i just feel bad for them because instead of thinking maybe their god wants them to enjoy themselves (and of course be kind to other people), they feel like they have to devote their entire lives to them and follow their every command or else be punished. every waking moment and every thing they do is for god and about god and within his "guidelines" for living. what kind of life is this where you have to worship someone, follow their every command or else be punished? to me, this seems a lot like how our world used to be. if you didnt follow the leader(s), you were shunned/punished/killed. back then free thought was a crime, and so was free will. of course we can always do what we want, but most religious teach that if we do whatever we want and not what we are told, we will be punished.

this is sad to me because this can only make people scarred of their own god. scarred that if they mess up, and dont do exactly what is expected of them regardless of personal circumstances, they will be severly punished.

i remember when i was little i was constantly scarred of going to hell (technicaly i am a christian) and i would pray like crazy. not out of love, because i was young and obviously couldnt begin to comprehend the universe like i do now. all i understood was what all little kids understand; fear. i didnt want me, my friends or my family to go to hell and whenever i saw anyone do something "wrong" i would think they might go to hell.

later i got thinking, if i was god, i would be much more compationate than any god ive read about (except maybe budda?). this ultimately changed my views but its way to long to get into now.

i guess i just wish religion moved in a new, more peaceful direction for a change..

hopefuly this isnt too badly writen since its my first thread here in a while, but ive been up almost 24 hours now..

couple notes:

-obvious there probably should be some repicussions for doing wrong to others as that is the only real crime. but i suspect the "punishment" is more self-inflicted and not dealt out by any higher being.

-with the exception of buddhism, i probably didnt mention a few religions that are entirely peaceful. i dont know much of anything about the religions that arent more "mainstream".

Most religious people I know don't live in fear.

I really think you have no idea what you're talking about.

I feel bad for people who believe in god, due to their ignorance. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

I don't believe everyone worships God out of fear. I don't believe everyone has the same concept of what constitutes worship either.

It's true that some people will mis-use the threat of hellfire to keep people in line, but it's not a reason to worship or serve God. There are countless reasons to be grateful for what one has, and what one has been kept away from.

Someone once said, " the Law is not here to reform the Heart, but to restrain the heartless. "

Is hellfire punishment for the sake of punishment? or is it an extended metaphor for purification? (and a warning)

In Islamic tradition, it is said that God is most merciful of those who show mercy. To demonstrate this in understandable terms, the Prophet of Islam told the people, when God created the creation, He inscribed a rule of mercy for Himself which we can understand in two aspects. Firstly, God divided this mercy into a 100 parts, and bestowed one part of this mercy in our existence. It is this mercy which is said to be keeping each heart beating, and the love alive between the mother and child, and everything else in our reality. How strong is the love which a mother has for her child? The remaining 99 parts of the mercy of God is being reserved for the Day we pass away from this world, and all our actions in this life, including the good, aswell as the bad and the times we hurt others is made known to us. The second aspect which should be understood, is that God stated; "My mercy prevails over My wrath".

I am not here to give the full implications of such, and what their interpretation is, but one who sees with the heart, may realize that God is not a despot or a "cosmic Saddam Hussein", as some have tried to say.

At times, it gets on my nerves to see religious zealots doing a disservice to their faith and God, by turning away good hearted people, with their rigid and unmerciful practice of faith.

However, if anyone is sincere to understand a reality of God which agrees with their heart, they should remember this much; One's opinion of God, reveals more about the person, than it does about God. So when someone is unforgiving and condemning others to hell in every breath, that does not mean God is like that. The one who judges like that, should fear their own standard of judgement, because it may well be that God will have him judge himself, and what verdict will come of such a person?

For me, religion is not about rules, it is about mercy and a sanctuary where hearts can grow in safety. A place, where the heart does not become hardened and a monster if it gets wronged in some way. The place where a heart can heal, and love like it has never been hurt before.

