So...

I am sure you have all noticed my complete disappearance from the halls of Totse as of late.

Here's what has happened:

My wallet was stolen. Had to close all my accounts, and open new accounts. Had to wait two weeks for new bank cards (you can't imagine how annoying it is not to be able to pay with plastic !). My payroll department screwed up my updated account information, so I didn't get my paycheck until 5 days after it was due. I have an infant, so diapers and formula are necessities, and they wait for NO direct deposit !

Ok, so you are saying to yourself, "That's not so bad. Quit whining. And what the hell does this have to do with religious debate, anyway ?"

I'm getting to that...patience, Daniel-san.

2 days after my wallet was stolen, someone totalled my only family vehicle while we were inside Red Lobster having dinner. It was during a terrible snow storm, so there weren't any witnesses, and neither the Red Lobster or the Olive Garden next door have camera's in their parking lots.

I owed $11,500 on my loan for that car, and my insurance company decided that they were only going to pay for $4,100 of the loan.

I get to pay for a phantom car for the next two years.

As I mentioned in previous posts, I had a surgery not too long ago to get rid of my endometriosis, which has been plaguing me since I hit puberty.

The surgery went fine, but two weeks ago, I had a cyst rupture on my uterus. My back felt as though it had been tenderized by a 2x4.

Since I work at a hospital, I figured I had gotten the flu from someone...but after seeing my GYN I found out differently.

At the same time, I came down with sinusitis and strep throat.

I have been bed ridden ever since.

I didn't have a car, I didn't have a paycheck, and I was on my deathbed.

So...

My question to all of you, Christians and non-Christians alike, is this:

Was God responsible for all of my trials ?

Is there some deeper meaning, or ultimate purpose, for my suffering that will somehow teach me how to be a better Christian ?

Or is it simply circumstance; the events unfortunate in their closeness in proximity ?

I am not saying what I believe it all to be at this point. I am not even sure I have decided.

Suffice it to say that there have been extraordinary occurances along the way, that have reminded me of His presence, and that ultimately He is in control of all things.

Whether He was directly involved or not...remains to be determined.

Thanks in advance for your input.

Good to see you all again. I hope your holidays have been wonderful, and that I am given the time to be here more often.

In conclusion: God has to exist, because you've being fucked over so hard that there has to be some supernatural masochist at work.

Such blatant diversion of standard operating procedure into a realm of constant misfortune is inconcievable without some form of high-level approval.

I have to reevaluate my lack of religious beliefs now. Maltheism is beginning to look like a logically tenable position.

To paraphrase William Paley (Natural Theology), if you're walking along and find a finely crafted Iron Maiden, with fresh blood stains on it, no less, do you suppose it was put together by chance, or an Intelligent Designer?

[This message has been edited by Dark_Magneto (edited 01-04-2005).]

Judgement Day.

Good to see you back, I assume everything's going better since you're back.

Happy Last Year.

quote:Originally posted by Dark_Magneto:

In conclusion: God has to exist, because you've being fucked over so hard that there has to be some supernatural masochist at work.



Or maybe you just want to believe that it was god because that is the only reason you can supply or know the most about; that doesn’t essentially mean that it was the "true" reason.

Anyhow, Digital_Savior, sorry for your misfortune; may many better things come your way in the future.

See what happens when you beleive in god. He has forsaken you.

Good to see you, as always Digital.

I am assuming that the questions were inserted as an excuse to keep this thread in MGCBTshit.

Anyways, hope you get better and all that business.

(p.s. Am still waiting for your testimony, if you don't wanna make a public thread about it, my email is siviL125@hotmail.com)

I see no good reason why the Christian god(if it exists) didn't choose to start the universe in a way that wouldn't end up with all that shit happening to you.

Really, the only reason I can think of that this shit has happened to you if the Christian god exists is that it wants it to have happened to you. It's simple. If it didn't want this to happen to you, it wouldn't. This sort of thing is trivial to an omnipotent being.

I guess you could now retreat to the unknown purpose defense but I think that it just doesn't fly with unbelievers.

