is it reasonable to assume the majority of christians believe in fate? (i admit i'm not incredibly learned on the subject)

if god has a plan for us all, why are we given the choice between heaven and hell?

thank you.

virtualy none of christianity makes any sense. see my many posts.

quote:Originally posted by Clifford the Big Red Bong:

virtualy none of christianity makes any sense. see my many posts.

Virtually none of your posts make sense.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

Virtually none of your posts make sense.

*giggles*

That was funny, too.

Geez, I'm in a good mood tonight.

I'm sorry, Cliff. I get your posts, usually. But, you are a bit scattered.

Cheers,

Lost

thanks guys that was a big help.

are there actually any religious people here anymore or did people force them to leave with their inability to be unbiased?

personally i don't believe in any religion, but as of yet we cannot prove there is no god so hey, who knows? maybe venus and a shield of spirits protect earth from alien invaders and we're oblivious to it all.

Christianity presumes free will. If everything was fated there could be no sin, or "morality".

But then the same people have the isea of original sin, which pretty much condemns us to sin at the same time.

I really hate Christianity.

[This message has been edited by dagnabitt (edited 01-21-2005).]

It's understandable to hate what you don't completely understand.

Fate can mean a few things. Fate can mean that some ethereal being has a specific plan for us that we have to live out because it has already been choosen for us. Fate could also mean that an ethereal being already knows what we are going to do, but he doesn't make you do it. I guess there is an indirect and a direct version of fate. The direct version involving god actually deciding your fate for you and the indirect version implying that god already knows your fate, but you still ultimately make the decision.

If one we to believe in direct fate, then free will wouldn't exist. If one were to believe in indirect fate, then free will would still be existent and logical. I believe that most catholics and christians believe in indirect fate.

QUOTE Originally posted by HandicapParking:

are there actually any religious people here anymore

I'm here, huckleberry.

or did people force them to leave with their inability to be unbiased? /QUOTE

Not me, i'm in my prime.



**wow, i loved that movie.**

quote:Originally posted by dagnabitt:

Christianity presumes free will. If everything was fated there could be no sin, or "morality".

But then the same people have the isea of original sin, which pretty much condemns us to sin at the same time.

I really hate Christianity.

Well, it seems as though you've got 2/3 of the basics. Just alittle more and you've got salvation.

I was raised Christian (catholic, and now my family is "born again"). I've read the bible cover to cover. Went to sunday school, and studied the religion academically. I get it just fine. I'm also obsessed with the philosophy of free will, and not to sound arrogant but i'm willing to bet I'm more versed in the debate than most people (even though alot of people dont agree with my stance).

http://www.totse.com/bbs/Forum31/HTML/002291.html

If its ok to hate any way of thinking then its acceptable to hate Christianity.

I dont hate Christians mind you, not in practice. People have to believe something. But I hate the dogma of the religion, and to be honest the blatant stupidity.

I have personal bias here. My family has all but disowned me because I am not Christian. Rather than talk to me they prefer to pray for me. Thats what that religion does to people. Makes them choose the old man in the clouds over those who really care.



[This message has been edited by dagnabitt (edited 01-24-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by dagnabitt:

I dont hate Christians mind you, not in practice. People have to believe something. But I hate the dogma of the religion, and to be honest the blatant stupidity.

I agree that most of the organized branches of Christianity have distorted and misrepresented the truth of the Scriptures, as well as muddling it with extraneous dogmatic teachings.

quote:

I have personal bias here. My family has all but disowned me because I am not Christian. Rather than talk to me they prefer to pray for me. Thats what that religion does to people. Makes them choose the old man in the clouds over those who really care.



Sorry to hear about your family and their treatment of you. I trust that you and your family will work out your differences, and mend your relationship, even if you do not end up agreeing on spiritual issues.

My understanding of so-called 'free' will is that God created humans with the ability to make decisions. The options that are available to be chosen are limited by the specific circumstances, therefore the application of the will is not actually 'free'.

God has also pre-destinated the universe according to a specific plan of events and timeline, which our decisions fit into in a grand scheme. This may seem to violate the possibility of us having a will, or eliminates the ability for us to make decisions, but this is not the case.

Pre-destination (destiny, fate, election) and 'free' will (choice, personal responsibility) are simulatneously existing, so Forrest Gump was correct when he said that 'both are happening at the same time'.

