I went to a catholic school from 4th to 6th grade. I hated it. we learned sex ed. I asked if it was possible to have a baby and not have sex.

My teacher told me no. I then proceded to ask how did the virgin mary have a baby? she had to think about that. she said god put it in her. How? i mean you cant just put in in there. She told me that She didnt know but it happened.

I asked a lot of questions and finaly I got the answer I was looking for. YOU JUST DONT ASK THAT!!! she was mad. I mean mad threatened to write me up ETC.

Why dont you ask that?

Cause mary was a slut and you dont model a religon after the baby for a slut. Now a days, it would be written off as a lie.

My real question is.. Why the fuck did they believe her?

quote:Originally posted by bushy:

I went to a catholic school from 4th to 6th grade. I hated it. we learned sex ed. I asked if it was possible to have a baby and not have sex.

My teacher told me no. I then proceded to ask how did the virgin mary have a baby? she had to think about that. she said god put it in her. How? i mean you cant just put in in there. She told me that She didnt know but it happened.

I asked a lot of questions and finaly I got the answer I was looking for. YOU JUST DONT ASK THAT!!! she was mad. I mean mad threatened to write me up ETC.

Why dont you ask that?

Cause mary was a slut and you dont model a religon after the baby for a slut. Now a days, it would be written off as a lie.

My real question is.. Why the fuck did they believe her?



Even Joseph didnt believe her until the angel told him.

Other than that, those that believed, did so because of prophecy (mostly).

Your teacher was wrong, "you just dont ask that" is the wrong answer. If a question is in your head, you've already asked it.. what difference does it make if the question is aloud and directed to someone, or if it is in your head?

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



Even Joseph didnt believe her until the angel told him.

Other than that, those that believed, did so because of prophecy (mostly).

Your teacher was wrong, "you just dont ask that" is the wrong answer. If a question is in your head, you've already asked it.. what difference does it make if the question is aloud and directed to someone, or if it is in your head?

How do you define an angel. In the bible they usualy come in dreams. or at night* implys sleep*

I have had lots of dreams and done my fair share of drugs. joan of arc talked to go through philosophers stone truffles. I have talked to "god" when i have triped. For a while i believed it.

quote:Originally posted by bushy:

How do you define an angel. In the bible they usualy come in dreams. or at night* implys sleep*

Which angels? Arch, principalities, powers, cheriphim, seriphim, or angels?.. But i'm sure that really isnt your question.

I've never looked at angels in the Bible, with statistics in mind. But i am pretty sure that most of the time when angels appeared, it wasnt in a dream (Lot and family, Saul of Tarsus, the women at Jesus grave, the disciples at Jesus grave.. to name a few). If it had been, they would have been shrugged off just as easily as you did.. by implying dream-state or drugs, etc.

I think that your question is meant as more of a statement, "If (good) angels exist then bad angels (devils, demons) could also. If the devil exists, then God exists. And i dont want to believe that cause then i'll have to be good."... Or something like that, right?

Immaculate Conception?

Immaculate Deception, mayhaps?

You have to consider the various languages the bible has been through, including the various seats of power translating it down through generations, not to mention how tricky it is to understand eachother when speaking the same damn language especially concering such metaphysical matters.

One meaning for the word translated into virgin is "Young girl."

Traffic - To chalk it up to misunderstanding is to remove the power of the prophecies given to the people.

God said he would send Jesus...and He said it would happen in specific ways.

One way was that the mother would be blameless, and a virgin.

Do you want the verses ?

You must really study the story before you go making assumptions.

The only assumption I'm really making is the untrustworthiness of language and even-more-so of language's inventor, man.

For example, the greek word for medicine also happens to be poison.

This is more of a "people are stupid" comment then "the bible is wrong" comment.

Isaiah 7:14 - A virgin (Mary) shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Matthew 1:25 - ...but knew her not (SEXUALLY) until she had borne a son; and he called his name Jesus.

Now, it could be said that the Hebrew word for "young woman" was misinterpretted for the Hebrew word for "virgin" ( Almah = "Young Woman", Betulah = "Virgin"), however you cannot misinterpret Joseph's reaction to this whole situation.

The whole rendition of Christ's conception and birth focus' on Joseph's support, and acceptance of a "young girl" whom he was scheduled to marry.

Men didn't just look the other way when they thought their women were whore's back then. To say something to this affect would be to completely misunderstand the magnitude of such a situation, bearing in mind the law and pride of the Hebrew people at that time.

A woman that was found to be unfaithful to her husband was to be stoned to death.

A girl found to be pregnant out of wedlock would suffer the same fate.

Matthew 1:19 - Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily. 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. 22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 23 "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us." 24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: 25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Joseph did what Gabriel, the angel, told him to do when he encouraged Joseph to become Mary's husband.

He also disregarded the implications of his wife-to-be's pregnancy.

The town of Nazareth must have been relentless in their gossip of her condition.