Consider a bear that's stuck in a trap(those things that clamp on your leg when you step in them). A hunter chances upon it and decides to help it out. To do so though, the hunter has to first shoot the bear with a tranquilizer dart to get it to sleep so the hunter can remove the trap. The bear gets hit by the dart and feels the pain, thinking that the hunter is actually trying to hurt it without knowing that the hunter has good intentions ultimately. In terms of understanding then, are we humans unlike the bear and the Christian god unlike the hunter? Yet, until we know what the ultimate good reason is, is it not reasonable for us to be suspicious?

So yeah, I see the problem of suffering as a good way to show that it's unlikely that the loving Christian god exists. I'm sure that whatever it wants to achieve(apart fro your suffering), it can do it without all this shit happening to you and everyone in the world.

Depends if God plays an active roll in the day to day happenings on Earth.

I think universe can pretty much run itself and I doubt God bothers with people much except when they are being born or dying. From time to time he might provide knowledge or guidence to an idividual to benifit a larger group but otherwise ignore us. A person would have to be pretty special for God to take single out one person for testing/punishment or anything else.

[This message has been edited by MasterPython (edited 01-04-2005).]

Well, I think that just by choosing the starting conditions of the universe is enough. With omniscience, the Christian god could see how the universe would unfold and apparently, this course of events is what it foresaw and wanted to happen.

If it didn't want Digital_Savior to suffer like that, it would've just chosen to create another universe where things unfold differently.

quote:Originally posted by Dark_Magneto:

In conclusion: God has to exist, because you've being fucked over so hard that there has to be some supernatural masochist at work.

Such blatant diversion of standard operating procedure into a realm of constant misfortune is inconcievable without some form of high-level approval.

I have to reevaluate my lack of religious beliefs now. Maltheism is beginning to look like a logically tenable position.

To paraphrase William Paley (Natural Theology), if you're walking along and find a finely crafted Iron Maiden, with fresh blood stains on it, no less, do you suppose it was put together by chance, or an Intelligent Designer?



I wasn't presenting a post that would even remotely prove or disprove the existence of God.

I believe He exists. My post was based on that fact.

It doesn't matter whether you believe in Him or not. That is not the purpose of the post.

If you can't answer the questions asked directly, don't participate. You are wasting space.

If you don't believe in God, then you cannot answer the questions I asked with any kind of authority.

I also said, "Christians, and non-Christians alike." By "non-Christian" I did not mean people who do not believe in God. There are several religions that believe in God besides Christianity.

This thread is directed towards those people, and was in no way meant to prove God's existence.

Hush, angry child.

quote:Originally posted by ASH_shop_S-mart:

See what happens when you beleive in god. He has forsaken you.

Bad things happen to everyone.

I have been extremely misunderstood, once again.

Reading with objectivity comes in handy sometimes, people.

I wasn't accusing God of causing my pain and suffering.

I was asking if those who do believe in God think that may be possible.

And if not, why ?

*sighs*

quote:Originally posted by R_I:

I see no good reason why the Christian god(if it exists) didn't choose to start the universe in a way that wouldn't end up with all that shit happening to you.

Really, the only reason I can think of that this shit has happened to you if the Christian god exists is that it wants it to have happened to you. It's simple. If it didn't want this to happen to you, it wouldn't. This sort of thing is trivial to an omnipotent being.

I guess you could now retreat to the unknown purpose defense but I think that it just doesn't fly with unbelievers.

Consider a bear that's stuck in a trap(those things that clamp on your leg when you step in them). A hunter chances upon it and decides to help it out. To do so though, the hunter has to first shoot the bear with a tranquilizer dart to get it to sleep so the hunter can remove the trap. The bear gets hit by the dart and feels the pain, thinking that the hunter is actually trying to hurt it without knowing that the hunter has good intentions ultimately. In terms of understanding then, are we humans unlike the bear and the Christian god unlike the hunter? Yet, until we know what the ultimate good reason is, is it not reasonable for us to be suspicious?

So yeah, I see the problem of suffering as a good way to show that it's unlikely that the loving Christian god exists. I'm sure that whatever it wants to achieve(apart fro your suffering), it can do it without all this shit happening to you and everyone in the world.

