i just dont see how you guys can think theres nothing after we die. with all modern science has to say especially. just look into string theory/M theory. i deffinetly dont belong to any religion because i feel that all orginizied religion is wrong and an invention of man to help cope with the fact that we dont know why we're here or how we got here, so dont take me as a bible pusher or anything. i guess im just curious. how can you think with all the evidence around us (think, the universe) and all the NDE's (click here (http://www.near-death.com/storm.html)) that theres nothing after we die? ive hard so much about christians it just gives me a headache. ive never head anything about atheists other than they only believe what they see. can you just share your thoughts?



[This message has been edited by Clifford the Big Red Bong (edited 01-16-2005).]

How about a pagan perspective?

Some pagans do believe in a god/dess/entity at the center of things, but essentially unknowable.

Locally, there are gods or families of gods with different attributes and responsibilities, mostly concerned with this planet and/or solar system. They're not all-powerful, just more powerful than us, and more approachable than most monotheistic entities.

You can believe in any/all/none of them and punishment doesn't come into it.

As for after death, most pagans believe in some sort of reincarnation (necessary or chosen) and that we know more between lives than we do while living one.

If this is too vague blame it on the 'many paths' aspect of paganism and our desire not to offend each other by defining things too zealously.

Most important element of paganism - There is no 'one right way'.

[This message has been edited by AbsentMindedWitch (edited 01-16-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by AbsentMindedWitch:

How about a pagan perspective?

Some pagans do believe in a god/dess/entity at the center of things, but essentially unknowable.

Locally, there are gods or families of gods with different attributes and responsibilities, mostly concerned with this planet and/or solar system. They're not all-powerful, just more powerful than us, and more approachable than most monotheistic entities.

You can believe in any/all/none of them and punishment doesn't come into it.

As for after death, most pagans believe in some sort of reincarnation (necessary or chosen) and that we know more between lives than we do while living one.

If this is too vague blame it on the 'many paths' aspect of paganism and our desire not to offend each other by defining things too zealously.

Most important element of paganism - There is no 'one right way'.



if i died and found out thats how it worked i could easily accept that. even the mutli-god thing makes some sense. there very well could be an architype-type god for every planet. maybe even several. or maybe just one per universe. who knows? who really cares anyway right? anyway, i found what you said to be interesting. ill probably look into it when im more awake.

while i was typing that i just had a thought. this is about christianity.

did all the native americans,who never heard of jesus, go to hell because they werent christians?

i think that raises a good point. what god would send people to suffer forever just because they never had the chance to learn about him?

hell, if i was god id be a lot nicer than that. i wouldnt even send hitler to hell. maybe id make him experience exactly what it was like for everyone he made suffer, but eternal suffering is just sadistic.

discuss.

edit: oh and what about people with severe mental disorders (like hitler and stalin)? would you really send someone -who has no real control over what they think or do- to hell forever just for having a warped view of reality?

this is getting off topic but i didnt see the need to make another topic. athiests stick to answering my first post, christians im interested to hear your views on my thoughts about this.

[This message has been edited by Clifford the Big Red Bong (edited 01-16-2005).]

I don't see how the superstring theory plays into the question of "life after death". Are you talking about the idea of multiple dimensions that is a part of the theory? A little clarification please, and I'll do my best to respond.

quote:Originally posted by Clifford the Big Red Bong:

i just dont see how you guys can think theres nothing after we die. with all modern science has to say especially. just look into string theory/M theory. i deffinetly dont belong to any religion because i feel that all orginizied religion is wrong and an invention of man to help cope with the fact that we dont know why we're here or how we got here, so dont take me as a bible pusher or anything. i guess im just curious. how can you think with all the evidence around us (think, the universe) and all the NDE's (click here (http://www.near-death.com/storm.html)) that theres nothing after we die? ive hard so much about christians it just gives me a headache. ive never head anything about atheists other than they only believe what they see. can you just share your thoughts?



