Christianity is founded on shaky ground. Most 'non-believers' agree on this, I am sure. I think that this weak foundation could potentially be the cause of this religion's downfall. Of course, the question that determines whether or not it will 'die' is: Do people look more for comfort (even though it may be false comfort) or reason?

Any psychologists care to contribute to this thread?

It will die one day. You just need to have faith.

Eventually it'll die out. Or morph and change into other religions. It will proably last quite awhile though, as alot of people in power are Christians.

Itll die out sooner than you think. How many people become priests nowadays?

Soon priests will be only in major cities.. then only in capital cities.. 1 - 2 generations from now the only priests will be in the vatican.

quote:Originally posted by dagnabitt:

It will die one day. You just need to have faith.



If there is no God, then ya, it'll probably die out.

BUT

If God is, belief will continue-- and faith-- and also non-belief... until Judgement- when there will no longer be denial.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



If there is no God, then ya, it'll probably die out.

BUT

If God is, belief will continue-- and faith-- and also non-belief... until Judgement- when there will no longer be denial.



Why should Christianity die out? Christianity (and other religions) are dependant on belief in God,not on the actual existance of God.

As long as there are people who are willing to believe in a God, without any physical evidence of a God's existance, Christianity and other religins will flourish.

If god exists (christians have a warped idea of god anyway) but even if god exists, he did just fine before christians, and he'll be just fine after them.



Now obviously if you are a christian you wont see it that way. But if you're not there is no reason to consider christian beliefs in particular when evaluating christianity in general. It will die.

"Christianity" has died many times. Not totally wiped out of existance, just changed significantly.

The Christianity of today is different than Christiniaty of say, 1200 AD?

Hell, Christianity of today is alot different from Christianity of just 100 years ago (and less)

In America and Europe Christianity is headed down pretty quickly I think in some ways. At my school in rural Illinois, I think like half the students believe in God and probably less care much about Him. But I also have the feeling that its gonna be on the rebound. And in places like Africa and China its growing tremendously and will keep growing that way for a long time. So Christianity won't die out anytime soon.

quote:Originally posted by dagnabitt:

If god exists (christians have a warped idea of god anyway) but even if god exists, he did just fine before christians, and he'll be just fine after them.



Now obviously if you are a christian you wont see it that way. But if you're not there is no reason to consider christian beliefs in particular when evaluating christianity in general. It will die.

It is interesting how you formulate such a negative opinion about something you don't understand.

When God created man, Christianity began.

Not in the sense that "Christ" had been sacrificed to the world yet, but salvation was needed from God.

It was the same scenario, just different requirements.

Christianity will not die. Prophecy in Revelation describes exactly how things will go from here on out...

You should probably read it, if you want to have an educated opinion on the subject.

ZMan - How can you perceive Christianity to be on a downward spiral in America ?

There has been a revival going on for 10 years.

Not to mention the fact that Christians turned out in DROVES for this past presidential election, and WON.

The numbers speak for themselves.

Garibaldi - you are right, but that fact does not make what you are saying true.

Christianity has changed because of science, and because of the study of the scrolls.

The fundamental basis for it has remained the same.

Believe in God, be saved and go to heaven.

I dont think christianity is dying out at all.

Its not necessarily the catholics that are on the rise, either. People mightn't all be rushing to become priests, but theirs still plenty of ministers, etc around.

There also seems to be a rise in the amount of openly religious (christian) people where I live. Now I see kids in empty classrooms praying at Lunch. Never would've seen that 5 years ago.

And its these young people keeping the faith that are going to pass it on.

quote:Originally posted by dagnabitt:

It will die one day. You just need to have faith.

hahaha damn mods are so funny!

Die? No. Islam will overtake it as the world's largest religion though. Most christians are not reproducing as much as the rest of the world...

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

The fundamental basis for it has remained the same.

Believe in God, be saved and go to heaven.

Well it used to kinda be Believe in God, Believe the Pope speaks for God, Do good works, ppay your tithes to the church, and go to heaven.

But yeah, your right, the basics of it are the same, it's just the way it's practiced and how literally people take it.

Anyways, a Christian isn't gonna see this the same way as a non-Christian

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

ZMan - How can you perceive Christianity to be on a downward spiral in America ?

The numbers speak for themselves.

Because with Generation X it is. I would know.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

It is interesting how you formulate such a negative opinion about something you don't understand.

When God created man, Christianity began.

Not in the sense that "Christ" had been sacrificed to the world yet, but salvation was needed from God.

