I can't ever stop thinking about that.

I asked the preacher at my old church and he just got mad for some reason!?

You're placing limitations on God(that he was created). If you're talking about god then you must realize that you cannot apply human limitations towards him. Just because we were created, it does not mean that are creator had to be created.

Summary: Try to think outside of the box and realize that human logic cannot fully comprehend a god.

yes but how could somebody be there for all eternity

It's not just "somebody", it's fucking GOD. You have to realize that God is capable of things that you and I can't even begin to comprehend.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v12/i1/universe.asp

Look up pantheism and Spinoza, he sums that problem up pretty good.

It's like that MC Escher picture of the two hands drawing each other...

God, I'm fucked up.

Cheers,

Lost

I realized that when I was like, 5.

They never could explain. http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

and that answering-genesis website:

1. Misrepresents science in saying that it claims that the universe existed for ever.

They're about 200 years too late to go off at us about THAT.

They mention ideas popularized by Isaac Asimov... what the fuck?

he was a Science fiction writer!



and

2. "God, as creator of time, is outside of time. Since therefore He has no beginning in time, He has always existed, so doesn’t need a cause."

Besides that they just claimed that everything has to have a cause...

How can you argue with that?

How the hell is that falsifiable?

If you're going to spew out pseudointellectual bullshit like that, there isn't any point trying to have a logical argument with you.

I'm sure I could copy-paste a proper refutation, but I'm not in the buisness of that, I'd rather just post my own thoughts.

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:

It's like that MC Escher picture of the two hands drawing each other...

God, I'm fucked up.

Cheers,

Lost

I love Escher. His drawings are so damn interesting.

To quote George Michaels...

"You gottah have faith"

Thats what my parents told me when they were Christians.

In response to your question, it was Aristotle's theory of the "Prime Mover" that is the basis for modern theological thought, at least in monotheistic terms. Ergo, Aristotle created God.

Whats with people giving ownership of these ideas to the first person to have been recognized for having them? I'm sure many people have come to the same conclusions as Aristotle had... The difference between them and Aristotle was that he was the kind that drew a crowd and taught others therefore becoming famed and written about. That is all.

That answersingenesis thing is outofdate and misses a few points/questions of interest anyway, like "why is god the one who wasnt created?".

Simple proof:

-Something cannot come from nothing.

-Something exists.

-Therefore, something mustve been around forever.

Christianity just decides to arbitarily believe that god is the one who was around forever (and that hes still around). Ive never seen any proof of this. Ive never heard of any ideas about it how it could even be possible to prove this (or disprove it) with the current tech we have either.

Another point to note is that things that have a beginning dont have to have a cause (in the sense of a justification for its coming into existance); they can just be random.

Final point to note is that time is not a dimension, not as einstein thought it was anyway. Time is simply a measure of movement. Therefore it can exist before the universe as we know it (unless everything is stationary).



napoleon_complex, regarding the posts you made near the start of this thread, isnt that just a way of saying that logic doesnt apply when you dont want it to apply?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dearestnight_falcon:

and that answering-genesis website:

1. Misrepresents science in saying that it claims that the universe existed for ever.

i'm sorry, but i dont see in the article that it is claiming that science says the universe existed for ever. This article is answering the question "If God created the universe, then who created God?"

It was just describing, to laypersons, the philisophical arguement, that God can be eternal while the universe does not.

They mention ideas popularized by Isaac Asimov... what the fuck?

he was a Science fiction writer!

He also wrote much non-fiction on many subjects. You also said "popularized". That may or may not be work of his own, but done as a "journalist".

http://www.asimovonline.com/oldsite/essay_guide.html



I'm sure I could copy-paste a proper refutation, but I'm not in the buisness of that, I'd rather just post my own thoughts.

I figured, "why reinvent the wheel".

