Christians say that:

1. We have free will (accept or reject Jesus)

and

2. God knew the future (i.e., your future) when he created you.

Ok, lets assume that a person with free will (in a given situation) makes a certain choice.

1. The person would make the same decision given identical circumstances.

Imagine that if God could rewind time: the person would make exactly the same choice over and over again. If everything is exactly the same, there is no reason for the choice to change. This does NOT mean that the person did not choose of his own free will, however.

Therefore:

2. What you choose is thus determined (at least partly) by the circumstances in which you made the choice.

(If you had not been born in Watts you would never would have been pressured to smoke crack at 13)

3. God knew what choice you would make (OF YOUR OWN FREE WILL) when you were put in those circumstances. (he knows all!!!)

4. God created those circumstances.

If God knows what will happen when he does some action (create a human, put him on earth, knowing all along that he will CHOOSE not to accept gods word), and that thing happens (he chooses to die in sin, like god knew he would) then whose fault is it?

He had free will, but god knew what choices he would make because god created the circumstances of his life.

Therefore, if free will exists, everything is Gods fault.



And therefore GOD IS UNJUST. so there.



[This message has been edited by ThereIsNoMatrix (edited 01-23-2005).]

Actually, there is no clear scriptural basis for the doctrine of free will, so everything I do really is God's will/fault.

we are either carrying our actions through fate and god or we are the victims of chemicals reactions, and circumstances.. we don't have much control either way.

i don't see how you suddenely jumped to the GOD IS UNJUST part

quote:Originally posted by ThereIsNoMatrix:

Christians say that:

1. We have free will (accept or reject Jesus)

and

2. God knew the future (i.e., your future) when he created you.

Ok, lets assume that a person with free will (in a given situation) makes a certain choice.

1. The person would make the same decision given identical circumstances.

Imagine that if God could rewind time: the person would make exactly the same choice over and over again. If everything is exactly the same, there is no reason for the choice to change. This does NOT mean that the person did not choose of his own free will, however.

Therefore:

2. What you choose is thus determined (at least partly) by the circumstances in which you made the choice.

(If you had not been born in Watts you would never would have been pressured to smoke crack at 13)

3. God knew what choice you would make (OF YOUR OWN FREE WILL) when you were put in those circumstances. (he knows all!!!)

4. God created those circumstances.

If God knows what will happen when he does some action (create a human, put him on earth, knowing all along that he will CHOOSE not to accept gods word), and that thing happens (he chooses to die in sin, like god knew he would) then whose fault is it?

He had free will, but god knew what choices he would make because god created the circumstances of his life.

Therefore, if free will exists, everything is Gods fault.

And therefore GOD IS UNJUST. so there.

This topic has been cover over and over, and to no avail, but here we go again (although Rust does make a stronger case than you, slightly):

(In no particular order)

Part of the arguement against your statement is that you have to prove that we can make a choice in the first place. If you think that you have made a choice, how can you prove that it was a choice and not fate.

To claim that God is unjust, you would have to know God's motive for doing what He does.

Example: Rust and Metalligod have argued, and Rust calls Metalligod stupid.

From what i just told you, can you tell me if Rust was trying to be assinine to Metalligod, or was Rust trying to motivate Metalligod into thinking?

In other words, if you dont know the motives, then they can be either malevolent or benevolent... and its the same with punishment, was it out of retribution or from protection/teaching or even some other reason (because i said, and i told you what the consequences would be).

Also, with God's ability of being all-powerful, He would have the power to seperate His forknowledge from our ability of choice.

I think that free-will has been over emphasized. It is simply the ability to choose to believe in, and trust God, in my opinion.

quote:Originally posted by ThereIsNoMatrix:

Actually, there is no clear scriptural basis for the doctrine of free will.



No, you are right, but there is indication of free-will in scripture. Two examples: Jonah, Adam and Eve

quote:Originally posted by smashed kaleidoscope:

i don't see how you suddenely jumped to the GOD IS UNJUST part



How can he torment souls forever in hell that did exactly what he knew they were going to do? That's like not taking your dog out for a walk and then beating it for peeing on the floor. Yeah, the dog wet the carpet, but it's YOUR fault.

Anyways, if the bible is literally right, there is a much more unpleasant reality to consider: the fact that I am destined for hell... http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



Part of the arguement against your statement is that you have to prove that we can make a choice in the first place. If you think that you have made a choice, how can you prove that it was a choice and not fate.