It was the same scenario, just different requirements.

Christianity will not die. Prophecy in Revelation describes exactly how things will go from here on out...

You should probably read it, if you want to have an educated opinion on the subject.

What you said is only relevant IF your a christian. To anyone that isnt, Chritianity started with Jesus. Even before Abraham, God was doing his thing for billions of years. Your beliefs, DS, are self- referential and self serving. This is my beef with you guys, you NEVER talk about Christianity as a religion you talk about it as if its in inherant truth. The bible does nothing for God. God and religion are very difeerent.

As a youth, I feel like there is a one-step forward, two-steps back thing going on.

I have seen a small "revival" of sorts in kids, but there are twice as many who are not just non-christian, but thoroughly anti-christian. I see the youth becoming "disenchanted" with the idea of christianity, and I think it's more than just "kids not likeing church, or rebelling from their parents"; it's that kids are sincerely pissed-off at the institution of christianity in it's many sects and are also seriously thinking about the discrepencies and hypocracies of the worldview of the Judeo-Christian God.

Now, because I have only lived this childhood, I don't know if kids have always been like this; but it seems like it's much worse than say 20 years ago. And in that way, I would say that Christianity is going through a recession, but I don't think death. I think that the ferocity of the new anti-christians is nearly matched with the passion of the new born-again teens, they are just outnumbered, but they will live on.

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

Because with Generation X it is. I would know.

Actually no. It's not.

Can you just do a Google search ? You'll see what I am talking about.

quote:Originally posted by dagnabitt:

What you said is only relevant IF your a christian. To anyone that isnt, Chritianity started with Jesus. Even before Abraham, God was doing his thing for billions of years. Your beliefs, DS, are self- referential and self serving. This is my beef with you guys, you NEVER talk about Christianity as a religion you talk about it as if its in inherant truth. The bible does nothing for God. God and religion are very difeerent.



I don't believe Christianity is a religion. I believe it is a relationship with God.

I believe it to be the truth, and therefore must approach it from the standpoint that it is.

I wouldn't have much conviction for my own faith if I didn't.

You are right on only one aspect: God and religion are very different.

Z - This is how I view Catholicism: Matthew 23:15 "Woe to you teachers of the law and Pharisees ! You hypocrites ! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much the son of Hell as you are."

That was Jesus, speaking to the Pharisees, which I consider the modern day Catholic church to be.

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

As a youth, I feel like there is a one-step forward, two-steps back thing going on.

I have seen a small "revival" of sorts in kids, but there are twice as many who are not just non-christian, but thoroughly anti-christian. I see the youth becoming "disenchanted" with the idea of christianity, and I think it's more than just "kids not likeing church, or rebelling from their parents"; it's that kids are sincerely pissed-off at the institution of christianity in it's many sects and are also seriously thinking about the discrepencies and hypocracies of the worldview of the Judeo-Christian God.

Now, because I have only lived this childhood, I don't know if kids have always been like this; but it seems like it's much worse than say 20 years ago. And in that way, I would say that Christianity is going through a recession, but I don't think death. I think that the ferocity of the new anti-christians is nearly matched with the passion of the new born-again teens, they are just outnumbered, but they will live on.

You are totally, right, Tribe.

It began with the goverment taking God out of schools in 1962.

We now have the product of a society that shuns God, on all levels.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I don't believe Christianity is a religion. I believe it is a relationship with God.

I believe it to be the truth, and therefore must approach it from the standpoint that it is.

I wouldn't have much conviction for my own faith if I didn't.

You are right on only one aspect: God and religion are very different.

And that makes you impossible to argue with, because by your own admittance you refuse to criticise your religion. Yet you use your religion as the base argument for all your argumements. From any non-christian perspective you come off a merely slef serving. You prove nothing.

And it is a religion to anyone else, open to criticism in the greater name of truth. You just refuse to play by the rules, because you pedjuicially refuse to accept anyhthing that contradicts your faith.

This is why people dislike christians. They believe they have a monolpoly on God.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Actually no. It's not.

Can you just do a Google search ? You'll see what I am talking about.

Yeah, I'm gonna google something that I have experience with...Not to say there aren't a lot of Christian youth but its getting to the point where atheist youth are going to outnumber us.

Jesus condemned corruption in Judaism, not Judaism itself. That was the whole point of the chapter. Why would Jesus be against a religion God set up?

