As you all probably know, Christians are against abortion, for both moral and ethical reasons.

I just wanted to give some information on the successes of Adult Stem Cell Research, in contrast to Embryonic Stem Cell Research.

In my opinion, abortion should not be condoned or promoted, in the name of science. It is not benefitting anyone, and does not show any promise of doing so any time soon. (Think about the term "Embryonic Farming" for a while...seen the movie Matrix ?)

I am not trying to say that people who are not Christian want to kill babies, or that they have no morals. Please don't misunderstand me. Those statement are for another debate altogether.

What I am saying is that using Embryonic Stem Cell Research as a justification for allowing abortion to continue is not only disgusting, but scientifically unsound (unjustified ?).

http://www.cogforlife.org/adultStemCellSuccess.htm "all of these successes have come exclusively from adult stem cell research. Embryonic stem cell research, which requires the destruction of early human life to acquire the cells, has not produced any successes in human patients." Also included on this site are cases of spinal cord injuries that were repaired by Adult Stem Cells.

"While the potency and success of adult stem cell treatments are becoming evident, treatments using embryonic stem cells have not produced any clinical successes. Rather, embryonic stem cell treatments tend to create tumors in numerous animal studies."

Are they lying ?

Other cases of success: http://www.corethics.org/anews.asp

More on ASCE vs. ESCR: http://www.cbhd.org/resources/stemcells/mcconchie_2004-06-16.htm

Progress of Embryonic Stem Cell Research: "Scientists announced yesterday they had achieved one of the most coveted goals in biology by isolating from human embryos and fetuses a primitive kind of cell that can grow into every kind of human tissue, including muscle, bone and brain." http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/cell110698.htm (1998)

Ok, but scientist's have been able to do this with Adult Stem Cells have been doing that for a while now.

"But many researchers believe that embryonic stem cells are more powerful." http://www.wired.com/news/medtech/0,1286,50951,00.html?tw=wn_story_related

But why ?!

Is it possible that this movement is being supported and even PUSHED by the injured abortion industry ? (A.K.A. money)

"About 86% of U.S. counties have no abortion provider. However, most of those counties simply do not provide enough abortion business to support a private clinic, and the abortion rate has been steadily declining since the early 1990s. While over a million unborn children still die from legal abortions every year, the numbers dropped from 1.608 million in 1990 to 1.328 in 1997. In some inner cities, abortion clinics are struggling to survive as competition for patients has triggered intense price wars." http://www.khouse.org/strategictrends/declineofus/20041130-845.html

ABORTION CLINICS: "I know, let's tell the public that aborting their fetus' will BENEFIT people with terminal illness or severe nerve damage. This way, they won't feel so guilty about the procedure." (that all came from me, and isn't a quote from anyone.)

Media Bias - " he pattern in the media reportage about stem cells is growing very wearisome. When a research advance occurs with embryonic stem cells, the media usually give the story the brass-band treatment. However, when researchers announce even greater success using adult stem cells, the media reportage is generally about as intense and excited as a stifled yawn." http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-smith042302.asp

If we can spare the lives of the infants by using a methodology that already works (Adult Stem Cells), why not do it ?

Why are Christians despised for saying, "Hey, this is wrong, and we shouldn't be doing it." ?

DISCLAIMER - I don't believe any of these websites are specifically Christian. I may be wrong on that, but I looked, and didn't see any indication of that.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

As you all probably know, Christians are against abortion, for both moral and ethical reasons.

I just wanted to give some information on the successes of Adult Stem Cell Research, in contrast to Embryonic Stem Cell Research.

In my opinion, abortion should not be condoned or promoted, in the name of science. It is not benefitting anyone, and does not show any promise of doing so any time soon. (Think about the term "Embryonic Farming" for a while...seen the movie Matrix ?)

I am not trying to say that people who are not Christian want to kill babies, or that they have no morals. Please don't misunderstand me. Those statement are for another debate altogether.

What I am saying is that using Embryonic Stem Cell Research as a justification for allowing abortion to continue is not only disgusting, but scientifically unsound (unjustified ?).

http://www.cogforlife.org/adultStemCellSuccess.htm "all of these successes have come exclusively from adult stem cell research. Embryonic stem cell research, which requires the destruction of early human life to acquire the cells, has not produced any successes in human patients." Also included on this site are cases of spinal cord injuries that were repaired by Adult Stem Cells.

"While the potency and success of adult stem cell treatments are becoming evident, treatments using embryonic stem cells have not produced any clinical successes. Rather, embryonic stem cell treatments tend to create tumors in numerous animal studies."

Are they lying ?

Other cases of success: http://www.corethics.org/anews.asp

More on ASCE vs. ESCR: http://www.cbhd.org/resources/stemcells/mcconchie_2004-06-16.htm

Progress of Embryonic Stem Cell Research: "Scientists announced yesterday they had achieved one of the most coveted goals in biology by isolating from human embryos and fetuses a primitive kind of cell that can grow into every kind of human tissue, including muscle, bone and brain." http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/cell110698.htm (1998)

Ok, but scientist's have been able to do this with Adult Stem Cells have been doing that for a while now.

"But many researchers believe that embryonic stem cells are more powerful." http://www.wired.com/news/medtech/0,1286,50951,00.html?tw=wn_story_related

But why ?!

Is it possible that this movement is being supported and even PUSHED by the injured abortion industry ? (A.K.A. money)

"About 86% of U.S. counties have no abortion provider. However, most of those counties simply do not provide enough abortion business to support a private clinic, and the abortion rate has been steadily declining since the early 1990s. While over a million unborn children still die from legal abortions every year, the numbers dropped from 1.608 million in 1990 to 1.328 in 1997. In some inner cities, abortion clinics are struggling to survive as competition for patients has triggered intense price wars." http://www.khouse.org/strategictrends/declineofus/20041130-845.html

ABORTION CLINICS: "I know, let's tell the public that aborting their fetus' will BENEFIT people with terminal illness or severe nerve damage. This way, they won't feel so guilty about the procedure." (that all came from me, and isn't a quote from anyone.)

Media Bias - " he pattern in the media reportage about stem cells is growing very wearisome. When a research advance occurs with embryonic stem cells, the media usually give the story the brass-band treatment. However, when researchers announce even greater success using adult stem cells, the media reportage is generally about as intense and excited as a stifled yawn." http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-smith042302.asp

If we can spare the lives of the infants by using a methodology that already works (Adult Stem Cells), why not do it ?

Why are Christians despised for saying, "Hey, this is wrong, and we shouldn't be doing it." ?

DISCLAIMER - I don't believe any of these websites are specifically Christian. I may be wrong on that, but I looked, and didn't see any indication of that.

I'm christian and I don't have any problem with stem cell research or abortion. Whats so evil about embreyonic stemm cell research? The abortion clinic conspiracy isn't likely since quite a few embreyotic stem cells are allready thrown away since bush outlawed governmnet funding.

Is it not Christian to do stem cell reasearch because it will save many more people?

Sort of the lesser of two evils.

I personally feel that women should have the choice, even though I think that abortion is something to be frowned upon. But why do people make such a big deal over the embryonic stem cell research? As I've heard it stem cells can be retrieved from both the placenta and the umbilical cord.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:



What I am saying is that using Embryonic Stem Cell Research as a justification for allowing abortion to continue is not only disgusting, but scientifically unsound (unjustified ?).

How many lives do we stand to save if we continue with this research. By stopping it you're responsible for the lives of millions upon millions of people that could have been saved in the future had these diseases been treatable.

quote:http://www.cogforlife.org/adultStemCellSuccess.htm "all of these successes have come exclusively from adult stem cell research. Embryonic stem cell research, which requires the destruction of early human life to acquire the cells, has not produced any successes in human patients." Also included on this site are cases of spinal cord injuries that were repaired by Adult Stem Cells.

And there's nothing to suggest, other than the constant opposition of the research, that the same, if not better, success could be had with Embryonic Stem Cells.

quote:

"While the potency and success of adult stem cell treatments are becoming evident, treatments using embryonic stem cells have not produced any clinical successes. Rather, embryonic stem cell treatments tend to create tumors in numerous animal studies."