Worship is not about grovelling on your knees in fear, but in servitude with a clean heart. What is this servitude? It is when you love without selfish reasons. It is when the young boy helps an old lady across the street. It is when the husband places a morsel of flesh in his wife's mouth, using his hand, with complete love and devotion. This is the precious worship which the religion is really calling for. It's value is also in it's rarity.

When you love someone, who is it that you are really loving? Is it energy and matter in the form of a person? Or is there another person behind that mask of particles, a soul, that breath of God, which one is loving? Is that not also worship?

One who is serving God's creatures is serving none other than God.

-[Soofi]



[This message has been edited by Soofi (edited 02-14-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by xxshadowxx:

I feel bad for people who believe in god, due to their ignorance. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

Help me understand what you are trying to say. Is it that people who believe in God are ignorant, or is it that you feel bad for those who believe in God, because of some ignorance?

If it is the former, can you kindly explain the reason, as it will be appreciated and may enlighten some of us. lol

-[Soofi]

Soofi's right.

I don't feel bad for anyone who has made a religous decision, pursued it, and is happy. They did what they wanted, and thats good.

[This message has been edited by Krispy (edited 02-14-2005).]

I don't see it that way and I think a lot of people don't see it that way.

I, myself, am athiest. Well, more agnostic. But, try telling someone who knows nothing about religion (which is about 90% of the population) that you're agnostic... They don't get it. But, I see people - even people with blind faith - who have so much faith that it makes them stronger in times of weakness. They're beliefs can be so strong as to help heal physical wounds.

It may be psychosematic, but it's still something.

And I think that's a good thing.

I think anything that makes you feel better about yourself and your life/death is a good thing.

Cheers,

Lost

Stop automatically equating religion with Christianity, shithead.

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

Stop automatically equating religion with Christianity, shithead.

Shithead was uncalled for, shit head.

Cheers,

Lost

Sorry, talking to Clifford.

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

Stop automatically equating religion with Christianity, shithead.

in this case shithead is right

I agree im not afraid of my God. I surely do respectyhim, but im not scared THAT much of what i do thats bad becausei dnt do alot of evil things. Even though He says that He is obligated to forgive me if i ask though.

So i agree that you dont know what your talkingabout because, from what it sounds like, you arent a religious person. So why even bother talking about it?

BTW, your definition of religion is basically doing what that authority say or face the consequences. Am i right? Then wouldnt the government and its laws be your god then, by that definition?

I dont mean to throw flaming poo at you or your thread but i just want you to think.

i think god is pretty much anything you put all your trust and call up to pretty much protect you from harm, be it anything from jesus to guns to money.

I agree with your statement, clifford, I also feel bad for anybody that lives in fear of their god or anybody else.

But most people don't see their god as a ruler or as an entity of control, they see their god as a guide, a friend, or even more like a father, and I am happy that those people can exist in peace with their beliefs, and I am slightly jealous that they are 100% confident in their beliefs too, because I as an athiest, am not so confident in my beliefs.

i see god as pretty much the guy/being that created me, and who i will someday return to, between those two, he will be guiding me and helping me.

btw, im a muslim (converted from christianity)

quote:Originally posted by xxshadowxx:

I feel bad for people who believe in god, due to their ignorance. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

you know, i am almost envious of people who worship a god. that they can give their lives so much meaning and happiness just by having unwavering faith in something that may not exist. it gives their lives purpose.

and unfortunatly we need religion to keep some people in check. the only way some people will treat other people well and not kill people is because that god,s teaching.

it is unfortuante that some need a God to make them a decent person, and that is the primary source of them being a good person.



[This message has been edited by TheDivineShaft (edited 02-14-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by mistro5000:



btw, im a muslim (converted from christianity)

Would you mind saying a little about how you converted.. i.e. what was your frame of mind, before and after, what caught your attention, or made you stop and think, to convert? What was it like etc?

Don't feel obligated to answer though, but it would be nice to share your experience, even in a few words.