Well said, Dagnabitt. I've noticed, on several occasions, Digital Saviour's tendency to do this. Self-serving...nicely put.

Pleez, all christians say that christianity has been on the rise lately. BS

quote:Originally posted by marusushi:

Pleez, all christians say that christianity has been on the rise lately. BS

Except when they want to play the victim in this "evil, secualr, god-hating country"

quote:Originally posted by marusushi:

Pleez, all christians say that christianity has been on the rise lately. BS



In Africa, it is. I wonder how charitable Western Christians would be to their fellow believers if they visited evangelical Africa? I bet they'd treat them like shit.

quote:Originally posted by chaski86:

Well said, Dagnabitt. I've noticed, on several occasions, Digital Saviour's tendency to do this. Self-serving...nicely put.

Hmmm..I sense a bit of bigotry going on here.

You've been here all of a month (at least with this current screen name), and you think you have gotten me all figured out.

Well, I've got news for you...I am as far from self-serving as an American comes.

That has little to do with my Christianity, since I was that way before I became one.

Suffice it to say that you haven't the foggiest idea what kind of person I am, so your opinion is worthless.

Please address Christianity directly. Attacking me personally does nothing to support your angsty, faddish rebellion against your Creator.

quote:Originally posted by chaski86:

Well said, Dagnabitt. I've noticed, on several occasions, Digital Saviour's tendency to do this. Self-serving...nicely put.

Oh the irony.

um what if he doesn't believe in the christian version of god or any higher power at all? I'm christian myself, but government and religion having anything to do with eachother creates problems sortof like Locke's viewpoint.

quote:Originally posted by marusushi:

Pleez, all christians say that christianity has been on the rise lately. BS

And everyone that listens to Dan Rather believes that the world is in some sort of over-population crisis.

I don't say it because it gives me warm fuzzies to think that it is true.

I say it, because it IS true.

And I will say the TRUTH when Christianity takes a nose-dive, which it will, according to the prophecies contained within Revelation.

I don't really care how many people say that they are "Christian", since most of them haven't a clue what it entails to begin with.

The religion's popularity does nothing to convince me of God's existence, and in the power of the blood of Christ. God existed before man created the religion of Christianity, so why should it influence me either way how many of us there are on the planet ?

The outcome will be the same, no matter the number of any religious persons, when God comes back for His church.

But I'm probably getting over your head now.

"angsy, faddish rebellion." Have you read any of my fucking posts? That's far from rebellion. I have formulated everything I know practically alone - I'm in this for the long run. I am long past rebellion.

And as for you, YES. I HAVE read a LOT of your posts. And every single phrase that you have posted bleeds your personality and your blind beliefs. You may post Bible verses and the occassional scientific point, but these do nothing except show your fundamental beliefs.

Totse, can I get a hell yeah? THis bitch has been annoying me since the first post I read of hers. I go to a Christian school FULL of fundis. I know her kind and I've heard all of her shit before.

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

Oh the irony.

]

Irony noted. We all are on an agenda here. But there is a difference between dogma and philosophy.

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

Yeah, I'm gonna google something that I have experience with...Not to say there aren't a lot of Christian youth but its getting to the point where atheist youth are going to outnumber us.

Jesus condemned corruption in Judaism, not Judaism itself. That was the whole point of the chapter. Why would Jesus be against a religion God set up?



I was saying that you should Google how many Christians are in the world, which is reported as being 33%. (about 75% of adults in America and Canada consider themselves Christian.) http://www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htm

If you don't care about the truth, then don't go touting off as if you do.

I am not denying that the number of "athiest's" is rising, no matter the age group.

That wasn't my point.

By saying that they will outnumber "us", you make it sound as if they are staging an anti-Christian coup.

People will believe what they will, and they will war with each other regardless of that.

Jesus did NO SUCH THING (in regards to condemning the corruption of Judaism). That is the most preposterous thing I have ever heard...

He condemned the pompous, contentious religious leaders for using fear and judgement to rule the people, misleading them into bondage under the law.

For someone who is about to be officially accepted into the Catholic religion, you don't seem to know a whole lot about it.

Jesus obviously wasn't against anything God ordained, which is why you are in err. God was extremely displeased with the way the temples were being ran. Jesus responded accordingly.

He opened the people's eyes, so that they could begin to have a healthy relationship with God. He helped them to see the truth, which was that God LOVED them, not that He was out to get them.

I don't understand how you can read the same Bible I do, and derive something so different.

