After an argument with a former friend about her becoming religious, I guess she sent her friend to try and talk some "sense" into my athiest self. Here is a transcript that is too long for you to read.



[HER]: hey

[ME]: ya

[HER]: this is sydneys friend

[ME]: i know

[HER]: oh

[HER]: k

[ME]: was there a purpose to this?

[HER]: well i was gonna talk to you but i got caught up in my history hw

[HER]: so do u understand that hole Judges thing?

[ME]: yup

[HER]: sweet

[ME]: guys came, the one guy said 'dont hurt us, heres 2 bitches for you'

[ME]: they took the whore, left the daughter

[ME]: boned her all night

[ME]: then she got cut up and sent to 12 places

[ME]: Oh baby, there is NOTHING I like better than objectification of women

[ME]: I mean, thanks to the bible, I know that women are nothing but servants to men

[HER]: oh please dont tell me you believe taht.

[ME]: After all, its part of their punishment because Eve ate the forbidden fruit

[HER]: nope.

[ME]: Oh, you dont believe it?

[ME]: It says it in the bible!

[ME]: 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

[HER]: women arent servants to men. that was a period of time thousands of years ago. during that time they were servents to men BY THEIR CHOICE. notice not ALL the women were slaves to them. and the same thing goes on today...hookers sleep with men b.c they want the money or W/E, not b/c god makes them. and women arent punished for Eve eating the fruit. we do have to bear children b.c of it tho.

[HER]: 3:16 of wat book

[ME]: so the bible doesn't apply to modern time?

[ME]: and you think they served men because it was FUN?

[ME]: read the end of genesis 3:16

[ME]: and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

[HER]: the new testament is talking directly to us in this period of time we're living in now. in the bible god refers to different periods of time as administrations. we're living in the grace administration. its the last administration there will be until the return of jesus christ.

[HER]: the old testament is purely for our learning.

[ME]: Oh, so now that jesus has come and died, god got all nice?

[HER]: but only the new testament is instructing us.

[ME]: how convenient

[HER]: nope, god was always nice. more than nice.

[ME]: but he used to kill everybody

[ME]: with plagues and floods

[ME]: and curses

[HER]: ya kno lee(thats ur name rite?)i reely wanan help you, but ur sarcasm makes it pretty hard.

[ME]: Im not being sarcastic

[ME]: Your religion is absurd

[ME]: Is it not convenient that you no longer have to worry about getting your ass kicked by god?

[ME]: Isn't it a lot better that you dont have to subject yourself to men?

[ME]: It is

[ME]: have you ever noticed that all the rules of the god of every different culture (up until separation of church and state) came from the RULERS of their nations?

[ME]: the rules of "god", more liek the rules of greedy humans

[HER]: we never had our ass's kicked my god. god did send plagues, but he was trying to protect the people that loved him from the ppl that were enslaving them.

[HER]: we never had to subject ourselves to men.

[ME]: Thats not what the old testament says

[ME]: did you not read what I just whote like 5 minutes ago?

[ME]: "and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

[ME]: RULE OVER THEE

[ME]: You're telling me that never happened?

[ME]: So you dont believe in your own bible?

[ME]: You must be one of those dirty athiests

[ME]: sydney ran away from me because she couldn't counter what I was saying

[ME]: her "defense" was to ask more questions

[HER]: the ppl that did that were following the devil. if u read examples of gods loving-kindness in the bible, and didnt interpret certain verses to mean wat u want them to mean, u wuld know gods not a big jackass out to get us. that wuld be the DEVIL. and yeah, the devil can make things seem all great for awhile down here, but believe me, wen ur suffering in hell's eternal fires while the ones who beleive in god and jesus are in paradise, life wont seem so great.

[ME]: so you're telling me the devil wrote sections of the bible?

[HER]: hun we shuld not be arguing about this. im trying to help you, but you seem to view wat im trying to take as a discussion of beliefs as a fight!