-[Soofi]

As for the vulgar comments, I don't think they are appropriate. Clifford didn't seem to display any ill intent, but is just slightly misinformed about what religion may, and can be.

Aslong as one is sincere, they should not be scolded like that, even if they are wrong. We do not know any upbringing but our own. It is quite possible that one had a bad experience with religion, and that could cloud one's judgement.

-[Soofi]

quote:Originally posted by TheDivineShaft:

just by having unwavering faith in something that may not exist.

Do you believe it is possible that some of these people may have met God? or that God revealed Himself to them in some form or capacity?

Many religious people believe, but having faith, and certainty of faith is another matter. I don't believe one can have certainty without some form of evidence, (even subjective), otherwise the mind would always keep doubts lingering.

One thing I have realized, is that there are things which humans dare not even imagine to ask God for. What is holding them back? If someone makes a prayer inside their heart, to God, asking for some sign, a real, genuine, and completely sincere prayer, will God hold back? Would you hold back if in that position?

But there must be some sincerity. Words alone do not produce a cause-effect reality. Sincerity is in the heart.

Something to think about.

Peace,

-[Soofi]

I don't think that God is worried about people devoting their lives to Him, just as long as they follow the Golden Rule, which is treat people the way you want to be treated. As far as I'm concerned, that is devotion. Other than that, I think that God is cool with anything you do, just as long as you don't hurt yourself or other people. And also, fuck all of that trying to convert people to your religion bullshit, I think people should just let other people be and not interfere with their religion. The Church just wants more members and influence, that's all. Fuck I hate religious fanatics claiming that everybody not part of their religion will go to Hell. Btw, I'm Christian myself.

PS: I'm not afraid of God, and I don't think the He punishes you, I think that he just lets you punish yourself. "I AINT AFRAID OF YOU MU'FUCKA!" LOL.

[This message has been edited by $tinger (edited 02-15-2005).]

Actually for the most part He does let you unish yourselves through your sinful actions. But then again you cant always attribute lets say a robbery of your toolshed on sinful actions (Whether or not you did sinful activies in said shed)

Then again remember the Great Commision from Jesus. It applies to us today. So i have to disagree that churches justwant more money/members/whatever...

Any ideas of God, what God desires, what God demands, etc., is crap. Therefor, any religion is crap. Man made all imaged thoughts of God and Religions. Each man made idea demands a "True God" for another "True Religion." Just another joker thinking life is a narrow one way street.



Anyone think they know what God wants? They must also know what money wants, what gold wants. Let's face it, it all boils down to what Man wants.

To worship anything is bad. Worshipping is a sickness. Think about it, what is good to worship? Surely not some idea in your head.

And that's where your gods and religions exist. You might build a temple and claim god lives there...but hey, it's all in your head. Where does Islam exist? In your head.

Some power or energy has spiders weaving webs and birds building nests, but to think you know the desires and nature of it...you think it is a man? Your thoughts and feelings are a man's thoughts and feelings...so, oh yeah, rumors are facts and you think god's thoughts. How nice of you. I bet you can even speak for him.

spirituallity is harmless if irrational side to human beings, it's when power hungry rich people harness spirituallity and turn it into organised religion that the shit turns sour, the churches are just a tool for fascists to suck money and the will to rebel from the population. then you end up in a situation like in early 20th century spain where the whole country just goes stale because the church is sucking so much money out of people and reacting against new ideas. in spain there was a massive reaction to this in 1931, and then a counter reaction and then you have one of the most repressive dictatorships the world has ever seen for the next 35 years.

so yes religion is THE biggest danger to freedom.

I mean, God is a Him, right? Just like you.

Perhaps a She, just like Her? Nonetheless, we always seem to be looking into some mirror for insite to our gods.

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:

I, myself, am athiest. Well, more agnostic. But, try telling someone who knows nothing about religion (which is about 90% of the population) that you're agnostic... They don't get it. But, I see people - even people with blind faith - who have so much faith that it makes them stronger in times of weakness. They're beliefs can be so strong as to help heal physical wounds.