God didn't create the world, man created God, then said God created the world to fill some gaps in things that don't make sense yet. The problem with making something up to fill in for things you don't understand is that it creates paradoxes exactly like this one. The escher painting is a good analogy, the two hands drawing each other are the world and God, which came first? It's a paradox. But it was a man that drew that picture just as it's man that created the question.

quote:Originally posted by DarkMage35:

napoleon_complex, regarding the posts you made near the start of this thread, isnt that just a way of saying that logic doesnt apply when you dont want it to apply?

No, it's saying that a human trying to define god is impossible, because that would imply that humans created god which is false. To say that a human can define it's creator makes no sense.

Also, a human suffers from fallacy and faults. Humans are not perfect. God is perfect. When an imperfect being attempts to define a perfect being, the perfect being no longer becomes perfect due to the faults of the imperfect being. What I'm basically saying is that humans transcribe their own weaknesses on to god, even though god cannot suffer from human weaknesses.

quote:Originally posted by Krispy:

To quote George Michaels...

"You gottah have faith"

Thats what my parents told me when they were Christians.



Why did your parents give up being christian?.

Not that its a bad thing but, was it something you did?.

All of the above would become irrelivant when one realises that God doesnt actually exist.

People need something to blame or scapegoat mishappenings or unexplainable, unthinkable events on ie : "X disaster must have been God's will its all ok"

Man realises there is no answer, man creates god to make himself feel better about the whole situation.

[This message has been edited by Unhallowed (edited 02-28-2005).]

buddah created him when he was stoned

what the fuck do you think

quote:Originally posted by stncld316555:

buddah created him when he was stoned

what the fuck do you think

That's not funny or clever. Who exactly are you trying to impress?

I created God as a science project. I failed, too, cos he was a right bastard.

quote:Originally posted by Lacedwithdelight:



Why did your parents give up being christian?.

Not that its a bad thing but, was it something you did?.

They didn't really give it up as much as it fell out from under them.

My parents were both ridiculous druggies throughout the 70's. They're the classic story of kids, raised in Christian homes, rebelling, running away from home with eachother, then once they have a kid (me) they go back to their parents, console, and become Christians. They get a divorce, go back to drug use

It's a huge ass cycle.

thats what i HATE about fucking religons

they answer a question with a lot more except telling you that you can't ask them.

naplean put it this way, if god made us and we cant comprehend hwo he was made dont u think its reasonabley acceptable that we cant comprehend how we were made?



my theory is that we are like a big maths sum.

It's only impossible to comprehend how we came to be if you're looking at God as the sole answer...sure, some mysterious being we know nothing about may have given us a running start, but there's no evidence or mark of a creator anywhere in the universe.

I pose this to anyone who wants to do so: Present me with your evidence of God and I will refute it, with full citations of any source I feel I need the help of. Hell, feel free to even use the Bible as a source of your arguments (I can kill anything from that book of holes).

All right then.

Given that time a measurement of the movement of matter (stop all matter movement and you have effectively stopped time):

All matter is in motion

Objects in motion stay in motion unless acted upon by an outside force. Objects at rest stay at rest unless acted upon by an outside force

Therefore, there must be a force that exists out of the time-space spectrum that started matter in motion and therefore started time. This force we call God.

One could just as easily shift the burden of proof to atheism.

[This message has been edited by Sentinel owl (edited 03-02-2005).]

Or an event where the laws of Physics as we know them do not apply, and therefore neither time nor Newtonian mechanics matter... the Big Bang.

EDIT: To answer the obvious upcoming question, 'I don't know. If what made it possible for the Big Bang to exist, remains a mystery for Science; if Science cannot explain it, even after hundreds of years, then yes, one could conclude that a supernatural force made it possible for the Big Bang to occur.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 03-02-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



I figured, "why reinvent the wheel".

http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v12/i1/universe.asp

Your article argues that god has existed for eternity, that is, that he has existed an infinite amount of time before the creation of the universe ("God is ‘the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity’ (Is. 57:15).").

If there was an infinite amount of time before the creation of the universe, then it would be impossible for god to have reached this moment in time, since he must have traversed that infinite amount, and since as you know, "infinity" is never ending.

