I've recently watched the movie "Vanilla Sky" starring Tom Cruise. This movie presented some new ideas to me that I have thought about before but not given much importance to. The idea of 'everything is a dream' is what is presented in the movie.

I agree with this idea. Everything that is and everything that ever will be is caused by MY wish for it to be as such. I make everything exist and I make everything happen. All that is in the UNIVERSE is caused by ME.

This has several other implications. If all that is is ME then everyone and everything in MY world is a dream or mirage. Nothing really exists outside of my mind...not totse, not you, you or you. In fact, my brain doesn't even exist! And, this leads to another interesting conclusion. If that is comes from ME then I would have to be deemed invincible - for if I die, everything will cease to exist along with me.

Clearly, most of the points presented in my rant are far from logical and some are absurd. Many loopholes and paradoxes can be found in the idea of, let's say, "Vanilla Sky". I post these ideas to entertain myself and to hear what anyone has to say concerning them.

- (if you haven't seen the movie, I recommend it as one of my favorites. A real psychological and almost philosophical thriller.)

Does anyone know what such an idea is called or how it is classified. There have to be others that agree or contribute to this sort of idea.

While I'm at it, let me say this. As far-fetched and strange as this idea sounds, there is no proof that can discredit it (that I know of). It's a religion and cannot be prooven wrong, much like Christianity. Anyone have the capacity to tell me otherwise?

You're taking it waaayyyy too litearally. Think metaphorical. Think existential.

Everything isn't at your whim, but a lot of "reality" does result from your mind. I don't mean concrete things like me, or my cigarettes, or my books. You don't even have to be alive for these to exist. I mean things like your judgements of things, which form your friends, which social gatherings you go to, your day to day life, even this response from me is due to the judgements you have given and are always giving.

In addition, yes, in all liklihood your "world" will cease to exist when you die to your perspective. This can have an isolating effect, it can also have an incredibly harmonious and blissfull effect. It all depends on how you look at it. Again depending on your judgement of this. You seem to have taken the more "nothing will matter in the end anyway so I'm going to be happy and laugh at how serious everybody is taking their imaginary sojourn" approach, which is good. However, you'll also have to come head-to-head with consequences of actions on your little stay here in "reality", because others aren't up on your plan for life.

Or they agree with you but only for them, not for you. Only they get to do whatever the hell they want, not you.

Oh yeah, almost forgot.....I'm pickin' up good vibrations....yeah, I'm pickin' up good vibrations.

Good...good...good...Good vi-bratioooonnnnnssssss

[This message has been edited by I_Like_Traffic_Lights (edited 01-12-2005).]

I agree, although this view is more of a common sense approach. Think about it. Without your brain what exists? Nothing. Without your brain to feel, hear, and sense things in any way, there is nothing - you are unconscious; even worse, you AREN'T. Everything that IS is a cause of your brain.

And, also.. lol, what is your vibrations comment about?

That's the song that's blaring when he asks for tech support. I found beach boys to be a hilarious pick for such a realization.

I do understand where your coming from, sounds like an acid trip of mine, but there are things that exist without your influence. Perhaps not to you because without you you'd never know about them, but they do still exist with or without you. The sooner you can come to terms with this the better. Because if you just try to force your view because it's the only thing that's "real" to you, then you'll just wind up alienating yourself from everybody. Then you're reality will kinda suck. Also there are certain physical and metaphysical laws that if not adhered to will fuck your day up.

Like attempting to jump off a cliff to fly.

Or

Thinking that fucking over a bunch of people won't have consequences.

Well traffic_lights,

If taken literally, you and your cigarettes don't exist in my reality. The only "you" that exists is "I_Like_Traffic_Lights", and even then, you only exist in my universe when you post and i read it. There's lots of posts on Totse, but if i don't read them, they don't really exist.

Its an interesting concept i guess. That movie sucked except for the beginning when they played "Everything In Its Right Place".

