First off, I despise Christianity, it was shoved down my throat all my life. I never really beleived any of it even when I was very young. My rejection of this faith has sent me into a search of another. I have researched almost every major religion out there. I am now currently very into Buddhism and Satanism (Not the baby killing freaks). I have dabbled in all, but the truth seeking of these two religions has really called to me. Questioning everything, knowing only what you experiance, I love it. These religions live for life, they don't live to die like most western religions do.I just have a question for the Buddhists of the West

How do you do it? How can we as men (women) practice and devote a life to a faith that is completley against the building of the ego and the fulfillment of desire, when we live in fuckin America?

America is BUILT on greed and ego. So far, the only situation I have come up with is to move. Yes, you must move to a new society, there is no way to be Buddhist is America.

Do you know what we call Buddhists? Bums, fuckin bums. People who have nothing, who have given up all worldly pleasures in search of something else. Those are bums, living on the street. It's so strange how a hobo here, can be one of the highest regarded men in society somewhere else.

I'm just wondering how you cope with the fact that even High School is geared tword building you up a career, making you BE SOMEBODY, a productive member of society. It's in our blood.

Can you be a Buddhist in America?

[This message has been edited by Krispy (edited 01-05-2005).]

I'm not talkin bums like crackheads living in boxes

I Theravada Buddhist give up all belongings, live in a monestary. They give up all desires and choice in order to eliminate of suffering. If someone did this in America, we would label him as a bumb, or a freak. He would be worthless to us, just another crazy hermit who probably smokes crack.

In Tibet for instance, he could be the leader of a community

and yes, some bums do just get what they deserve.

Don't take buddhism so seriously you'll eventually get your chance again when you reboot alllllllll ooovvveeerrr again in another body. Just savor your gift now for given this occasion to live in such a modern society that begs to pleasure you. I looked into Modern Satanism for awhile but, I just didn't really agree to LaVey's work. I do however love The Infernal Diatribe.

Shit you read the first post.

What do you live by then? I like LeVey's philosophy, but I don't like his acting, he played the part a little too much, I also don't believe in the magic ritual.

Look up 'Secular Humanism' if you despise Christianity. That might be a path that you would be more than willing to follow. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

I seem to feel odd when talking to other people about my views on the world and how everything just seems to makes sense when added that all have an objective. To just sneak you a little peak at my thoughts should I say the after life is ruled by a government system just like what you have now? Or is it that magic ritual the person uses to gain access into ones mind after saying that password? What I live by is this "I live as the beast of the field rejoicing in the fleshy life."

If you begin Buddhism in search of truth, truth will not come.

Buddha was a prince. A man of very high standing in an egotistical, and greedy society. Buddha escaped and accepted. Is that not possible in the modern world?

Some passages you might find interesting Krispy. (I'd say Social Junker and I are the most prominent "buddhists" on this forum, but don't listen to Social J, he's a cracker).

I want to show you these things to maybe shed some light on alot of good aspects of Christianity. You seem familiar with the faith, so I trust you can draw your own parallels. (Just forget all the Deitical problems, and focus on the good that Jesus taught):

"Your enemies will never make peace in the face of hatred-it is the absence of hatred that leads to peace. This is an eternal truth."

"We are but guests visiting this world, though most do not know this. Those who see the real situation, no longer feel inclined to quarrel."

Here's a good passage that may help you deal with the consumerism of America (I trust you understand the concept of Mara):

"Living for the pursuit of pleasure, senses endlessly stimulated, all appetites fed, undisciplined and lazy, you will be blown away by Mara, powerless, like a twig in a storm."

"Aware of the unpleasant side of life, senses controlled and appetites contained, full of faith and effort, you are like a mountain of rock in a storm, and Mara cannot touch you"

"Awake and mindful, with pure action and certain calm, the vigilant totally commit their lives to the Dharma, and their glory increases."

