Where the fuck is he? why isnt he fixing the world?

Or would that take out free will? and fuck us all up?

free will is a bogus idea.

[This message has been edited by bushy (edited 01-29-2005).]

California. Too high.

No. No.

No.

Well... http://tinyurl.com/3nnaa

[This message has been edited by Pingy (edited 01-30-2005).]

You are taking a narrow minded look upon this matter my friend. "God" isn't neccissarily a "man in the clouds." Could it be that God is just the force that makes up all that is? God is everything, it is a process, an energy (Tao). The judao-christian metaphor of god is simply that, a metaphor. It is just a symbol used to explain something more complex. A parable if you will.

Take Care

~Thought

without evil, how can you appreciate good?

Without Evil, how can man truly express himself? Please himself? BE himself?

God isnt doin anything because we created God, not the other way around.

quote:Originally posted by Thought:

You are taking a narrow minded look upon this matter my friend. "God" isn't neccissarily a "man in the clouds." Could it be that God is just the force that makes up all that is? God is everything, it is a process, an energy (Tao).

It is possible (since anything is), but improbable.

If this scenario were true, our "creation" would still be a mystery to us (we wouldn't even be able to derive a "theory"), in my opinion.

MOST (if not all) scientist's agree that we "began" at some point.

That particular view would require creation (whether by Big Bang, God, or otherwise).

That would be virtually impossible if God were everything (ENERGY), because that would mean "God" just spontaneously combusted into existence from nothing at the same time that the universe did, and would still require "creation" Himself.

quote:The judao-christian metaphor of god is simply that, a metaphor. It is just a symbol used to explain something more complex. A parable if you will.

Take Care

~Thought

It is a metaphor to you.

Do you chalk up an entire history of men, believing in God enough to DIE for Him, to insanity ? If not that, then what ?

People don't die for causes because they lack conviction/belief.

YOUR belief that God is a metaphor is no more consequential than MY belief that God is very real, and exactly as described in the Bible.

Try avoiding being the resident "authority". (I am just referring to the way you worded your post, not the content.)

By the way, I personally believe that the Bible describes the world in all its complexities just fine. I don't need a metaphor.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 01-30-2005).]

Krispy - You perceive that God isn't doing anything.

It would be unreasonable to say that because YOU don't perceive Him to be doing anything, He definitely isn't.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 01-30-2005).]

take a philosophy class....or even better a philosophy of religion....you'll hear some good arguments for the existence of god....though it's impossible to prove any of them. or disprove them. I like the 'veil of soulmaking theodicy.'

inaction can also be a course of action.

i tell my kids not to do things but know they will cos all kids do.

but i wouldn't always stop them doing things.

sometimes its better for them to learn the hard way.

example

i warned my eldest that sleeping with a certain girl would be a bad move.

'but dad i'm not gonna sleep with her !'

result. he did and she ripped his little 15 year old heart out.

quote:Originally posted by chickenpoop:

take a philosophy class....or even better a philosophy of religion....you'll hear some good arguments for the existence of god....though it's impossible to prove any of them. or disprove them. I like the 'veil of soulmaking theodicy.'



"Veil of soulmaking?" The universe was created but there are phenominom no loger in existence so you cant prve/disprove any of it.

First off, if u haad the power to stop people from suffering, wouldn't u? Next, we all know the account of adam and eve, don't we? God made them perfect with free-will. Satan rebelled and tried to get adam and eve to go along with him. Adam and Eve rebelled. God said that if the eat from the tree of knowledge of good and bad(which they did) in that day they will certainly die.- Genisis 2:17

In that day, adam and eve began to experience things like pain, sickness, aging, and evetually death. Could God not have simply overlooked Adam and Eve’s sin?’ No, because that would have further undermined respect for his authority, perhaps encouraging future rebellions and resulting in even greater suffering. (Ecclesiastes 8:11) Being true to himself, God let adam and eve suffer from their actions. And from inherting sin, all adams and eves children got sin and eventually death.