Are they lying ?

Well, there have been successes, so they're lying there. But yes, some tumors have risen when testing in animals.

That being said, there have been successes. These setbacks are things that all new research has to endure. To set them back even farther by disallowing there research to continue is hardly the answer.



quote:

But why ?!

Is it possible that this movement is being supported and even PUSHED by the injured abortion industry ? (A.K.A. money)

Injured abortion industry? Please. This is simply a conspiricy theory, nothing more.

In fact, your own numbers refute this. If the number of abortions have gone down... then the 'enticing advertising' either doesn't exist, or (assuming there there is such a thing) then it has failed myserably, which then removes any and all importance it has!



quote:

"About 86% of U.S. counties have no abortion provider. However, most of those counties simply do not provide enough abortion business to support a private clinic, and the abortion rate has been steadily declining since the early 1990s. While over a million unborn children still die from legal abortions every year, the numbers dropped from 1.608 million in 1990 to 1.328 in 1997. In some inner cities, abortion clinics are struggling to survive as competition for patients has triggered intense price wars." http://www.khouse.org/strategictrends/declineofus/20041130-845.html

ABORTION CLINICS: "I know, let's tell the public that aborting their fetus' will BENEFIT people with terminal illness or severe nerve damage. This way, they won't feel so guilty about the procedure." (that all came from me, and isn't a quote from anyone.)

Unsubstantiated. The fact alone that Adult Cells have had success is reason enough to see the potential in Embryonic Stem Cells, let alone the fact that there has been success.

quote:

If we can spare the lives of the infants by using a methodology that already works (Adult Stem Cells), why not do it ?

Because it is ridiculous to think that these people are aborting their child because of the research. These Stem Cells are already going to waste, so why not use them?

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 02-23-2005).]

quote:As you all probably know, Christians are against abortion, for both moral and ethical reasons.

Wow.. how could you get it so wrong from the start?

Whoa...my thread exploded.

I'll try to reply to everyone. *whew*

NIGHTVISION - Was it necessary for you to use my post as your reply ?

Please edit your post, and delete "my stuff". No one likes it when you repeat what was said, especially when yours is the very next post, and it is obvious what you are replying to.

Now, to respond:

quote:I'm christian and I don't have any problem with stem cell research or abortion. Whats so evil about embreyonic stemm cell research? The abortion clinic conspiracy isn't likely since quite a few embreyotic stem cells are allready thrown away since bush outlawed governmnet funding.

I don't have any problem with stem cell research, either...as long as it is ADULT stem cells (which are the only one's that have had any success).

If you support abortion, and the extermination of embryo's, then I have to be the one to tell you that you don't understand the Bible, friend.

I am not intending that as an insult.

As I understand it, the only embryo's being used right now are the frozen embryo's from fertility clinics, that were going to go unused anyway. Though I still disagree with that, I feel that this is better than "embryo harvesting", or promoting abortion in order to support the science that runs off of murder.

Bush did NOT outlaw government funding...that statement alone proves that you don't understand what you are talking about.

Bush said no federal funding would be provided to support abortion for embryonic stem cell research. He also said that no funding would be given to assist those that seek to use harvest [i]new[/b] embryo's. He has said that the one's that are already frozen can be used.

In this, I disagree with Bush. He shouldn't have compromised AT ALL.

But, he did. So, what can we do about it now ?

1. You use your own cells instead of those of an embryo with another DNA makeup, which would require taking immunosuppressant drugs for the rest of your life (like one does when they have an organ transplant).

2. You avoid the problem of having to clone yourself to get cells genetically identical to your own to avoid problem 1.

3. You avoid having to obtain scores of human eggs to get the stem cells via cloning. (The South Korean experiment required 242 eggs to get one embryonic stem cell line.)

4. Adult stem cells are already specialized and require less cell specialization to work. (Avoids problems of unspecialized embryonic cells becoming tumors.)

5. Lastly, adult stem cells don’t have the moral problem of requiring the destruction of living human embryos for the research.

While we all are concerned that we find cures for those suffering from disease, such cures do not lie in destroying living human embryos. They lie instead in research developments that, in many cases, are already here.

quote:Originally posted by l337:

Is it not Christian to do stem cell reasearch because it will save many more people?

Sort of the lesser of two evils.

You cannot sacrifice one life in the name of saving another.

By doing this, you are saying that God is not in control.

That you don't trust that He knows what He is doing, if you believe in Him at all.

Also,l I am not against stem cell research.

PAY ATTENTION !!!

ADULT stem cell research and use is FINE ! No one dies because of it.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

As you all probably know, Christians are against abortion, for both moral and ethical reasons.

i would jus like to point out that not all Christans are against it. i ,a Christan, am for it. it helps in many different way, ways that prove to be useful to alot of different people. maybe not for the right resons but... who knows maybe it will.

quote:Originally posted by chaoszero:

I personally feel that women should have the choice, even though I think that abortion is something to be frowned upon. But why do people make such a big deal over the embryonic stem cell research? As I've heard it stem cells can be retrieved from both the placenta and the umbilical cord.

If they are derived from a placenta or the umbilical cord (which I did donate 2 of mine to stem cell research), then they are not EMBRYONIC cells . They are ADULT stem cells. I think that is ok, because it doesn't require the death of a human to obtain it.

See the difference ?

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 02-23-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by another god:

i would jus like to point out that not all Christans are against it. i ,a Christan, am for it. it helps in many different way, ways that prove to be useful to alot of different people. maybe not for the right resons but... who knows maybe it will.

Abortion helps no one.

Have you studied abortion ? Or are you just touting what Nightline has been telling you ?

I don't mean to be rude, but if you knew what you were talking about, you wouldn't support it.

quote: How many lives do we stand to save if we continue with this research. By stopping it you're responsible for the lives of millions upon millions of people that could have been saved in the future had these diseases been treatable.

And that is exactly the justification Embryonic Stem Cell researchers are using.

Adult stem cell research and usage is already working, with unparalleled success. Why do we need to start using human embryo’s ?

Millions of lives can be repaired or “saved” (I find it interesting that you care more about saving “people” than you do about saving “people” !) with adult stem cells. There is no need to use embryonic cells, which have proven to be nothing but a failure.

quote: And there's nothing to suggest, other than the constant opposition of the research, that the same, if not better, success could be had with Embryonic Stem Cells.

There is nothing to prove that it can (be better).

quote: Well, there have been successes, so they're lying there. But yes, some tumors have risen when testing in animals.



[quote][b]That being said, there have been successes. These setbacks are things that all new research has to endure. To set them back even farther by disallowing there research to continue is hardly the answer.

I, myself, posted links showing what success embryonic stem cells HAVE accomplished. Don’t tell me what I have already said. FOR ONCE, WOULD YOU ACTUALLY READ THE WEBSITES BEFORE RUNNING YOUR “MOUTH” ?!

I provided the successes of both (in which adult stem cells are far superior in producing results), and have not been biased in my posting in any way.

quote: Injured abortion industry? Please. This is simply a conspiricy theory, nothing more.

In fact, your own numbers refute this. If the number of abortions have gone down... then the 'enticing advertising' either doesn't exist, or (assuming there there is such a thing) then it has failed myserably, which then removes any and all importance it has!

Ok. You just made an “assertion”, one which you obviously didn’t bother to back up with FACT.

Overall, the abortion industry has been in decline. I have posted websites with that information. Again, if you had bothered to look, you would have seen that.