But your article goes on to claim, "Since God, by definition, is the creator of the whole universe, he is the creator of time. Therefore He is not limited by the time dimension He created". Ignoring the fact this this is mere circular reasoning, the article is in effect saying that god can do the logically impossible.

Now here's the problem. The article goes on to say, in an effort to appear logically consistent (i.e. that it follows formal rules of debate):

"There are only two ways to refute an argument:

1. Show that it is logically invalid"

By their own admittance, if we show a logical inconsistency in the argument then that argument is refuted. God being able to transcend the un-transcendent, is logically impossible, and therefore "logically invalid".

The article refuted itself.

Occam's Razor (http://home.earthlink.net/~darkmagneto/orazor.gif)

I think that people created god...I mean, think about it, if a person is staring at a pot, wanting it to boil, it has been proven that that pot begins to boil sooner than a pot that is not being willed by an outside force. It is not by much, just a few seconds, but still...image an entire globe of people believeing in a god, think about what could happen from that...

The universe is pretty fucked up, if I do say so myself...

Signed,

Nameless

I'm not questioning God here or saying he doesn't exist... but keep in mind that people make up gods to describe why things happen or why things are. Yeah like the last guy said.

Everybody who said something to the effect of "God doesn't exist" is a complete and utter idiot, devoid of any redeeming characteristics, and frankly ought to kill themselves and reduce the surplus population. That's not what the post is about. The topic assumes that god exists, so take your pseudo-intellectual-look-how-cool-I-am-because-I-insipidly-rebel-against-the-status-quo-which-isn't-the-status-quo-anymore-really banter elsewhere, kids.

The best answer I've ever heard came from my calculus class when we were discussing limits (which, for the uninitiated, finds the value of a function as it approaches infinity).

One of the kids asked "well, where does it stop?" and my math teacher gave us this parable:

quote:

A student asked a wise zen master what held up the world; the zen master replied, "elephants." The student then asked what held up that elephant, to which the zen master said "elephants all the way down"



That's the way I like to think about it. If God has existed forever, he transcends time - he always has and always will exist, for ever and forever. Think a priori.

Who created God? Humans did.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

You're placing limitations on God(that he was created). If you're talking about god then you must realize that you cannot apply human limitations towards him. Just because we were created, it does not mean that are creator had to be created.

Summary: Try to think outside of the box and realize that human logic cannot fully comprehend a god.

or just relize that there is no god. that would be smart

quote:Originally posted by Nazi:

or just relize that there is no god. that would be smart

And you know this how?

things dont exist until there is proof they do, NOT the other way around.

if i said we were a tiny bit of shit in an even bigger universe, would you believe that?

quote:Originally posted by jamez:

things dont exist until there is proof they do, NOT the other way around.

so atoms didnt exist 3000 years ago? Hmmm interesting.

What's wrong with the arguement that God caused/created space and time and therefore he needs no beginning, middle or an end

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

so atoms didnt exist 3000 years ago? Hmmm interesting.



He's not arguing that, you're deliberately misinterpreting what he is saying.

The evidence/proof points to atoms existing since the the Big Bang... therefore they DID exist 3,000 years ago.

God is an alien from another plante it is not just one god but a plante of gods. They built this habital plante for us so they could experment with use. They created us just to see how we would act.

Actually im just fucking around god has always been here for as long as anyone can remember so just shut up and BELIEVE.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

He's not arguing that, you're deliberately misinterpreting what he is saying.

The evidence/proof points to atoms existing since the the Big Bang... therefore they DID exist 3,000 years ago.

No Rust, he said, "things dont exist until there is proof".

evidence now, says there is proof that the exist. but 3000 years ago, they hadnt even been concieved by anyone, even though they existed then too.

i didnt misinterpret what he said, deliberately or otherwise.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

No Rust, he said, "things dont exist until there is proof".

evidence now, says there is proof that the exist. but 3000 years ago, they hadnt even been concieved by anyone, even though they existed then too.

i didnt misinterpret what he said, deliberately or otherwise.