Becuase what you call "evidence" isn't evidence at all. What is this "evidence" all around us? The Universe? How is that evidence of Afterlife?

As for NDE their is already a scientific explanation from them, and moreover the vast majority of them are someway or another tied to a Christian perspective of afterlife, in which case flaws in Christianity itself further discredit them.

Hey, Clifford - you're familiar with the forum "Science of the Damned". What the hell is that forum about, and why are all the clowns that participate in it so WEIRD??

quote:Originally posted by Clifford the Big Red Bong:

i just dont see how you guys can think theres nothing after we die. with all modern science has to say especially. just look into string theory/M theory. i deffinetly dont belong to any religion because i feel that all orginizied religion is wrong and an invention of man to help cope with the fact that we dont know why we're here or how we got here, so dont take me as a bible pusher or anything. i guess im just curious. how can you think with all the evidence around us (think, the universe) and all the NDE's (click here (http://www.near-death.com/storm.html)) that theres nothing after we die? ive hard so much about christians it just gives me a headache. ive never head anything about atheists other than they only believe what they see. can you just share your thoughts?



Is it really that hard to believe that there's no afterlife? Whats so hard about believing that when you die you just cease to exist, its a lot less complicated than the idea of an afterlife and makes more sense.

Hmm... my perspective, is, more or less, that you cease to exist, however, some fucked up ideas I have about existance mean that that isn't exactly "the end" as far as I'm concerned.

I don't get your original example of string theory helping the idea of an afterlife. String theory just says that everything is refined energy, to keep it extremely short.

As for if one exists after life, the question must be posed: Do we have a soul? and if so, what defines a soul?

Frankly, I don't believe we have souls. I believe we have minds capable of processing thoughts and decisions based upon previous experiences.

quote:Originally posted by roadtripper420:

I don't get your original example of string theory helping the idea of an afterlife. String theory just says that everything is refined energy, to keep it extremely short.

[B]

what i was getting as was that theres a whole lot more to reality than what we can see. such as multiple(infinite?) other universes/dimensions.

quote:Originally posted by chaski86:

[B]I don't see how the superstring theory plays into the question of "life after death". Are you talking about the idea of multiple dimensions that is a part of the theory? A little clarification please, and I'll do my best to respond.

i just answered this.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Becuase what you call "evidence" isn't evidence at all. What is this "evidence" all around us? The Universe? How is that evidence of Afterlife?



i just see the universe as evidence that life in unending. ill have to think about this because i cant really form a coherant thought about it right now.

quote:Originally posted by chaski86:

Hey, Clifford - you're familiar with the forum "Science of the Damned". What the hell is that forum about, and why are all the clowns that participate in it so WEIRD??

i think some of them are way too full of themselves and or have severe mental illnesses. im way to famillier with crazy shit like that.. my mother was one of those "new age" tarrot card reading phone pyschics... i believe in psychic ability and some of that crazy stuff, but obviously just saying youre psychic doesnt make you psychic. and that tarrot card bullshit is all chance. all you do is pull random cards out of a shuffled deck. 90% of that stuff in SOTD is complete bullshit so dont take it at face value.

quote:Originally posted by Clifford the Big Red Bong:

just see the universe as evidence that life in unending. ill have to think about this because i cant really form a coherant thought about it right now.

Well, then that doesn't serve as evidence, at least not meaningful evidence. That would be like me saying that this music I'm hearing is evidence that there's a feces-tossing monkey in the moon...

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Well, then that doesn't serve as evidence, at least not meaningful evidence. That would be like me saying that this music I'm hearing is evidence that there's a feces-tossing monkey in the moon...

LMAO.

Yeah... good point rust.