“ Planned Parenthood has released its annual report for 2003-2004. The information reveals that the nation's largest abortion business performed more abortions at fewer abortion facilities during the last year. The pro-abortion group also took in fewer private donations and more money from the government. According to Jim Sedlak, president of STOPP International, a watchdog group that monitors Planned Parenthood, the abortion business performed 244,628 abortions, an increase of 6.1 percent. It has performed more than 3.5 million abortions since 1970. Planned Parenthood Federation of America's (PPFA) annual report shows more than one-third of Planned Parenthood's annual income comes from abortions. Surgical abortions accounted for $104 million of the $302.6 million its offices brought in. As it has in the past, Planned Parenthood continues to provide few alternatives to abortion. For every adoption referral made, it performed 138 abortions. The PPFA report reveals that the abortion business continues to sell the dangerous RU 486 abortion drug at a steady clip, despite the death of California teenager Holly Patterson, who obtained the abortion drug at a local Planned Parenthood office. The data shows 203 PPFA facilities sold more than 95,000 abortion pills. Some 49 Planned Parenthood offices that do not perform surgical abortions sell the drugs. Sedlak says Planned Parenthood continues to take in significant income from federal, state and local governments. Combined, tax dollars accounted for a record $265.2 million -- nearly 33 percent of its $810 million total income the supposedly non-profit group made. In fact, PPFA continues to make a profit, Sedlak explained. "For the 18th year in a row, Planned Parenthood turned a net profit. This year's $35.2 million brings its total profits over the 18 years to $538 million," he indicated. Meanwhile, private donations dropped for the second time in three years.”

Nope…they have no vested interest in embryonic stem cell research at all !

As stated above, Planned Parenthood continues to provide few alternatives to abortion. For every adoption referral made, it performed 138 abortions.

See, they don’t $GAIN$ from adoptions…they gain from abortions.

The number of facilities they operate declined from 866 to 849 in the last year. Some 89 facilities have closed since 1995.

So, I need to clarify something…Planned Parenthood (and yes, I know there are other clinics, but PP is the most public, so I will use them as an example) lost clinics, and private funding. The number of abortions they performed actually increased, though it changed demographics as far as popularity is concerned (rich women are getting them more, and teens are getting them less.)

As a whole, overall abortions in the U.S. have been declining, dropping nearly a quarter of a million since peaking at 1.6 million in 1990. Think of it this way: If U.S. figures had increased at the same level experienced by Planned Parenthood over the last 10 years, we'd be looking at 2.4 million abortions a year instead of the estimated 1.3 million.

Though Planned Parenthood identifies itself as a "pro-choice" organization, statistics from its latest annual report show a decided tilt toward the abortion "option." Prenatal care clients (16,065) were outnumbered by abortion clients by a more than 10 to 1 margin. That over four times as many (67,052) prenatal patients had to be referred out as received prenatal care shows how ill prepared or unmotivated PPFA clinics are to offer women this option. Put another way, 80% of abortion patients receive their services on site, while 80% of prenatal patients have to be referred elsewhere.

The case is even worse with regard to adoption. Despite the mention of "adoption counseling" as one of the health services offered by affiliates, no in-house adoption services are listed in the "service summary." The service summary does mention "adoption referrals to other agencies," but these total only a paltry 4,892 for the whole year.

Put in perspective, abortions outnumbered adoption referrals by a 34-1 margin at Planned Parenthood clinics in 1998.

Given the inordinate emphasis Planned Parenthood gives to abortion over prenatal care and adoption, it should be clearer than ever that Planned Parenthood's plans typically don't involve parenthood. http://www.abortiontv.com/Misc/planned_parenthood.htm

Why would they want to murder children for no reason ? Touting “health issues” ? YEAH, RIGHT. Open your eyes...it’s all about the Almighty Dollar. Almost NONE of the abortions (approximately 1% total) were done because of medical necessity.

See how much they care about the health of WOMAN ?

quote: Unsubstantiated. The fact alone that Adult Cells have had success is reason enough to see the potential in Embryonic Stem Cells, let alone the fact that there has been success.

Embryonic cells have been almost 100% unable to reproduce what adult stem cells have. Are they so different that they cannot produce similarly positive results ?

Your viewpoint is seriously obtuse, and intentionally so.

quote: Because it is ridiculous to think that these people are aborting their child because of the research. These Stem Cells are already going to waste, so why not use them?

I NEVER SAID THAT THEY WERE.

My point was: That which was acceptable 100 years ago is NOT acceptable today (ex. Slavery). If the media and the abortion clinics use embryonic stem cell research to relieve the guilt behind getting an abortion (how many people go around bragging about having an abortion ? They experience guilt, and shame. It is never an occasion to rejoice.), then more people will have it, their conscience desensitized.

Just as it is today with violence and sex…what we once saw as “fornication”, we now justify with “human rights”.

It will be the same thing with abortion, in regards to embryonic stem cell use.



[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 02-23-2005).]

digital, there may be a god, but organized religion is a sham. the bible is fables that teach people how to live in harmony and peace, not a text book to be studied and worhsipped. you are religious because your parents were. they were because their parents were and so on, back to the days when people didnt know any better. heaven refers to the inner peace you have when you are a kind and just person. the idea of an afterlife is absurd

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

nd that is exactly the justification Embryonic Stem Cell researchers are using.

Adult stem cell research and usage is already working, with unparalleled success. Why do we need to start using human embryo’s ?

Millions of lives can be repaired or “saved” (I find it interesting that you care more about saving “people” than you do about saving “people” !) with adult stem cells. There is no need to use embryonic cells, which have proven to be nothing but a failure.

1. It is completely false to claim that they have only been a failure.

2. With the use of Embryonic Stem Cells, the speed of the research increases, and so does the possibility for creating new treatments and new cures, and therefore the amount of people that can be saved.

Embryonic Stem Cells therefore, are helpful.

quote:There is nothing to prove that it can (be better).

Let's say this is true, which in reality it is only true because of the opposition to the research in the first place. Even if it were less sucessful, it still means there is success, and any sucess increases the amount of lives saved.

quote:I, myself, posted links showing what success embryonic stem cells HAVE accomplished. Don’t tell me what I have already said. FOR ONCE, WOULD YOU ACTUALLY READ THE WEBSITES BEFORE RUNNING YOUR “MOUTH” ?!

I provided the successes of both (in which adult stem cells are far superior in producing results), and have not been biased in my posting in any way.

I'm answering YOUR question. You asked whether they were lying. I never claimed you didn't provide such websites. Hilarious that you speak of my reading skills when you completely miss this...

quote:Ok. You just made an “assertion”, one which you obviously didn’t bother to back up with FACT.

Overall, the abortion industry has been in decline. I have posted websites with that information. Again, if you had bothered to look, you would have seen that.

Read what I said. My assertion is based on YOUR facts. YOU claimed that the abortion industry is declining. If it is declining then the plan you claim they have (to use ESC research to their advantage) either does not exist, or is FAILING. That's my point.

quote:Nope…they have no vested interest in embryonic stem cell research at all !

Because I claimed they didn't! http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

quote:So, I need to clarify something…Planned Parenthood (and yes, I know there are other clinics, but PP is the most public, so I will use them as an example) lost clinics, and private funding. The number of abortions they performed actually increased, though it changed demographics as far as popularity is concerned (rich women are getting them more, and teens are getting them less.)

As a whole, overall abortions in the U.S. have been declining, dropping nearly a quarter of a million since peaking at 1.6 million in 1990. Think of it this way: If U.S. figures had increased at the same level experienced by Planned Parenthood over the last 10 years, we'd be looking at 2.4 million abortions a year instead of the estimated 1.3 million.

Though Planned Parenthood identifies itself as a "pro-choice" organization, statistics from its latest annual report show a decided tilt toward the abortion "option." Prenatal care clients (16,065) were outnumbered by abortion clients by a more than 10 to 1 margin. That over four times as many (67,052) prenatal patients had to be referred out as received prenatal care shows how ill prepared or unmotivated PPFA clinics are to offer women this option. Put another way, 80% of abortion patients receive their services on site, while 80% of prenatal patients have to be referred elsewhere.

The case is even worse with regard to adoption. Despite the mention of "adoption counseling" as one of the health services offered by affiliates, no in-house adoption services are listed in the "service summary." The service summary does mention "adoption referrals to other agencies," but these total only a paltry 4,892 for the whole year. Put in perspective, abortions outnumbered adoption referrals by a 34-1 margin at Planned Parenthood clinics in 1998.