Again, I wasn't stating that my suffering proved God's existence in any way, shape or form.

I know He exists.

Thanks for your input, though...the bear analogy was good.

I don't think that the bad occurances which happen to us take place because wants them to, necessarily. As a Christian, it is my nature to believe that much of the pain in our world is caused by sin, which we choose to participate in.

While some things may occur for a greater purpose, it is difficult to determine which do and which don't, until much later down the line, when hindsight is a luxury.

I am not yet to a point where I can look back and say, "Yes, that had a purpose regarding my walk as a Christian.", or "No, that was just crappy luck."

So, I asked those that would understand the workings of God (to the best of our ability) what they thought about that.

Thanks again for your reply.

quote:Originally posted by MasterPython:

Depends if God plays an active roll in the day to day happenings on Earth.

I think universe can pretty much run itself and I doubt God bothers with people much except when they are being born or dying. From time to time he might provide knowledge or guidence to an idividual to benifit a larger group but otherwise ignore us. A person would have to be pretty special for God to take single out one person for testing/punishment or anything else.



Why would God ignore His creation ?

quote:Originally posted by R_I:

Well, I think that just by choosing the starting conditions of the universe is enough. With omniscience, the Christian god could see how the universe would unfold and apparently, this course of events is what it foresaw and wanted to happen.

If it didn't want Digital_Savior to suffer like that, it would've just chosen to create another universe where things unfold differently.

But there is a distinct difference between creating a series of events to happen just as you want them to (provided you have that sort of power), and being the creator and knowing what will happen to your creation until it ends.

My questions have yet to be answered using the format in which they were written.

Guys, please try and read it again.

Thank you !

quote:Originally posted by I_Like_Traffic_Lights:

Judgement Day.

Good to see you back, I assume everything's going better since you're back.

Happy Last Year.

Hi, darlin' !

How have things been for you ? Hope your holidays were relaxing.

Things are "stable". I'll leave it at that.

Thanks for the well wishes...care to try and answer my questions ?

I'd appreciate your viewpoint.

*huggles*

quote:Originally posted by Aczar:

Or maybe you just want to believe that it was god because that is the only reason you can supply or know the most about; that doesn’t essentially mean that it was the "true" reason.

Anyhow, Digital_Savior, sorry for your misfortune; may many better things come your way in the future.

Thank you. That was very sweet.

I have to say that I certainly hope I at least get a BREAK !

I don't want to believe anything in particular...I simply want to understand why these things may have happened, so that I can come to terms with it all, and move on with my life.

As with all things that have happened to me, I will know their purpose later.

I just wanted to see what everyone else thought about my (or their own) sufferings.

Thanks for the post !

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

Good to see you, as always Digital.

I am assuming that the questions were inserted as an excuse to keep this thread in MGCBTshit.

Anyways, hope you get better and all that business.

(p.s. Am still waiting for your testimony, if you don't wanna make a public thread about it, my email is siviL125@hotmail.com)

*LAUGHS*

No, I actually wanted answers to those questions, Tribe. *winks*

Thanks for the "hope". *smiles*

How was your Christmas ? Are you still battling your Catholic teacher ?

And sorry sorry sorry I haven't composed that testimony yet.

As you can see, I've been through a lot lately. :-(

I will TRY and get it to you soon.

Statistically, it had to be someone.

HAHAHAHA

Karma. Everything is connected, nothing happens without a cause.

PS-Welcome back, Digi, http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) glad to hear that you're regainig your health. Winter's rough.

[This message has been edited by Social Junker (edited 01-05-2005).]

If there is a God, I don't think he did this to punish you. Maybe just random horrible luck? Unless you've comitted a terrible deed, then I see no reason as to why this is a punishment...

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Why would God ignore His creation ?

He probably isn't ingoring us completly. If he wasn't at least watching how would he decide what to do with us when we die. I think he give people knowledge ocasionaly because of what hapens when people try to work out complicated stuff on thier own, I have read lots of great stories about early scientists poisening themselves or dieing in exsperaments that nobody in thier right mind would do today because they had nowhere to start from. There are alot of things like fire, medicines and metal that would have to be either the luckyest accedents in the world or divinly inspired because working them out by trial and error could have decimated an early population of humans through acedents or the loss of time and resources. I see God as more of a Prometheus like character than a combo of Titans and the other Gods of Olympus who watch over and meddle in the affairs of men.