Little variances are understandable, but that story is blatantly obvious, and you have totally missed the purpose.

quote:Originally posted by Garibaldi:

Except when they want to play the victim in this "evil, secualr, god-hating country"

So, I play the martyr often, eh ?

Apparently I am capable of being too prideful, and completely prideLESS at the exact same time !

Wonders never cease.

quote:Originally posted by AngrySquirrel:



In Africa, it is. I wonder how charitable Western Christians would be to their fellow believers if they visited evangelical Africa? I bet they'd treat them like shit.

If God would give me the opportunity to truly be a vessel of His will, I would take it.

As a matter of fact, there is a job offer in Kuwait my family and I are praying heavily about.

It is a scary prospect, and of course I am constantly worrying about how my children will fair out there...

But what would be better than to completely anihilate our comfort zones ? To serve Him completely, won't we have to deny everything that we hold valuable (meaning "possessions") ?

I am not entirely decided yet, but doing mission work is always something I have considered. I have been feeling very convicted lately...

Anyway, I think everyone is so focused on how hypocritical Christians are, that they lose sight of how hypocritical THEY themselves are.

None of us are blameless...everyone just hates Christians for telling them that they aren't.

quote:Originally posted by chaski86:

"angsy, faddish rebellion." Have you read any of my fucking posts? That's far from rebellion. I have formulated everything I know practically alone - I'm in this for the long run. I am long past rebellion.

And as for you, YES. I HAVE read a LOT of your posts. And every single phrase that you have posted bleeds your personality and your blind beliefs. You may post Bible verses and the occassional scientific point, but these do nothing except show your fundamental beliefs.

Totse, can I get a hell yeah? THis bitch has been annoying me since the first post I read of hers. I go to a Christian school FULL of fundis. I know her kind and I've heard all of her shit before.

As long as you are denying your Creator His due credit, you are in complete rebellion.

If my posts didn't bleed my personality, I would worry...actually, I'd commit myself.

What else are my posts supposed to bleed of, if not my own personality ?

Are you insinuating that if I am to be Christian, I must not be recognizable as myself at all ?

I will always be human, and more specifically, myself. That doesn't mean that I shouldn't continue to try and share the gospel with others.

A requirement of sharing one's faith within Christianity is not perfection.

My posts SHOULD represent my fundamental beliefs. *LAUGHS*

I annoy you because my words grate on your conscience. You can't stand that I may be right, and you have a gut feeling that I am. Even if it is not recognizable to your logical mind right now, it will be one day.

No one wants to hear that. I recognize that.

But it still needs to be said, from time to time.

And I guarantee you don't know "my kind"....in the slightest.

quote:Irony noted. We all are on an agenda here. But there is a difference between dogma and philosophy.

And if you bothered to listen to an iota of what I say, you would know that it has nothing to do with dogma.

My experiences have led me to the path that I am on today. No amount of "information" could have convinced me so profoundly that God exists.

It was a spiritual experience.

I am sorry that you have not yet had something similar, and I pray that one day you do.

In the mean time, attacking me won't help you relieve your conscience.

Last time I checked, philosophy had nothing to do with God (as a science), and this IS a religious debate forum...

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 03-07-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

[B] And if you bothered to listen to an iota of what I say, you would know that it has nothing to do with dogma.

I have. Its dogmatic.



quote:Last time I checked, philosophy had nothing to do with God (as a science), and this IS a religious debate forum...

Where exactly did you check that? Yes it is a religous debate forum, I am debating your religion.

[

...ooh, you are pissin me off. You know what you do with your 'holier than though' attitude? You piss people off, and you exemplify the trait Christians have that people hate the most. Arrogance. You wanna hear how bad it sounds? Here we go:

*in a kind, soft voice*

You Christians are simply ignoring the right, true way, which is atheism. You are only ignoring the truth because you don't like the idea of no god. But soon you too will join the right path and will be correct. I am hoping that you will see the light.

See how arrogant that sounds? FUCK YOU DS. I know your kind. YOU ALL ARE FUCKING LUNATICS.

quote:Originally posted by dagnabitt:

Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

Oh the irony.

]

Irony noted. We all are on an agenda here. But there is a difference between dogma and philosophy.

Also, my "agenda" is to see you in heaven...

What is YOUR agenda, and is it anywhere near as significant ?

I don't say that to imply that I need an ego boost...

Yes, I get angry. Yes, I am guilty of having way too much pride...

But so do all of you.

The only difference between us is that I am a Christian, and you are not.