Given the inordinate emphasis Planned Parenthood gives to abortion over prenatal care and adoption, it should be clearer than ever that Planned Parenthood's plans typically don't involve parenthood. http://www.abortiontv.com/Misc/planned_parenthood.htm

Why would they want to murder children for no reason ? Touting “health issues” ? YEAH, RIGHT. Open your eyes...it’s all about the Almighty Dollar. Almost NONE of the abortions (approximately 1% total) were done because of medical necessity.

See how much they care about the health of WOMAN ?

Thank you for proving my point completely. If the number of abortions has decreased, then this either means there is no plan from abortion clinics to support ESC research for their own personal gains, or that this plan is a complete failure.

quote:Embryonic cells have been almost 100% unable to reproduce what adult stem cells have. Are they so different that they cannot produce similarly positive results ?

Your viewpoint is seriously obtuse, and intentionally so.

I never denied that they haven't. The point is, that even if the success if of a lesser measure, it is still SUCCESS. It is still an advantage and still serves to help with the cause of curing diseases and saving lives.

quote:

I NEVER SAID THAT THEY WERE.

My point was: That which was acceptable 100 years ago is NOT acceptable today (ex. Slavery). If the media and the abortion clinics use embryonic stem cell research to relieve the guilt behind getting an abortion (how many people go around bragging about having an abortion ? They experience guilt, and shame. It is never an occasion to rejoice.), then more people will have it, their conscience desensitized.

Just as it is today with violence and sex…what we once saw as “fornication”, we now justify with “human rights”.

It will be the same thing with abortion, in regards to embryonic stem cell use.

... and your own evidence refutes this since the number of abortions has DECREASED. See above.

I have never denied that religion is a farce. I agree with you 100%.

The Bible is only a set of fables for those who have been told so, and have not studied it for themselves.

I find it laughable that you accuse me of being what my parents were, when you didn't even know that I don't agree with religion at all.

You know nothing about my life, and that assumption makes anything and everything you have and will say unrespectable.

I was a priestess (as a medium) before I converted to Christianity, so don't presume to know how and why I came to the path that I have.

As for being kind and just, humanity is incapable of being infinitely kind, and where did we get the ideals necessary to establish what is just, and what is not ?

The Bible tells us that "our works are as filthy rags." Nothing we can do will be just, or righteous, because it is not our nature.

But since you don't believe that the Bible is true, even though you haven't read it, that won't matter to you.

Can you prove there is no Heaven or Hell, anymore than I can prove that there is ?

quote:

1. It is completely false to claim that they have only been a failure.

2. With the use of Embryonic Stem Cells, the speed of the research increases, and so does the possibility for creating new treatments and new cures, and therefore the amount of people that can be saved.

Embryonic Stem Cells therefore, are helpful.



1. Show me something that says it has been successful.

2. Speed of research ? What evidence do you have to support that ?

Embryonic stem cells have not been shown to be helpful with any kind of stability.

I am not saying that they won’t be in the future, but adult stem cells are helpful NOW, yet their success has not been adequately reported.

Provide proof of what you are saying, “or admit that you can’t.”, and be quiet. (sound familiar ?)

quote: Let's say this is true, which in reality it is only true because of the opposition to the research in the first place. Even if it were less successful, it still means there is success, and any sucess increases the amount of lives saved.

Embryonic stem cell research is DRAMATICALLY praised, even when it has accomplished very little (if anything), yet Adult Stem Cell research has struggled to gain the press and popularity it is due, despite definitive proof that it is SUCCESSFUL.

Tell me why that is, other than the media’s hidden LIBERAL agenda ?

Adult stem cells have regenerated bone, muscle, and nerve cells. What MORE do you want ?

I must point out that you speak as someone who hasn’t studied this at all.

Your points are weak, and show that you just want to argue, no matter what the subject is.

Sorry to make it personal, but you have given me little else to work with, save your own personal opinion. Give something worthwhile…like some scientific evidence.

quote: I'm answering YOUR question. You asked whether they were lying. I never claimed you didn't provide such websites. Hilarious that you speak of my reading skills when you completely miss this...

Oh, really ?

You said “Unsubstantiated.” What does THAT mean ? “unsupported by other evidence.” Synonyms of that same word are: unconfirmed, which means “ Not based on fact or sound evidence; groundless.”, untenable, which means “Being such that defense or maintenance is impossible.”, and fallacious, meaning “ Containing or based on a fallacy.” or “ Tending to mislead; deceptive.”

What you basically said was that I provided no evidence whatsoever, or at least nothing that COULD be considered evidence.

If you truly believe that, you lie to yourself as much as you do to everyone else.

I have not referred to your reading skills in a long while. I said you DIDN’T read the sites I provided, not that you didn’t comprehend them when you read them (which is the point of saying, “You can’t read.”, since it is obvious that we both can.) Grow up.

quote: By stopping it you're responsible for the lives of millions upon millions of people that could have been saved in the future had these diseases been treatable.

By the way, how am I responsible for illness and infirmity that I did not create ?



We can play God all we want and develop new ways to avert these “undesirable” effects of LIFE, but they will always occur. We do not live in perfection, and never will while we are on this earth.

quote: Thank you for proving my point completely. If the number of abortions has decreased, then this either means there is no plan from abortion clinics to support ESC research for their own personal gains, or that this plan is a complete failure.

How do the two correlate ? The decreasing number of abortions means that THEY ARE LOSING. That means they are LOSING MONEY. Which means they will need to find another justification for abortion, besides a “woman’s right to choose.” That’s not cutting it anymore…millions of women are seeing that as the BS it is, mostly because of the affect abortion has had on the mental state of those who have had the procedure done.

Since they are in the business of exterminating life to make money, what better than to use “saving lives”, “providing cures for the terminally ill”, and “regeneration” as fuel to succeed ?

It sounds good to me (except I know what they are really doing) !

Tell people that by getting an abortion, they are not only giving themselves freedom from the burden of unwanted parenthood, they are saving lives !

Ingenious.

And you fell for it. *shakes head*

quote: That being said, there have been successes. These setbacks are things that all new research has to endure. To set them back even farther by disallowing there research to continue is hardly the answer.

I need to point out here that the same can be said for Creation Science.

*raises an eyebrow*

But I am NOT to think that you have a biased view ?

What is good for the Goose is OBVIOUSLY not good for the Gander.

quote: I never denied that they haven't. The point is, that even if the success if of a lesser measure, it is still SUCCESS. It is still an advantage and still serves to help with the cause of curing diseases and saving lives.

And while you get warm fuzzies about their “potential” (which hasn’t been proven to exist) to save human life, embryo’s are destroyed.

What exactly do you think embryo’s are ? Oh, yeah…you don’t believe that they are to be considered “human life”…so, who gives a crap about them anyway ? SAVE MICHAEL J. FOX !! (he’s more important, after all)

We already have success, with infinite possibilities with adult stem cells…all I am saying is, why mess with success ?

Also, I don’t necessarily debate the case of the embryo’s that are currently being used, since they are going to be disposed of anyway. It’s is pretty much too late for them, so it is moot to talk about it.

I am looking into the future, when the frozen embryo’s are no longer viable, or scientist’s run out of them.

Where will we get them, then ?

That is when abortion will come into play.

quote: ... and your own evidence refutes this since the number of abortions has DECREASED. See above.

Thanks for pointing out what I have already said, Captain Obvious.

Their declining business will spawn the necessity to preserve itself.

Eliminating the guilt associated with getting an abortion by comforting women with the thought that their aborted fetus/embryo will benefit another human being is PURE GENIUS.

It is a selling/marketing tactic, and one that will work.

When people don’t feel guilt for the wrong things they do, they lose the desire to do what is RIGHT !!!!!



[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 02-23-2005).]

http://www.ppmarmonte.org/documents/PPMMAnnualReport2004ND.pdf

Take a look at THAT crap...pay special attention to the terminology they use, strategically to indicate their defense by "persecution complex", or "martyrdom".

