The Liberal Press is on a crusade to make you believe that Islam is a peaceful and soft religion..... but, what says the Koran?

quote:

Sura 005.033

YUSUFALI: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

PICKTHAL: The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;

SHAKIR: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement, (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html)

In Islam youre supposed to kill Infidels (unbelievers).

I guess Allah cant do it himself http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Sniper Piper:

The Liberal Press is on a crusade to make you believe that Islam is a peaceful and soft religion..... but, what says the Koran?



Sura 005.033

YUSUFALI: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

PICKTHAL: The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;

SHAKIR: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement, (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html)

In Islam youre supposed to kill Infidels (unbelievers).

I guess Allah cant do it himself http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)



I think that would be considered a radical statement that is not fit to represent any whole religious group.

-mike

Except every religion that reads, interprets, and acts on each of it's scriptures as literal.

Most Muslims dont take the Koran literally. The few who do are Islamic Fundamentalists, who do take it literally.

The core philosophy of Islam is quite amazing, I don't like Western religions, but if I had to chose one, I'd chose Islam, I would be a Sufi. Islam is great, except those few who twist it to their purpose.

They can kill infidels in self-defence. When there is no war Islam is a religion of peace. You took it out of context.

quote:Originally posted by Krispy:

Most Muslims dont take the Koran literally. The few who do are Islamic Fundamentalists, who do take it literally.

The core philosophy of Islam is quite amazing, I don't like Western religions, but if I had to chose one, I'd chose Islam, I would be a Sufi. Islam is great, except those few who twist it to their purpose.

I like the Sufi branch, it has some characteristics of Zen Buddhism. Lolita (wonder where she disappeared to?)and I talked about this several months ago.

I haven't seen Lolita since literally the day I got here.

First thread I ever posted at Totse was in here, on Buddhism. It was a long one too.

quote:Originally posted by Loc Dogg:

They can kill infidels in self-defence. When there is no war Islam is a religion of peace. You took it out of context.

Well we weren't at war with them when they started attacking our bases, embassies and ships in the 70's...yet their jihadi and mujahadeen have been attacking us "in defense" of their religion. thats bullshit. They hate our lifestyle and culture, which we don't impose on them (or at least didnt). They think we are all so immoral over here, compared to them and their sense of morality, we are. but they don't have to watch baywatch, or dress like whores and eat pork and whatever the fuck else their problem with us is. By them attacking us because of what we do they are imposing their will on us, which is what they say we are doing to them. if we really are the infidels and devils that they believe we are, they should be content in their conviction that we are going straight to hell when we die.....I think i got kinda sidetracked here....so just disregard this....

quote:Originally posted by chickenpoop:

Well we weren't at war with them when they started attacking our bases, embassies and ships in the 70's...yet their jihadi and mujahadeen have been attacking us "in defense" of their religion. thats bullshit. They hate our lifestyle and culture, which we don't impose on them (or at least didnt). They think we are all so immoral over here, compared to them and their sense of morality, we are. but they don't have to watch baywatch, or dress like whores and eat pork and whatever the fuck else their problem with us is. By them attacking us because of what we do they are imposing their will on us, which is what they say we are doing to them. if we really are the infidels and devils that they believe we are, they should be content in their conviction that we are going straight to hell when we die.....I think i got kinda sidetracked here....so just disregard this....

Beware of stereotyping http://www.totse.com/bbs/eek.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/eek.gif)

I am a muslim. I could probably answer most claims made against Islam, but I am not really interested in doing that, unless there is some sincerity and willingness to learn.

In the original post, someone quoted [5:33], which was about the varying punishments against those who wage unjust wars. Anyone who has a problem with that verse, is either against self-defense, or a hypocrite.

Cheers!

-[Soofi]

quote:Originally posted by Soofi:

I am a muslim. I could probably answer most claims made against Islam, but I am not really interested in doing that, unless there is some sincerity and willingness to learn.(...)

Excellent. From the tenor of your post I'm almost certain you're more open-minded than that nutcase PrinceCharmant1980.