"The wise, by alertness and by vigilance, by restraint and perfect self-control, make of themselves an island which the waves can never overwhelm" (You see, you doubt your ability to transcend in America, yet it is possible)

Here's a little parallel with a christian verse I think you'll recognize:

"Fools and the wicked are their own worst foes. They perform evil actions that bring forth bitter fruit"

"Do not perform actions you will later regret: those actions which will ripen into future pain and sorrow"

Some more christian parallels:

"The path that leads to worldly gain is one thing, the path to nirvana is quite another. Monks who follow the Buddha's teachings clearly understand the difference. So take no pleasure in recognition, but praise detachment!"

"All being fear punshment; all fear death. If you take yourself as the measure, you will never harm, you will never kill."

"Whatever advice you give to others, do the same yourself. When you have subdued yourself, then subdue the rest- the only one hard to subdue is yourself"

"No one should strike a brahmin, but being struck, no brahmin should feel anger. Alas! misfortune for the one who harms a brahmin, but greater misfortune for the brahmin who turns in anger"



Hope that was a good supplement for your interest in Buddhism. All verses were taken from the Dhammapada. I hope it shed some light upon spiritual truths found in both buddhism and christianity, helped your understanding of buddhism, and softened your heart towards christianity.

If you could not recognize the parallels yourself, just ask about them and I'll give you the Biblical scripure and an explanation.

I do see the points you have made, thank you very much.

I love Buddhism so very much, but living in American makes it so much harder.

My heart is not hard twords Christianity, I just do not agree with hardly any of there teachings

Some of those teachings are Hindu are they not? Mara and all? I am not entirely up to par on my Hindu and am by no means a professional at either. Enlighten me.

quote:Originally posted by Dole:

If you begin Buddhism in search of truth, truth will not come.

Buddha was a prince. A man of very high standing in an egotistical, and greedy society. Buddha escaped and accepted. Is that not possible in the modern world?

I know this sir. I did not start Buddhism seeking truth and enlightenment, but just as a possibility to lighten to suffering of life.

Here's one for ya:

The student came to the teacher and asked

"Master, if I try REALLY hard, how long will it be until I reach enlightenment?"

The Teacher replied "Oh...I would say 10 years."

The student, seeming displeased in the longevity of his quest asked again "But what if I try REALL REALLY hard?"

The Teacher calmly replied " Hmmm....20 years."

The student, sinking deeper into his hole replied again "What if I meditate day in and day out, never stopping, I'll try harder then anyone ever has!"

The Teacher replied "You will never reach enlightenment"



just a little thing I read in Steve Hagen's book "Buddhism Plain and Simple" A great read. It's Buddhism - the culter and ritual, just Buddhism, the philosophy.

quote:Originally posted by Krispy:

I do see the points you have made, thank you very much.

I love Buddhism so very much, but living in American makes it so much harder.

My heart is not hard twords Christianity, I just do not agree with hardly any of there teachings

Some of those teachings are Hindu are they not? Mara and all? I am not entirely up to par on my Hindu and am by no means a professional at either. Enlighten me.

Oftentimes we Buddhists use Hindu gods and fables to express concepts. To get a very good portrait of the Therevadan Buddha and some nice beginning insight into both Buddhist philosophy and the religious and yogic practices, read Karen Armstrong's "Buddha". Quite good.

As far as being a Buddhist in America is concerned, if you feel the need to abandon all possessions to better foster your Buddha nature, go right ahead, but it is surely not necessary. There are many notable lay followers of the Buddha to be found in the Tripitaka (more information on this is available in the aforementioned book).

It is quite possible to become quite free from harmful desires by yogic practices and Loving-Kindness meditation, for examples, but there is no point in the Eight Fold Path that tells us the abandonment of all societal practices is essential to the release from samsara. Though Right Livelihood is admittedly very difficult to practice in American society, try your best.