I took the mainstream Christian doctrine of free will as a given for the sake of this argument.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

To claim that God is unjust, you would have to know God's motive for doing what He does.

Example: Rust and Metalligod have argued, and Rust calls Metalligod stupid.

From what i just told you, can you tell me if Rust was trying to be assinine to Metalligod, or was Rust trying to motivate Metalligod into thinking?

In other words, if you dont know the motives, then they can be either malevolent or benevolent... and its the same with punishment, was it out of retribution or from protection/teaching or even some other reason (because i said, and i told you what the consequences would be).

My definition of justice is seperate from religion (if you hold that all justice comes from God then this conversation is pointless, it cannot be argued from a standpoint of logic).

Should we consider Hitler's fear of Jews or love for his people as just because it was a positive (in his own mind) motivation? If we consider motivations, then we get lost in relativism.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



Also, with God's ability of being all-powerful, He would have the power to seperate His forknowledge from our ability of choice.



Book/Chapter/Verse?

QUOTE Originally posted by ThereIsNoMatrix:

That's like not taking your dog out for a walk and then beating it for peeing on the floor. Yeah, the dog wet the carpet, but it's YOUR fault.

In your "dog" example, the fault depends on if the dog was trained to go pee outside, if it was trained to let you know if its "gotta go", if you know how to recognise its way of letting you know, if you had just let it out--and right after it comes in, it pees on the floor (we have 4 dogs, and one of them is like this).

Anyways, if the bible is literally right, there is a much more unpleasant reality to consider: the fact that I am destined for hell... /QUOTE

and how do you know you are destine for hell? do you have a crystal ball that lets you know that you will never accept Salvation? -- you are still alive, so there still may be hope for you.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

In your "dog" example, the fault depends on if the dog was trained to go pee outside, if it was trained to let you know if its "gotta go", if you know how to recognise its way of letting you know, if you had just let it out--and right after it comes in, it pees on the floor (we have 4 dogs, and one of them is like this).

I'm not talking about dogs.

I am talking about responsibility.

Each thing you named is in God's power, and yet people still go to hell.

QUOTE Originally posted by ThereIsNoMatrix:

quote:

I took the mainstream Christian doctrine of free will as a given for the sake of this argument.

Like i said, i think that freewill has too much emphasis placed on it.

My definition of justice is seperate from religion (if you hold that all justice comes from God then this conversation is pointless, it cannot be argued from a standpoint of logic).

Did i not say that actual justice would be based on motive. Without knowing the motive, it can only be percieved justice. What you think is just, someone else might not.

Look at it this way.. Have you ever heard anyone say something like, "i punched him because he deserved it." or "i hit my breaks because he was tailgating"?... now put yourself in the shoes of the person punched, or the tailgater, do they think they were wrong or wronged?

Should we consider Hitler's fear of Jews or love for his people as just because it was a positive (in his own mind) motivation? If we consider motivations, then we get lost in relativism.

Yes, if we were Judging, we should consider both, and more... mental imbalance perhaps. But the question here is, did Hitler think he was just? I dont know, but he probably justified his actions to himself. So in this case, like all others, judging justness is relative to the perspective. In the case of God, we do not know enough to judge His justness. Like i said before, "In other words, if you dont know the motives, then they can be either malevolent or benevolent."

quote: Also, with God's ability of being all-powerful, He would have the power to seperate His forknowledge from our ability of choice.

Book/Chapter/Verse?

Are you asking for B/C/V for God's nature, or for His ability to seperate?

If you are asking about His nature, then you already can find it yourself... quote:I took the mainstream Christian doctrine....

But if your slow (and i dont think you are), i'll get some for you.

But if you are asking about His ability to seperate the two, then just think about it, <<God's nature of all powerful>>

quote:Originally posted by ThereIsNoMatrix:

I'm not talking about dogs.

I am talking about responsibility.

Each thing you named is in God's power, and yet people still go to hell.

And people still go to Heaven.

BTW, it was your example responsibility, using dogs. And i showed you how you can not know (from what was pointed out) who's responsibility it is. Gotta look at more of the picture, to determine.

oh, and one more thing...

Justice --- When you get what you deserve

Mercy ----- When you don't get what you deserve

Grace ----- When you get what you don't deserve

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

oh, and one more thing...

Justice --- When you get what you deserve

Mercy ----- When you don't get what you deserve

Grace ----- When you get what you don't deserve

So god knowingly setting his creations on a path to hell is an act of grace?