One thing i've noticed that seems to be an issue is how do you explain consequence or responsibility? Surely you don't want lung cancer, but you may want to smoke. So if you create your own universe, why do things happen that you would prefer didn't? I could see some subconscience need for justice or balance in certain cases (you don't do your homework, you get a bad grade, etc), but fluke health issues don't seem to really fit into that.

But, that's exactly the point. How am I supposed to know that this theory isn't true - it is absolutely untestable. I hope you understand this. I am not saying I am an all out believer in this theory, but if I was I would be right due to what I previously stated - I can't be proven wrong regardless of what you say. I hope you can understand this. I do value your opinion, though. There is definitely a need for some straight forward simplicity in one's life to maintain sanity.



[This message has been edited by chaski86 (edited 01-13-2005).]

You and I agree bishop, I was saying he was taking it too literally. Radiohead was a beautiful chioce in the soundtrack as well.

As for acid, chas, I wouldn't recommend it until you get this theory resolved. It might make for a.....interesting night.

Thanks, Bishop. You bring up a point I have thought about. My answer, however simple, is that that is our reality. We've created it - why should pain not exist? Humans aren't beings that thrive on perfection and utopia. Take a look at our books and movies. They are nothing without the essential 'problem' or 'dilemma'.

If anyone of you give this theory a chance for at least a couple of days you will see things that make sense when you have this theory in mind. A lot can be explained with it, really. You have to be extremely open minded. Don't dismiss anything as stupid or nonsense or it won't work. Just give it a try.

quote:Originally posted by chaski86:

If anyone of you give this theory a chance for at least a couple of days you will see things that make sense when you have this theory in mind. A lot can be explained with it, really. You have to be extremely open minded. Don't dismiss anything as stupid or nonsense or it won't work. Just give it a try.

I'm sorry you had a smidgen of credibility in more of a benefit-of-the-doubt kind of sense before this statement. Now I just feel that you're an idiot. Sorry, it's just how I feel.

"Don't dismiss anything as stupid or nonsense or it won't work" that's true for ANY-FUCKING-THING

I get why you think it's insightful I really do, but then I came down off my trip and realized the metaphorical significance it had. Not a way of life.

Man, shut the fuck up. Don't slam it till you've tried it. Lots of things work without an open mind - try toasting some bread, it works by itself, open mind or closed mind. And this is exactly what I'm talking about - you closed your mind to something you don't quite understand. Way to go with you gut and not your mind you nut.

Ummm..you're just now watching that movie ? *lol*

quote:Originally posted by chaski86:

Man, shut the fuck up. Don't slam it till you've tried it. Lots of things work without an open mind - try toasting some bread, it works by itself, open mind or closed mind. And this is exactly what I'm talking about - you closed your mind to something you don't quite understand. Way to go with you gut and not your mind you nut.

If you actually knew who I was, or read and understand what I told you you would find that entire post quite hilarious.

Because I sure do.

How about this instead of getting your philosophy from a fucking movie, read a book or two. Vanilla Sky wasn't the first to come up with this. Ever hear of Descartes?

If you weren't so stupid I'd suggest some Sartre as that was a pretty good step for me after I realized the metaphorical connotations of my doubting of the reality of reality.

quote:Originally posted by chaski86:

Thanks, Bishop. You bring up a point I have thought about. My answer, however simple, is that that is our reality. We've created it - why should pain not exist? Humans aren't beings that thrive on perfection and utopia. Take a look at our books and movies. They are nothing without the essential 'problem' or 'dilemma'.

Because our flesh craves sin...we are, after all, born into it.

You are explaining the very reasoning that supports the existence of God, thus nullifying your Dream Existence theory.

You are saying what Christians say, only without God as a factor in your equation.

quote:Originally posted by chaski86:

If anyone of you give this theory a chance for at least a couple of days you will see things that make sense when you have this theory in mind. A lot can be explained with it, really. You have to be extremely open minded. Don't dismiss anything as stupid or nonsense or it won't work. Just give it a try.