I was, in fact, open for a little cross-cultural learning if you were interested.

quote:Originally posted by chickenpoop:

Well we weren't at war with them when they started attacking our bases, embassies and ships in the 70's...yet their jihadi and mujahadeen have been attacking us "in defense" of their religion. thats bullshit. They hate our lifestyle and culture, which we don't impose on them (or at least didnt). They think we are all so immoral over here, compared to them and their sense of morality, we are. but they don't have to watch baywatch, or dress like whores and eat pork and whatever the fuck else their problem with us is. By them attacking us because of what we do they are imposing their will on us, which is what they say we are doing to them. if we really are the infidels and devils that they believe we are, they should be content in their conviction that we are going straight to hell when we die.....I think i got kinda sidetracked here....so just disregard this....

My muslim friend thinks you're funny.

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:



First thread I ever posted at Totse was in here, on Buddhism. It was a long one too.

Yep, I remember that one. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Shiantar:

Excellent. From the tenor of your post I'm almost certain you're more open-minded than that nutcase PrinceCharmant1980.

I was, in fact, open for a little cross-cultural learning if you were interested.

I am not sure who PrinceCharmant1980 is, but that's not too important. I realize there are some eccentric muslims, who take general misconceptions to be an accurate presentation of Islam because of their lack of exposure to objective knowledge. Anyway.

It would be my pleasure to answer any questions you have, and to engage in a fruitful dialogue with you.

I am interested to know your location, and any beliefs you are passionate about, or general views about faith, and God, etc. Thanks.

Take care.

-[Soofi]

quote:Originally posted by Soofi:

I am not sure who PrinceCharmant1980 is, but that's not too important. I realize there are some eccentric muslims, who take general misconceptions to be an accurate presentation of Islam because of their lack of exposure to objective knowledge. Anyway.

It would be my pleasure to answer any questions you have, and to engage in a fruitful dialogue with you.

I am interested to know your location, and any beliefs you are passionate about, or general views about faith, and God, etc. Thanks.

Take care.

-[Soofi]

'princecharmant1980' was (or is, I should say) a convert to Islam who seems to hold some of the more radical beliefs associated with militant practises. Most notably, he seems to have no problem with the killing of Westerners and, short of that, that Christians, Jews, etc. are only good for dhimu status.

I am a Canadian by birth, and I imagine that's where I'll stay.

I myself am an agnostic -- that is, I don't know if there is a God, nor can I prove or disprove it to my own or anybody's satisfaction.

That being said, it's not as though I'm faith-less. I believe in things like universal humanism and humanitarianism, human rights and equality. Not so much because they're doctrines or commandments given by God, but because they make good common sense in a world where we all have to get along and remain peaceful toward one another.

quote:Originally posted by Shiantar:



That being said, it's not as though I'm faith-less. I believe in things like universal humanism and humanitarianism, human rights and equality. Not so much because they're doctrines or commandments given by God, but because they make good common sense in a world where we all have to get along and remain peaceful toward one another.

Thanks for your answers. You have a noble attitude and outlook on life, that is commendable.

I myself was born in the UK, I lived in England for most of my life, but I have spent a considerable amount of time travelling to various countries in my short stay on this blue jewel. It's definately an eye opening experience, to see the diversity in life, aswell as to identify with a common longing that is found within each and every heart at the inner most being.

I believe life is not just for existing, but for living. To connect with other souls, and to speak to their hearts, without pretenses and masks. It would be a crime to deny anyone our love. Humanity is but distant brothers and sisters to each other. I once heard, that the heart is like a parachute.... it works best when open.

Anyway. I must go for now. Feel free to ask any questions about anything.

Peace,

-[Soofi]

quote:Originally posted by Soofi:

(...)Feel free to ask any questions about anything.

Alright ... I have (at least) one question which might bear some thought.

Do you find some trouble reconciling the notion that the Qu'ran is the final, eternal, and unchanging word of God

- and -

the notion that most natural things evolve or change over the course of their existence in order to better suit their environment?

What I mean is this: On the one hand, there are some Muslims who practise such literal and narrow interpretations of the Qu'ran(and violently oppose any other) that they risk either being constantly at odds with their fellow human beings or that they risk hampering their progress into a more modern world.

