To begin, I myself am a weak atheist. I believe that there is almost certainly no God, but I'm not sure of it because it can't be proven or disproven. I just go by logic. Now, I also believe that everyone else is incorrect. I don't see this view as intolerant; I think it's realistic. How could I be right and everyone else be right as well? Because I think I'm right and there are so many holes in the idea of a God or a soul or any religion, I constantly have the urge to convert people into atheists. Of course I know this can't be done most of the time, but my question to you all is should it be done?

Personally, I don't think it should. How much does the truth really matter when it comes to other people's happiness? There are plenty of people in this world who would feel empty and would likely lose all sense of morality if they didn't have a god. They would be ruined. They would have to actually think for themselves and deal with the constant struggle people have when no one is telling them what to do. They would have philosophical questions that had never occurred to them. They would lose the sense of community they get from church and the sense of constant love they get from "God." Why would you want to do this to someone? Is the truth more important than happiness? Kant would say yes, I suppose, as would many philososphers. But what do you think?

quote:Originally posted by GlitterPunk112358:

Is the truth more important than happiness? Kant would say yes, I suppose, as would many philososphers. But what do you think?

i believe it is. happiness is fleeting, but it returns. once truth is lost, there is no hope.

If God is omnipotent, can He create a boulder that He cannot lift?

The truth is more important.

Living in a fantasy world is dangerous.

That's why some deranged people

are locked up in wards.

Converting people to atheism isn't a good idea. Because they will be the fad-atheists. With weak ideals. You have to let people discover it on thier own.

Does it even matter if God is real?

Whats your beef with a group of people that meets once a week, foisters a comunity spirit and whos main tennant is be nice too each other?

Not that Im a catholic, personaly Im more about the personal catharic state of true gnosis... but thats somewhat irrelevant.

Anyway I've never understood why you feel the need too tear everything down, for instance I think the concept of Democracy in a first past the post system is completly unfair, I dont feel the need too shout down anyone who still believes in it (Unless its fun!)

[This message has been edited by MaxSteiner (edited 03-07-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by MaxSteiner:

Does it even matter if God is real?

Whats your beef with a group of people that meets once a week, foisters a comunity spirit and whos main tennant is be nice too each other?

Not that Im a catholic, personaly Im more about the personal catharic state of true gnosis... but thats somewhat irrelevant.

Anyway I've never understood why you feel the need too tear everything down, for instance I think the concept of Democracy in a first past the post system is completly unfair, I dont feel the need too shout down anyone who still believes in it (Unless its fun!)



I have to agree here, even though I am an atheist. There is no point in critisizing Christians just because they believe something you don't. You have to understand that we all believe something that noone else understands OR likes. So keep your fucking mall goth fad atheism to yourself, and insult people who deserve it, like republicans.

Damn jiggy bruddah man!

Heh, thanks. I need to wash my mohawk, it is sticking to my chin. Maybe I need to start standing it up again. Oh yeah, on topic, how many of you atheist actually attend church? I am pretty sure that you aren't doing anything more important on a sunday, so go to a service or two and learn something about the religion you hate so much.

Got too admit its pretty boring though, but some of the hymns are pretty cool...

"God spirit is in my heart,

He has called me and set me appart,

This is what I have to do,

What I have to do,

He sent me too give the good news for the poor,

Tell prisoners that they are prisoners no more,

Tell Blind people that they can see,

And set the downtrodden free!"

Man... the extra memory provided by not smoking weed is a total waste...

Haha I agree. The problem with modern atheist is that they are drug in by friends saying that "GOD IS GAY LOLZ!!!!1" or "FUCK JEZUS HAHAHTHAHRHARHLKASFJ!" because they want to piss people off. If they actually attended a service or two, they would see how much these people care about their belief and might take them a little more seriously, and not be such low standard assholes all the time.

quote:Originally posted by GlitterPunk112358:

To begin, I myself am a weak atheist. I believe that there is almost certainly no God, but I'm not sure of it because it can't be proven or disproven. I just go by logic. Now, I also believe that everyone else is incorrect. I don't see this view as intolerant; I think it's realistic. How could I be right and everyone else be right as well? Because I think I'm right and there are so many holes in the idea of a God or a soul or any religion, I constantly have the urge to convert people into atheists. Of course I know this can't be done most of the time, but my question to you all is should it be done?