Somehow, that means I am not allowed to have feelings.

I think I am entitled to be angry when people blaspheme God. I have the right to get pissy when people misrepresent the God of the universe.

You are all behaving like spoiled, rotten spiritual brats.

It is my belief, and it is my right.

If you don't want to hear it, dont.

Christianity is hardly dying out.

With the insane technology of nowadays, television the internet etc. there is an incredible ammount of access to information of any kind for just about anyone. With such rise of information, I hardly see how this could negatively effect the growth of any movement. Too, with missionaries of many different sects of christianity living and traveling around the world, I can easily infer christianities growth in less than technology adept parts of the world.

Further, I believe there is a pretty massive backlash against Christianity in our own country, more so I think than any other time. Even talking with my own friends, I feel that they are incredibly disenfranchised with almost any idea of god, particularly that of Christianity. Though too, I think that some of it has to do with being an angsty, ignorant, liberal young person.

For these young people, I think religion is one thing to lash out against in the backdrop of the whole system. That goes with our own youth and that overseas. In the eyes of our own people, I think they see a president who's christian see perhaps parents who are christian, or religous in some way, and don't agree with the world today, so they give up on this whole system without dissecting anything. Those overseas, I imagine, see us as a evangelical christian nation out of control, trying to impose ourselves on other cultures and people. In this case, the religion and conflict with the government are taken one in the same, and instead of dissecting everything, again it's all together, and the idea is fuck them and everything they believe in.

The point is, juuuuust about everyone hear speaks through their own ignorance and skewed biases. I think this whole anti-chritianity thing is just as hipocritical as how those very same altheists see it.

It's all pretty rediculous,and until we get some more mature adults on here, other than the very few we have now, you're going to get nowhere past angsty bitching.

quote:Originally posted by chaski86:

...ooh, you are pissin me off. You know what you do with your 'holier than though' attitude? You piss people off, and you exemplify the trait Christians have that people hate the most. Arrogance. You wanna hear how bad it sounds? Here we go:

*in a kind, soft voice*

You Christians are simply ignoring the right, true way, which is atheism. You are only ignoring the truth because you don't like the idea of no god. But soon you too will join the right path and will be correct. I am hoping that you will see the light.

See how arrogant that sounds? FUCK YOU DS. I know your kind. YOU ALL ARE FUCKING LUNATICS.

*laughs*

Yeah, except I have a purpose that is not only honorable, but worthy of my complete and utter attention. (not by my own definition, of course)

Do you think that Paul pussyfooted around, even in the face of death ? No ! He said, "God lives !" and he was stoned for it. He was whipped within an inch of his life more than once ! He was hated, and hunted...what I do here on Totse is nothing. I would venture to say that it is even cowardly.

I should be doing more, and I will. Soon.

Pissing you off is what I am here to do. It makes you think. It makes you wake up. Stop drowning in your apathy !

Arrogance runs rampant here on Totse, yet you only see fit to point MINE out. You don't find that to be in the slightest bit hypocritical ?

Why are you here, honestly ? To try and tell everyone that there is NO POINT to this extremely complex universe we live in ?

Why ? What's the purpose ? Why would you even want to have a conversation that useless ? And if you believe that, why don't you save yourself the suffering and just kill yourself ? I have news for you: Life will kick you in the teeth time and time again. It would be sad to endure such hardship without having a purpose behind it. You know why you would never kill yourself though ?

Because deep down, you're afraid. Perhaps you don't really know why, but you are. And you'll figure it out.

Since you know so much about me, what other religions have I been involved in ?

How many children do I have, and do they all live with me ?

When did I turn my life over to Christ, and why ?

You won't be able to answer these questions. You don't know me at all...so, again I say to you that your opinion of me is worthless.

The difference between telling people about Atheism and God is that people HAVE EXPERIENCED GOD.

What is experienced from Atheism ? Absolute nothingness ? And you consider yourself objective enough to decide with any kind of certainty whether or not there is a God, after saying something like that ?

Your lack of experiencing Him does not make Him non-existent.

It makes you deaf, and blind.

You should be embarassed, rather than pissed off, that you can't "see" Him yet, in all your infinite wisdom and self-sufficiency.

quote:Where exactly did you check that? Yes it is a religous debate forum, I am debating your religion.

That is an inaccurate statement.

Do you know why ?

My FAITH has nothing to do with DOGMA.

If it did, it would become a RELIGION.

You can't argue with me about my FAITH, because you couldn't even begin to define it.