On the other hand, there are Muslims who are devoutly observant to matters of prayer, fasting, pilgrimage, alms, and inner struggle but who also view the Qu'ran more metaphorically than literally and have a (comparatively) easier time living with or among nonbelievers or critics.

There has been some talk among intellectuals and scholars that Islam, short of becoming the only faith on the face of the earth, must itself undergo a reformation of sorts or risk colliding with the world's non-Muslim population in some kind of war. We see some evidence of this today, in global politics and on a more local scale in your towns and mine.

(This is not to say that there is anything necessarily wrong with Islam (or Christianity, or Judaism, or Hinduism, or any major or minor religion or even secularism) -- merely that a problem of ideaologies exists and should be addressed)

As a humanist and an agnostic I can honestly say that if it were myself and I had a choice between being pious and being humanitarian, I'd choose my humanitarian obligations over any supposed obligation to God any day of the week. If I could prevent such a war in that way, I'd do it -- but then again, that's just me.

On a more practical note, I sometimes wonder if the Qu'ran (or any religious manuscript or message which was recorded in comparatively ancient times) can continue to provide insight into every aspect of human life if the nature of human life continues to change. I liken it to an attempt to extract an infinite amount of wisdom from a finite amount of information -- you can see the dilemma forming on what might be a very distant (but visible) horizon.

But I'd like to hear what your thoughts were on this subject. Do you find some friction between the obligations of being both a Muslim and a member of a pluralistic global community? Do you think Islam itself can (or even needs to) change? Why or why not? In what way? Do these things have relevance to other major global religions?

(edit -- spelling)

[This message has been edited by Shiantar (edited 02-05-2005).]

Well, you could make the same arguemnt that Christianity and Judaism are not peaceful religions by delving into the Bible (specifically the Old Testament)

"Then Jael Heber's wife took a nail of the tent, and took an hammer in her hand, and went softly unto him, and smote the nail into his temples, and fastened it into the ground: for he was fast asleep and weary. So he died."--Judges 4:21

"And the LORD hearkened to the voice of Israel, and delivered up the Canaanites; and they utterly destroyed them and their cities: and he called the name of the place Hormah"-- Numbers 21:3

"Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD.

Let them melt away as waters which run continually: when he bendeth his bow to shoot his arrows, let them be as cut in pieces.

The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked"--Psalms 58:6-7, 58:10

Now I'm not saying that Christianity or Judaism is an inherently violent religion, I'm just saying if Christians and Jews can shrug such passages off, why not Muslims?

[This message has been edited by Garibaldi (edited 02-05-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Tesseract:

My muslim friend thinks you're funny.

I try to please.

Hey, sniper piper, I think I just kicked your ass in CS, KA WC3 server.

Islam is just a bunch of B.S. It promises that this is god's 'pure' revelation, unlike the jewish and christian texts that have been skewed from the truth. They say that the j/c texts were the revelation, but have been changed by man, making them unpure. What bullshit...so the Koran is THE CORRECT TEXT? This would absolutely mean that the jewish/christian texts at their origin would have to have been EXACTLY AS THE KORAN IS. The only way around that is if the almighty God supposedly decided to change all of his word and revelation to man. But this idea is absurd, judaism was made purely for the ethnic jews and their relationship to god and christianity teaches to love thy neighbor as thyself, not to kill him if he doesn't believe in your god. Furthermore, look at the who started the whole religion, Muhammed. He was an illiterate, child screwing, militant. He spread his religion literally BY THE SWORD and married a 14 year old for god's sake. Lastly, can you really take a religion seriously that says alcohol is not allowed, while stating that in heaven will be 'rivers flowing with wine', not to mention an infinite number of pre-pubescent girls and boys to fuck endlessly. In case you're wondering, no this is isn't coming from a christian/jewish bias, I am agnostic and take the latter 2 religions as bs as well.

Shiantar,

Thanks for your post. There are a few things, so I'll try to answer them in general, without quoting each specific point.

I believe the Quran is the final, unchanging and eternal word of God. I do not feel any trouble in reconciling that with the present situation of the world, the changes in our lifestyles, or the knowledge that we posses about the material universe.