Are you sure you haven't tried acid yet ? *lol*

In all seriousness, Traffic is right. I wouldn't recommend it.

Acid is like a box of chocolates...you never know what you're gonna get.

(I only gave the whole quote because pretentious Britains have a tendency to shun great American flicks like Forest Gump.)

That was a joke. *winks*

I think you ought to be extremely open minded when thinking about whether there is actually a God or not.

You seem more than willing to be OPEN to Dream Existence theories, but not to God Existence theories.

Also, even if what you say is fact (we are all dreaming our lives), we would still have to exist to be having the dream, and it arrives us at the same age old question: who/what created us ?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by chaski86:

Everything that is and everything that ever will be is caused by MY wish for it to be as such. I make everything exist and I make everything happen. All that is in the UNIVERSE is caused by ME.

If all that is is ME then everyone and everything in MY world is a dream or mirage.

OK. If I punched you in the nose, would that be your dream or mine?

In fact, my brain doesn't even exist!

Dont be so hard on yourself. You found TOTSE, didnt you?

And, this leads to another interesting conclusion. If that is comes from ME then I would have to be deemed invincible - for if I die, everything will cease to exist along with me.

This last comment of yours: "for if I die, everything will cease to exist along with me." refer to my first answer, but instead of me punching you, substitute torment in Hell. Is this your dream? And how do you know that everything will cease vs. eternity like God's Word says?

Chaski86,

The idea remotely (or somewhat) resembles solipsism (http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=deskbar&q=define:solipsism).

You may be interested in the following site..

http://www.secretbeyondmatter.com

By the way, I don't necessarily agree with the way it presents things, but the concepts are very interesting to consider.

It may be a burden to search through the site, so I could provide a short summary of what it's about, if you're interested, but its probably better to read for yourself.

Trafficlights, what the fuck is the difference between a book and a movie? - format, yes; director versus author, yes; but they are both communicating an idea, just in different ways. What makes a book more valid?? Just because the idea of being an intellectual seems to be always being buried in a book written by some "deep, insightful" author. I don't give a shit what you read and by who it is written - an idea is an idea no matter who it comes from. I don't give a shit if he or she has fucking fifteen PhDs or if he or she is a hollywood idiot. They present the ideas and I work with them so that they benefit me personally.

And you're right, I don't know who you are. Your posts sound like you're an idiot, though.

And no, I haven't heard of Descartes! I'm a senior in highschool and don't give a shit about any of your fancy fuckin books. Even if I read Sartre I doubt it would answer any questions. Part of the reason I'm on Totse is so I don't have to read any of that shit - I just like to debate. I've read several books and all were "guaranteed to help me and answer some questions" but none did.

And digital saviour: your comments are so classic of a Christian - you break them down into parts too simple to deal with the original idea. You keep them simple and then just expect them to mean something revolutionary that solves the question in a short paragraph. It's not that easy so keep your Christian nonsense to yourself. This theory is in no way conected to God so don't try to connect it.

And no, it doesn't magically arrive back at the question "Who created us?" You obviously don't understand the subject matter when you say this: "Also, even if what you say is fact (we are all dreaming our lives), we would still have to exist to be having the dream". C'mon, wise up and think about it for more than a few seconds.

The most significant difference between a book and a movie is that a book is more likely to create thinking due to the fact that it forces you to use your imagination. Some people don't get much out of what they read because they fail to see that to read is an active performance. You have to create and imagine nearly as much as the author. I really hope you can shake off your incredibly short attention span for just a few short seconds to realize the benefits in this.