And no, philosophy has nothing to do with religion.

Religions can be formed from fundamental philosophies, but they are not synonymous.

Philosophy is philosophy.

And I don't find myself to be terribly philosophical by nature, so...

Why don't you actually debate me about Christianity ?

You seem intent solely on the attack of me as a person. If it is God you came to debate, then let's do it.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

So, I play the martyr often, eh ?

Apparently I am capable of being too prideful, and completely prideLESS at the exact same time !

Wonders never cease.

Whoah whoah, calm down Digi. I wasn't refering to you at all. I know you are not like this. However, you seem to be the exception among Christians (that I know and have come across)

Anyway, first off, who said anythign about martydom? I said "victim". Feelings of victimization and martyrdom are two different things.

Just about every Christian I know is almost constantly complaining about how this country is falling apart because there's no organized prayer in school, there's too many evil atheists, the secularists are out to get rid of God, etc., etc. This feeling is no more evident than when you see it preached in Church (yes, I've gone to church recently). But then again, I live in the south, and most Christian denominations around here are of the more fundamentalist Baptist, Methodist, etc type. It may be different where you live, and I know you are not like this Digi.

Why I am not DOGMATIC: I don't uphold the beliefs and values of any CHURCH/religion.

I uphold and revere the commandments given by God.

I believe that He exists out of my own personal spiritual experience, not because some priest told me to.

Nothing about my faith is dogmatic.

*shakes head*

quote:Anyway, first off, who said anythign about martydom? I said "victim". Feelings of victimization and martyrdom are two different things.

Just about every Christian I know is almost constantly complaining about how this country is falling apart because there's no organized prayer in school, there's too many evil atheists, the secularists are out to get rid of God, etc., etc. This feeling is no more evident than when you see it preached in Church (yes, I've gone to church recently). But then again, I live in the south, and most Christian denominations around here are of the more fundamentalist Baptist, Methodist, etc type. It may be different where you live, and I know you are not like this Digi.

I think the only difference between martyrdom and victimization is perspective.

But that'll end up being a tangent.

I don't feel I misinterpretted what you originally said.

Now that you have clarified, however, I have a better understanding of what you were truly saying.

I totally agree with you that there is an over-abundance of whining going on in this country, but I don't think that it ought to be pinned on any one group, race, or religion.

African Americans whine because they want their retribution for slavery that they have not experienced in their own lifetime.

Native Americans want retribution for the land that was taken from their ancestors. I think that if they want it back, they should take it. Though they would whine that they were no longer getting their welfare checks from the American government, if that were to happen. (no, I am not being a bigot. I happen to live very close to an Indian reservation, and the racial issues here are ridiculous.)

Small business owners whine at their lack of success because of big business owners.

Women whine about not being able to have the right to an abortion, while they spread their legs for yet another go 'round that will produce the same result.

The obese whine as they waddle into the lobby of their local McDonald's that they are being duped by the fast food industry, resulting in their life-threatening condition.

Smokers are whining about their lung cancer, while they puff away.

It never ends, the amount of whining the American public will spew forth.

And I agree, that a majority of Christians are guilty of the same thing. Is it any wonder, though, seeing the lack of personal responsibility that runs rampant in our country today ?

I agree that our country is falling apart because of a lack of God in it. Rome fell for the same reason. And we too shall fall.

I don't whine about it when I see that the Commandments have been wrenched from our hands.

I get angry, and I communicate that.

The degredation of this country is due in large part to the lack of faith in our Creator. I will say nothing different.

But I don't think it is whining to have a conviction about something, as long as you are actively doing something about it.

Thanks for clarifying. I appreciate it.

You are by far one of the most detestable people I have ever come into contact with. I know you in the sense that I know your kind. No, I don’t know how you like your eggs or what your kids’ names are. You know what I meant.

Start talking to me about Paul and I’ll start talking to you about Cinderella. Lets leave our fairytales out of this. You think pissing people off leads them to God? Think again.

Your comments about nothingness and pointlessness just show more clearly how elementary your thinking is. You think along the lines of a third grader. Study some philosophy, some intelligent minds.

Christianity is the right religion for you. You can easily grasp the simple concepts – hell, you even have a storybook to help you along, complete with short stories with little words. You even have a church to keep you on track with all the fallacies.

You think I’m afraid? I ain’t afraid of shit – that’s the beauty of how I think. You said it yourself. I have nothing to be afraid of.