"The vile Christian president has stunted our ability to grow..."

...and make money !

Bush didn't prohibit their right to provide adoption counseling and services. Nor did he make any attempt to prevent them from distributing birth control (pills, condoms, etc.).

I think it is obvious that he would like them to stop killing children.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I have never denied that religion is a farce. I agree with you 100%.

The Bible is only a set of fables for those who have been told so, and have not studied it for themselves.

I find it laughable that you accuse me of being what my parents were, when you didn't even know that I don't agree with religion at all.

You know nothing about my life, and that assumption makes anything and everything you have and will say unrespectable.

I was a priestess (as a medium) before I converted to Christianity, so don't presume to know how and why I came to the path that I have.

As for being kind and just, humanity is incapable of being infinitely kind, and where did we get the ideals necessary to establish what is just, and what is not ?

The Bible tells us that "our works are as filthy rags." Nothing we can do will be just, or righteous, because it is not our nature.

But since you don't believe that the Bible is true, even though you haven't read it, that won't matter to you.

Can you prove there is no Heaven or Hell, anymore than I can prove that there is ?

enlighten me then. it is true i know nothing about you, other than you are very weird.

i believe we each have our own god, inside of us, and good and evil is obvious to us, but the correct choice is not.

it seems you reject some of your religion, but not all. with religion it is all or none.

when you did you will live on as sustenance for grass and worms, and the circle of life will continue

Please stop with the hypocrytical "murder" cries. Christians who are so concerned with the lives of fetuses are the typical people who support USA in embargos that kill LIVING children, bombings that kill LIVING children. A fetus is not a human being.

And stop trying to control the lives of women. Abortion maybe the only choice they have in some cases.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:



1. Show me something that says it has been successful.

2. Speed of research ? What evidence do you have to support that ?

Embryonic stem cells have not been shown to be helpful with any kind of stability.

I am not saying that they won’t be in the future, but adult stem cells are helpful NOW, yet their success has not been adequately reported.

Provide proof of what you are saying, “or admit that you can’t.”, and be quiet. (sound familiar ?)





1.

http://www.wired.com/news/medtech/0,1286,50951,00.html

2. Are you suggesting that further scientific research would not help the speed in which new cures are developed? http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

quote:Embryonic stem cell research is DRAMATICALLY praised, even when it has accomplished very little (if anything), yet Adult Stem Cell research has struggled to gain the press and popularity it is due, despite definitive proof that it is SUCCESSFUL.

Tell me why that is, other than the media’s hidden LIBERAL agenda ?

Adult stem cells have regenerated bone, muscle, and nerve cells. What MORE do you want ?

I must point out that you speak as someone who hasn’t studied this at all.

Your points are weak, and show that you just want to argue, no matter what the subject is.

Sorry to make it personal, but you have given me little else to work with, save your own personal opinion. Give something worthwhile…like some scientific evidence.

Read what I'm saying! Geez. The point is, if there is ANY success with ESC then these helps research in the field and thus the amount of lives that are possibly saved. How do you want me to bring evidence of this, when this is simply logic. If something AIDS you in your research then it is logical to assume that these either makes you research more sound, or speed the research up, which in the field of medicine equals more lives saved.



quote:Oh, really ?

You said “Unsubstantiated.” What does THAT mean ? “unsupported by other evidence.” Synonyms of that same word are: unconfirmed, which means “ Not based on fact or sound evidence; groundless.”, untenable, which means “Being such that defense or maintenance is impossible.”, and fallacious, meaning “ Containing or based on a fallacy.” or “ Tending to mislead; deceptive.”

What you basically said was that I provided no evidence whatsoever, or at least nothing that COULD be considered evidence.

If you truly believe that, you lie to yourself as much as you do to everyone else.

I have not referred to your reading skills in a long while. I said you DIDN’T read the sites I provided, not that you didn’t comprehend them when you read them (which is the point of saying, “You can’t read.”, since it is obvious that we both can.) Grow up.

Are you dyslexic? I said "unsubstantiated" to ANOTHER THING. Get it? As in, NOT WHAT YOU'RE CRYING ABOUT HERE. (I'm saying this because the quote you're using here has NOTHING to do with why I said, "unsbustantiated".)

Here, I'll make it easier for you:

You said, "I know, let's tell the public that aborting their fetus' will BENEFIT people with terminal illness or severe nerve damage. This way, they won't feel so guilty about the procedure." (that all came from me, and isn't a quote from anyone.)" Implying not only that there were no benefits from ESC research, but that there was this conspiracy to promote ESC for their gains. To THAT I said, "Unsubstantiated". Since... guess what... you DIDN'T provide anything to back THAT statement up. The only thing you provided was evidence of abortions decreasing, which suggests this plan to promote ESC research to increase abortions, either doesn't exist, or is a failure.

quote:By the way, how am I responsible for illness and infirmity that I did not create ?



We can play God all we want and develop new ways to avert these “undesirable” effects of LIFE, but they will always occur. We do not live in perfection, and never will while we are on this earth.

You're responsible if you hinder research that will save lives. Everything suggests that ESC research would do so.

quote:How do the two correlate ? The decreasing number of abortions means that THEY ARE LOSING. That means they are LOSING MONEY. Which means they will need to find another justification for abortion, besides a “woman’s right to choose.” That’s not cutting it anymore…millions of women are seeing that as the BS it is, mostly because of the affect abortion has had on the mental state of those who have had the procedure done.

Since they are in the business of exterminating life to make money, what better than to use “saving lives”, “providing cures for the terminally ill”, and “regeneration” as fuel to succeed ?

It sounds good to me (except I know what they are really doing) !

Tell people that by getting an abortion, they are not only giving themselves freedom from the burden of unwanted parenthood, they are saving lives !

Ingenious.

And you fell for it. *shakes head*

The point is... it ISN'T ingenious. It either doesn't exist, or ISN'T WORKING. Get it? The decrease in abortions, even after employing these techniques that you claim they are employing, either means there no such techniques, or that they are miserable failure.

quote:I need to point out here that the same can be said for Creation Science.

*raises an eyebrow*

But I am NOT to think that you have a biased view ?

What is good for the Goose is OBVIOUSLY not good for the Gander.

Tell me ONE "success" that creation "science" has achieved. I'm dying to know.

quote:And while you get warm fuzzies about their “potential” (which hasn’t been proven to exist) to save human life, embryo’s are destroyed.

What exactly do you think embryo’s are ? Oh, yeah…you don’t believe that they are to be considered “human life”…so, who gives a crap about them anyway ? SAVE MICHAEL J. FOX !! (he’s more important, after all)

We already have success, with infinite possibilities with adult stem cells…all I am saying is, why mess with success ?

Also, I don’t necessarily debate the case of the embryo’s that are currently being used, since they are going to be disposed of anyway. It’s is pretty much too late for them, so it is moot to talk about it.

I am looking into the future, when the frozen embryo’s are no longer viable, or scientist’s run out of them.

Where will we get them, then ?

That is when abortion will come into play.

1. It's funny how you try to get the moral high ground, by advocating the hindering of research that would save lives, thus sending human beings to their death, in order to save clumps of living cells.

It's really working for you. Keep it up.

2. Adult Stem Cell Research wouldn't be "messed with". It would only benefit from the added experimentation of ESC. It would not be hindered in any way.

quote:Thanks for pointing out what I have already said, Captain Obvious.

That's fucking hilarious! I'm pointing out how WRONG you are...

quote:Eliminating the guilt associated with getting an abortion by comforting women with the thought that their aborted fetus/embryo will benefit another human being is PURE GENIUS.

It is a selling/marketing tactic, and one that will work.

It ISN'T working! That's the whole point. Your own statistics show that it ISN'T working! Get it? A decrease in abortions proves that it ISN'T working.



[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 02-23-2005).]

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0204/answers.html http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rom/Rom008.html#top

ok...