[ME]: How are you trying to "help" me

[ME]: you're just trying to convert me to your religion

[HER]: no. the part in genesis was saying that women will have babies. wen it said husbands will rule over thee it meant that we'll need the husbands in order to have the kids.

[ME]: and you know what that does? It sets boundaries on my freedom

[ME]: It's all subject to interperetation

[ME]: Mine is the more obvious one

[HER]: im not trying to convert you to my religion, this isnt even my religion or W/E. its wat the BIBLE says.

[ME]: whats your religion?

[HER]: yes but u cant interpret to YOUR understanding. to interpret it correctly it takes ALOT of studying. you cant just read a verse. you have to read the context.

[ME]: the context is that eve did the ultra-sin by eating the fruit, and god punished all women

[HER]: i am christian, non-denominational. dominations are all divisions of chrsitianity, like catholic, methodist, baptist, lutherun, etc. im not any of them. i simply follow gods word.

[ME]: so I make perfect sense

[ME]: How do you know you're following gods word?

[ME]: THE god

[ME]: Has god talked to you?

[HER]: yes god has.

[ME]: what did he say

[HER]: and you know how ur all into that verse in genesis how the "husband will rule over" us?

[ME]: and how did he say it

[ME]: Im not into that verse, I dont believe in that verse, I was saying that to prove a point about how absurd the Bible is

[HER]: ok well u think it is absurd. but read ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

[HER]: and note taht that is the new testament so it is directly talking to husbands

[HER]: well if u read my profile

[ME]: Well isn't that nice

[HER]: ull see that i thank god for giving us the gift of holy spirit

[HER]: wen we believe that jesus christ is the son of god and that god raised him from the dead, we recieve holy spirit

[ME]: it went from husbands ruling over wives, to husbands having to love wives

[HER]: and with holy spirit, we can speak in tongues

[HER]: speaking in tongues is perfect prayer

[HER]: also, holy spirit is wat gets us into heaven. you dont go to heaven based on ur works, or wat u do, like if ur a good person or not.

[ME]: Whats your point?

[HER]: then u can speak in tongues and interpret

[ME]: So, what you're saying is that you can only understand the bible if you believe in it?

[ME]: Well, thats the perfect defense for ignorant slobs

[ME]: I dont believe, therefore I see all that is wrong with the bible and how absolutely stupid and wrong it is

[ME]: but you do, so you're blind to reason?

[ME]: FANTASTIC

[HER]: wen u interpret, its to bless other ppl. b/c tongues isnt a language we can understand.(there are 2 types of prayer, prayer in understanding, like in my profile, wen i say specific things to god, and prayer in the spirit, which is speaking in tongues)

[ME]: Oh hey, check this out

[ME]: Ephesians 5:22

Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

[ME]: Submit yourself to your man as if he were god

[ME]: once again, MAN RULES WOMAN in the new testament

[ME]: All your arguments are matters of faith, Im looking for some fact here, buddy.

[HER]: and so god gives us the words. and then he gives us the words in english so we can understand. its a message to people. for instance, god has said thru me "my children whom i love dearliy, go forth boldy, use my word as ur weapon against the adversary. i will save you from those who try to decieve you. do not stray from my path, but go forth boldly"

[HER]: well u just have to believe lee.

[HER]: we are supposed to submit ourselves to our husbands. we shuldnt cheat on them or submit ourselves to any other men.

[HER]: theres plenty of proof in the bible of gods love.

[ME]: So I must throw all logic and reason out the theoretical window, then submit myself to these lies, right, gotcha. SIGN ME UP

[HER]: once you are able to believe in god, once u let down ur defenses and simply accept him into ur heart, ull be surprised how much he can do for you.

[ME]: I know theres plenty of proof in the bible of gods love

[ME]: theres plenty of proof in the Harry Potter books that Harry Potter knows magic

[ME]: Is harry potter real?

[ME]: I dont think so

[HER]: well you think the bible is lies. you think there is no logic or reason to it. that is ur opinion. i disagree, b/c it says in the bible that it is truth. it also says in the bible that god cannot lie. therefore, the bible must all be true, and wat he says to us must be true.