The issue of free will, as I said earlier, is irrelevant to the argument, as either way the central "choice" (whether or not a person accept gods grace) is not in that person's hands, but is completely in the hands of god himself.

Everything that the person will base their decision on is controlled by god, the person has nothing within themselves which is outside of gods control or influence. (even if free will played any part, he only has what god has given him plus whatever grace god grants on top of that)

A person's entire viewpoint, character, and will have been shaped by his life up to that point (we can't choose our origins or what we experience) by god, and therefore god, not the person, is responsible for that person's choice.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



BTW, it was your example responsibility, using dogs. And i showed you how you can not know (from what was pointed out) who's responsibility it is. Gotta look at more of the picture, to determine.

I am not talking about dogs per se, but am using them as a limited example to make a point (dogs do not have free will, anyway).

Suppose you had a child who fought with a neighbor's child each time they were together. If you take your child with you when you visit that neighbor and he gets into a fight, whose fault is it? The child has free will, but would not have fought if you had not placed him in that situation. You did not make the choice for him, but you are responsible for his choice.

It is not just to eternally damn him for your choice to visit the neighbor (to influence his circumstances, and thus his choices).

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

To claim that God is unjust, you would have to know God's motive for doing what He does.

Example: Rust and Metalligod have argued, and Rust calls Metalligod stupid.

From what i just told you, can you tell me if Rust was trying to be assinine to Metalligod, or was Rust trying to motivate Metalligod into thinking?

In other words, if you dont know the motives, then they can be either malevolent or benevolent... and its the same with punishment, was it out of retribution or from protection/teaching or even some other reason (because i said, and i told you what the consequences would be).

Wrong. Since you attribute omnipotence to god, then "motive" becomes irrelevant. He would have the power to carry out his motives, without having to do whatever it is he did that caused people to question his benevolence in the first place.

In other words, if he sends me to hell, you cannot claim he was benevolent because his motive was to teach me a lesson, because he could have taught me the lesson without ever sending me to hell; thus, that he chose not to means he is no benevolent.

Talk to Rust. He will give you some pointers on this subject. In fact, his arguements are much stronger than yours. Namely, your side should hinge on God's omniscients.... i still disagree with Rust, but check with him.

By the way, dogs have the ability to make choices, as do we. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

Right now, my step-daughter needs a backscratch before bed. Good night and God Bless you.

how about this:

as a superior being, god knows every one of the infinite possibilties of your future.

for the record, i am not religious.

Everything you do is your own fault, god or not god.

Pressure can make you WANT to smoke crack but it doesn't put the pipe to your lips.

Every man is responsible for his actions.

I understand the omniscience argument, but I am trying to approach this from another side. Judgement assumes responsibility. Free will does not make you responsible for your actions if an all-powerful god exists.

How does responsibility transfer from the creator to the creation? How?

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

Talk to Rust. He will give you some pointers on this subject. In fact, his arguements are much stronger than yours. Namely, your side should hinge on God's omniscients.... i still disagree with Rust, but check with him.

By the way, dogs have the ability to make choices, as do we. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

Right now, my step-daughter needs a backscratch before bed. Good night and God Bless you.

Isn't free will is reserved for humans by God?

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Wrong. Since you attribute omnipotence to god, then "motive" becomes irrelevant. He would have the power to carry out his motives, without having to do whatever it is he did that caused people to question his benevolence in the first place.

In other words, if he sends me to hell, you cannot claim he was benevolent because his motive was to teach me a lesson, because he could have taught me the lesson without ever sending me to hell; thus, that he chose not to means he is no benevolent.



And by the way, where did the evil that man is supposed to avoid come from? From the will of God.

So what we have is:

1. Beings who have free will

2. A god who knows the future

3. But they can only make one choice because god knows the future, thus making it fixed

4. But god creates man (and his choice) anyways

5. God is all-powerful, but does nothing to change this future

6. Man is damned for choosing the evil that god created.



1. God is all powerful, he controls all creation

2. He is responsible for all creation

Free will is not possible or is meaningless as nothing exists outside of God. Even if god chose for it to exist outside of himself, he is still responsible for it's consequences because he chose not to see the future.

Responsibility still rests with god, regardless of gods choices



and again, how does god transfer responsibility?

[This message has been edited by ThereIsNoMatrix (edited 01-23-2005).]