asthetic value and obviously I'm not praying to IT -- I meant having a picture of jesus, or something to that effect.

As for the catholic of praying to saints.

It says in the bible its pretty much useless. Mary also seems to be like a mediator between you and the father when the only mediator between you and the father is meant to be the son (jesus). Praying to the dead -- well some catholics do pray to those who have passed on, like my father who says he speaks to his brother in his heart who has passed on. In the bible it does say that necromancy is not allowed and that the dead know nothing -- but those who have been saved have eternal life, they are not the dead. This is also in the old testament when there was no real concept of heaven or eternal life, just 'sheol', the grave or death.

I'd like to hear what D-S thinks about this, but i suspect she would pretty much agree with me. We are both protestants although i don't know what denomination she follows.

What you are describing sounds more catholic or "catholic-influenced". I find many of catholicism's conventions to be unbiblical. Also, your reasons for using incense are a bit skewed to me. Don't you know that the holy spirit lives inside you? You don't get the holy spirit by breathing him in deeply. The holy spirit becomes a part of you when you accept Christ.

theBishop

I may be an atheist, but I'm a former Christian who read TONS of scripture.

Are you familiar with the iconoclast movements of Europe? Groups of fervent protestants were destroying imagery and symbols (icons) of all forms across Europe as to disallow even the temptation of idolatry. However, if you are praying to IHVH, and using the icon as something to help you focus on your thoughts, it's not idolatry. The problem is though, the human mind is rather visual...using an icon to help you focus will almost assuredly lead to having the icon in your thoughts while you pray, actually distracting most people.

Incense and candles...not a single verse in the Bible, nor any of the Judaic-only texts I have read warn Christians from scents and lighting.

However, on my first paragraph, Christ's death was a complete abolishment of Judaic law (This includes the 10 Commandments). Upon his death and ressurection, the only sin is to deny the glory and love of IHVH. From there on, it's really a matter of intentions rather than actions, and with the complete love and salvation of IHVH in your heart, supposedly no intentions are impure, and with the guidance of IHVH, your actions will not falter either.

catholic prayer to the dead is like asking a living person to pray for you.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

The holy spirit becomes a part of you when you accept Christ.

theBishop

So I guess children who die before they are old enough to understand the concept of a divine being let alone accept them into their hearts, are headed for a bad place. You think?



[This message has been edited by Nemisis (edited 01-02-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

I'd like to hear what D-S thinks about this, but i suspect she would pretty much agree with me. We are both protestants although i don't know what denomination she follows.

What you are describing sounds more catholic or "catholic-influenced". I find many of catholicism's conventions to be unbiblical. Also, your reasons for using incense are a bit skewed to me. Don't you know that the holy spirit lives inside you? You don't get the holy spirit by breathing him in deeply. The holy spirit becomes a part of you when you accept Christ.

theBishop

Eh, I'm pretty sure she'd call herself a "non-denomenational christian".

quote:Originally posted by Nemisis:

So I guess children who die before they are old enough to understand the concept of a divine being let alone accept them into their hearts, are headed for a bad place. You think?





I think what Bishop meant was that if we do not deny the holy spirit, it will dwell within. Children are incapable of denying anything, so the holy spirit would dwell within, just at it dwells within those who have not seen the choice between acceptance and denial of Christ. Without the choice, there is no denial, so the spirit dwells within if the host is capable.

regardless, incense are not going to change your relationship towards the holy spirit.

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

Is it just me or has diggie been AWOL for a minute.

Perhaps she took a holiday vacation.

She posted in a abortion thread a while back, that's the last time I saw her.

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

Is it just me or has diggie been AWOL for a minute.

Perhaps she took a holiday vacation.



I think she said that she was recovering from surgery or something... hope she's ok. Cant speak for anyone else, but i miss her...

I think that i read somewhere that AOL wont work for totse anymore, maybe she has AOL and can not get on anymore.

Bishop: By saying "The holy spirit becomes a part of you when you accept Christ." Do you mean accept that Jesus is God or Jesus is the Messiah or what?

Does this mean every pre-Christ figure in the Bible didn't have the holy spirit within them?

Doesn't that mean the NT has no solid foundations whatsoever as it denies the divinity of the Pentateuch?

Shuu: Perhaps you should ask your religious authority and not some people on the net who might not even be the same denomination as you?

And you want candles for "ascetic" purposes?

I thought ascetic meant 'A person who renounces material comforts and leads a life of austere self-discipline, especially as an act of religious devotion.', and so did dictionary.com. Therefore, WTF?

But you say the pictures are for "asthetic" value. Because they look pretty? Are you trying to pray to God or go to an art museum?

"Mary also seems to be like a mediator between you and the father" - There's a living God who will talk DIRECTLY FUCKING TO YOU. - Bill Hicks

Hex: "Children are incapable of denying anything" - What the fuck? So they always accept what they are told? DO YOU HAVE ANY CHILDREN!?