I don't believe in an afterlife or lack thereof; I am neutral. How's that?

quote:Originally posted by deptstoremook:

I don't believe in an afterlife or lack thereof; I am neutral. How's that?

neutrality owns all religion http://www.totse.com/bbs/cool.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/cool.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Well, then that doesn't serve as evidence, at least not meaningful evidence. That would be like me saying that this music I'm hearing is evidence that there's a feces-tossing monkey in the moon...

haha good point. after thinking about it for a while, youre right. i mean, theres no way i can provide solid evidence of any link between this universe and an afterlife.

im just glad i believe in an afterlife. i think life would be depressing if i thought this was all there was to it.

I've read some things before that suggested that Near Death Experiences are experienced when DMT is released from the brain, which is when you die.. but when you almost die.. it could trick your brain to trigger it.. therefore people who have NDE's are really just tripping on DMT

yea ive heard about that. DMT is one crazy drug too. lastnight i remembered something pretty interesting about NDEs that cant just be explained away by hallucenating though.

some people whove had NDEs have brought back tangible evidence that they were actually out of their bodies. for example, theyve read the labels on ceiling fan and read the tags on the collers of nurses shirts. even if they were up and walking around it would be difficult to see what they were. i even heard one story about a blind women, who had been blind all her life, who got in a car accident and had a NDE. she said it was the first and only time in her life she ever saw anything. it wasnt just swirling colors either, she was discribing the weather outside, the birds she saw, cars, trees etc. things a blind person wouldnt be able to discribe without seeing something and wouldnt be able to hallucenate unless they saw them before. im sure all these stories are on near-death.com if you wanna check them out.

The "nde" experiences are no different from ones that can be reached through meditation, astral projection, and drugs.

Real evidence brought back is from remote-viewing "esp", and the brain makes a body "double" illusion to cope with the information.

The real question is what would live on after death? Memories, attitudes, habits, personality... these things can be changed physically through the brain. Why would they live on through death?

What is the definition of "you", you think would still be alive? That which says "I am I" is called ego, and many think it is only an illusion.

quote:Originally posted by Viraljimmy:

The "nde" experiences are no different from ones that can be reached through meditation, astral projection, and drugs.

Real evidence brought back is from remote-viewing "esp", and the brain makes a body "double" illusion to cope with the information.

The real question is what would live on after death? Memories, attitudes, habits, personality... these things can be changed physically through the brain. Why would they live on through death?

What is the definition of "you", you think would still be alive? That which says "I am I" is called ego, and many think it is only an illusion.

im too tired to comprehend what youre saying but it seems deep. ill have to check back tomorrow.

i do think this bares repeating though.

quote:for example, theyve read the labels on ceiling fans and read the tags on the collers of nurses shirts.

that would be impossible when their brain is clinicly dead. even if they were awake alert and walking around, how the fuck would they be able to read the label on the top of the ceiling fan and get every detail right?

i know im not changing anyones mind anymore than a christian would be able to convert me. i guess im just curious about what everyone thinks and im trying to make people think. i cant blame anyone for wanting to think they know everything about why we're here and who put us here (like christians), and i cant blame anyone for only believing what they see (athiests). its only human http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

so whats an atheists opinion on those NDEs i just mentioned?

neurons firing at an excessive rate kinda overloading the receptors? i dunno but im an atheist and thats my opinion

quote:Originally posted by LeperMessiah:

neurons firing at an excessive rate kinda overloading the receptors? i dunno but im an atheist and thats my opinion

overloading them to the point where their brains cobbled together a completely random thought about seeing (among many other things) the label from a ceiling fan and just happend to get every detail right?

yea.. i guess that would explain it http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

I would just like to ask who got this "ceiling fan" information and where they got it from. It's always important to consider the source. Word of mouth tends to change slightly (and sometimes greatly) with ever person who receives it and then passes it on. Several things are related to reliability of the source such as "that fish I caught was 4 ft long!". I have trouble believing this ceiling fan information due to this fact - I would like to know where this information is coming from or else I will not believe it.

quote:Originally posted by chaski86:

