I'm sure some of you have heard the story of the fallen angels. Lucifer, an angel that ranked second only to God himself, became consumed with pride. He rebelled against God, taking one third of the angels with him. He and the rogue angels lost the battle against God and were confined in hell for all eternity. But what does this tell us about angels? It tells us that they have "free will," if such a thing can be said to exist. So what of the other angels, then? Why haven't they all sinned and damned to hell by now if they have free will? Why doesn't heaven have sin in it?

Perhaps free will alone does not lead to sin. It has been said by many people that the reason humans sin is because they have free will, and that reason alone. But that does not explain the situation in heaven, does it? After all, would God strip humans of their free will upon reaching heaven?

The real Biblical answer to why people sin is because of Satan's temptation. This is illustrated many times throughout the Bible, such as in the story of the Garden. It makes one wonder what the definition of God being all-powerful is. Perhaps instead of being absolutely powerful to do anything ever conceivable, God is MOST-powerful. It really makes a lot more sense when you take into account the idea of the battle between good and evil, and the end time when God defeats Satan for good. I mean, if He was all-powerful in the sense that most people think of Him, there would be no need for angels battling demons in the apocalypse, He'd just blink His eye and it would be over if that was the case. Although most Christians today wouldn't like the thought of an even slightly limited God, it is the idea that makes the most sense, at least to me.

Where does this story about Lucifer being kicked out of Heaven come from? The "Christians" here say it is not from the Bible but they all read from the shortest Bible availible that is not Jewish.

It comes from texts that most sects of Christianity won't Canonize.

Which books? And what sects have cannonized it. I have heard alot of versions of this story and would like to hear an official one if such a thing exists.

I think that at least part of this story comes from the book of Revelation, which is indeed controversial when it comes to its canonicity. I'm not sure about what other books it comes from, though. I know that the book of Enoch tells a story of the fall of angels, but it's different from the one that I'm using. The book of Enoch is more of a continuation of Genesis 6 where the "sons of the gods" or angels mate with human females and breed giant offspring (Nephilim).

When I look back at my alternative perspective (which is a rather old one, in fact) I'm wondering where Lucifer's temptation comes from... perhaps it isn't necessarily Satan that is always tempting people, it can be a natural temptation as well. And God expected Lucifer to resist this temptation when he gave him such high status. Also, the fact that Satan *tried* to rebel against God tells us that either Satan was completely retarded, or more likely, God's power does have its limits. So that goes for my idea, as well :^)

Just trying to get the Christians out there to think a little.

The fact that God has not taken a person free will even when it would have saved countless lives sugests that he is limited in power. But Christians have pre-made answers to problems like that so you are not going to make them think very hard.

quote:Originally posted by MasterPython:

The fact that God has not taken a person free will even when it would have saved countless lives sugests that he is limited in power. But Christians have pre-made answers to problems like that so you are not going to make them think very hard.

It is discouraging that your opinion of Christians is so low that you stereotype all of us as never putting any thought or reasoning behind what we think or believe.

I try to be very logical and reasonable in my thought processes, as much as humanly possible.

Then prove him wrong. Post an answer to the problem he cited; an answer that isn't "pre-made" as he claims.

"It" (God)is an intangible (unexplainable, impossible to identify) thing.

Cannot be proved or disproved. Until you have asked for it & seen it work in your life, you will never understand and have only questions and doubts.(blah, blah spin and more spin)

I only wonder why folks would not give prayer a chance? Iffen it dont work.....go someplace else. For those who have never asked to even have the opportunity to receive....... keep playing science for lack of better things to do..

Baby

quote:The real Biblical answer to why people sin is because of Satan's temptation. This is illustrated many times throughout the Bible, such as in the story of the Garden.

There are examples of times when people were tempted by Satan and did NOT sin, i.e. Job (Job 1:22) and Jesus (Matt. 4:1-11).

quote:It makes one wonder what the definition of God being all-powerful is. Perhaps instead of being absolutely powerful to do anything ever conceivable, God is MOST-powerful. It really makes a lot more sense when you take into account the idea of the battle between good and evil, and the end time when God defeats Satan for good.

If God is limited in anyway, either in power or justice or perfection or love or ..., then the salvation that is offered to us through Jesus Christ is likewise limited.

If our salvation was truly paid 'once for all' (Romans 6:10,Hebrews 9:12,Jude 1:3), then God must be infinite and all-powerful.

quote:I mean, if He was all-powerful in the sense that most people think of Him, there would be no need for angels battling demons in the apocalypse, He'd just blink His eye and it would be over if that was the case.

Revelation 12:7-9

"And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

This is at a particular time during the seven years of the Tribulation period. God gives many tasks to angels, including taking messages to people and singing as well as fighting at times.

Why does the decision to delegate actions and responsibilities to angels diminish the power of God?

quote:Although most Christians today wouldn't like the thought of an even slightly limited God, it is the idea that makes the most sense, at least to me.

It is not what we perceive God to be that matters most, but what He has presented Himself to be in His Word.

quote:"The real Biblical answer to why people sin is because of Satan's temptation. This is illustrated many times throughout the Bible, such as in the story of the Garden."

There are examples of times when people were tempted by Satan and did NOT sin, i.e. Job (Job 1:22) and Jesus (Matt. 4:1-11).

LOL, of course temptation doesn't always cause people to sin. It's because they RESIST TEMPTATION. wow... I know this is a very advanced concept for you, but try your best to understand http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

j/k

quote:"It makes one wonder what the definition of God being all-powerful is. Perhaps instead of being absolutely powerful to do anything ever conceivable, God is MOST-powerful. It really makes a lot more sense when you take into account the idea of the battle between good and evil, and the end time when God defeats Satan for good."

If God is limited in anyway, either in power or justice or perfection or love or ..., then the salvation that is offered to us through Jesus Christ is likewise limited.

What did God use to save people, hmm? It wasn't his own power. Nope. It was the sacrifice of a sinless man/god/whatever. Vicarious atonement. It was because Jesus was sinless that his sacrifice affected everyone else, instead of just one or a few.

You could also look at it another way -- not everyone goes to heaven, so it would seem that being saved requires personal dedication from the individual as well. Is it really infinite salvation?

Yet another way to think of it -- the sins people do aren't infinite, and neither is the number of people who commit them, so it wouldn't require infinite power if God did decide to do it another way.

I don't think the method of salvation is well enough defined to say that God couldn't do it without infinite power.

quote:"I mean, if He was all-powerful in the sense that most people think of Him, there would be no need for angels battling demons in the apocalypse, He'd just blink His eye and it would be over if that was the case."

Why does the decision to delegate actions and responsibilities to angels diminish the power of God?

It doesn't. It's acceptable for God to use angels to do his bidding whether he's infinitely powerful or not. It just makes more sense (for me, at least) in the situation that He is most-powerful. He actually has a reason to use them, in that case.