"Christ's death was a complete abolishment of Judaic law" - Then Jesus was the antichrist. (This isn't a dig at Christianity. If there is no Judaic law there is no line of Jewish kings. Jewish kings were the annointed ones, ANNOINTED ONE(english) = MESSIAH(hebrew) = CHRIST(greek), therefore if Jesus did this he is not the Messiah and Christianity is fucked.)

EDIT: I did this at 1.38, I better get some damn good replies come morning :P

[This message has been edited by Aphelion Corona (edited 01-03-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

I think what Bishop meant was that if we do not deny the holy spirit, it will dwell within. Children are incapable of denying anything, so the holy spirit would dwell within, just at it dwells within those who have not seen the choice between acceptance and denial of Christ. Without the choice, there is no denial, so the spirit dwells within if the host is capable.

The reason I posted that was because it reminded me of something I heard once. I can't remember where I heard it, but someone once said that unbaptised babies wont go to heaven.

I believe they are supposed to go to pergatory, not heaven.

quote:Originally posted by shuu-returns:

Is it ok to have an image of jesus, mother and child, mary, etc, and use incense and candles in worship? is it ok to burn a white candle whilst praying, can you burn a candle(s) and insence whilst praying with an image of jesus/mother and child/mery etc there?



i've seen where allot of churches have candels but inscence is wierd but whatever. The rastifarians sure have a thing for "inscence"

quote:Originally posted by shuu-returns:

Is it ok to have an image of jesus, mother and child, mary, etc, and use incense and candles in worship? is it ok to burn a white candle whilst praying, can you burn a candle(s) and insence whilst praying with an image of jesus/mother and child/mery etc there?

The image of Jesus is not so important as the perception of Jesus.

Mary shouldn't even be a part of the picture, if you have read the Christian Bible with any kind of discernment.

Anyway, Jesus' physical body is of no consequence to us, as it had nothing to do with our salvation.

Prayer is the finest form of worship in God's eyes, and preayer doesn't require an image.

You can use incense and candles if you'd like, but again: they bear no significance to your relationship with Christ.

As long as the images and candles do not present themselves as religious objects, then you're ok.

Otherwise, it is considered idolatry. (graven images, etc.)

Hope that helps...thanks for asking an honest question. It was refreshing.

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

yes, that's perfectly acceptable. I sometimes light a couple candles and burn incence when I pray.

some may say it's not because maybe its to ritualistic or idolizing, but anything that helps you focus, and any symbolism...there's nothing wrong with that

To a Catholic, it's acceptable.

Try and simplify your relationship with God, Z. It's hard enough without all that other garbage getting in the way.

It IS ritualistic, and God speaks directly against that.

He is also opposed to idolatry of any sort, which worshipping Mary clearly is.

God will help you concentrate on Him during prayer, if you ask Him to.

It is just that simple.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

I think pictures are bad. If you're praying to the candle, i think that's probably bad too. If you're praying and just light the candle for asthetic value, there's nothing wrong with that.

The whole point is that you're not praying to an icon. The more it resembles greek worship of idols, the worse it is. Now that i think of it, the Catholic praying to saints is a bit like praying to the greek gods. Each saint is supposed to have certain "abilities" or whatever.

Amen !

Awesome, Bishop.

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:

Are you asking Digital Saviour for permission or are you asking if christians think it's okay to use these practices. Because obviously they do, since they use them. And if you're asking DS for permission - why?

Cheers,

Lost

Dude, don't ever ask me for permission on anything ! *LOL*

I can't handle that kind of responsibility, and would never want to.

Also, "christians" don't use images and candles and such to worship.

You can see candles at specific services (such as a Christmas Eve service), but as Bishop pointed out, it is only for asthetic purposes.

Specific religions, such as Catholicism use candles and images, but that is not to be confused with Christianity.

You can be a Catholic, AND be a Christian. However, they are exclusive of each other. (if that makes any sense)

Just as Mormonism and Christianity are exclusive, though you can be both at the same time (if you'd like to be a misguided Christian, that is !)

I have tried to explain the difference between religion and Christianity, but have yet to be successful.

Anyway, how are ya ? *smiles*

quote:Originally posted by Clifford the Big Red Bong:

why would it matter? would jesus get angery and send you to hell for using the wrong scent/brand of candle/insence? that is, if there actually was a hell of course http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

You don't go to Hell for idolatry.

You sin if you commit idolatry.

If you are already saved, then it doesn't affect your salvation, only the success of your Christian walk.

quote:Originally posted by shuu-returns:

Digital Saviour has alot of knowledge on scripture and is a pretty good authority on christianity so I thought she might know if this is acceptable or not. Basically I want to use candles and incense because I like the idea. The insence helps for you to accept the holy spirit in your body because your breathing in the airs. The candles are for ascetic value and focus. The picture is also for the asthetic value and obviously I'm not praying to IT -- I meant having a picture of jesus, or something to that effect.

As for the catholic of praying to saints.

It says in the bible its pretty much useless. Mary also seems to be like a mediator between you and the father when the only mediator between you and the father is meant to be the son (jesus). Praying to the dead -- well some catholics do pray to those who have passed on, like my father who says he speaks to his brother in his heart who has passed on. In the bible it does say that necromancy is not allowed and that the dead know nothing -- but those who have been saved have eternal life, they are not the dead. This is also in the old testament when there was no real concept of heaven or eternal life, just 'sheol', the grave or death.