You can think about this in several ways, and as a christian I would have to say that some of these occurances can be explained simply through the concept of free will. The guy totaling your car and leaving the scene and also the stealing of your wallet can be seen as just humans conducting their free will. One thing many people forget about christianity is that God created man with a will of his own, so man has all of the ability to conduct evil deeds without his actions reflected God's wishes.

As for your other problems, those could maybe just be explained as freak, bad occurences. Also, maybe God is testing your faith to bless you later. Take a look at the book of Job, he was really screwed. Sounds very similar to your situation.

Not trying to pass myself off as a theologian, but, that is the best way I feel I can use Christianity as a method of explaining your problems.

Best of luck to you, and hope you reach a resolution to your problems.

(Edit to change something I said)

[This message has been edited by jc_tbolt (edited 01-05-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Thank you. That was very sweet.

I have to say that I certainly hope I at least get a BREAK !

I don't want to believe anything in particular...I simply want to understand why these things may have happened, so that I can come to terms with it all, and move on with my life.

As with all things that have happened to me, I will know their purpose later.

I just wanted to see what everyone else thought about my (or their own) sufferings.

Thanks for the post !



Great to see you back, hope you can stay for awhile.

Anyway, I know that you know, all things happen for God's Will. As far as whether it is for your 'walk', yes- more than likely, but probably not exclusively... I have seldom seen things happen for only one person's benifit. God is pretty talented, you know. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

I thank God, you are alright.

Gotta go, have to reply to MoonTalker, arquin, and The_Reckoning with some lengthy posts... well, maybe tomorrow. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Social Junker:

Karma. Everything is connected, nothing happens without a cause.

PS-Welcome back, Digi, http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) glad to hear that you're regainig your health. Winter's rough.



Your statement indicates that I have somehow done something in my life to have deserved punishment, since karma = "what goes around comes around"

I have suffered greatly in my lifetime, and I guarantee that suffering has far exceeded comfort at thus point in my life.

Your viewpoint is very buddhist, which is fine, since you're a Buddhist. I don't really feel that it applies to me, since I believe in a higher power in the form of a monotheistic entity.

Thank you for the well wishes, and for your input, though.

You're sweet, as always.

How have you been ?

Pure chance, hey, at least you weren't in Sri Lanka.

Does God value you more than them?

That is a question all Christians should be asking themselves.

Good to see you back, anyway.

Dude, disaster has nothing to do with God favoring one group over others. Plus, a big reason why so many died around the Indian Ocean was because the lack of any sort of warning system. So saying something like that as what can be seen as a challenge to Christians just makes no sense.

In many aspects you're still better off than much of the world's population, so I would continue your faith if I were you, lest pride and feelings of entitlement get the better of you.

I mean, it sounds as if you could even die soon, even with the most wealth and the best treatment. You should at least die in peace.

[This message has been edited by AngrySquirrel (edited 01-06-2005).]

Bad things happen to good people. There's no rhyme or reason. How you interpret the cause and deal with it depends on your personal point of view.

By the way D.S., It's good to have you back. It's been pretty dull around here lately.Wish ya the best.

10But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?



20Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped, 21And said, Naked came I out of my mother' womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD



1Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.



may GOD bless you and KEEP you



disciple

I think that there's lots of bad stuff happening to good people in the bible and there's be good and jahve gives you cattle stories...

Of course god is responsible for it. Afterall (s)he's the one who created all this. Typical Christian answer is that God's deeds are unknown.

I personally believe God doesn't mess with humans much and terrible things like that should just tried to be ignored. I think there's some support in the bible for that and some medieval theologists thought that way(medieval theology is interesting and way more challenging than theology of those ugly ecstacy freak Christians).

This may sound very stupid but I really hope your situation would get better...

...and it most likely will

[This message has been edited by jurainus (edited 01-06-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:



How have you been ?