While, yes, movies like Vanilla Sky (Waking Life is another good one.) do actually present an idea it presents it in an almost toxic fashion. Because most of the thinking is done for you so that a lot of people only really receive the conclusion. Only having the conclusion these folks don't really know why they believe what they do, other then maybe the fact that it was presented in a believable manner, but this is detrimental to the growth of the person holding onto this belief. Because despite having no foundation, nothing to back it up, and no credibility they usually settle for ad hominum attacks which usually dwiddle down to childish name calling since they obviously aren't smart enough to form a worthwhile opinion of their own.

What you're doing is really taking a shitload of shortcuts to thinking. Which may seem fine now since you're still in highschool, and highschool requires little (if any) actual thought. You will regret all of these shortcuts, however, when you realize you have a bunch of half-assed thoughts with no reason to believe them.

In addition, I find it atrocious that there's a highschool senior who's never even heard of Descartes. I hope you've at least heard of Socrates. Descartes was a philospher who's philosophy began with his doubting that existence it existed using the reasoning that this could all be a dream. He even went so far as to bring in the possibility of an evil demon controling what we are overwhelming inclined to believe. Then he came to the realization that he couldn't doubt that he was doubting, which leads him to "I think therefore I am"

Basically, for practical purposes, we should act like we're not in a dream. Because even if it's all a dream afterall we're still just as real as anything else and suffer as real consequences as anything else in this reality because it would all be relative to eachother.

By the by I hope you wise up to the foolishness of your last statement to Digi. As you should be the one wising up and thinking about it for more then a few seconds.

In regards to your "open-mindedness" I could believe that I'm a smurf in smurfsville and you're all trying to trick me into denying my smurfdom and if I don't dismiss anything as stupid or nonsense it'll work.

So please, if you won't read or think for yourself, at least watch the movie again so you understand more then the ending.

*sighs*... here we go. You are assuming way to much about how I am thinking and how much time I have spent thinking about this theory. You assume I am a mindless movie goer that is in for only the thrill of a movie. I didn't even like "Vanilla Sky" that much, I simply love the fact that it introduced or reaffirmed my idea of "solipsism?".

Yes, you do present a point that books require more imagination, I agree with this. But I do not dismiss a movie simply because it is a movie or dismiss any ideas presented in it.

I believe I am taking several shortcuts to my thinking, but I believe they are necessary. I have thought about this theory for a long time prior to having watched "Vanilla Sky" and I resent you dismissing my thoughts as 'half-assed'. I have learned that to keep a discussion from being pissed away into an angry argument, one must no assume anything about another's beliefs. I do feel sorry that I have done this several times in this thread.

Regarding my highschool education - I am in a special situation. I am a missionary kid in a third world country and my education has been quite different to that of a normal highschool. We have a different curriculum than other schools. I am actually (now that you have mentioned these) interested in Descartes and the other fellow. Most likely, I will be reading their work sometime soon.

I stick to my guns on my statement to Digi - I have heard these kinds of arguments several times and have had enough of them. No apologies here.

I never stated that the whole message or idea of "Vanilla Sky" was of solipsism. I merely named the thread "Vanilla Sky" to spark some interest. I believe the movie has several messages, I simply have chosen not to include them in this thread.

You confuse me to no end. There are times when I think you are a complete twit, then I think you're almost on to something, then I think you're a fool, then I think you're heading in a productive path.

It's good that you're thinking about possibilities, and keeping open minded. I suggest you heed this warning, however. Take everything with a grain of salt, and above all don't put a lot of stock into any of the various "isms".

I like to try to have a plethora of ponderings. Take a bit from Existentialism, take a bit from buddhism, take a bit from Logical Positivism, take a bit from Deconstructionalism, take a bit from Christianity....ism.

Everybody has something to offer and I actually feel they all point to the same point they just use different stories, different words, different metaphors, different whatever and they get confused that they're talking about the same thing. Then some people get pissed that they can't express this profound thing starting them in the face to help the people around them and become discouraged and argue.

Well, thanks and no thanks. hmm.. I don't know what to make of that but I will say this. I do consider several different theories and ideas in forming my overall "universal view" although I tend to disregard several religious arguments due partially to my background in oppressive religion and due to other things as well. Yeah, no "isms" have solely taken over my thinking - they all seem to contribute a piece here and there.