It is quite complicated, but the only way that it all makes sense, to my humble mind at least...

Thanks for the sentiment. I've been arguing the whole free will thing ad nauseum in another thread and dont want to here. Suffice to say. If you are happy at the end of the day because you are a christian, then you should be a christian. However, its when you feel other people need to conform to that belief I think problems arise. ANyway. Cheers.



[This message has been edited by dagnabitt (edited 01-25-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:



Fate can mean a few things. Fate can mean that some ethereal being has a specific plan for us that we have to live out because it has already been choosen for us. Fate could also mean that an ethereal being already knows what we are going to do, but he doesn't make you do it. I guess there is an indirect and a direct version of fate. The direct version involving god actually deciding your fate for you and the indirect version implying that god already knows your fate, but you still ultimately make the decision.

If one we to believe in direct fate, then free will wouldn't exist. If one were to believe in indirect fate, then free will would still be existent and logical. I believe that most catholics and christians believe in indirect fate.

How on earth could I "still make the desicion" when god knew what I was going to choose an infinite amount of time, before I was even born? Before the events that lead up to the "choice" where even part of existence, god already knew what I was going to do. Before the concept of choice even popped into my head, god already knew what I was going to choose and thus I HAD to choose it. How is that a choice? It isn't.

WHO CARES.

quote:Originally posted by dagnabitt:

I was raised Christian (catholic, and now my family is "born again"). I've read the bible cover to cover. Went to sunday school, and studied the religion academically. I get it just fine. I'm also obsessed with the philosophy of free will, and not to sound arrogant but i'm willing to bet I'm more versed in the debate than most people (even though alot of people dont agree with my stance).

http://www.totse.com/bbs/Forum31/HTML/002291.html

If its ok to hate any way of thinking then its acceptable to hate Christianity.

I dont hate Christians mind you, not in practice. People have to believe something. But I hate the dogma of the religion, and to be honest the blatant stupidity.

I have personal bias here. My family has all but disowned me because I am not Christian. Rather than talk to me they prefer to pray for me. Thats what that religion does to people. Makes them choose the old man in the clouds over those who really care.

In light of this, i may have given you too much credit, in reguards to my 2/3 statement.

Without taking the dogma into account, God says, in His Word, that He should be at the top of our priorities.

I skimmed a few of your posts in Humanities, and in general (from what i gathered from skimming), i would mostly agree with you on subject of free-will.

I'm sure that this is where you and i separate on free will, so this is just for background....My belief is that free-will is very limited. But Calvinism, in my view, is wrong also, because the Bible points to things that we have choice to/of (accepting Jesus as Savior, for one example). My understanding, todate, from studying the Bible, would lean mostly toward Calvinism (pre-destined by God) with "grey-zones" at certain points (i'll call them free-will cross roads), which God allows us to make choices... but are themselves predestined).. I know, circlular.. Anyway, until Rust pointed out his arguement, I've never felt is was a big deal (in away, i still dont...for my faith, yet in another, i do... i cant be as effective a sower, without understanding the soil and the seeds)

Ramblin' Man's gotta get some sleep

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

WHO CARES.

thank you.

why did you post? i request that you go to SG.

Your request is enthusiastically denied, for my Will is Law.

I posted because this is a stupid point to reiterate over and over again. As far as you, the nameless individual who makes decisions on a daily basis, makes them with what you perceive to be your own free will, then why the fuck should you concern yourself with whether or not it was divinely ordained? It is completely inconsequential to a man experiencing daily life.

Maybe it was pre-determined for him to do so?

Would that stop you from doing it?

Stop me from doing what? Concerning myself "whether or not it was divinely ordained"?

Or posting about this subject?

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 01-27-2005).]

Rust:

Sorry, got confused. I thought Maybe it was pre-determined for him to do so? was directed towards my post, not Handicap's.

i want to get my "facts" straight.

OK.

Christianity is a bunch of bull shit. Most of society is "Christian" but most of them don't practace what they preach, but those who do more power to ya.

sorry, got a little off topic, but in other words no it doesn't work at all.

FREE WILL FOR EVEYBODY!!!! If there was no free will, satan, an former angel wouldn't have been "programmed" to rebell. Same goes for adam and eve. Next, in Ecclesiastes 9:11: "...because time and unforeseen occurrence befall them all." So, this shows that god is not punishing people for the bad things they did, or that it was planned.