Now comes the important part: god let humans live out the suffering to prove to the angels, satan and humans that straying from his will is bad. Man cannot direct his own step.Human history is proving that man can rule themselves. for example, pollution is slowly killing the earth, peoples greed make crime and crooked goverment,etc.

Even though god is letting suffering go on for a permitted time, he will step in after he has prove that man cannot rule man. They need his superiority. He promised that a “seed,” or “offspring,” would come who would ‘bruise Satan in the head,’ eliminating once and for all his rebellion and its damaging effects.—Genesis 3:15 That seed or offspring is Jesus Christ. AT 1 john 3:8: The son of god will break up the works of the devil.

A very important prohecy in the bible is the "lords prayer" or the "model prayer" at matt. 6:9,10: Our Father in the heavens, .*.*. let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth." That kingdom is gods heavenly rule which will rid earth of satans desctution.

quote:Originally posted by Thought:

Could it be that God is just the force that makes up all that is? God is everything, it is a process, an energy (Tao).

Take Care

~Thought

Trust in the FORCE your must! Young jedi!

god is that old ass guy that lives in one of your neighbors basement and is a janitor (not like bruce almighty) at your school and one day he will smite us all with a really wet mop

May be god doesn't care. May be he built the bed and we're just shitting in it and we're pissed at him for building the bed.

May be it's all bullshit. May be people who ask questions like that are really self riteous. I mean, what makes you think you're so great that out of all the things to concern yourself with in the world you would be at the top of the priority list.

Cheers,

Lost

This reminds me of a conversation I had with the teacher of my world religions class (course that touched on the basic beliefs of major religions).

We were discussing Judaism, and the whole story of how God led Moses and the Jews out of slavery and saved them because they were his chosen people.

I asked my professor "if the Jews are God's chosen people, and he's willing to perform miracles to save them, why did he let Hitler kill over 6 million of them?"

He couldnt give me an answer.

It seems with alot of christians (mostly catholics) that any time something good happens, it's because God willed it, and when something bad happens, it's "part of god's plan," which is the most obnoxious excuse I've ever heard.

So if God gives us free will and wants us to live our lives on our own, then no, he wouldnt interfere with anything. And if that's the case, well then that completely contradicts a good deal of the Bible, especially the old testament.

quote:Originally posted by bushy:

Where the fuck is he? why isnt he fixing the world?

Or would that take out free will? and fuck us all up?

free will is a bogus idea.





First one would need to define 'god', I'm sure the ancient greeks who worshipped Zeus and the Pantheon were just as sincere as we, and they were obviously highly intelligent. To them Zeus was real, as is Allah to his mulit millions of followers. In theory god could be whoever or whatever the individual chooses to serve. Could be your car, or your spouse, or money or perhaps even yourself -- "Everybodys got to serve somebody" (Dylan) But if you are talking of the common concept of god as a superperson, that god is illogical and obviously an anthropomorphic projection of the human mind.

Without free will how could civilised society govern by laws? What would we say of the murderers, 'he had no free will so murder must be a consequence of cause and effect and thus not his responsibility?'

I don't give a shit what all you guys say. God is real. If you look in the bible or at church, all is explained. Evolution? God created us as little animals and helped us through evolution. The big bang? How the hell do you think god made the universe? He triggered the big bang. The bible is a little bit inaccurate at times, because it was written by several people spanning over the period of thousands of years. And scientists are also right most of the time, they just come up with any bullshit they can think of to lead minds away from the bible to explain their discoveries.

The gods will not do for men what men can do for themselves.

Deus does not exist

but if he does he'd want to get

down from that cloud

first marzipan fingers

then marble hands

more silent than silence

and slower than slow

diving towards me

quote:Originally posted by TheMessiahComplex:

I asked my professor "if the Jews are God's chosen people, and he's willing to perform miracles to save them, why did he let Hitler kill over 6 million of them?"

He couldnt give me an answer.