[ME]: Hahahaha

[HER]: i know it is true b/c i have followed him in my life, and i follow him evryday, and i have seen miracles and i have seen wat he says come to pass.

[HER]: im glad you dont think H.P. isnt real. it most def isnt

[ME]: so if JK rawlings or whatever her name is says that harry potter is true, and harry potter says he is god, and god says he doesn't lie, then harry potter must be god?

[HER]: no way

[ME]: OK

[HER]: im praying for you lee.

[ME]: I took your argument

[ME]: and applied it to another book

[ME]: why doesn't it work this time?

[ME]: Oh please, pray for me

[ME]: I need it soooooooo much

[ME]: go tell your ceiling that this mean smart guy who thinks he knows everything is making fun of your ceiling

[ME]: Oh wait, you bow your head when you pray, dont you?

[ME]: Im sorry, go tell your floor instead

[HER]: b/c harry potter is fiction. there is no proof he ever existed. if we tried to do wat harry potter does, it wuldnt work. for instance if we tryed to fly on a broomstick we wuldnt be able to. but if we try to do wat god says, like he says if we love our neighbor as ourselves we will in return be blessed, if we do that, we find that we ARE blessed.

[ME]: Can you walk on water?

[ME]: Can you heal the sick with your bare hands?

[HER]: no u dotn have to bow ur head to pray. you dont have to clasp ur hands or close ur eyes or anything. those were all traditions created over time by man.

[ME]: what makes you think the entire religion is not frabricated by man?

[ME]: What makes you KNOW

[ME]: have you ever heard of placebos?

[HER]: yes i culd heal the sick. yes i culd walk on water. if god needed me to, he wuld help me. with holy spirit we can heal. i have healed people before. all it takes is faith

[HER]: i love you and i hope you will believe the truth someday, but rite now ive gotta go

[ME]: HAHAHAHA

[ME]: aww, thats so sweet

[HER]: if u wanna learn bout holy spirit go to www.cabsf.com (http://www.cabsf.com)

[HER]: www.cabsf.org (http://www.cabsf.org) *

[ME]: Well, you win

[ME]: Im totally christian now

[ME]: You should probably finish off your history homework

[HER]: are u lying, or are u serious?

[ME]: Oh Im serious as possible

[ME]: Ask god, he will back me up

[HER]: well then im reely glad.

[HER]: thats so awesome.

[ME]: THANKS FOR SAVING ME

[HER]: no problem ttyl

[ME]: later

[HER]: but uh it wasnt me who saved you--its god

[HER]: ok peace have a good nite

It is obvious that she has not studied the Bible enough to relate its teachings and parables to anyone else...

While her intentions were good, and her heart is definitely in the right place, there is a scripture that tells Christians to have an answer for every question, to avoid this kind of public ridicule.

Sure, you can take the most illiterate, uninformed Christian you know, post their conversation with a person that is more intelligent (and just happens to be athiest), and make it seem like we are all that stupid and unintelligent, but the fact of the matter is that it is simply untrue.

I guess you have decided that her less-than-educated viewpoint on the Bible and God solidifies your doubt in His existence, but I think it would behoove you to talk to someone with some actual knowledge before you go judging the entire theology.

It doesn't make any sense to ask a 2 year old to explain an algorithm. You would ask a mathematician, or a scientist.

So, I am just wondering, what were you hoping to accomplish with this post ?

Does it satisfy your suspicions that God is a man-made fairy tale ? Or that the Bible is just a book of stories, designed and written to be used as mind control over brainless masses of people ?

If you really want to convince yourself one way or another, you ought to study it yourself.

Also, your anger serves only to nullify your apparent distaste for the religion of Christianity, because your opinions are loaded. I personally would not risk the eternal state of my soul on unfounded opinions, or human emotion.

I am sorry if this sounds harsh, but I think your post asked for such a response.