And it shall come to pass after the end of seventy years, that the LORD will visit Tyre, and she shall turn to her hire, and shall commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world upon the face of the earth.

And her merchandise and her hire shall be holiness to the LORD: it shall not be treasured nor laid up; for her merchandise shall be for them that dwell before the LORD, to eat sufficiently, and for durable clothing.

Isaiah 23:17-18 http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/versions/1109188275-5802.html#18 http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0204/answers.html

Wtf? Looks like the bible somehow maaged to screw itself on this and it proves abortion is irrelivent in the bible.

Btw, kill the inanimate unwanted clumps of cells they will just bankrupt our allrrady corrupt tax/political system.

As several people here have already stated, just because embryonic stem cells have not shown the same level of success as adult stem cells, doesn't mean that we should discontinue research in the area (in my opinion).

Abortions are going to happen, anyway, so why not take advantage of the stem cells that are being made available?

Some people might say that this is a rather non-Buddhist stance to take, but I disagree. As human beings, our existence is supported by the deaths of countless beings everyday, and this cannot be avoided if you wish to stay alive. All you can do is be grateful for the labors of their suffering, and use the strength you receive from them to continue on down the Way.

Also, I should say that in Buddhism, all beings are of equal "value": the death of a fetus is as "important" as the death of a sunflower.



[This message has been edited by Social Junker (edited 02-23-2005).]

Why is this even a religious debate?

You need religion to protect babies?

If abortion is really killing human

beings (which is decision up to us

to make), then it should be wrong by

secular law.

I doubt Moses and Buddha knew what

embryos are.

The value we place on human lives is

something to decide for ourselves,

not stories from old wise men.

Life is meaningless - the universe is

arbitrary. It is for us to decide

what matters.

What I don't get is - why stem cell research is illegal but abortions aren't?

If we're killing the babies, we might as well get some use out of them. Especially when it could possibly cure horrible things.

See ? The above poster's mentality is EXACTLY the line of thinking I am talking about !!

If he/she can think it, anyone can, and they will, all in the name of posterity !

It's still killing children, which cannot be justified, no matter how you spin it.

quote:Originally posted by elfstone:

Please stop with the hypocrytical "murder" cries. Christians who are so concerned with the lives of fetuses are the typical people who support USA in embargos that kill LIVING children, bombings that kill LIVING children. A fetus is not a human being.

And stop trying to control the lives of women. Abortion maybe the only choice they have in some cases.

I AM A WOMAN, jerk.

I know what my rights should and should not be...

I don't know any Christians that support murder of any kind.

PEOPLE that support murder, in any way shape or form, are not Christian, by definition.

And by saying that "because Christians support the murder of grown children", you seem to be trying to justify killing innocent UNBORN children.

How asinine is that ?

"Well, YOU do it, so why can't we ?"

You are about as uneducated as a gnat.

Sorry if that was mean, but....damn.

quote:Originally posted by Viraljimmy:

Why is this even a religious debate?

You need religion to protect babies?

If abortion is really killing human

beings (which is decision up to us

to make), then it should be wrong by

secular law.

I doubt Moses and Buddha knew what

embryos are.

The value we place on human lives is

something to decide for ourselves,

not stories from old wise men.

Life is meaningless - the universe is

arbitrary. It is for us to decide

what matters.

Yes, because GOD defines what is right and wrong, to include MURDER.

Secular law is FULL of flaws that are a detriment to the human race ! How can you even propose such a thing ?

Moses and Buddha aren't even remotely similar, and they had no reason to know what embryo's were, since abortion wasn't an EPIDEMIC of mankind back in their time. What a BS comparison.

Life is meaningless ? Go kill yourself and prove it.

*sighs*

The point is, you won't. Why ? Because you are living for a "purpose", whether you acknowledge it or not.

Prove that the universe is arbitrary.

quote:It ISN'T working! That's the whole point. Your own statistics show that it ISN'T working! Get it? A decrease in abortions proves that it ISN'T working.

Nice try attempting to "twist" my point.

Maybe I am not being very clear, but I am talking about two different things.

ABORTION and EMBRYONIC STEM CELL RESEARCH.

I am not saying that CURRENTLY abortion has much to do with embryonic stem cell research scientifically. However, the two subjects are becoming synonymous in the American media.

Here is the beginning of the need for "fresh" embryo's: "The human embryonic stem-cell lines eligible for federally funded research are unsuitable for use in humans because they were grown in contact with mouse cells and could conceivably infect humans with mouse viruses, a panel convened by scientists at Johns Hopkins University said." http://womensissues.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fseattletimes.nwsourc e.com%2Fhtml%2Fnationworld%2F2001788115_stemcells1 1.html

"I know ! Let's harvest them from abortion clinics. We will compensate the clinics monetarily, so that they will promote the use of aborted fetus' for our research. This in turn will provide us with AMPLE amounts of suitable specimens." (my own words...not quoting a source.)

Again, it's ingenious.

And unnecessary.

- http://www.stemcellresearch.org/ (see progress of ADULT stem cell research. No need to abort babies !)

- http://www.nccbuscc.org/prolife/issues/bioethic/factsheets.htm (myths, FACTS and successes)

What I AM saying is that the abortion industry is experiencing a decrease in profit, which means that they will be trying to find new marketing tactics to promote their business, and quest for money.

Every business does this...finding new angles...new ways to promote, and convince people that their services or products are something we "need".

If you can't even recognize THAT, then...well...I don't even need to say the rest.

By the way, I don't think you realize the shift in your viewpoint...

A few posts ago, you were stating that the abortion industry has NOT experienced a decline in business.

Now you are saying, "It ISN'T working !", to indicate that you recognize that their business HAS experienced a financial decline.

Which is it, Rust ? Do you agree, or disagree ?

You carefully word it to exclude any PERSONAL opinion you may have on the subject, thus making you safe (because you can back out of it by saying, "I didn't actually say I believe that the abortion industry is declining. I am using your own "assertions" to debate you.") Though your recent comments strongly indicate that you have changed your mind, or accepted the "facts".

quote:Originally posted by Social Junker:

As several people here have already stated, just because embryonic stem cells have not shown the same level of success as adult stem cells, doesn't mean that we should discontinue research in the area (in my opinion).

Abortions are going to happen, anyway, so why not take advantage of the stem cells that are being made available?

Some people might say that this is a rather non-Buddhist stance to take, but I disagree. As human beings, our existence is supported by the deaths of countless beings everyday, and this cannot be avoided if you wish to stay alive. All you can do is be grateful for the labors of their suffering, and use the strength you receive from them to continue on down the Way.

Also, I should say that in Buddhism, all beings are of equal "value": the death of a fetus is as "important" as the death of a sunflower.



We SHOULD stop if it means exterminating human life.

Abortions don't HAVE to happen "anyway". It is a despicable practice, and the ethics of it are proven NEGATIVE by the behavior of those getting them...they are ashamed, and embarassed. Guilt-ridden. If it isn't bad, why would these emotions arise ?

As a buddhist, I don't think you really ought to support/not support abortion either way. What does that have to do with your religion ? Explain it to me, if you will. I don't claim to remotely understand Buddhism the way I should.

The "death" that is supporting our existence that you speak of is NATURAL death. Not surgically/chemically induced death.

I doubt the babies that find themselves being ripped to shreds during the 7th month of gestation are "grateful" of their contribution to the portion of our race that is SELF-SERVING. (this statement is not referring to stem cell research, but abortion alone.)

If the death of one thing equals the death of another, then how can you justify killing humans to save humans ?

Thank you (honestly) for giving your view on it, since you represent Buddhism here.

quote:why stem cell research is illegal ?

Umm....it isn't.

How much of embryonic stem cell research is actual done with aborted fetuses? Do the women get paid for donating thier fetuses?

I was of the impresion that they used mostly fertalised ovum and never bothered implanting them. I find it hard to concider them humans with souls and such because even inside a fertilw women they have about a ten percent chance of implanting.

whats the point of discussing embryonic stem cells? none of you understand the basic science or concepts behind apparently.