You can believe me if you like. It is hard to tell from only a few conversations whether I am speaking the truth or not.



[This message has been edited by chaski86 (edited 01-14-2005).]

with all these references to acid and dream with in a dream, im really suprised no one mentioned Jacob's Ladder.

third world country or no your obviously well spoken, while maybe not well read i really cant believe youve never heard of descartes...no higher abstract math for you huh...which all is neither here nor there

the fact remains your philosophy was that nothing exists outside your mind (that was your philosophical stand point right?)which you all were almost there, if you only look inside your self and see nothin but what youve created than, to quote the great metallica, nothing else matters, that doesnt mean the things outside your area or realization dont exists, it means,more less, that dont matter.

im not trying to create an argument or anything, just state what i believe, which is what you had orginally asked for. and it would all humanity good if we were to read the basics of most all early asian religions(the isms forestated)which propose something like what chaski begin to see.

now-do not try to bend the spoon, that is impossible, instead relize it is not the spoon that bends, rather our self...or something like that

solipsism is for teenagers, you'll grow out of it.

You should look into the theory of Einsteins Mouse.

Cheers,

Lost

Yeah. Life's a dream.

You gotta be silent as a stone and pay very close attention to see through the veil. I hope someone else knows what I'm talking about, and if not, doesn't really matter. I know my own experiences.

Thank you to all who have participated in this thread. It has been a real help to hear the different opinions on the subject.

Yes, solipsism may be for teenagers and I may very well grow out of it. But for now it is a credible theory and I plan to give it some thought and, *sigh*, even some research.

Yes, I have heard of Einstein's mouse - an incredible theory that does follow, somewhat along the same lines as solipsism. I would like anyone familiar with this theory to PLEASE add some opinions and information to it in this thread.

Again, I apoligize for any out of place insults and attacks. I also apologize for any ignorance that I have displayed throughout. (I still don't know anything about Descartes... but will)

...

quote:Originally posted by chaski86:

I've recently watched the movie "Vanilla Sky" starring Tom Cruise. This movie presented some new ideas to me that I have thought about before but not given much importance to. The idea of 'everything is a dream' is what is presented in the movie.

I agree with this idea. Everything that is and everything that ever will be is caused by MY wish for it to be as such. I make everything exist and I make everything happen. All that is in the UNIVERSE is caused by ME.

This has several other implications. If all that is is ME then everyone and everything in MY world is a dream or mirage. Nothing really exists outside of my mind...not totse, not you, you or you. In fact, my brain doesn't even exist! And, this leads to another interesting conclusion. If that is comes from ME then I would have to be deemed invincible - for if I die, everything will cease to exist along with me.

Clearly, most of the points presented in my rant are far from logical and some are absurd. Many loopholes and paradoxes can be found in the idea of, let's say, "Vanilla Sky". I post these ideas to entertain myself and to hear what anyone has to say concerning them.

- (if you haven't seen the movie, I recommend it as one of my favorites. A real psychological and almost philosophical thriller.)



I have actually heard of this theory pertaining to God...that we are 'his' dream...but I have never heard it related to human reality. The convergence of other peoples realities just makes this an absurd proposition.

But it made an interesting film.

Btw...Wasn't the point of the film that he chose 'real life' over 'dream life' even though in the 'dream life' he could create anything that he would ever desire? That life requires more than just the mind...but that it actually needs to be LIVED...not dreamed?

quote:Originally posted by Fuck:

Yeah. Life's a dream.

You gotta be silent as a stone and pay very close attention to see through the veil. I hope someone else knows what I'm talking about, and if not, doesn't really matter. I know my own experiences.



Is this the meaning of this childhood song:

Row, row, row your boat

Gently down the stream,

Merrily merrily merrily merrily,

Life is but a dream.