The Quran is not against evolution, nor promotes it, but rather, is neutral. One can derive from the Quran, that macro-evolution is not true, but on the other hand, one can also derive that it is true. For example, in the Islamic tradition, we believe that God has revealed to us 99 names/attributes/qualities of Himself. Some of these include, The Living, The Seeing, The Hearing.. and more importantly, The bestower of forms, and The Evolver. Ofcourse, this is the closest English translation of the Arabic words, but the meaning is close enough. Also, there are verses in the Quran, where it says God created and fashioned humans out of the earth/clay like a Potter, suggesting the gradual formation. So it is a matter of interpretation and faith. I think a few muslims tend to be against evolution, since there is a negative stigma attached to it, of being the doctrine of the Godless immoral atheists who can do what they please.

Micro-evolution (within the same species), has been observed, so it would be unreasonable not to accept that, since it does not infringe on anyone's faith. It should be seen as a mercy.

Personally, I am neutral on the issue, it doesn't interest me much. I could tell you that I believe both views are correct in some sense, but it would probably confuse you more than it would help.

The violence and wars which are going on today, are politically motived, but cloaked in religion. The reasons for hiding behind religion are many, I'm sure you know, and some of the most notable ones being that it soothes the troubled conscience, increases morale, and helps with recruitment. There is a rather famous interview, of a German from the nazi era.. I think you will know about it.. and basically he says that its easy for the leaders to drag their nation into a war.. and all they have to do, is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacafists for lack of patriotism. Many are quoting this today, in relation to the current actions of the Bush administration. However, if we look carefully at the other side, the same thing is happening, except that religion replaces nation. The radical element are appealing to the muslims by spreading the view that 'the west' is waging war on Islam. If anyone does not join their ranks, they denounce them as apostates.

I do not believe there will be a problem for muslims to live side by side with non-muslims. The violent type are a small minority compared to the 1 billion+ muslims around the globe. If the violent ideology was synonymous with Islam, the world would be a very different place. Alas, today the spotlight is on muslims, so one needs a discerning eye to get an accurate view of the reality. Storms come and go. This one is no different.

Islam as a religion, a doctrine or philosophy, does not need to change or be reformed. The real reformation has to be in the people who claim to follow this faith.

Good morals are timeless, and apply just as much now as they did in the past.

According to the Quran, Islam is not a new religion, but sent from God as the revival and unifier of the essence of all faith. It is said, that there have been around 124,000 Prophets sent to guide mankind, in every city, up til the last Prophet Muhammad. The message from God has been consistent with all the messengers, but people tend to revert to their old ways, and can corrupt or tamper with the teachings to suit their own desires. Therefore, it is said in the Quran that God will protect the Book from any corruption Himself, since it is the final revelation. Abraham, Moses, and Jesus are all considered Prophets of God in Islam. The jews and christians are classified as the 'People of the Book' and are afforded special rights under an Islamic state.

I believe there is an infinite amount of wisdom in the Quran, although it may appear as a finite Book. But what is the real Quran? Is it a stone inscribed, or a leaf of paper?

It is said that God first fashioned Adam from the earth, and then breathed into him of His Spirit. This Breath of God, it is believed, has all the knowledge and wisdom since it is from none other than God. As humans, we live by His name/attribute Al-Hayy (The Living). However, while this spirit/soul is of remarkable nature, when it was joined in companionship with the body, it had to reside with an ego. The material seeks material gratification, while the soul longs to reunite with it's divine origin. In this 'marriage' of the body and soul, there has to be a delicate balance. Sometimes the 'lower self', can be more dominant and overpowering... and this can manifest, for example, in the form of a person stealing from the poor in his greed... whereas, had his spiritual nature been most active, he would be donating to them. If you keep in mind this principle, it may help to understand that it also applies in other aspects, such as worldly and divine knowledge. The divine element will always be superior to the worldly element, because the Divine is ultimately the source of the worldly matters.... but if a person forgets about their true essence, and only see's material existence, they become limited in their capacity to perceive the many realities and realms of existence.