Joseph had every right to be supremely embarassed, and disgusted with her. Why would any human believe that God would impregnate them ?

Joseph and Mary believed...and they remained faithful servants to God's will.

Now I just want to point out some things about why it was necessary for Jesus' birth to be of a virgin.

Jesus' sole purpose was to save people from their sins. But if Jesus had come being born both of a man and of a woman, He could not possibly be the Savior of the world.

If Jesus became a man in the traditional way, He would have been required to identify with humanity's sins because He would have been a sinner like everybody else. If Jesus was going to be our substitute (in sacrificial terms), He could not be a sinner.

Hebrews 2:9 - But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

It was necessary for Jesus' saving work that He come to this earth, and that He identify with mankind and our humanity.

It was also necessary that He had to be sinless, for a sinner can neither discharge himself from the debt of his own sins, nor can he deliver others from their debt of sin. The Lord's unique conception by a virgin prevented Him from having a human father. Because He did not have a human father, the hereditary corruption that comes from a father did not come to Jesus. The imputed guilt of Adam's sin did not come to Jesus. Because He was virgin born and only virgin born, Jesus was not a sinner.

Romans 5:18 & 19 - Therefore, as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation, even so by the righteousness of One the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by the obedience of One shall many be made righteous.

Jesus could not make you righteous if He were a sinner Himself.

1 Corinthians 15:22 - For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

The only way you and I could have life eternal is for someone to pay for our sin. The only way we could have someone to pay the debt for our sin is that person could not have a debt himself.

An account of the angel who appeared to Mary:

Luke 1:30-33 - And the angel said unto her, "Fear not, Mary; for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest, and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

Mary removes any doubt that she was a virgin when she replies:

Luke 1:34 - Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man (sexually) ? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, "The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee; therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."

Alright. I'm tired.

Ask if you need more scripture, or a better explanation.

Adieu...

Something else, Traffic - I have posted the verse MANY times in which God ordains his Word to be perfect, and unchangable in its message, for the entire existence of man.

2 Timothy 3:15-17 “...from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

Mark 13:31 - Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

If you believe that what God tells us in the Bible is true, then you must believe that He will not allow the message He intends for us to hear to be thwarted.

That is, if you believe in God to begin with.

(and I do agree that man has a tendancy to screw things up. But I must say again, God doesn't, and unless He wants His word to be confusing and un-referencable, it won't be.)

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Isaiah 7:14 - A virgin (Mary) shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

I dont have time before work to read this whole post, so i'm glad you put this one up at the top... http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

You may have already covered this in your post, but i think this is very important... if Isaiah's prophecy really only means "young girl", then big deal, young girls concieve everyday....

but if he means "virgin", that is something worthy of prophecy.

Gotta go, God Bless

These passages are only convincing when you take every word of the bible literally. I don't. They're stories with morals and wisdom filled with metaphors and symbols. Even still, some of your points are lacking.

For example; you say he would have been a sinner being born of a father (an argueable claim from my standpoint but I'll do this benefit-of-doubt style.) That he would have had the genetical sin of adam passed down into him. What of the sin passed down into him from Eve through Mary?

Besides that I think being humanity's savior could only benefit from identifying with humanity's sins.

As for the Corinthians quote in "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

I view that as a highly symbollic meaning, because I view the original sin not literally but as a metaphor Man's silly duality judgement. Splitting things into good and evil, man and woman, nature and God, and selfishly trying to distinguish himself amongst them. Jesus was about a selflessness, a surrender into the unity of existence.

quote:Originally posted by I_Like_Traffic_Lights:

What of the sin passed down into him from Eve through Mary?

The Bible explains in Genesis that God held the man, Adam, responsible for sin, even the sin of his wife Eve, and that the sin nature would be passed down through their offspring from father to children. Since Jesus Christ was born of a virgin, He sidestepped the sin nature from Adam but retained the humanity.

quote:

Besides that I think being humanity's savior could only benefit from identifying with humanity's sins.

Christ does identify with us, for He was tempted in everyway that we are tempted, and yet was without sin. Also, while on the cross He took the burden of all of humanities sin upon Himself, so He experienced the sin from everyone, you and I included.

quote:

As for the Corinthians quote in "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

I view that as a highly symbollic meaning, because I view the original sin not literally but as a metaphor Man's silly duality judgement. Splitting things into good and evil, man and woman, nature and God, and selfishly trying to distinguish himself amongst them. Jesus was about a selflessness, a surrender into the unity of existence.

If Jesus Christ's sacrifice was only an example of selflessness, then what makes Him different from any other martyr or suicide?

quote:Originally posted by cerebraldisorder:

If Jesus Christ's sacrifice was only an example of selflessness, then what makes Him different from any other martyr or suicide?

my point.

look past the words to what they're saying

And that, kids, is why we celebrate Alvistide!

God just has a really small cock. She just wouldn't admit it. That's why she wouldn't tell you.