Personally, I don't think it should. How much does the truth really matter when it comes to other people's happiness? There are plenty of people in this world who would feel empty and would likely lose all sense of morality if they didn't have a god. They would be ruined. They would have to actually think for themselves and deal with the constant struggle people have when no one is telling them what to do. They would have philosophical questions that had never occurred to them. They would lose the sense of community they get from church and the sense of constant love they get from "God." Why would you want to do this to someone? Is the truth more important than happiness? Kant would say yes, I suppose, as would many philososphers. But what do you think?

Your first paragraph describes me perfectly. As for your second paragraph, about them losing all their morals; before being converted, they would adhere to their Christian morals, correct? These are the morals that say gays and abortions are evil, correct? Personally, I think it is better to live in the real world and not need a crutch to support your emotions.

I've tried to convert at least a half-dozen Christians to Athiesm. You can throw everty piece of logic, reason, science, and philosophy you've got at them. They'll dodge the issue or use circular-logic to say "well... the bible says..."

I dont think I'm going to try anymore. I may think it's far better to be an athiest, but they're obviously fine with how they are. It blows my mind how someone can honestly believe that bullshit, though.

But you have got too consider that everything you think about them, they think about you!

Just going up too someone and saying, you and everything you belive in is a lie, why not replace your faith with... NOTHING.

You cant convert someone too nothing can you? hence why Atheism doesn't tend tooo work that well as an incentive too switch belief system.

You need too make up a more interesting religion too convert people, like um... something involving clowns perhaps...

Yeah, but athiesm involves facts and rationality to support itself. You dont convert people by saying "everything you believe is wrong." You SHOW them how it's wrong.

^^^ Fine convert to realism.. same shit different smell. As to why atheists attack christians its because christians keep saying im going to hell.... Well i take your concept of reality throw it out and replace it with my own.

Now go listen to lazyboy... funny fuckar.

quote:Originally posted by unchewed_meat:

Yeah, but athiesm involves facts and rationality to support itself. You dont convert people by saying "everything you believe is wrong." You SHOW them how it's wrong.

But this doesn't really work, because the Christians can show you how you are wrong as well.

Yeah, end of the day, you either believe the universe was created in a big bang, or you belive god is that big bang, dont make a single bit of difference what you believe at the end of the day does it?

And the tests tend too show that religious people live longer than athiests,

Which is nice http://www.mercola.com/2000/jun/10/religion.htm

^^^ (notice how ^ is 6 lol)

Thats because most christians are stubborn and stubborn people dont die easily.

Heh, could be true, but either way they live longer... I wonder if it works if you only pretend too be religious :|... Ah sod it, Muslims have a way better after life than catholics, I'll just convert before dying.

They may live longer, but....wait there isn't a downside.

If your go to the site it says that they live longer because there carmer and shit like that. I wonder how long the average budist lives for?

Well Japan has the highest population of people over 100, and their predominantly Budhist and shinto, I think they were included in the test too...

Actaully wait a minuite, what if one of the faiths was the one true one, and the poeple from that group were just driving up the figures for the whole lot...

/-/mmmm... I bet its the clown faith... ah shit I just made that up

You guys should really look into Sun Worship. The sun gives you everything you need, and you know it's there.

No i dont the atmosphere on the earth is just a large T.v. And we are currently being hijacked by Planet hijackers to throw into there dying sun. God Invader Zim rules.

But I just thought...the sun isn't a star, it's a huge heat lamp used by some god to make his pot plants grow bigger. Bingo.

Those two faiths sound pretty cool, however it seems too me that you guys are missunderstanding Zims true intended use of the mighty sun lamp, and so I have been forced too secede from your faith, and form a much groovier offshoot.

In all honesty, if it were legal, I would be a ritualistic cannibal. That just demands respect. Or I'll fucking eat you.

Blasphome all shall worship zim or go to heaven now die.