Your professor didnt realize that the Jews have turned their back on God? And that God said He would turn His back on His people until they sought Him?

I know this is incomplete for this topic, but i should really be with our guests:

John 1:10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

god works in weird ways.

Because you don't understand the concept of God. You think God as some bearded man in the sky that can just "fix" all the problems going on in this world.

If you don't think of him as that, but as something else, then you'd understand.

I'm not going to explain because it's hard to be put into words and I can't be bothered.

Now stop making these stupid fucking threads when you have the intellect of an ape.

quote:Originally posted by redzed:



First one would need to define 'god', I'm sure the ancient greeks who worshipped Zeus and the Pantheon were just as sincere as we, and they were obviously highly intelligent. To them Zeus was real, as is Allah to his mulit millions of followers. In theory god could be whoever or whatever the individual chooses to serve. Could be your car, or your spouse, or money or perhaps even yourself -- "Everybodys got to serve somebody" (Dylan) But if you are talking of the common concept of god as a superperson, that god is illogical and obviously an anthropomorphic projection of the human mind.

Without free will how could civilised society govern by laws? What would we say of the murderers, 'he had no free will so murder must be a consequence of cause and effect and thus not his responsibility?'



Despite the cause of the illegal action, the action itself was done and the person is still responsible. Cause and effect is just something we perceive, so obviously you cannot say anything is a consequence of "cause and effect".

quote:Originally posted by fragman1:

I don't give a shit what all you guys say. God is real. If you look in the bible or at church, all is explained. Evolution? God created us as little animals and helped us through evolution. The big bang? How the hell do you think god made the universe? He triggered the big bang. The bible is a little bit inaccurate at times, because it was written by several people spanning over the period of thousands of years. And scientists are also right most of the time, they just come up with any bullshit they can think of to lead minds away from the bible to explain their discoveries.



What about the universe being some 10,000 years old, as the literal bible interpretation would say? Or how there can possibly be a wide range of species on isolated islands and for that matter, animals all over the world if the whole flood incident actually occurred? In fact, the whole noah's ark thing is just ridiculous if you think about it for 1 minute.

quote:Originally posted by TheMessiahComplex:

This reminds me of a conversation I had with the teacher of my world religions class (course that touched on the basic beliefs of major religions).

We were discussing Judaism, and the whole story of how God led Moses and the Jews out of slavery and saved them because they were his chosen people.

I asked my professor "if the Jews are God's chosen people, and he's willing to perform miracles to save them, why did he let Hitler kill over 6 million of them?"

He couldnt give me an answer.

It seems with alot of christians (mostly catholics) that any time something good happens, it's because God willed it, and when something bad happens, it's "part of god's plan," which is the most obnoxious excuse I've ever heard.

So if God gives us free will and wants us to live our lives on our own, then no, he wouldnt interfere with anything. And if that's the case, well then that completely contradicts a good deal of the Bible, especially the old testament.

I agree with your last statement, a deist view definetly does contradict much of the bible, thus my first stepping stone to rejecting christianity myself.

As someone pointed to earlier the "Jewish struggle" is Yahweh's punishment of his chosen people for their infidelity to the covenant.

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:

May be god doesn't care. May be he built the bed and we're just shitting in it and we're pissed at him for building the bed.

May be it's all bullshit. May be people who ask questions like that are really self riteous. I mean, what makes you think you're so great that out of all the things to concern yourself with in the world you would be at the top of the priority list.

Cheers,

Lost

i dont think im that great

quote:Originally posted by KikoSanchez:



What about the universe being some 10,000 years old, as the literal bible interpretation would say? Or how there can possibly be a wide range of species on isolated islands and for that matter, animals all over the world if the whole flood incident actually occurred? In fact, the whole noah's ark thing is just ridiculous if you think about it for 1 minute.