You pretty much summed up what I thought, too. Personally, I dont think a god exists. I think people who blindly follow it are idiots. HOWEVER... oooh, however, theres a flipside. I'll give everyone a visual:

When a womans husband dies, she's going to be absolutely devistated. Moreso if they die voilently, like, say, a car accident, or something. However, just the THOUGHT, or the IDEA, that he's gone to "heaven", or the thought that maybe "god" is helping her, is enough to pull her thru it. When she's having a hard life, she can talk to "god", and even though she's not actually talking to anyone, just the thought of somebody watching over and listening to her is going to make her feel better about it all.

People want to think they have meaning and direction in life. They want to think that everythings going to be ok, and more importantly, people in general, simply can't handle the truth.



So, I suppose then, religion helps people deal with the harsh reality of life and more importantly, death. In a sense, that's a good thing for some people--people who can't live on their own, and need someone to hold their hand thru life. Come now, how do you think the aspect of eternal life in heaven came about? Look all thru human history. People have been trying just about anything to escape death and live forever. First it was mummification and herbal remedies, and now it's organised religion. I'm suprised more people havent put 2 and 2 together. Then again, most religions tell you not to question it.. just get in line.. let them do all your thinking for you.

[This message has been edited by :tru (edited 02-16-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Clifford the Big Red Bong:

i just feel bad for them because instead of thinking maybe their god wants them to enjoy themselves (and of course be kind to other people), they feel like they have to devote their entire lives to them and follow their every command or else be punished. every waking moment and every thing they do is for god and about god and within his "guidelines" for living. what kind of life is this where you have to worship someone, follow their every command or else be punished? to me, this seems a lot like how our world used to be. if you didnt follow the leader(s), you were shunned/punished/killed. back then free thought was a crime, and so was free will. of course we can always do what we want, but most religious teach that if we do whatever we want and not what we are told, we will be punished.

this is sad to me because this can only make people scarred of their own god. scarred that if they mess up, and dont do exactly what is expected of them regardless of personal circumstances, they will be severly punished.

i remember when i was little i was constantly scarred of going to hell (technicaly i am a christian) and i would pray like crazy. not out of love, because i was young and obviously couldnt begin to comprehend the universe like i do now. all i understood was what all little kids understand; fear. i didnt want me, my friends or my family to go to hell and whenever i saw anyone do something "wrong" i would think they might go to hell.

later i got thinking, if i was god, i would be much more compationate than any god ive read about (except maybe budda?). this ultimately changed my views but its way to long to get into now.

i guess i just wish religion moved in a new, more peaceful direction for a change..

hopefuly this isnt too badly writen since its my first thread here in a while, but ive been up almost 24 hours now..

couple notes:

-obvious there probably should be some repicussions for doing wrong to others as that is the only real crime. but i suspect the "punishment" is more self-inflicted and not dealt out by any higher being.

-with the exception of buddhism, i probably didnt mention a few religions that are entirely peaceful. i dont know much of anything about the religions that arent more "mainstream".

dude you just decribed the life of a slave... but yeah i agree. HEY FAGS THAT BELIVE IN GODS!!!!!! GET YOUR HEAD OUTTA YOUR ASS!!!! THERES NO SUCH THING AS A GOD!!! IGNORANT FOOLS!!!!!!

-me

quote:Originally posted by 4leafbullet:

dude you just decribed the life of a slave... but yeah i agree. HEY FAGS THAT BELIVE IN GODS!!!!!! GET YOUR HEAD OUTTA YOUR ASS!!!! THERES NO SUCH THING AS A GOD!!! IGNORANT FOOLS!!!!!!