(Invader zim is a funny arse cartoon. http://www.tvtome.com/InvaderZIM/

probly the funniest cartoon ive ever seen.)

Wow, its cool too post without having too insult a Moderator or like that scum sucking enflamed elephant testical of a man Macabee, or that piece of dag Chickenpoop...

Damn I just did it again!

Did you guys see pidermans greatest Bible stories? http://portlandmercury.com/2002-05-02/feature4.html

Now that shit is the good book!

The first real post I have ever been in without some fuckin trolls. Well that's good.

But in all honesty.....where have all the cookies gone?

quote:Originally posted by Outlaw Skumfuck:

In all honesty, if it were legal, I would be a ritualistic cannibal. That just demands respect. Or I'll fucking eat you.

That's fuckin' great! It's hard not to be a little afraid of someone who sees you as food.

quote:Originally posted by Tesseract:

That's fuckin' great! It's hard not to be a little afraid of someone who sees you as food.

My point exactley.

quote:Originally posted by unchewed_meat:

Yeah, but athiesm involves facts and rationality to support itself. You dont convert people by saying "everything you believe is wrong." You SHOW them how it's wrong.

Show me. Disprove god, not christianity or religion, but god.

The first post was talking about comfort and shit through religion, so I was thinking more anti-religion than anti-god when I said that. The Christian god is illogical, but you win the word game because I did say "athiesm".

[This message has been edited by unchewed_meat (edited 03-08-2005).]

That's the thing, when most atheists think about god they think about the christian god instead of all the possible incarnations of god. People say they want to convert christians, but why not muslims, hindus, buddhists, jews,etc...?

Because in America, Christians are the majority. They've got obvious (bad) influences in the government, especially with this anti-gay marrage shit going on.

I honestly dont think I've ever known a Muslim, Jew, or Hindu. I'm sure I've met some, but I've never actually hung out with one, and if I did they've never told me. My grandparents might be Buddhist, but we dont even speak the same language.

[This message has been edited by unchewed_meat (edited 03-08-2005).]

So if you encountered a biddhist would you try to convince them that god doesn't exist? What about a hindu or a jew? Surely you would share your wealth of knowledge with people of all religions to tell them the good word that god doesn't exist and religon is a waste of their time. Right?

quote:Originally posted by unchewed_meat:

Yeah, but athiesm involves facts and rationality to support itself. You dont convert people by saying "everything you believe is wrong." You SHOW them how it's wrong.

How the hell does atheism deal with facts and rationality? Atheism/theism - they are both pillars of FAITH. All these people that say they just live by logic, science, search for truth - that's fine. But realize that it cannot prove everything and some things are just faith.

agnosticism fo life y0!

Atheism...a pillar of faith? What are you? Retarded? Atheism is a pillar of thought...there is no belief, no disbelief, no knowledge...simply thoughts that flow along as more is seen.

I'm an atheist because I don't have faith in any entity above humans. While I may use assumptions in my deductions of the world around me, I don't put faith in the conclusions, nor in my knowledge, nor in those around me. Faith is something I find useless, and a block in my life. There are those things which I think exist, but those are thoughts, not beliefs...thoughts change constantly, faith doesn't have quite as much flexibility.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

So if you encountered a biddhist would you try to convince them that god doesn't exist? What about a hindu or a jew? Surely you would share your wealth of knowledge with people of all religions to tell them the good word that god doesn't exist and religon is a waste of their time. Right?

Maybe, I dont know if I would be asshole enough to preach my shit at them unless they started preaching at me. I've never seen a buddhist bothering anybody. In Korea, they just stood around in orange jumpsuits minding their own business.

Having no creator of the universe, this is not a leap of faith? What is more sensible - believing a superior entity created all of this or that that world came into existence ex nihilo? Either way of thinking is rooted in faith, not logic or facts.

quote:Originally posted by KikoSanchez:

Having no creator of the universe, this is not a leap of faith? What is more sensible - believing a superior entity created all of this or that that world came into existence ex nihilo? Either way of thinking is rooted in faith, not logic or facts.