It is one thing to disagree (even passionately) with something, but to "hate" it is useless. Ironically, it shows that you truly care, and that this subject bothers you tremendously. I think it should make you curious, if anything, as to why that is.

One last thing: it sounds like you lost your "friend" because of religious differences...I think you should consider the fact that you two weren't very good friends, if you couldn't respect each other's opinion enough to "agree to disagree". She is entitled to her opinion, as much as you are.

You're right on almost all accounts.

Her "less than educated viewpoint" doesn't solidify my doubt in a god's existance, because my doubt is not solid. I'm pretty sure about it, because it seems absurd and against reason, however I know it can't be proven that he does or doesn't exist.

My intentions by posting this? I dont even know. It's not really interesting, and its not funny either. I guess I was just all riled up at how silly all her ideas were.

Why does religion bother me so much? I think it's because people use it all the time to justify hate and take away personal liberties. Also, most people dont even understand their religion (however wrong I think it may be), it shows they're just mindless drones following what they've been conditioned to follow.

I guess I didn't really lose my friend, I dont know. We just argued a lot, we'll probably work things out. We used to talk for like, hours on end every day about all kinds of things. There was even a wee bit of 'romance' in there. Strangely, I dont care at all what the outcome of that friendship is.

The bottom line is that I'm an asshole.

I went to a Christian school when I was younger... just putting that out there.

If I were to talk to a truely intelligent theist about God's existance, I dont think they could offer anything that would change my athiest (almost agnostic) mind.

I like how you didn't just lazily hit me with, "beacuse the bible says so."

quote:Originally posted by unchewed_meat:

You're right on almost all accounts.

Her "less than educated viewpoint" doesn't solidify my doubt in a god's existance, because my doubt is not solid. I'm pretty sure about it, because it seems absurd and against reason, however I know it can't be proven that he does or doesn't exist.

What is your doubt ? Anger ? Confusion ? Loneliness ? Empirical data ? *lol*

It's wise to ride the fence, because that is the only logical thing to do.

However, God gave us faith. (it makes us slightly more responsible for our spiritual decisions)

quote:My intentions by posting this? I dont even know. It's not really interesting, and its not funny either. I guess I was just all riled up at how silly all her ideas were.

You're right...it's not funny. She was horrid.

Perhaps you could have helped her out.

She sounds like a "lifer" (only believes because she was raised in the church, and didn't ever have a moment to think for herself and question it all.)

Then again, maybe she is very eloquent when speaking but awful at typing.

quote:Why does religion bother me so much? I think it's because people use it all the time to justify hate and take away personal liberties. Also, most people dont even understand their religion (however wrong I think it may be), it shows they're just mindless drones following what they've been conditioned to follow.

Actually, based on your original post, I was asking about Christianity alone.

Do you vehemently oppose ALL religion, then ?

I am a non-denominational Christian, by the way. I don't follow any specific "sect". I just try and study the Bible objectively...religion tears people apart, in my opinion.

And I agree. It may sound sadistic, but I usually only trust the authenticity of someone's "faith" if they suffered greatly to achieve it. Perhaps that is because I identify with that scenario, and can't see truly connecting with God without understanding fully what life is like without Him.

For the most part, religion just controls people. It's sad.

quote:I guess I didn't really lose my friend, I dont know. We just argued a lot, we'll probably work things out. We used to talk for like, hours on end every day about all kinds of things. There was even a wee bit of 'romance' in there. Strangely, I dont care at all what the outcome of that friendship is.

So, you're out of the honeymoon phase then ? *grins*

I hope it works out...it's not cool to lose people you've been intellectually connected to.

quote:The bottom line is that I'm an asshole.

At first impression, yes.

Now, I don't think that's true at all. I think you're pissed off about a few things, and needed to get it off your chest.

I also think that underneath, you happen to be sweet.

But enough of that.

quote:I went to a Christian school when I was younger... just putting that out there.

Some of the most horrible people I know came from schools like that...

In my opinion, that's not saying much.

