Firstly I will start by saying I am an atheist by objction, in that I object to syndicated religion so I reject it, however I believe that there are ghosts and alot of other things alot of people would call odd. Although I believe in all this odd stuff like spirits and magic (like wicca sorta thing).

So I was just sat there thinking, I am confident I am right in denying religion, but am I just plain naive? Am I really ignorant, or is everyone else?

So, what are your comments on the subject?

quote:Originally posted by gremlin hunter:

Am I really ignorant, or is everyone else?

Though some atheists could be considered ignorant, as well as some people of faith, I think that most atheists are either too self-deceived or arrogant to accept that God exists.

Those that are self-deceived are the ones that refuse to accept any possibility that something or someone might exist beyond their own personally conceived limits of logic and reality.

Those that are arrogant refuse to accept that there could be something or someone greater than humankind, that we might not be the top of the food-chain per-say. They deny the existence of higher-order beings to perpetuate their self-worth and self-esteem.

There have been a few atheists that I have encountered and/or befriended, even on this board, that have shown themselves to be in neither of the above mentioned categories, but are truly seeking the truth. To those individuals I trust they will not take my criticisms personally.

Concerning whether people of faith are ignorant, I admit that my personal knowledge of many topics, particularly higher levels of chemistry, is lacking a thoroughness, though I have accumulated a decent amount of mathematics and physics pursuing my engineering degree. I try to be open to new ideas and points of view to expand my knowledge and understanding of the universe, without violating my personal beliefs or convictions.

To those people of faith who refuse to be open-minded enough to actually read posts from intellectuals of differing viewpoints, I ask that you open your minds a bit.

To those self-named atheists who automatically classify people of faith as ignorant, I would likewise ask that you open your minds some more.

This is from a poor computer programmer who wishes he had more time for totse...

God Bless!

Ok... lets play a little game here.

I say: an invisible, incorporeal rainbow dragon lives in my garage.

Do you believe it?

No, is the default state.

Uhh, now I'm going to turn around and say, yes, from my personal experience, I'm not on absolute objection to everything paranormal, but thats about as far as it goes.

The believer assumes the burden of proof.

Anyways, I think both atheists and religious individuals are naive, to think that they have any chance of knowing whether or not some sort of "god" exists. You won't know until you're dead, so stop pretending you have a clue what youre talking about.

Agnosticism, bitches.

-mike

quote:Originally posted by mksnowboarder:

The believer assumes the burden of proof.

-mike

Not if it's a belief. If I say it's a truth, then yes I would have to prove it to you, but beliefs are just that, beliefs. Your beliefs on this are just as valid as mine or anyone else's. Just because someone has a more positive belief concerning god, it doesn't mean they have to validate their belief to anyone.

quote:Originally posted by mksnowboarder:

(...)I think both atheists and religious individuals are naive, to think that they have any chance of knowing whether or not some sort of "god" exists. You won't know until you're dead(...)

This is a good point. Naive might be a strong word, but the point is essentially true -- testimony from people who've survived a Reckoning is scarce.

My agnosticism comes from an immersion in science and the scientific method.

Basically, since I cannot prove or disprove the (non)existence of God(s), I cannot state clearly that I am atheist or religious, nor can I in good conscience swing one way or the other without concrete evidence which I can examine with my own senses.

As for my ethics and morals, again -- I choose the least-common-denominator and just think to myself "in the absence of any higher power, what guidelines should human activity follow?" To which I usually reply, "The preservation of the public good and in general to refrain from activities that set person against person." (i.e. no murdering, adultery, destruction of common property, etc.)

I have no knowledge of whether or not humankind is the pinnacle (or pit) of life in the universe -- my guess would be that there are being (or entities) above and below us in accomplishment, power, etc. It's not something I dwell on, however -- the odds of me encountering any such life in my lifetime are quite remote, given the (apparent) size & age of the universe compared to that of the earth, and comparted to my own. However, I will not discount the possibility.

I think a good agnostic practise should be to read through religious texts anyway, and glean whatever grains of wisdom can be gleaned. At the same time, discourse on some of the more questionable aspects should be encouraged. Developing new forms of wisdom based on purely secular or humanistic principles should also be encouraged.