The real Quran, therefore, is in the Divine Presence. It's knowledge with the Soul. It is not the Book made from paper. The Quran that the person holds in his hands is merely a shadow of the real Quran, which is within his being. When a person reads the Quran from his hands, he is really looking into a mirror of his own heart. If a person approaches it with an ill intention, lets say, to find an inconsistency, then he will see one. Jesus said; Seek, and ye shall find.

The Quran is only as limited as the capacity of the reader. It speaks on many different levels, and has many layers of meaning embedded within. An analogy which someone has used, is that of a person standing at a shore looking at the ocean.... he sees waves, turbulence, some fishes and birds, but he asks, "where are the pearls?" One must not only look from outside, but dive within.



I hope I have addressed most of the issues you enquired about. Actually, I just noticed you asked about living as a muslim in a world of diverse people.. and if I can quickly just say, there is no problem or difficulty with that. In the Quran it instructs muslims to treat others with justice and kindness. It is a muslim belief that humanity was once a single unit, but split into different tribes and nations, with God's leave, so that we may get to know one another. So in that sense, I would say that one cannot be pious without also being a humanitarian.

Let me know if there is anything else, or if you would like some clarifications. Even if you are wondering about the general stereotypes/misconceptions, do not hesitate to ask.

-[Soofi]

quote:Originally posted by Soofi:



(...)There is a rather famous interview, of a German from the nazi era.. I think you will know about it.. and basically he says that its easy for the leaders to drag their nation into a war.. and all they have to do, is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacafists for lack of patriotism.(...)

Ah yes ... Hermann Goering. Despite the fact that he was undoubtedly one of the worst perpetrators of injustice the world has ever seen, his observation was essentially correct.

A related axiom was spoken by Edmund Burke -- "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

Religous or secular, eastern or western, we need more people like you and I in this world. Your thoughts are truly quite insightful and mature (unlike, sadly, some of the things which others have mentioned in this same forum). I think if there is to be some measure of world peace, there must be people like you and I on both sides of the issue, promoting the concept of openness and dialogue rather than suspicion and prejudice.

quote:Good morals are timeless, and apply just as much now as they did in the past. (...) The real Quran, therefore, is in the Divine Presence. It's knowledge with the Soul. It is not the Book made from paper. The Quran that the person holds in his hands is merely a shadow of the real Quran, which is within his being. When a person reads the Quran from his hands, he is really looking into a mirror of his own heart.(...)

Yes ... I too have always held the notion that morality and ethics are a reflection of inner feeling and empathy -- those things which come from the heart or the soul.

I'd much rather have someone come to a realization of morality or ethics from a careful examination of their conscience than by simply saying "because it is written."

I must say -- you've restored my belief that perhaps the world isn't so badly off as I'd thought.

As for my questions, you have answered all that I can think of at the moment, and expertly answered as well.

So I guess we'll leave it at that for the time being, until other questions arise.

Until that time, asalaamu alaykum.

SniperPiper...jihad is a holy war for peace. It's true. They kill to get rid of the evil (in their perspective). Please try to empathize before throwing a generalisation around, dicklick.

Thank you for your greeting of peace and kind comments, Shiantar.

While the world may appear as a battlefield at times, it may be worth considering that some dislikeable things are necessary for greater purposes which we may not be able to perceive at this time. The Cosmos is an ocean of love, but we must be open and receptive to that love, to be drinking from it.

The conscience, according to Islamic belief, is a sign, that we will be called to account for our actions one day. It therefore acts as a reminder to follow the good side in our being, and feels troubled when engaged in some wrong. It is not much different to the Christian saying of; "the law is written on men's hearts". Religion is only a reminder of that, and a source of peace for the people.



Happiness is not far away. It is very close. There is a divine light which resides in the heart, but it can be hidden behind the shields and masks we put up in our efforts to assimilate with the people around us. Sometimes it can take an external mirror to show us the faint voice calling on the inside. Do not be afraid to fall in love. It can be painful at times, which is necessary, but it is bearable when you have drowned in that divine love. Every rose has its thorn.

I look forward to any other discussions you might like to have, even if it's related to something else from religion.

Take care. God bless you.

-[Soofi]

quote:Originally posted by Soofi:

It is said, that there have been around 124,000 Prophets sent to guide mankind, in every city, up til the last Prophet Muhammad.