-me



i think the only thing we could really call god would be "the force that makes up everything". this doesnt make it intelligent (atleast not in the conventional way) and certinly doesnt mean its punishing people.



anyway, sorry i havent replied i forgot about this post and i didnt read more than like half of the first page of replies. ill finish up tomorrow.

but i think soofi and lost cause are right. i didnt really make some things clear enough so let me just set something straight.

what i ment was, i feel bad for those who feel like they have to worship because they fear going to hell or the equivilant. obviously anything that makes you happy (so long as it doesnt affect anyone in a negitive way) it can be nothing but good.

another thing i forgot to mention was how i dont like how people use this to convert/keep people in line. this especialy pisses me off when they use this to ensure children will always follow the cause.



theres probably more i need to respond to but i cant stay awake anymore.. ill check this in the morning.

Religion is free from criticism as to whether its reality does not exist. It can always stay seperate from that simply because the things that it says and teaches typically can not be disproven. Sure, some of the specific literal interpretations of things can be disproven, but there are always overiding ideas and new interpretations that can take its place.

Religion is not meant to be believed as fact because its not! Religion's purpose is to try and help people live happy lives. If you take it as something that should be tried to be disproven like a scientific theory that can only lead to trouble, and has many times in the past a well as right now.

To all of you who say so confidently that god or other spiritual beings do not exist, prove it! You can't. You know why? Because the spiritual world is supposed to be completely seperate from the physical. It can't be counted quantitatively so it can not be disproven. It is explained in such a way in most religions that if some scientist or logician says "heres why it can't exist" the religion's explanations can easily be changed or "clarified" to fit the new scientific or logical theory.

Lastly, IMHO Buddhism I think is the best at the goal that I have previously mentioned. It manages to stay seperate even from other religions by not interfering with whether or not a God or gods exist and by not immediately saying you must disbelieve all other religions. From what I have seen and read, it is very tolerant and very wise about how to be truly happy.

As I have said, religion simply exists to help people live better lives and, IMHO, should not be interpreted for any other purpose.

Most of you will say God does not exist.

You will say this because science seems to start to disprove him.

WRONG. Albert Einstein, Newton and a very large proportion of scientists still believe in God... Do you know why?

Becuase they have seen for themselves how the universe works, and it is enlightening.

The whole Big Bang and universe created after it can be summed up and worked out with:

E=mc²

Its that simple, how everything was made can be summed up in in 3 letters and a small number.

You tell me that there is not a higher organisation behind that, how it can be so simple.

"When the solution is simple, God is answering." Albert Einstein.

"Numero pondere et mensura Deus omnia condidit"-God created everything by number, weight and measure.

Newton.

"Scientific views end in awe and mystery, lost at the edge in uncertainty, but they appear to be so deep and so impressive that the theory that it is all arranged as a stage for God to watch man's struggle for good and evil seems inadequate."

Richard P. Feynman

(Quite possibly one of the most intellegent men alive. He does papers on Quantum Mechanics.)

"Not only does God play dice, but... he sometimes throws them where they cannot be seen."

Stephen Hawking



Now you cant argue.

quote:Originally posted by l337:

Most of you will say God does not exist.

You will say this because science seems to start to disprove him.

WRONG. Albert Einstein, Newton and a very large proportion of scientists still believe in God... Do you know why?

Becuase they have seen for themselves how the universe works, and it is enlightening.

The whole Big Bang and universe created after it can be summed up and worked out with:

E=mc²

Its that simple, how everything was made can be summed up in in 3 letters and a small number.

You tell me that there is not a higher organisation behind that, how it can be so simple.

"When the solution is simple, God is answering." Albert Einstein.

"Numero pondere et mensura Deus omnia condidit"-God created everything by number, weight and measure.

Newton.

"Scientific views end in awe and mystery, lost at the edge in uncertainty, but they appear to be so deep and so impressive that the theory that it is all arranged as a stage for God to watch man's struggle for good and evil seems inadequate."

Richard P. Feynman

(Quite possibly one of the most intellegent men alive. He does papers on Quantum Mechanics.)

"Not only does God play dice, but... he sometimes throws them where they cannot be seen."

Stephen Hawking



Now you cant argue.