I'm sorry, hon...the incense does NOTHING except smell good.

If you would like to use it as a relaxation tool in order to have a more intimate prayer session with God, cool.

But realize that it does nothing spiritually.

Since no one knows what Jesus really looked like, and he has been misrepresented largely in American culture as an effeminate white guy (HELLO ! He was a Jew ! He was probably almost black back then), I would say that no image of him will do you any good.

Again, the image is insignificant. The perception of him is all that matters.

You are correct about Mary.

Thanks for considering my understanding of the Bible...I am humbled.

God bless you and keep you, friend !

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

catholic prayer to the dead is like asking a living person to pray for you.

Can you give some scripture that advocates your claim ?

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



I think she said that she was recovering from surgery or something... hope she's ok. Cant speak for anyone else, but i miss her...

I think that i read somewhere that AOL wont work for totse anymore, maybe she has AOL and can not get on anymore.

Oh, my...that was so sweet.

You're a doll, Xtreem.

Missed you too, kid.

How ya been ?

it's not really a catholic issue. If someone is not so touchy about anything that seems catholic, they might want to have an image of Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, some symbolism. its not idolatry, i'm sorry, its not really garbage, and God doesn't speak against useful ritualism, he speaks against ritualism to impress people. But, I guess the Jews never had any rituals...and a lot of its symbolism



if someone by some amazing stretch of the imagination could think that someone in heaven could know what was going on on earth, it may make sense to believe that they could hear our requests for prayer. And the millinia(sp) of tradition...

and tell me where in the bible it says a doctrine has to be in the bible to be true. Where is that doctrine in the Bible

. Prayers for the Dead

Tobit 12:12;* 2 Macc 12:39-45; 1 Cor 15:29; 2 Tim 1:16-18.

------------------------------------------------------------

B. Dead Saints Are Aware of Earthly Affairs

Mt 22:30 w/ Lk 15:7,10 & 1 Cor 4:9; Heb 12:1.

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C. Dead Saints Intercede For Those On Earth

Jer 15:1; 2 Macc 15:14; Rev 6:9-10.

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D. Intercessory Mediation of Saints and Angels

Tobit 12:12-15; Rev 5:8 and 8:3-4.

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E. Dead Saints Appear On Earth to Interact With Men

1 Sam 28:12-15 with Ecclesiasticus 46:20; 2 Macc 15:13-16; Mt 17:1-3 and 27:50-53; Rev 11:3.

------------------------------------------------------------

F. Guardian Angels

Ps 34:7; 91:11; Mt 18:10; Acts 12:15; Heb 1:14.

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G. Angels Are Aware of Our Thoughts

Lk 15:10; 1 Cor 4:9.

------------------------------------------------------------

H. Angels Participate In the Giving of God's Grace

Rev 1:4.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

To a Catholic, it's acceptable.

Try and simplify your relationship with God, Z. It's hard enough without all that other garbage getting in the way.

It IS ritualistic, and God speaks directly against that.

He is also opposed to idolatry of any sort, which worshipping Mary clearly is.

God will help you concentrate on Him during prayer, if you ask Him to.

It is just that simple.

It isn't ritualistic because it doesn't have to be done, using that is just a personal preference of the person when praying, not a requirement when praying(which would make it ritualistic).

And if you worship the physical being of Mary, then yes that would be idolotry, but that would be looking at that from too literal of a viewpoint. If you look at it like Catholics are worshipping what Mary stood for, and the essence and goodness that she bestowed upon the world, then it isn't at all idolistic.

What you consider garbage, others consider comforting or relaxing. Using that stuff is just personal preference, it is in no way ritualistic or invokes idolatry.

Pictures of Jesus and Mary could be used to inspire faith, to make people remember what they did for humanity. In no way do catholics actually worship the pictures of Jesus and Mary.

Its an interesting point napoleon. However, if you believe in the bible, the bible seems pretty clear that there's no way to justify praying to saints or to mary.

If people find it has merit in their lives in some way, it should be some other religion. I don't even really think that would count as a "sect" because sects generally agree on some basic principles of the faith, and the worship of Mary isn't one of them.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

Its an interesting point napoleon. However, if you believe in the bible, the bible seems pretty clear that there's no way to justify praying to saints or to mary.

If people find it has merit in their lives in some way, it should be some other religion. I don't even really think that would count as a "sect" because sects generally agree on some basic principles of the faith, and the worship of Mary isn't one of them.

Well if you accept the catholic church and the power in the catholic church, then it is ok to pray to Mary or saints.

Why is it so bad to pray to exemplary people? People who sacraficed everything to make the world a better place, not just for catholics, but for people in general? I mean if people pray to saints and look up to saints to image their lives after those saints, wouldn't the world end up being a better place? I mean the actions of saints are just the actions of god. It is just God acting through people. They're aren't god incarnate, but more like the writers of the scripture. They have the power and will of god within them, therfore what they do is the actions of god. Exactly like scripture is the word of god.