Not facts, but logic. Some people's sense of logic leads them to think that a dude came from nowhere and created the universe. Some people think the universe came from nowhere. But the dude theory means there has to be a reason and you have to think about what the dude does now. You have to wonder why he made all these rules. Why all the creepy math? I like the nowhere theory. Makes more sense. Things are as they are because we are. Simple. Elegant

Well, it may make more sense to you. All I am trying to convey is that there is still a lot of faith involved. Nobody really knows either way. To a christian, adam and eve, noah's ark(haha) etc. is fact, just like most atheists would take the big bang(singularity, first cause from nowhere...) and evolution(which has taken many revisions and some of its theories just completely debunked) as fact as well. I say everyone just keep your worldview to yourself, no matter which side you're on.

Evolution is the basis of modern biology and the strongest current theory that we have. Organized religion is a tool used to warp minds towards submission.

Kiko, evolution has undergone many revisions because that's what a theory does...any time new evidence is found, the theory must change or be thrown out. So far, evolution is the strongest and most evidenced theory we have to explain the variation of species...sure, it could be debunked at some point, but for now, it works, and I expect it will continue to work for quite some time. The great thing about science is that it is meant to change as our observations become more developed...as opposed to religion, which is rather hard-set in the state it has been for nearly 1900 years.

quote:Originally posted by KikoSanchez:

I say everyone just keep your worldview to yourself, no matter which side you're on.

What the fuck? That's not what you're doing. That's not what I'm doing... what are you trying to say? That we should never discuss these things for fear of offending someone?

No, I didn't mean like online or in forums, or when people are formally debating in-person. I mean, I don't think anyone should go around with the intention of converting people in the streets to their religion. The same way non-christians hate to be haggled by christian crusaders, the same goes for atheists or whoever trying to convert others.

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

Kiko, evolution has undergone many revisions because that's what a theory does...any time new evidence is found, the theory must change or be thrown out. So far, evolution is the strongest and most evidenced theory we have to explain the variation of species...sure, it could be debunked at some point, but for now, it works, and I expect it will continue to work for quite some time. The great thing about science is that it is meant to change as our observations become more developed...as opposed to religion, which is rather hard-set in the state it has been for nearly 1900 years.

Well, religions and the way people interpret religious texts do develop or change occasionally. The problem with it though is this: if the religion or texts of the religion are supposedly from an absolute and perfect being, then either nothing should be changed or it should be scrapped altogether. All the changes are just dogmatic, "on earth as it is in heaven", type BS. This is why I find it so silly when Muslims speak of the Koran as being the final and perfect revelation from god. They accept that the christian bible and torah are god's word, but they were skewed by man over ages. But this would mean that the bible/torah would had to have been just as the torah is today, teaching the same things. Otherwise, we have to accept that the absolute and perfect god has just changed his outlook on things. By definition, god cannot do this(it is perfect and unchanging), or maybe that is just a man-made dogmatic belief that we all spill out our mouths, who knows? Anyone talked to god lately? Is it schizophrenic?

quote:Originally posted by GlitterPunk112358:

To begin, I myself am a weak atheist. I believe that there is almost certainly no God, but I'm not sure of it because it can't be proven or disproven. I just go by logic. Now, I also believe that everyone else is incorrect. I don't see this view as intolerant; I think it's realistic. How could I be right and everyone else be right as well? Because I think I'm right and there are so many holes in the idea of a God or a soul or any religion, I constantly have the urge to convert people into atheists. Of course I know this can't be done most of the time, but my question to you all is should it be done?

Personally, I don't think it should. ...But what do you think?

I think NO IT SHOULD NOT BE DONE. Religion definently ahs it purposes. I thikn it keeps millions of people in check, at least to some degree. It is that fear of their God which prevents them from doing certain things (i.e. killing you, or the like). Not only this, btu some people find themselves in situations where they have no where to turn to for strength or guidance, and many have found it in the Bible. So it has been helpful for them. Otherwise, those people might have committed suicide or something.

I am an atheist, but I do not believe religion should be totally destroyed. UNLESS everyone can be an atheist like me, to where they aren't killing people and what not, and don't depend on God for anything. Because then you can live with yourself. Those who need a God for whatever reason, wouldn't be able to handle it.