1. No were their does it say that these people belive in god. The above seems like half of them are making fun of christianity.

2. Half of those are bullshit and i want references of were you got them.

3.Your a dick head. E=mc2 means Energy equals mass times the speed of light squared. This is a proven theory that states how a small amount of matter can be turned into a large amount of energy, thus the big bang theory, its not just a piece of shit someone pulled out of there ass like you make it out to be.

While science does not say that god doesnt exist most scientists belive he doesnt.

So before you start claiming shit look it up first and so you dont same i did the same here are some link.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/1929/einsteinquiz.htm http://www.aip.org/history/einstein/voice1.htm http://jeromekahn123.tripod.com/thinkersonreligion/id8.html

This one i liked.

My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment.

Letter to M. Berkowitz, October 25, 1950; Einstein Archive 59-215

Oh and the link to. http://condor.stcloudstate.edu/~lesikar/einstein/short.html

quote:Originally posted by l337:

Most of you will say God does not exist.

You will say this because science seems to start to disprove him.

WRONG. Albert Einstein, Newton and a very large proportion of scientists still believe in God...

Who gives a fuck? First of all, Enstein and Newton are dead. Get over it! They don't believe anything anymore. Second of all, the existence of God is something that can never be disproven because there is nothing testable about the idea of a consciousness that defies definition. If it can not be defined or tested, it can not ever be disproven.

Since nothing can ever be truly proven either, that means the question of God's existence, or even the existence of anything spiritual, can never be answered. That means the opinions of some people, who are extremely smart and insanely good at what they do, hold no more truth than your own or anyone elses opinion on the matter.

In short, science is no closer to bringing us an answer to questions dealing with spirituality, such as the existence of a god or gods, than it ever was or ever will be since it can not be used to attempt to explain such things.



quote:Becuase they have seen for themselves how the universe works, and it is enlightening.

They have not seen for themselves how the universe works. They were not there to witness the big bang. They did not have instruments set up when that happened to collect data. I'm sorry, but what they have given us is a flawed, albeit incredibly elegant and useful, theory about the way the world works.

That is all science gives us and that is all that it can give us. It is a way to create theories that do an adequate job of explaining the way the world works in a form where it can be useful to us. It is not meant to provide solid, definate, true answers to lifes burning questions. It is just here to give us as close an approximation as we can have given the current state of our technology.

[This message has been edited by Bobsyouruncle (edited 02-18-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Fai1safe:

1. No were their does it say that these people belive in god. The above seems like half of them are making fun of christianity.

2. Half of those are bullshit and i want references of were you got them.

3.Your a dick head. E=mc2 means Energy equals mass times the speed of light squared. This is a proven theory that states how a small amount of matter can be turned into a large amount of energy, thus the big bang theory, its not just a piece of shit someone pulled out of there ass like you make it out to be.

While science does not say that god doesnt exist most scientists belive he doesnt.

So before you start claiming shit look it up first and so you dont same i did the same here are some link.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/1929/einsteinquiz.htm http://www.aip.org/history/einstein/voice1.htm http://jeromekahn123.tripod.com/thinkersonreligion/id8.html

This one i liked.

My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment.

Letter to M. Berkowitz, October 25, 1950; Einstein Archive 59-215

Oh and the link to. http://condor.stcloudstate.edu/~lesikar/einstein/short.html

Those Scientists are very much believers in God. They have said many many things involving the idea of a God. I never said a God was a man in a golden chair. Its just something higher we can not comprehend, the thing that holds all together, the reason for everything. There MUST be a reason why gravity is there, why E=mc² can be used for anything in the universe, there must be something holding this and keeping it true. We call it God.

"God does not play dice" and whatever others you can think of not even trying if you can.

I dont rmember the actual sites, but they were something like "Quotes.com" and obvious ones like that. Look them up on google if you wish.

And I know what E=mc² is you shit.

It took years and years to derive, but it is still only E=mc². It had to be derived and proven, which Einstein did very well.