Digital, you are a dumb cunt.

I done talking to you.

Waste of time.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Nice try attempting to "twist" my point.

Maybe I am not being very clear, but I am talking about two different things.

ABORTION and EMBRYONIC STEM CELL RESEARCH.

I am not saying that CURRENTLY abortion has much to do with embryonic stem cell research scientifically. However, the two subjects are becoming synonymous in the American media.

Here is the beginning of the need for "fresh" embryo's: "The human embryonic stem-cell lines eligible for federally funded research are unsuitable for use in humans because they were grown in contact with mouse cells and could conceivably infect humans with mouse viruses, a panel convened by scientists at Johns Hopkins University said." http://womensissues.about.c om/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fseattletimes.nwsourc e.com%2Fhtml%2Fnationworld%2F2001788115_stemcells1 1.html (http://womensissues.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fseattletimes.nwsourc e.com%2Fhtml%2Fnationworld%2F2001788115_stemcells1 1.html)

"I know ! Let's harvest them from abortion clinics. We will compensate the clinics monetarily, so that they will promote the use of aborted fetus' for our research. This in turn will provide us with AMPLE amounts of suitable specimens." (my own words...not quoting a source.)

Again, it's ingenious.

And unnecessary.



I like how you claim I'm twisting something and yet do not show where I have. Good show.



Now, that's what I'm saying isn't working. The "promoting of abortions clinbcis to use aboprted fetuses" isn't working, since abortions are going down, not up.

quote:

What I AM saying is that the abortion industry is experiencing a decrease in profit, which means that they will be trying to find new marketing tactics to promote their business, and quest for money.

Every business does this...finding new angles...new ways to promote, and convince people that their services or products are something we "need".

If you can't even recognize THAT, then...well...I don't even need to say the rest.

By the way, I don't think you realize the shift in your viewpoint...

A few posts ago, you were stating that the abortion industry has NOT experienced a decline in business.

Now you are saying, "It ISN'T working !", to indicate that you recognize that their business HAS experienced a financial decline.

Which is it, Rust ? Do you agree, or disagree ?





You're creating a huge strawman. I never, NOT ONCE, said that the buisness is not declining. It IS delcining, by virtue that abortions are delcining. What I AM saying is, that you evidence proves that this promotion of abotion clinics either doesn't exist, or isn't working, thus making your conspiracy theory a laughable one.

quote:

You carefully word it to exclude any PERSONAL opinion you may have on the subject, thus making you safe (because you can back out of it by saying, "I didn't actually say I believe that the abortion industry is declining. I am using your own "assertions" to debate you.") Though your recent comments strongly indicate that you have changed your mind, or accepted the "facts".

I never "changed my mind" because I never argued otherwise. Quote me EVER saying anything remotely indictating that the abortion "buisness" was growing.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

As you all probably know, Christians are against abortion, for both moral and ethical reasons.

I just wanted to give some information on the successes of Adult Stem Cell Research, in contrast to Embryonic Stem Cell Research.

In my opinion, abortion should not be condoned or promoted, in the name of science. It is not benefitting anyone, and does not show any promise of doing so any time soon. (Think about the term "Embryonic Farming" for a while...seen the movie Matrix ?)

I am not trying to say that people who are not Christian want to kill babies, or that they have no morals. Please don't misunderstand me. Those statement are for another debate altogether.

What I am saying is that using Embryonic Stem Cell Research as a justification for allowing abortion to continue is not only disgusting, but scientifically unsound (unjustified ?).

http://www.cogforlife.org/adultStemCellSuccess.htm "all of these successes have come exclusively from adult stem cell research. Embryonic stem cell research, which requires the destruction of early human life to acquire the cells, has not produced any successes in human patients." Also included on this site are cases of spinal cord injuries that were repaired by Adult Stem Cells.

"While the potency and success of adult stem cell treatments are becoming evident, treatments using embryonic stem cells have not produced any clinical successes. Rather, embryonic stem cell treatments tend to create tumors in numerous animal studies."

Are they lying ?

Other cases of success: http://www.corethics.org/anews.asp

More on ASCE vs. ESCR: http://www.cbhd.org/resources/stemcells/mcconchie_2004-06-16.htm

Progress of Embryonic Stem Cell Research: "Scientists announced yesterday they had achieved one of the most coveted goals in biology by isolating from human embryos and fetuses a primitive kind of cell that can grow into every kind of human tissue, including muscle, bone and brain." http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/cell110698.htm (1998)

Ok, but scientist's have been able to do this with Adult Stem Cells have been doing that for a while now.

"But many researchers believe that embryonic stem cells are more powerful." http://www.wired.com/news/medtech/0,1286,50951,00.html?tw=wn_story_related

But why ?!

Is it possible that this movement is being supported and even PUSHED by the injured abortion industry ? (A.K.A. money)

"About 86% of U.S. counties have no abortion provider. However, most of those counties simply do not provide enough abortion business to support a private clinic, and the abortion rate has been steadily declining since the early 1990s. While over a million unborn children still die from legal abortions every year, the numbers dropped from 1.608 million in 1990 to 1.328 in 1997. In some inner cities, abortion clinics are struggling to survive as competition for patients has triggered intense price wars." http://www.khouse.org/strategictrends/declineofus/20041130-845.html

ABORTION CLINICS: "I know, let's tell the public that aborting their fetus' will BENEFIT people with terminal illness or severe nerve damage. This way, they won't feel so guilty about the procedure." (that all came from me, and isn't a quote from anyone.)

Media Bias - " he pattern in the media reportage about stem cells is growing very wearisome. When a research advance occurs with embryonic stem cells, the media usually give the story the brass-band treatment. However, when researchers announce even greater success using adult stem cells, the media reportage is generally about as intense and excited as a stifled yawn." http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-smith042302.asp

If we can spare the lives of the infants by using a methodology that already works (Adult Stem Cells), why not do it ?

Why are Christians despised for saying, "Hey, this is wrong, and we shouldn't be doing it." ?

DISCLAIMER - I don't believe any of these websites are specifically Christian. I may be wrong on that, but I looked, and didn't see any indication of that.



I didnt read this, it looks like preaching, i hate preaching, its what the church does

quote:Originally posted by MasterPython:

How much of embryonic stem cell research is actual done with aborted fetuses? Do the women get paid for donating thier fetuses?

I was of the impresion that they used mostly fertalised ovum and never bothered implanting them. I find it hard to concider them humans with souls and such because even inside a fertilw women they have about a ten percent chance of implanting.

It is a logical assumption that they will be in the near future, if people don't raise up their voices in rejection of such a practice. (if you don't already consider what they have been saying in the media as support for ESCR for their own personal gain)

Fertilization is the beginning of the formation of human life...if you can please explain to me at what precise moment a human egg becomes a human, I will listen objectively.

If there is a God, is it not conceivable that only He would be able to determine when a "soul" begins to exist ?

WHEN DOES LIFE BEGIN: http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/wdlb/wdlb.html

By the way, I would like to point out that the same scientific community that condones/supports the use of RU 486 (which causes serious side effects, to include DEATH in some cases), supports Embryonic Stem Cell Research.

What I am pointing out is that their opinions on what things the human race should be subjected to in the name of science is not only skewed, but unethical.

That is not a blanket statement...of course there are scientist's that are ethical. I don't mean to say that there aren't.

(Please look at the different forms of abortion...there aren't any pictures on this URL, that I know of. It just explains what each procedure entails. http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/ASMF/asmf.html )

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 02-25-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:



I don't know any Christians that support murder of any kind.

PEOPLE that support murder, in any way shape or form, are not Christian, by definition.



Bullshit,you supported unneccessary war in Iraq, and so did your christian henchmen.



VI. Thou shalt not kill.

What part of this unequivocal statement do you not understand?

quote:Originally posted by fstabber:

whats the point of discussing embryonic stem cells? none of you understand the basic science or concepts behind apparently.