I don't think that God can be taught successfully to children (even teens). There's just too much emotion going on in your teens to think rightly, and not enough understanding when you are a child.

Not to say that salvation can't happen at an early age, I just think it's rare.

It is impossible to make decisions of such magnitude at that age.

It is also incomprehensible what God has done and will do for us without years of study, as an adult.

quote:If I were to talk to a truely intelligent theist about God's existance, I dont think they could offer anything that would change my athiest (almost agnostic) mind.

Well, I would never claim to be able to rise to such an occasion.

I would, however, be failing my God to say nothing at all.

Lemme know if you want to talk outside of Totse some time.

quote:I like how you didn't just lazily hit me with, "beacuse the bible says so."

And I like how you didn't totally misinterpret my response to you, and attack me personally for believing in God.

It was a nice change. *laughs*

Besides, I don't really think "the Bible says so" is the answer to anything.

It's a handbook...a very well-written, meaningful, spiritual handbook.

I just wish there were more theists like you.

Edit: I no longer see the point in arguing over what cant be proven one way or the other. Time to reconcile.

[This message has been edited by unchewed_meat (edited 01-25-2005).]

Reconcile ? You and your ex-friend, or you and me ?

For us to have the need for reconciliation would indicate that there was some sort of adversity between us.

I hardly know you.

Is there a reason you don't want to get in to this topic, when you suggested it to begin with ?

And I am flattered about your comment on my Christianity.

I strive only to be as similar to Christ as I can be, which will never be close.

I fail in many ways, every day.

All I can do is pick myself up, dust myself off, and hope that when the judgement day comes I hear God say to me, "Well done, good and faithful servant."

I would give eternity to hear that. (but I have always been one to wish for things that won't ever come to pass. *lol*)

[HER]: well you think the bible is lies. you think there is no logic or reason to it. that is ur opinion. i disagree, b/c it says in the bible that it is truth. it also says in the bible that god cannot lie. therefore, the bible must all be true, and wat he says to us must be true.

[HER]: b/c harry potter is fiction. there is no proof he ever existed.

...

No comment needed. She owned herself.

God exists, the bible was voted into existence in the 4th century and paid for by Constantine. It's not the world of god, it's the ultimate pacification tool for the masses.

Edit:linky (http://www.deism.com/biblevotes.htm)

[This message has been edited by Monochrome (edited 01-25-2005).]

Monochrome - Is that your official, educated opinion on it ?

Wow.

Hang the bitch and beat her like a pinata!

Whatta waste of cells.

You forgot to include the REBUTTAL: http://www.deism.com/rebuttalbibleorgins.htm

"The Bible was voted to be the word of God by a group of men during the 4th century."

Obviously, this is not a self-evident claim and therefore it needs some sort of historical testimony. Amazingly, Johnson provides no historical testimony at all but merely restates this claim later on in his paper when he says, "The church leaders gathered together at the council of Nicaea and voted the 'word of God' into existence.

"Now, let me just say that this is false for the Council of Nicaea didn't involve disputes about the canon; it involved mainly a dispute about the theology of Arius, which raised in acute form the question of the real meaning and significance of Jesus Christ. Furthermore, the canon as we know it today wasn't even complete when the Council of Nicaea took place in 325. http://www.deism.com/rebuttalbibleorgins.htm

Talk about single-minded (not the writer mentioned above; I'm referring to Monochrome) !

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 01-26-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Reconcile ? You and your ex-friend, or you and me ?

For us to have the need for reconciliation would indicate that there was some sort of adversity between us.



You answered your own question in your second paragraph, there.

I'm off topic because I just dont care about it anymore, but OK, back on topic.

"What is [my] doubt?"

Im not exactly sure what you mean, I think you mean, "Why do you doubt the existance of God?" Well, yeah, theres no 'empirical data' that I've seen. All the "proof" I've ever been handed came from a book I dont believe to begin with (this is focusing more on Christianity).

Do I oppose all religion? Yeah.

"So, you're out of the honeymoon phase then?"

Very well put!