I would just like to ask who got this "ceiling fan" information and where they got it from. It's always important to consider the source. Word of mouth tends to change slightly (and sometimes greatly) with ever person who receives it and then passes it on. Several things are related to reliability of the source such as "that fish I caught was 4 ft long!". I have trouble believing this ceiling fan information due to this fact - I would like to know where this information is coming from or else I will not believe it.

i saw this story either on the discovery channel (a few years back, before it became complete garbage) or the history channel. ill check near-death.com and google right now and see if i can find a direct link.

i havent read this whole page yet but it could be here. even if it isnt, theres many stories that were just as well documented and just as amazing.

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence02.html

I think that when one talks about "life after death" they're really thinking whether there is any kind of conscious reminiscence of life, because that's all that really matters in this situation. I personally don't think this is possible. The mind is an incredible thing, and capable of enormous speculation of possibility outside what is readily accepted, but at the end of the day, it is reliant upon the millions of neurones and synapses in the cerebral cortex. When we die, this ceases to function, and we simply cease to be. It's not a comforting thought, but when it does happen, there will be nothing left of you to worry about it. Noone has any conscious memory of before birth, when they did not exist, and I find it strange that people fear ceasing to be.

This is all speculative, however, and nothing can be proved either way, in fact nothing can be proved full stop, but I'm quite happy living with the absurdity.

quote:Originally posted by Rav:

I think that when one talks about "life after death" they're really thinking whether there is any kind of conscious reminiscence of life, because that's all that really matters in this situation. I personally don't think this is possible. The mind is an incredible thing, and capable of enormous speculation of possibility outside what is readily accepted, but at the end of the day, it is reliant upon the millions of neurones and synapses in the cerebral cortex. When we die, this ceases to function, and we simply cease to be. It's not a comforting thought, but when it does happen, there will be nothing left of you to worry about it. Noone has any conscious memory of before birth, when they did not exist, and I find it strange that people fear ceasing to be.

This is all speculative, however, and nothing can be proved either way, in fact nothing can be proved full stop, but I'm quite happy living with the absurdity.

that does make total sense i guess. when the body dies, the brain dies and consciousness on this level does cease to exist.

still, i think theres more to it and some day soon science will prove that consciousness itself lives on after we die.

someone might find this somewhat interesting.

http://www.near-death.com/physics.html

i dont know what to make of it really.. it is interesting that our thoughts can change light from a wave to a particle though.

i was hoping that website would talk about something else i heard on the discovery channel years ago. it talked about how theres evidence that certin energy/particles can be in two places at once only on different levels of existence (dimensions?) and how that might explain a "soul". i dont know though.. i was hoping to find something mroe about it but i had no luck.

quote:Originally posted by Clifford the Big Red Bong:



i dont know what to make of it really.. it is interesting that our thoughts can change light from a wave to a particle though.

i was hoping that website would talk about something else i heard on the discovery channel years ago. it talked about how theres evidence that certin energy/particles can be in two places at once only on different levels of existence (dimensions?) and how that might explain a "soul". i dont know though.. i was hoping to find something mroe about it but i had no luck.

Can our thoughts really physically change light from a wave to a particle. Light bhaves in different instances like both a wave and a partical. The action potential produced by the effect of light on chemicals in rod and cone cells can convert light to an electrical impulse, millions of which create vision, but again this is just a part of nervous coordination. At what point does a combination of electrical signals become thought, and is there really any difference between the two?

I'm not sure exactly what you mean about particles being in two places at once. Electrons change state, and it has been suggested that the act of observation affects when it jumps from one state to another, and if constantly observed, it will not change state, it's the whole infinite halfway points idea, again all speculative. I don't see how this would be prrof of multiple dimensions, however.

after reading more about that light=god thing i think its pretty retarded.

as for the particals being in two places thing, i really wish i knew what to google to find out information about it. i remember them talking about it as a fact, not speculation. this was about 7 years ago though..