-[Soofi]

This seems unbelievable that up till Muhammad there were 124,000 prophets and none afterward!

Is Allah all-knowing? Is Allah all-powerful? Is Allah's presence everywhere?

quote:Originally posted by redzed:

This seems unbelievable that up till Muhammad there were 124,000 prophets and none afterward!

Is Allah all-knowing? Is Allah all-powerful? Is Allah's presence everywhere?

Yes, yes and yes.

It does seem strange that there were 124,000 prophets and then there were none after Muhammad (or is it Mohammed? I'm not sure), but they had to stop somewhere...

Stoyve

to all the muslims, your not fooling me. most claim there is a difference between the ones who call us "white devil" and the ones who are "peaceful" and vice versa. all muslims are racist. bin laden told black people "his war is with the white man".

and white muslims are traitors. and coming around me preaching your bullshit, is a good way to get your brains blew the fuck out. im not fooled, and i know you feel the same way is bin laden, your just to pussy to act on your feelings. i follow my own version of the christian bible. i dont consider myself a religion, but i follow a mix of the bible, and teaching of niccolo machiavelli. i believe murder, and killing are two totally different things. basically murder is for material things, money, and self gain, killings are everything else. i believe in killing people like muslims, mainly. and i believe god doesn't have a problem with that. i think he would prefer us to kill, in order to have an entirely christian world.

and again, muslims, your not fooling anybody with that peace bullshit. the truth is the US government, and cia, and government owned media, is on your side, and thats why their giving you this peaceful image. the cia, along with al quieda, was behind ALL the 9/11 attacks. look at the video in "conspiracy" i posted.

"these niggas really got me trippin with that bullshit/ my daddy taught me no playing in the pullpitt/ so for the bullshit/ i brought my goon squad/ pass me my ammunition, and praise god, against all gods/ i'll make these motherfuckers pay/ lord give me the strength to knock these niggas out my way/ every day/ i been praying for my chance/ a mean ass mug in a soldiers stance/"

pastor troy, universal soldier.



[This message has been edited by ace86 (edited 02-07-2005).]

what doesnt do the muslims many favours is the public image that they portray themselves. You see far more muslim marches against western society than you do condemning the fundamentalists. There are many more muslim seperatist organisations than of other religions and that most muslims would class themselves as Muslim (as opposed to Arab, malaysian etc...) shows that their religion is far more prevalent than in other civilisations.

I read in a paper in malaysia how the prime minister was urging on the progress of muslims in the world as opposed to the progress of malaysia, so obviously the religion plays a large role in even relatively relaxed states (you cant even drink if youre a muslim there). Something that puts a restraint on someone (with their choice not coming into the matter) is not laudable.

@Ace; You say all muslims are racist while your entire post is nothing more than unfounded prejudices against Muslims. There are fanatics in every group. Bin Laden and the other 'terrorists' are those fanatics. You don't hear about the law-abiding muslims on TV because there is no story there. People are interested with action, and that's what these fanatics offer. On the other end we have G.W.Bush +admin. manipulating the gullible American public with fear and threats of more attacks when even Bin Laden asks for nothing more than for the US to leave the middle east (his home) alone. I don't condone what Al'Quida/'Terrorists' have done, the attack was inhumane and a poor tactical move. However the US has done the same to the Mid.East before 9/11 to incite the attacks.

@Liquid; Can you blame them for hating the US. Hell, if any nation attacked my country I'd be willing to defend my home, and I'd show my dislike for the invaders! Once again there are the fanatics who kidnap aid workers and make demands; the true Terrorists who should be saught out and killed. They give their people a bad name. But simply because a group of people identify themselves in a religious manner rather than by a geographical one is no reason to put them down.

-I am not playing favorites between the Americans/Christians vs the Arabs/Muslims, it doesn't matter to me. I disagree with the politics of both sides and I realise that the average person is being manipulated on both sides! But I must say that this conflict was not initiated by the Muslims/Arabs/Terrorists, that was simply the time the American public found out about it. The conflict began with the Americans imposing their power over areas in the Middle East. The 9/11 attacks were a retaliation!

well obviously i can only comment in a relative position, that is by comparing islam to my own situation, and as a non practicing catholic i am not forced to do anything (i havent been to church for probably 10 years) or told that i cant do as i want on religious grounds (as in drinking).