Your Einstein quote is him saying God is not a consciousness, its a thing. All he is saying is life does not need a thing to lay down laws, its just there. Basically, not the common image of your man on his golden chair with a beard.

Your references (the last one does not work btw) are from personal sites, not universities or reasearch centres, chruches or anything of the sort. ie. they are unreliable.

http://jeromekahn123.tripod.com/thinkersonreligion/id8.html]http://jeromekahn123.tripod.com/thinkersonreligion/id8.html

This one backs me up with many many quotes such as:

God does not play dice."(On many occasions.)

"I want to know how God created the world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details."(Unknown date.)

Part of the popular picture of Einstein's God and religion comes from his well-known statements, such as: "God is cunning but He is not malicious."(Also: "God is subtle but he is not bloody-minded." Or: "God is slick, but he ain't mean." (1946)

You should check your references. You proved yourself wrong, congrats.

2.Bobsyouruncle

"Who gives a fuck? First of all, Enstein and Newton are dead. Get over it! They don't believe anything anymore. Second of all, the existence of God is something that can never be disproven because there is nothing testable about the idea of a consciousness that defies definition. If it can not be defined or tested, it can not ever be disproven."

Never said it was a consciousness. You assumed. Even if they are dead, their beliefs still count.

"They have not seen for themselves how the universe works. They were not there to witness the big bang. They did not have instruments set up when that happened to collect data. I'm sorry, but what they have given us is a flawed, albeit incredibly elegant and useful, theory about the way the world works."

No one has seen a proton or anything smaller than an atom. That means to you they are not real. Idiot. We know they are there because of experiment and determination via logic.

So whats the thing that has told light to go at 186K miles per hour? What makes the universe act as though it does?

We call that God.

quote:Originally posted by l337:

2.Bobsyouruncle

"Who gives a fuck? First of all, Enstein and Newton are dead. Get over it! They don't believe anything anymore. Second of all, the existence of God is something that can never be disproven because there is nothing testable about the idea of a consciousness that defies definition. If it can not be defined or tested, it can not ever be disproven."

Never said it was a consciousness. You assumed. Even if they are dead, their beliefs still count.



You are right about me saying that they are dead so their opinions are no longer valid. The reason their opinions are not any more valid than yours or mine is not because they are dead, it is because having an opinion on religion is not like stating facts. Because religion is far out of the scope of disprovable, any opinion on it is just as valid as any other opinion on it, it really doesn't matter who said it.

You are also right in saying that no one said anything about consciousness; however, I feel thats being a little nitpicky about it. Really, you can substitute consciousness for just about anything else about religion in that statement and its still valid. Religion is supposed to defy definition. Its supposed to be this concept that seems so real that it is almost palpable, but it always just eludes complete understanding. The statement "If it can not be defined or tested, it can not ever be disproven." is still completely valid for religion.

quote:Originally posted by l337:

"They have not seen for themselves how the universe works. They were not there to witness the big bang. They did not have instruments set up when that happened to collect data. I'm sorry, but what they have given us is a flawed, albeit incredibly elegant and useful, theory about the way the world works."

No one has seen a proton or anything smaller than an atom. That means to you they are not real. Idiot.

I never said that the things they have said, ie the big bang, do not exist. Read my post a little more carefully. I said what they have is a flawed theory. Every theory is flawed! That is why they are always eventually replaced. That is the very nature of science and scientific theories. Science is not supposed to explain the world, its supposed to give us close approximations.

It does not matter that Enstein and Newton were not there to see the big bang, humans and their perceptions are always flawed. We use instruments to try and help, but we can not elude the fact that we will always be flawed and so will whatever we create.

quote:Originally posted by l337:

We know they are there because of experiment and determination via logic.

So whats the thing that has told light to go at 186K miles per hour? What makes the universe act as though it does?

We call that God.

We do not "know they are there", what we know is that there is something there producing effects that seem to be congruent with what we have said is there.