The majority of the bible is ridiculous if you think about it for a minute, and think of it happening, literally as its told, today. its just a bunch of stories created to keep people in line and to behave civily in society.

quote:Originally posted by KikoSanchez:

In fact, the whole noah's ark thing is just ridiculous if you think about it for 1 minute.

But if you think about it longer than a minute, you say "wow, what an AWESOME God!!". And then you think.. "is it possible?" and "besides God's Word, do He leave other evidence?"

And then, when you think about even longer, you get to the point of, "With all this evidence, how can so many still not see?"

Then you spend countless hours tilling soil and spreading seeds on TOTSE.

quote:Originally posted by chickenpoop:

[Bits just a bunch of stories created to keep people in line and to behave civily in society.[/B]

Think about what you've said, "for a minute"!

Ancient society and modern, use might for keeping people in line.

Also, just as in todays world people believed or not. And just like today, to varying degrees. And just like today, people lied, cheated, stole, hurt others, etc... both believers and non-believers--- its called sin and it is really a rebellion against God.

And, just like today, some people capitalized on the situation. Some were religious leaders, others were political leaders and some were just plain ol' moms and dads.

The fact that people used the Word of God for their own benefit, does not corrupt the Word or make it a fairy tale.. it just makes it harder for some people (like yourself), to believe. This is called a 'stumbling block'.

Another stumbling block is when someone says, "I believe.." and turns around and gets caught doing something that the Faith is against. Many non-believers call this hypocrisy, but what it really is, is the sinful nature of man.

semantics. first, i'd say it's usually been the believers who employ the term hypocrisy. second, it IS appropriate usage when someone contradicts their expressed beliefs. it may or may not be a stumbling block for others, but it most certainly is hypocrisy.

irregardless of whether or not the person gets caught, it is hypocrisy. in fact, to suggest even in the slightest way that it is only hypocrisy once caught seems a betrayal to my understanding of the christian notion of faith.

also, it's very simplistic to imply that might is the sole instrument used to guide and curb the behaviors of people. chickenpoop's point is valid, in that psychological manipulation through propaganda - whether for just or unjust purposes - is much more effective and efficient for controlling society.



[This message has been edited by Eil (edited 02-08-2005).]

QUOTE Originally posted by Eil:

semantics. first, i'd say it's usually been the believers who employ the term hypocrisy.

I've mostly only heard non-believers cry hypocrisy, and mostly just in TOTSE. Although, a few times in the real world, i have heard both use it, and usually it is when a preacher is caught molesting.. along those lines.

irregardless of whether or not the person gets caught, it is hypocrisy.

True. But if no one knows about it, they cant quite cry "hypocrite"... and i dont think i've see anyone call their own actions hypocritical... even though we all are at times.

in fact, to suggest even in the slightest way that it is only hypocrisy once caught seems a betrayal to my understanding of the christian notion of faith.

my point was not that of being caught, but rather the sinfulness of man's nature

also, it's very simplistic to imply that might is the sole instrument used to guide and curb the behaviors of people.

Yes, i was being simplistic, mostly from lazyiness, but also for the sake of shortness.

Just as simplistic as saying that that was the reason religion was 'invented'?

Look at the way people are today..(men mostly, but not solely, but mostly men since they were/are usually the rulers then now) trying to get there way through intimidation. Tough is "cool", even in today's "politically correct" world. Even many women pride themselves of being "queen bitch" or whatever. But in history, the majority of manipulation seems to have been through the use of power.. or threat of power.

The two biggest differences of "now and then" are the education level and affluence/leisure level of common people.

chickenpoop's point is valid, in that psychological manipulation through propaganda - whether for just or unjust purposes - is much more effective and efficient for controlling society.

Efficient? Yes. But I'm very doubtful that it was the reason rather than something noticed and exploited.

"...something noticed and exploited."

that's all i was getting at, and if you look at chickenpoop's post, that's also what he seemed to be saying.