"I don't think that God can be taught successfully to children (even teens)."

I've met some extremely stupid adults as well as teens. Being a non-believer, I can't really say much on this subject. I guess each individual person has to come to their own understanding, rather than being told what to think of this and that. Everything is open to interperetation.

When I said "I wish there were more theists like you", I meant that I wish there were more intelligent and understanding theists like you, but saying that implies that the majority of theists are stupid. In my opinion, they are, but I'm wrong in saying that simply because I targeted only the religious. I gotta change my statement to, "I wish there were more intelligent people in the world."

mmmm... i am kinda in love w/ you by the by...

|x|me|x

What's wrong with husband ruling over wife, and god's wrath in the old testament? god is wrath love and law. He is certainly all three, and so he is certainly wrath.

I hate when people come knocking on the door shooving a religion in my face.

Now they do it online... Damn.

quote:Originally posted by moogoesoi:

mmmm... i am kinda in love w/ you by the by...

|x|me|x

These things happen, you'll be OK.

quote:Originally posted by RELOAD88:

I hate when people come knocking on the door shooving a religion in my face.

Now they do it online... Damn.

You have willingly found yourself amongst the halls of Totse, and more importantly, a RELIGIOUS DEBATE FORUM.

:roll eyes:

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 01-27-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

It is obvious that she has not studied the Bible enough to relate its teachings and parables to anyone else...

While her intentions were good, and her heart is definitely in the right place, there is a scripture that tells Christians to have an answer for every question, to avoid this kind of public ridicule.

Sure, you can take the most illiterate, uninformed Christian you know, post their conversation with a person that is more intelligent (and just happens to be athiest), and make it seem like we are all that stupid and unintelligent, but the fact of the matter is that it is simply untrue.

I guess you have decided that her less-than-educated viewpoint on the Bible and God solidifies your doubt in His existence, but I think it would behoove you to talk to someone with some actual knowledge before you go judging the entire theology.

It doesn't make any sense to ask a 2 year old to explain an algorithm. You would ask a mathematician, or a scientist.

So, I am just wondering, what were you hoping to accomplish with this post ?

Does it satisfy your suspicions that God is a man-made fairy tale ? Or that the Bible is just a book of stories, designed and written to be used as mind control over brainless masses of people ?

If you really want to convince yourself one way or another, you ought to study it yourself.

Also, your anger serves only to nullify your apparent distaste for the religion of Christianity, because your opinions are loaded. I personally would not risk the eternal state of my soul on unfounded opinions, or human emotion.

I am sorry if this sounds harsh, but I think your post asked for such a response.

It is one thing to disagree (even passionately) with something, but to "hate" it is useless. Ironically, it shows that you truly care, and that this subject bothers you tremendously. I think it should make you curious, if anything, as to why that is.

One last thing: it sounds like you lost your "friend" because of religious differences...I think you should consider the fact that you two weren't very good friends, if you couldn't respect each other's opinion enough to "agree to disagree". She is entitled to her opinion, as much as you are.

I like you.

Oh, no ! My plan has failed. *grins*

Just kidding...

Thanks (if you're not being facetious).

Do you have something to add, or respond to, with regards to what you "liked" ?

It's obvious that the thread creator just wanted to vent, and not actually follow through with the conversation (*laughs* - messin' with ya, Meat), so it is now officially "anyone's" thread.

Go for it.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Monochrome - Is that your official, educated opinion on it ?

Wow.

You believe that it was written by God and handed down to earth. I beleive that it was heavily edited to suit the purposes of those in power. Given any other book which is more likely? what makes the bible so special, can it not burn, be torn and read like any other book? Then why is it so different?

I know this is off topic, but I remember reading a while ago about Digital_Savior once being a Buddhist. My question is what made you reconsider and become Christian?

quote:Originally posted by RELOAD88:

I hate when people come knocking on the door shooving a religion in my face.

Now they do it online... Damn.

They wouldn't do it if you didn't visit this forum...

I think he was talking about the girl messaging me to push her religion.