I've been okay, the winter came late to Nebraska, our first snow didn't hit us until January 4. Now we're paying for it: 8 inches night before last.

On a personal note, I quit smoking 3 months ago, so I'm happy with that. Also, started the winter quarter at community college.

Theological discussion was somewhat slow here, during your absence. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif) Again, glad to see you back.

The rain falleth on the just and on the unjust.

quote:Originally posted by woodlander:

The rain falleth on the just and on the unjust.



And the LORD saith, "Everybody poos."

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

*LAUGHS*

No, I actually wanted answers to those questions, Tribe. *winks*

Thanks for the "hope". *smiles*

How was your Christmas ? Are you still battling your Catholic teacher ?

And sorry sorry sorry I haven't composed that testimony yet.

As you can see, I've been through a lot lately. :-(

I will TRY and get it to you soon.

Uhh, I got kicked out of that school.

Long story short, they suspected me of dealing drugs, however I never dealt drugs at that school. But private schools can do what they want, so I'm at my local public HS now.

I told you my answer it is the end of times.

I actually think winter always sucks for everybody.

My brother might be getting his kid taken away from him, my friend's mom died 2 days before christmas, my next door neighbor died, my other next door neighbor had lots of accidents around the household and wound up breaking his leg and loosing his big toe, my girlfriend of two years who I sat beside everyday during her coma and consequential convalescence just up and disapears on me right as I come home for winter break, my friend who avoided a 5 year jail sentence by the skin of his nutsack is going right back into the same bullshit, every relationship I see is crumbling to dust, a few of my friends have been kicked out of school, and an immeasurable plethora of pain from people I don't know or am forgetting.

Winter time just sucks for some reason.

Sunrise, Sunset.

quote:Originally posted by woodlander:

The rain falleth on the just and on the unjust.

quote:Originally posted by I_Like_Traffic_Lights:

I told you my answer it is the end of times.

I actually think winter always sucks for everybody.

My brother might be getting his kid taken away from him, my friend's mom died 2 days before christmas, my next door neighbor died, my other next door neighbor had lots of accidents around the household and wound up breaking his leg and loosing his big toe, my girlfriend of two years who I sat beside everyday during her coma and consequential convalescence just up and disapears on me right as I come home for winter break, my friend who avoided a 5 year jail sentence by the skin of his nutsack is going right back into the same bullshit, every relationship I see is crumbling to dust, a few of my friends have been kicked out of school, and an immeasurable plethora of pain from people I don't know or am forgetting.

Winter time just sucks for some reason.

Sunrise, Sunset.

And it's times like these that you have to wonder, "Am I yet at the end of myself ?"

Only then can you see clearly.

I am very sorry to hear of the events occurring in your life.

I have been through worse times than these (meaning the examples I gave for this thread, not yours), and survived. A better person, for that matter.

I hope that things right themselves soon, so that you can once again find contentment.

I cannot lie and say that I don't also hope that finding the end of yourself finds you at the beginning of God, but I know that's reaching.

*winks*

Shame on you, TRIBE ! Prancing around, making people think you are a drug dealer ! *LOL*

And I like how you strategically planted the phrase "at this school" in that explanation of events ! HAHAHAHAHA !

I am sorry to hear that, if you regret the loss.

Otherwise, all hail our failing, inadequate public school system !

quote:Originally posted by jurainus:

...Afterall (s)he's the one who created all this...

i (H)hate that...

quote:Originally posted by jc_tbolt:

Dude, disaster has nothing to do with God favoring one group over others.

Really?

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

Uhh, I got kicked out of that school.

Long story short, they suspected me of dealing drugs, however I never dealt drugs at that school. But private schools can do what they want, so I'm at my local public HS now.

I feel for ya, Tribe. Drugs have gotten me into more trouble than they're worth.

What do you mean by "at the end of yourself"?

Do you mean the end of your life, or like closing a chapter in your life and moving on, do you mean as in end of yourself some loss of ego be it buddhist enlightenment/surrendering yourself to God/whichever end of the path?

I ask because it seems to be headed into a very insightful subject, and I wish to know what you meant before getting deeply into it.