Also, at their heart, Christianity and Buddhism are not so different, I am surprised to hear of your love of Buddhism but intense hatred of Christianity. The Middle Way is all about neverending compassion, so is the path of Jesus about unconditional love, and if "I am my brother's keeper" and "Love thy enemy as thyself" are not rooted in compassion....I don't know what. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

Blessings and best wishes on your journey to come. (that sounds kind of high and mighty but its heartfelt)

p.s. Robert Thurman's "Inner Revolution" proved to be a great help to me. Also, see if you can find a copy of his video lectures on the Three Jewels, excellent at explaining these concepts in terms we can understand. I believe they are simply called "Robert A.F. Thurman On Buddhism" and I forget the publisher.

I'm absolutely amazed at how confused people are as to the Buddha's story.

Krispy, you're thinking of Buddhism in the purely ascetic sense. If you remember your history correctly, Siddartha Gautama abandoned asceticism as a strict lifestyle in favor of what historians have called the "Middle Way," which is existing in a life of neither refusing anything nor seeking anything.

If you are to read any books on Buddhism, it should be The Doctrine of Awakening by Julius Evola. It draws on the most arcane and traditional Pali texts, closest to Prince Siddartha's original cult teachings and rituals.

And Buddhism has dick to do with questioning, and all to do with experiencing and knowing.

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

Krispy, you're thinking of Buddhism in the purely ascetic sense. If you remember your history correctly, Siddartha Gautama abandoned asceticism as a strict lifestyle in favor of what historians have called the "Middle Way," which is existing in a life of neither refusing anything nor seeking anything.

Very important point, I think.

My input: I'm not a buddhist but I've found some interesting effects from meditation. The longer you seek these mind states and "try" to get enlightened, it seems the farther you stray from it. Meditation is NOT seeking, it is simply observing. Remember the story of the buddhist who burned all his books of philosophy the day he was enlightened?

Just let things be, try not to confuse your life thinking "should I just give up all my possessions and then I'll be enlightened or happy or should I do this or that..."... Just try to find your own "path", ya know? Don't trick yourself into making yourself miserable to seek a false happiness... Do what works for you, do what you FEEL is right.

Meditation though, is a very beautiful thing and you don't need to know dogma to know your own breath.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

[This message has been edited by Fuck (edited 01-06-2005).]

"Can you be a Buddhist in America?"

Yes. I thought buddhism was thought to be unproductive(and it is) when it was born in India. And as you said yourself there's bums in America too...

And what prevents one from moving to forest to live alone?

What would prevent me from dancing public if it would be considered idiotic(it is)

You guys are correct. I was thinking as an ascetic. In the heat of my current state I was not thinking clearly.

Thank you for clearing this up for me.

It's just so many things get thrown at you being my age in todays world, but this will make me a better person in the end.

Thank you all again.

Oh, btw, I don't have an intense hatred for Christianity at all. I just disagree with much of their doctrine. Some Christians just really irritate me, but as far as hatred goes I have almost none

quote:Originally posted by Krispy:

You guys are correct. I was thinking as an ascetic. In the heat of my current state I was not thinking clearly.

Thank you for clearing this up for me.

It's just so many things get thrown at you being my age in todays world, but this will make me a better person in the end.

I know what you mean, dude. All the crap in society can really create inner conflict until we go haywire and don't know which way to go anymore. I think we all go through it. And that sweet surrendur when you give up and just accept your life as it is, because you don't wanna think anymore, is the moment you feel alive and free... and these struggles do help us grow and become better people. Live as you choose!

I just had to point out spiritual experiences are not for monks living in the forest alone, more and more people are discovering the effects of meditation here in the west every day. There are many books written by western meditators, and I have read many a times them saying that they strongly disbelieve you must throw your whole life away and live in a forest to be buddhist, though it seems like a nice way to gain the peace of mind and detachment for those states of mind. Some even say we're due in for a very big spiritual evolution. As for me I'd say I aint betting money on shit, I'm just gonna sit back and chill and we'll see how life goes on in the coming years.

haha some kid on a spiritual message board said once "I think enlightenment is not giving a rat's ass about enlightenment!"

[This message has been edited by Fuck (edited 01-06-2005).]