"The majority of the bible is ridiculous if you think about it for a minute, and think of it happening, literally as its told, today."

so now it's just a question of the degree of exploitation... hence, my claim that you were arguing semantics.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



I've mostly only heard non-believers cry hypocrisy, and mostly just in TOTSE. Although, a few times in the real world, i have heard both use it, and usually it is when a preacher is caught molesting.. along those lines.

the bible is littered with the word 'hypocrisy'. historically, religious institutions murdered many people because of this word and others like it (e.g., blasphemy). but whatever, neither of us have statistics on who uses the word more, so the point is moot. chalk it up to a difference in life experiences.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



True. But if no one knows about it, they cant quite cry "hypocrite"... and i dont think i've see anyone call their own actions hypocritical... even though we all are at times.

yup, but i was countering your statement that 'Many non-believers call this hypocrisy, but what it really is, is the sinful nature of man.' so you apparently concede that point with an irrelevant caveat.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

my point was not that of being caught, but rather the sinfulness of man's nature

i wasn't accusing you of that, just sharing a thought that occurred to me which i felt was important to emphasize.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

Yes, i was being simplistic, mostly from lazyiness, but also for the sake of shortness.

Just as simplistic as saying that that was the reason religion was 'invented'?

good point. i wouldn't touch that. except perhaps to say that clarity goes a long way towards being succinct AND avoiding the need for repetition.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

Look at the way people are today..(men mostly, but not solely, but mostly men since they were/are usually the rulers then now) trying to get there way through intimidation. Tough is "cool", even in today's "politically correct" world. Even many women pride themselves of being "queen bitch" or whatever. But in history, the majority of manipulation seems to have been through the use of power.. or threat of power.

The two biggest differences of "now and then" are the education level and affluence/leisure level of common people.

power is very different from what you initially implied with the word 'might'.

i'd say that ALL manipulation has been possible through the use of power, as manipulation is, by definition, the exercise of power. just as you can't pick up a rock if your arms are weak, history has proven you can't manipulate a population if your mind is feeble... no matter how many whips you crack at them.

Talking about Noah's Ark-

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

But if you think about it longer than a minute, you say "wow, what an AWESOME God!!". And then you think.. "is it possible?" and "besides God's Word, do He leave other evidence?"

And then, when you think about even longer, you get to the point of, "With all this evidence, how can so many still not see?"



With all respect, that is retarded.

There is no evidence of the great

flood, other than older stories in

older religions, which is where the

jews got it from.

Really, did Noah sail all over

dropping off kangaroos down under,

cobras in Africa, giant centipedes

in Brazil...?

There is evidence of localized floods

in the Tigris-Euphrates region.

(probably the origin of the myths)

If free will is a bogus idea, then just kill yourself...after all it was meant to be. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

But seriously...

What makes you think a God actually has an obligation to enforce the flimsy morality which human reason or emotion can come up with? Is a God bound to the same moral standards which we try to place on ourselves?

If there's no free will, then what good is morality? The choice between good and evil wouldn't be ours but God's...and God is never wrong. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:Originally posted by bushy:

Where the fuck is he? why isnt he fixing the world?

Or would that take out free will? and fuck us all up?

free will is a bogus idea.



the pain and suffering we go through is not in vain. it is nessicary and very likely (in my opinion) that we chose to be exactly where we are today.

if indeed some sort of "god" exists, it is not doing anything to "help" us because in reality it would be depriving us of valuable lessons/knowledge/challenges.

believe whatever you want. but i think things are exactly the way they should be http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Thought:

You are taking a narrow minded look upon this matter my friend. "God" isn't neccissarily a "man in the clouds." Could it be that God is just the force that makes up all that is? God is everything, it is a process, an energy (Tao). The judao-christian metaphor of god is simply that, a metaphor. It is just a symbol used to explain something more complex. A parable if you will.

Take Care

~Thought

actually thats exactly the way ive thought of god. just never really put it into words like that http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

so then could it mean that jesus, who claimed to be the "son of" god was more or less reffering to humanity in general. we are all "of god" basicly.

there should really be a thread on this...