You’ve just shown you are a mindless follower of the church, of corruption, lies, rape, and murder. Ahh, the church – God’s home, your sanctuary. A place founded on all that you believe to be wrong and evil. Yet you follow God. You follow his contradictions, inconsistencies, and, above all, you follow the rest of the world. You follow people – you are a sheep that cannot stray from the group, because it’s dangerous and you‘re afraid. You believe simply for comfort, nothing more. Christianity is simply the belief of ‘pie in the sky’. And you don’t wanna miss out on your piece.

quote:Originally posted by chaski86:

You are by far one of the most detestable people I have ever come into contact with. I know you in the sense that I know your kind. No, I don’t know how you like your eggs or what your kids’ names are. You know what I meant.

Start talking to me about Paul and I’ll start talking to you about Cinderella. Lets leave our fairytales out of this. You think pissing people off leads them to God? Think again.

Your comments about nothingness and pointlessness just show more clearly how elementary your thinking is. You think along the lines of a third grader. Study some philosophy, some intelligent minds.

Christianity is the right religion for you. You can easily grasp the simple concepts – hell, you even have a storybook to help you along, complete with short stories with little words. You even have a church to keep you on track with all the fallacies.

You think I’m afraid? I ain’t afraid of shit – that’s the beauty of how I think. You said it yourself. I have nothing to be afraid of.

You’ve just shown you are a mindless follower of the church, of corruption, lies, rape, and murder. Ahh, the church – God’s home, your sanctuary. A place founded on all that you believe to be wrong and evil. Yet you follow God. You follow his contradictions, inconsistencies, and, above all, you follow the rest of the world. You follow people – you are a sheep that cannot stray from the group, because it’s dangerous and you‘re afraid. You believe simply for comfort, nothing more. Christianity is simply the belief of ‘pie in the sky’. And you don’t wanna miss out on your piece.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

ah, yes, classic atheist bullshit.

*LMAO* !!!

So, now you think I am Catholic ?

If not, you cannot, with any sort of "education", which you find to be so near and dear to you, regard me as being a part of "the Church".

The Church is the Catholic Church. I have no such affiliation with them...

And yes, I did know what you meant, and (as seems to be on par for you) you have entirely missed the point of those questions.

They were presented to show you that you don't know anything about my faith, and why I have it, and therefore cannot say whether or not it is unfounded, unwarranted, or come to without empirical evidence.

You just don't know.

Your GUILT "bleeds into your every post". It's origination is not my fault, but you have come to the conclusion that it will make you feel better if you take it out on me, anyway.

So, you can keep throwing sand at me, but I will just keep closing my eyes.

I won't be running away anytime soon.

And let me know when you actually want to have an "intellectual debate". I'd be interested in that.

So far, you have only had a few temper tantrums, and offered nothing of any value whatsoever, in relation to a "religious debate".

quote:you are a sheep that cannot stray from the group, because it’s dangerous and you‘re afraid.

That assertion alone proves how little you know about me, Christianity, and my faith.

*laughs again*

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I totally agree with you that there is an over-abundance of whining going on in this country, but I don't think that it ought to be pinned on any one group, race, or religion.

Oh I agree, all Americans are whiny about shit nowadays. Wasn't trying to single Christianity out of spite, just because it was relevant to the conversation.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Native Americans want retribution for the land that was taken from their ancestors. I think that if they want it back, they should take it. Though they would whine that they were no longer getting their welfare checks from the American government, if that were to happen. (no, I am not being a bigot. I happen to live very close to an Indian reservation, and the racial issues here are ridiculous.)

Out of everybody who complains about stuff in America, Native Americans have the most legitimate right to bitch. And they don't really do it that much. But at least they can get some money of stupid white people in their Casinos. That and their lax drug regulations on Reservations. =)

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I agree that our country is falling apart because of a lack of God in it. Rome fell for the same reason. And we too shall fall.



I'm gonna disagree with you there. It wasn't until Christianity was the dominant religion in Rome that the Empire began to fall. Of course this wasn't the only reason Rome fell. Constant barbarian invasions, overextension, loss of the middle class, internal corruption, rampant taxation, lack of civic duty and loyalty (people began to place their loyalty in "another" power), etc etc.

But you gotta admit, when Romans were Pagans, the Empire was running fine. Degenerate orgies and all. =)

I am always interested in having an intelligent debate. You would be the last person I would approach for such an exercise.

quote:Originally posted by Garibaldi:

Eventually it'll die out. Or morph and change into other religions. It will proably last quite awhile though, as alot of people in power are Christians.