... and since the evidence points to them having existed 3,000 years ago, then they DID exist 3,000 years ago.

I think its obvious what he meant, you're just being pendantic.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 03-04-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by DarkMage35:



Simple proof:

-Something cannot come from nothing.

-Something exists.

-Therefore, something mustve been around forever.



It's refreshing to hear this! Nothing cannot exist, to say nothing exists is to state an oxymoron, it's like desireless desire - nonsense. To say the first cause was the impossibility of there being nothing is not radical, it's good maths. Zero is a purely theoretical concept, if I were to ask to be shown zero/nothing, where would I go?

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

You're placing limitations on God(that he was created). If you're talking about god then you must realize that you cannot apply human limitations towards him. Just because we were created, it does not mean that are creator had to be created.

Summary: Try to think outside of the box and realize that human logic cannot fully comprehend a god.



Nobody cares about your opinion retard.

quote:Originally posted by robyextreme:



Nobody cares about your opinion retard.

Good for you.

not that im christan or follow any other religion, not that it should matter, but these are dark days for totse, creators i have pity for you and all your hard work which is with time going further down the spout.

anyway, i once asked a christian "how is god like he is, how did he become who he is, how was he created?" and he said "the human mind isnt capable of understanding him, or much about him, but once you die and move on, you'll be able to understand"

i'll have to admit, it was the best answer ive heard so far, but no, it didnt change my mind. religion was just an excuse for all the 'wise men' of the prehistoric ages for not knowing the answer to anything.

think about it, all the answers which they couldnt possibly have became part of religion, where did we come from? god made us

where did the earth come from? god made it

whats that bright thing in the sky? god made it.

well thats my 2 cents newase

if the typos an lazy'n'dyslexic spelling errors bother you.

buy a gun, buy 2 rounds for that guy, shoot yourself twice in the head, then complane

This may not make sense to some, but here we go.

I feel, that maybe the fact that God WILL exsist at one point in time, or was supposed to, is what created him.

To explain this better, imagine a movie is written, the events in that script is what created the movie, so perhaps everything that was to come, that thought, that... foreshadow is what created God, and made things fall into a pre-ordered sequence.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Or an event where the laws of Physics as we know them do not apply, and therefore neither time nor Newtonian mechanics matter... the Big Bang.

EDIT: To answer the obvious upcoming question, 'I don't know. If what made it possible for the Big Bang to exist, remains a mystery for Science; if Science cannot explain it, even after hundreds of years, then yes, one could conclude that a supernatural force made it possible for the Big Bang to occur.





what bollox you talk

please remeber that after hundreds of years scientists once said the univers revolved around the world, and that the world was flat.

somthing which perhaps every child on earth knows today, would have been a shit hot topic of descusion with the worlds leading scientists.

"But now the problem is that there's just no evidence whatsoever that the initial singularity has such extraordinary properties. Nothing in classical or quantum cosmology even suggests that the singularity is metaphysically necessary. In fact, there's no evidence to suggest that the singularity is even nomologically necessary. That is to say, it's not even necessary according to the laws of nature. The laws of nature permit all sorts of non-singular cosmological models. Thus, the singularity cannot be metaphysically necessary."

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

It's not just "somebody", it's fucking GOD. You have to realize that God is capable of things that you and I can't even begin to comprehend.

quote:Originally posted by ORCAT:



what bollox you talk

please remeber that after hundreds of years scientists once said the univers revolved around the world, and that the world was flat.

somthing which perhaps every child on earth knows today, would have been a shit hot topic of descusion with the worlds leading scientists.



What the fuck are you babling about?

"God defies logic." "God is beyond all thes limitations.. transcends our dimensions." ...la, la , la, and all that bullshit.

These are sad, sorry arguments. I'm surprised people over 8 years old use such a poor structured defense. Good shit, we all know you bible thumpers are wrong, but you could at least entertain us with more creative arguments. Save that, "Nu-uh, God is not comprehensible by humans cause I said so." weak shit for when you brain wash your kids.