And you apparently don't understand the basic concept of the English language, so by your own logic you should refrain from using it.

quote:Originally posted by MasterPython:

How much of embryonic stem cell research is actually done with aborted fetuses?

0

quote:Originally posted by WolfinSheepsClothing:

Bullshit,you supported unneccessary war in Iraq, and so did your christian henchmen.

VI. Thou shalt not kill.

What part of this unequivocal statement do you not understand?



It was not the "war" (and thus MURDER) that I supported.

I knew that was going to come up.

I will say it again...I DO NOT CONDONE KILLING OF ANY KIND.

What part of the Bible don't you understand ?

You have no right to use it to judge me, when you don't even believe that what it says it true (and let's not even go into how you haven't studied it enough to have an opinion !)

Don't try and make me seem like a hypocrite, using life/spiritual values you know very little about.

Wolf is right...so far as we know, no fetus' (aborted, or otherwise) have been used in ESCR.

Damnit ! I just composed a HUGE post in response to Rust, but I usually type it into a Word document first and then paste it over to my Totse window. Well...

It was lost.

I still have it in Word format, but I have to go through it all and add lines and edit spaces.....crappy monkey work.

I'll do it again tomorrow.

Sorry

I think that abortions are overused as a method of birth control. But I don't think children should have to grow up with parents who would kill them if they knew they could get away with it. I have a feeling that many crib deaths and acidental toddler drownings are not acidents.

Back to ESCR doesn't the Bible or that other Jewish text say that the ability to breath or the act of breathing was required to be human. The whole issue is just a matter of degres. The pill and IUD could be concidered murder if you decide that life begins at conception. Banning ESCR would be saying that cells in test tubes are more alive than cells in living people.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

It was not the "war" (and thus MURDER) that I supported.

I knew that was going to come up.

I will say it again...I DO NOT CONDONE KILLING OF ANY KIND.

What part of the Bible don't you understand ?

You have no right to use it to judge me, when you don't even believe that what it says it true (and let's not even go into how you haven't studied it enough to have an opinion !)

Don't try and make me seem like a hypocrite, using life/spiritual values you know very little about.



1) Maybe I’m getting senile, but I remember you arguing for the Iraq war, or whatever euphemism they use for war these days.



2) If it is true that you DO NOT CONDONE KILLING OF ANY KIND, then perhaps you should have been vehemently against going into Iraq, that wasn’t the case, now was it?

3) Glad you asked, I don’t understand Genesis; specifically I don’t understand how Adam could have seen the light from stars, considering it takes millions of years for the light of stars to reach earth. Even Proxima Centauri is 4.3 light years away. It doesn’t make sense.



4) The only part of the bible relevant to this argument is: VI. Thou shalt not kill. I understand that.



5) I believe you when you say: I DO NOT CONDONE KILLING OF ANY KIND, but your stance on war in Iraq did make you look hypocritical.

You need to clarify life/spiritual values, before I can ascertain how little I know about them.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I AM A WOMAN, jerk.

I know what my rights should and should not be...

I don't know any Christians that support murder of any kind.

PEOPLE that support murder, in any way shape or form, are not Christian, by definition.

And by saying that "because Christians support the murder of grown children", you seem to be trying to justify killing innocent UNBORN children.

How asinine is that ?

"Well, YOU do it, so why can't we ?"

You are about as uneducated as a gnat.

Sorry if that was mean, but....damn.



How dumb are you? Was my post directed to you personally? Or are you identifying yourself with christians everywhere?

In the same post I supported that fetuses are not "innocent children" so there's no murder involved in an abortion. You obviously have problems reading anything that doesn't agree with you. Remove your blinders.

From your arrogant nickname to your posts I can see that what you consider as education is the unquestioned reading of the bible. Considering this, the average 14 year old of this forum is much more educated than you. Unless of course you intentionally twist my words to your advantage.

<quote>Abortions don't HAVE to happen "anyway". It is a despicable practice, and the ethics of it are proven NEGATIVE by the behavior of those getting them...they are ashamed, and embarassed. Guilt-ridden. If it isn't bad, why would these emotions arise ?</quote>

This statement is fucked up beyond belief. Ashamed and embarassed? Guilt-ridden?? You fail to mention sadness because that's the only genuine emotion that could come from an abortion. Shamefulness and guilt are brought by religion-suppressed society and religion-perpetuated stereotypes that still HAUNT women after all these years. Maybe you were lucky in life but that doesnt give you the right to play "savior" to others less fortunate. You maybe a woman but you're a bane to your own sex.

And reading the last few posts of this thread I see you were supporting the Iraq war indeed. That's why you were so upset I mentioned that. Let me direct you to a bible passage that describes you. Matthew 23.27.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

As you all probably know, Christians are against abortion, for both moral and ethical reasons.

I just wanted to give some information on the successes of Adult Stem Cell Research, in contrast to Embryonic Stem Cell Research.

In my opinion, abortion should not be condoned or promoted, in the name of science. It is not benefitting anyone, and does not show any promise of doing so any time soon. (Think about the term "Embryonic Farming" for a while...seen the movie Matrix ?)

I am not trying to say that people who are not Christian want to kill babies, or that they have no morals. Please don't misunderstand me. Those statement are for another debate altogether.

What I am saying is that using Embryonic Stem Cell Research as a justification for allowing abortion to continue is not only disgusting, but scientifically unsound (unjustified ?).

http://www.cogforlife.org/adultStemCellSuccess.htm "all of these successes have come exclusively from adult stem cell research. Embryonic stem cell research, which requires the destruction of early human life to acquire the cells, has not produced any successes in human patients." Also included on this site are cases of spinal cord injuries that were repaired by Adult Stem Cells.

"While the potency and success of adult stem cell treatments are becoming evident, treatments using embryonic stem cells have not produced any clinical successes. Rather, embryonic stem cell treatments tend to create tumors in numerous animal studies."

Are they lying ?

Other cases of success: http://www.corethics.org/anews.asp

More on ASCE vs. ESCR: http://www.cbhd.org/resources/stemcells/mcconchie_2004-06-16.htm

Progress of Embryonic Stem Cell Research: "Scientists announced yesterday they had achieved one of the most coveted goals in biology by isolating from human embryos and fetuses a primitive kind of cell that can grow into every kind of human tissue, including muscle, bone and brain." http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/cell110698.htm (1998)

Ok, but scientist's have been able to do this with Adult Stem Cells have been doing that for a while now.

"But many researchers believe that embryonic stem cells are more powerful." http://www.wired.com/news/medtech/0,1286,50951,00.html?tw=wn_story_related

But why ?!

Is it possible that this movement is being supported and even PUSHED by the injured abortion industry ? (A.K.A. money)

"About 86% of U.S. counties have no abortion provider. However, most of those counties simply do not provide enough abortion business to support a private clinic, and the abortion rate has been steadily declining since the early 1990s. While over a million unborn children still die from legal abortions every year, the numbers dropped from 1.608 million in 1990 to 1.328 in 1997. In some inner cities, abortion clinics are struggling to survive as competition for patients has triggered intense price wars." http://www.khouse.org/strategictrends/declineofus/20041130-845.html

ABORTION CLINICS: "I know, let's tell the public that aborting their fetus' will BENEFIT people with terminal illness or severe nerve damage. This way, they won't feel so guilty about the procedure." (that all came from me, and isn't a quote from anyone.)

Media Bias - " he pattern in the media reportage about stem cells is growing very wearisome. When a research advance occurs with embryonic stem cells, the media usually give the story the brass-band treatment. However, when researchers announce even greater success using adult stem cells, the media reportage is generally about as intense and excited as a stifled yawn." http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-smith042302.asp

If we can spare the lives of the infants by using a methodology that already works (Adult Stem Cells), why not do it ?

Why are Christians despised for saying, "Hey, this is wrong, and we shouldn't be doing it." ?

DISCLAIMER - I don't believe any of these websites are specifically Christian. I may be wrong on that, but I looked, and didn't see any indication of that.

ahahahahahahha christians! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

stfu^^