You are right, christianity has already morphed some, Mormonism, 7th Day Adventists, Jehova's Witness, etc. And as you know, even Christianity evolved from the Catholic church in theory, and even Catholocism evolved from old world Judaism....so who knows what happens next.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

So, I play the martyr often, eh ?

Apparently I am capable of being too prideful, and completely prideLESS at the exact same time !

Wonders never cease.

Nah, you kind of waffle back and forth.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:



I was saying that you should Google how many Christians are in the world, which is reported as being 33%. (about 75% of adults in America and Canada consider themselves Christian.) http://www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htm

If you don't care about the truth, then don't go touting off as if you do.

I am not denying that the number of "athiest's" is rising, no matter the age group.

That wasn't my point.

By saying that they will outnumber "us", you make it sound as if they are staging an anti-Christian coup.

People will believe what they will, and they will war with each other regardless of that.

Jesus did NO SUCH THING (in regards to condemning the corruption of Judaism). That is the most preposterous thing I have ever heard...

He condemned the pompous, contentious religious leaders for using fear and judgement to rule the people, misleading them into bondage under the law.

For someone who is about to be officially accepted into the Catholic religion, you don't seem to know a whole lot about it.

Jesus obviously wasn't against anything God ordained, which is why you are in err. God was extremely displeased with the way the temples were being ran. Jesus responded accordingly.

He opened the people's eyes, so that they could begin to have a healthy relationship with God. He helped them to see the truth, which was that God LOVED them, not that He was out to get them.

I don't understand how you can read the same Bible I do, and derive something so different.

Little variances are understandable, but that story is blatantly obvious, and you have totally missed the purpose.

I said in the first place that christianity was growing in the world and that it was loosing ground in america.....read my original post

And Jesus was obviously condeming corruption in Judaism... the pompous rulers as you put it. He wasn't condeming Judaism.

So that verse is not analgous to Catholicism.

quote:Originally posted by chaski86:

Christianity is founded on shaky ground. Most 'non-believers' agree on this, I am sure. I think that this weak foundation could potentially be the cause of this religion's downfall. Of course, the question that determines whether or not it will 'die' is: Do people look more for comfort (even though it may be false comfort) or reason?

Any psychologists care to contribute to this thread?

to answer your question, i must ask youwt "shaky ground" is Christianity founded on?

The simple anwser would be: "It isn't" but I have a feeling that someone is gonna bring science vs conscience into it all.

Digital, you claim you have no affiliation with churches. That you are not a prisoner of any dogma and your connection with christianity and God is personal. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

What I'm wondering about is that if you can see the folly of following the dogma of a church, then why you cannot turn a similar critical eye to the Bible itself. Is God offended by criticism? That would be so if He was also offended by the truth. And criticism leaves the truth unscathed. Intelligence and logic are God-given. Why not use them? They cannot harm the truth, only verify it. If some of the Bible is proven wrong, would that harm God in any way? No, just people's impression of Him. And using a God-given gift can only lead to the most correct impression. Avoiding criticism is as dogmatic as following a church. Faith need not be blind. If you use a mathematical sort of way, starting with an axiom like 1+1=2, let's say the equivalent is "God exists and Jesus is His Son" (noone can prove or disprove either), you can clear out the falsehoods and make believers of atheists. I admit it's not easy but it's the only way. And it CAN be done with pure logic because we have God's Word. Jesus is the Word made flesh, according to our axiom. If the Word proves perfect, we have a starting point for criticism. I am convinced that it is perfect...can anyone offer something better than "Love thy neighbour"? After this we need to look for anything in the Bible that contradicts Jesus and discard it. I'm sure this shocks you as blasphemy but if you would dare to be critical you would discard most of the Bible. There are also moments where Jesus contradicts Himself and those have to be addressed as well. According to our axiom these contradictions shouldn't exist, so there must be a reason for them. In this fashion you can come up with unexpected insights that do not offend God. His essence is not a book but Truth itself. Your results couldn't be doubted even by the most atheistic of scientists. Your base is the Word of Christ, and even if no God exists, there's no philosopher to offer something better.

But who can actually do this kind of research when it threatens the foundation of every christian church? Until someone is found, christianity will continue to be mankind's bane instead of its savior. It can never fall because it is supported by the Perfect Word of Christ, but it can never save because of the lies that surround It. This grand contradiction needs to be solved as soon as possible.