What you have said about the definition of God being what man can not currently explain is no more valid than me saying he is an invisible man living in the sky that happens to be completely undetectable. Thats the great thing about religion, you can say any statement you want about it that can not be disproven and it is therefore a valid statement, at least as valid as any other such statement.

The folowing statements: God is "the thing that has told light to go at 186K miles per hour" or God is what makes "the universe act as though it does" do fit nicely into that non-disprovable category.



[This message has been edited by Bobsyouruncle (edited 02-18-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by l337:

Most of you will say God does not exist.

You will say this because science seems to start to disprove him.

WRONG. Albert Einstein, Newton and a very large proportion of scientists still believe in God... Do you know why?

So? Them beleiving in a god does not prove anything.

quote:

The whole Big Bang and universe created after it can be summed up and worked out with:

E=mc²

Its that simple, how everything was made can be summed up in in 3 letters and a small number.

You tell me that there is not a higher organisation behind that, how it can be so simple.

You obviously have no clue what you're talking about. That it has influeced the Big Bang theory? Undoubtedly. But neither the universe nor the Big Bang can be "summed up" with that equation.

quote:

"When the solution is simple, God is answering." Albert Einstein.



Einstein himself said his belief was described most accuretly by that of Spinoza. Spinoza didn't believe in a personal god. Now, you say that it doesn't matter, because the point is they believed, but it DOES matter. A god which is not personal, is not a god at all. It would be the same as me calling a slice of pizza, "god".

quote:

"Not only does God play dice, but... he sometimes throws them where they cannot be seen."

Stephen Hawking

This is an allusion to Einstein's quote, hence this proves nothing.

Hawking however, has described himself as a deist, which means he does not believe in a personal god, therefore we are left with the same issue as above.

I think you are misunderstanding.

My argument was originally (whatever my first post was) against people who say things along the lines of "God does not exist...you are wrong therefore I am better tahn you".

It was to show them that a God does not awlays mean what is shown in any holy book, but can take many different forms.

People who do the generalising of all believers in God are either gullable or believe in something completely stupid.

Eg.

4leafbullet-"dude you just decribed the life of a slave... but yeah i agree. HEY FAGS THAT BELIVE IN GODS!!!!!! GET YOUR HEAD OUTTA YOUR ASS!!!! THERES NO SUCH THING AS A GOD!!! IGNORANT FOOLS!!!!!!

-me "

Im sorry, but God can be defined in many ways.

I mean (and Einstein) believe in something that has a higher order, something we can not comprehend. Therefore said to be 'God like'.

Thats what I meant by God.

So sorry for any misundertsnading and I hope that has cleared most things up.

Edit:

Oh...and Deist.

"Deist: a person who believes in the existence of a remote, unknowable deity, usually male, who created the universe, but has not been involved with it since. Most of the politicians who founded America were Deists." http://www.religioustolerance.org/gl_d.htm



[This message has been edited by l337 (edited 02-18-2005).]

The problem with discussing God is that it can't happen.

If there was one idea of God then discussion would be very easy. But God is different to everyone.

My God is my God.

I believe in a loving caring forgiving God..no fire and brimstone here..

Some believe in a vengeful God..the God from the Old testament..

So how can Myself and the latter person have a discussion about God...Because we have two different ideas..

It would be like having a discussion about metal when one of us believed it was wood..

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

Most religious people I know don't live in fear.

I really think you have no idea what you're talking about.

every religious person i know lives in fear.. not that they show it, or would even admit it. but they do

example:

I have a friend. Who until resently wasn't allowed to hang out with me because according to his extremely religious mother, I was a bad influnce.

He later talked to her about it and she said that she didn't want him hanging out with me, because she thought I would make him do something bad, and in turn: God would punish her, for letting him hang out with me.

It was about this point that this kid realized that his mom was a total religious freak.. and moved in with his dad.

Religion is an interpretation of specific experience, not an analysis of physical facts.

-*