I can understand Iraqi's or Afghanis not liking the US, but why Muslims in general? What does the US do to Indonesia? Yet you have constant protests against the us there. It also strikes me as a little backwards to oppose the formation of a state on religious grounds (as opposed to political) as many muslims do in the case of Israel.

Religion should be allowed and respected, but not when it infringes on other aspects of life. Any non - muslim by definition does not beleive the word of the Koran (which goes without saying) so should we really have to put ourselves out (like building mosques, restricting christian ceremonies etc...) to accomodate what to my (and any one else who is not a muslim) mind is a fanciful delusion?

@Liquid; Hey, I'm atheist. I don't put any trust in any religious institution be it Catholic or Muslim. However I do agree that in a community with a large enough populace of muslims/catholics there should be a mosque/church to accomodate.

As for the Indonesia comment, their mentality is different from our western view. They identify themselves more through their religion rather than through their state, it's different but not difficult to understand. Anyways, it's not only the muslims that dislike the US, hell half of the world dislikes/distrusts the United States! Middle-East States in particular considering how the US has already attacked and conquered 2 nations in the area. One of which they did for nothing more than personal gain (Iraq = Oil = Money/Power, not to mention 'unfinished business' and having a power position in the Mid.East).

quote:Originally posted by redzed:

This seems unbelievable that up till Muhammad there were 124,000 prophets and none afterward!

Is Allah all-knowing? Is Allah all-powerful? Is Allah's presence everywhere?

Ofcourse, no one is compelling you to believe it.

From my limited perspective on this issue, some have explained that mankind had socially and morally evolved to such a state, that there was no need to send Prophets after.

However, that does not take away general guidance, in the form of saints and spiritual authorities, who perform similar tasks to the previous Prophets. The difference being in that Prophets received revelation, whereas the people today receive inspiration.

-[Soofi]

quote:Originally posted by ace86:

to all the muslims, your not fooling me.

There is no need to fool you. You do a good job of that all by yourself. LOL

-[Soofi]

Liquid,

I think you have a misunderstanding of what the religion of Islam is, and what the muslims do as ordinary people.

Islam should not be judged by the actions of muslims, but rather, it's authentic sources, like the Quran. What would be better, is to judge the muslims by the true teachings of Islam.

There is no restriction on others for practising their own form of faith. If one is not a muslim, they can drink alcohol.. provided they do it discreetly and do not cause a public disorder in their drunken state.

Christians are not restricted from their religious ceremonies. The Quran has quite clearly mentioned churches, synagogues, and mosques as houses of God, in which God's name is remembered.

Anyway.

----------------

P.S. Dubz, good posts.

-[Soofi]

i dont agree that religion should be judged as you say. I am sure that the koran is a beautiful and benevolent piece of text but any religion should be judged in its present day context. While i am not stupid enough to believe that all muslims are war mongerors there are still some shortcomings of religion. (all religions, but whereas every country has devout christians with many muslim states it seems to be de rigeur).

I have been to Egypt and Malaysia and in both countries i had to buy drinks for the people i was hanging around with because they could not get served (not that they couldnt buy it through their own religious choice) because they were muslim. I dont know about Egypt but in malaysia you are born a muslim. Half the people i chatted to hated the fact that they were not allowed to do as they wanted as they were forbidden to by a religion that was forced upon them at birth, while holoday makers in their country of other faiths WERE allowed to drink.

Im sure its the same with christians in Utah, but like i say its not the standard of christian countries.

quote:Originally posted by liquid:

but like i say its not the standard of christian countries.



Most countries with large muslim populations are in a mess, no doubt. However, to analyze a religion objectively, is to consult its authentic sources. Anything other than that, is not objective. If I were to judge Islam by the muslims, I would not be a muslim myself. It was through self discovery and a personal quest in learning about this faith which convinced me of it's truthfulness.

Anyway.

-[Soofi]