religious people=OWNED

Prove he doesnt exist, oh wait you cant,atheists=pwned.

If you say religion sucks, then I agree with you, but there is no proof god doesnt or does exist, so its better to be undecided on that, although I highly doubt if there is a god he is what any earthly religions portray him as.

i always come from the logical side which sais why do i have to prove that god doesn't exist, i say to the religious prove that it does exist.



i could say that i have a *anything* which no man can see or detect, prove that i don't have this *anything*.

see that is the fundamental flaw in religious thinking, why should i be asked to prove that he doesn't exist when there never was any evidence that he ever existed, from the other side i can say there is plenty of evidence to suggest that there isn't a "supreme being"

Evidence to you may be perceived differently than by other people.

God exists because people believe in all it's various forms.

I just proved you wrong.

This is the way I see "the church" and "God"

God is made up. There may have been a guy named God or whatever that was a leader and what not. But how could one man possible fogive people while he is dead? Remember Santa?

Back in the dark ages, the church ruled all. They told people what to think, and what to do. They were scared that if the people questioned the church, they would start their own religions. (this tiny paragraph was just to show my knowledge about the dark ages...)

I think that people feel guilty about the bad things they do. Break something of someones, steal, kill a man and so fourth. Since they feel so guilty, they need someway to feel better about what they did, thus, God was created. By convincing everyone that there was a God, and that he could for give you if you go to church, as humans, we are interested.

As all you church going people know, as soon as the collection plate comes around, you feel you must put money in that tiny tin dish. By putting the money in it, you feel better about yourself. So basically, you pay your troubles away.

I know I'm going to be yelled at and maybe possible raped, but still, that is my opinion. As I leave you, I leave you with the immortal words of the song My God by Pennywise...

"You wanna go to heaven, you see it isn't free, give your money up to me

My god is not the one that you wanna see, your god is a mirage,

a conspiracy, you pray for forgiveness cause your sinnin',

scared to death so your money you'll be givin', yeah."

Oh yeah, one more thing. The whole heaven and hell thing... We all hope there is a place where we find solace after death, who wouldn't? But I really think they made that up too. If you are good you go to heaven and if you are bad and sin and what not you go to hell. If you have to pay the church to make your sins go away, it makes sence to scare the public into thinking that if they are sinners and don't go to church that they will be punished.

"Did God create man, or did man create God?"

Leave him alone, you can't possibly argue with him when he can't even deliver his statement right.

Leave me alone? I'm not sure what you are talking about, and if you are, how don't I make a point?

Warning: Uber-rant incoming. Scroll to bottom for short version.

---------

Atheism is logical.

Why?

Because lack of evidence is not evidence in itself, but is reason to believe that the inevidenced subject is false.

There is as much proof as for a god as for undetectable purple cows which fly behind clouds.

Now, by the false logic people use for believeing in a god, we could also believe in these cows.

Prove the cows don't exist, prove that god doesn't exist. Otherwise, by the logic of theists, the cows also exist. And by the logic of the agnostics, the cows might exist.





Anyway, for those who are religious, you cannot debate faith, as, by definition, it is not debatable.

-------------------------------------



i.e. If you believe in God because of the lack of evidence AGAINST God, then the undetectable purple cows which fly behind clouds also exist by the theist 'logic'.

quote:Originally posted by Me Ves y Sufres:

i always come from the logical side which sais why do i have to prove that god doesn't exist, i say to the religious prove that it does exist.



i could say that i have a *anything* which no man can see or detect, prove that i don't have this *anything*.

see that is the fundamental flaw in religious thinking, why should i be asked to prove that he doesn't exist when there never was any evidence that he ever existed, from the other side i can say there is plenty of evidence to suggest that there isn't a "supreme being"



So show this evidence that there isnt a supreme being.

It seems to me that the "fundamental flaw" in your thinking is that you tried to shift the burden of proof on believers but then you state that you have evidence against. Therefore, it seems as though you lose your arguement whether you produce or not.

quote:Because lack of evidence is not evidence in itself, but is reason to believe that the inevidenced subject is false.

I've said the same, but...

the "evidence" of the existance of god is that generations and generations ago, passed down, some of your ancestors saw a dude do some crazy things.

Now that's pretty shaky evidence, but it sure takes a while to get. =)

So religious people could accept god as true based on the trust in their elders, who trust their elders, etc. to a dude who walked on water.

I say God is the idea of a few men who couldnt get a lay and got upset about it. Why they didnt fuck enough I can only assume, but I suspect that they were raped and repeatedly abused by their various fathers (meaning: guys that raped their mum)

This has guite an impact on a persons life! Or maybe they were hung up by their testicles and had they just got ripped off at some stage in their life. Who knows? all I know is that God is the perfect excuse to fuck younger boys.

It depends on your definition of god .

If it's something like Tao , it makes perfect sense , existence itself is proof enough then . But some old guy sitting on a cloud watching over us all ? yeah , and the earth is flat as a pancake .

Religion is moronic. You actually believe that one day there was nothing, and the next there was everything as opposed to the scientific evidence that we slowly evolved from apes. How could you ignore such facts? Unbelieveable.

quote:Originally posted by BratBatten:

Religion is moronic. You actually believe that one day there was nothing, and the next there was everything as opposed to the scientific evidence that we slowly evolved from apes. How could you ignore such facts? Unbelieveable.

Why would I believe either one of those?

Religion is moronic. Darwinism isn't much better. Cockroaches are still cockroaches and people's children are much more likely to evolve into apes than the other way around. There must be some deeper life driving force in the works. Before there was any life at all, what did it evolve from? And it just evolved into one monkey which evolved into cockroaches, birds, trees, fishes, and birdogs...or whatever? Why just one? Seems a little farfetched to me. Do you know how long cockroaches have been cockroaches?

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



So show this evidence that there isnt a supreme being.

It seems to me that the "fundamental flaw" in your thinking is that you tried to shift the burden of proof on believers but then you state that you have evidence against. Therefore, it seems as though you lose your arguement whether you produce or not.



It would be stupid to shift the burden of proof from absurd claim that there are purple cows flying overhead. I claim I am faster than a speeding bullet, are you stupid? Where should the burden of proof lie?

My name is Jona. A big fish ate me and 3 days later pooped me out. And here I am. I know this is true, prove it isn't. You can't. Just stay stupid and believe it.

quote:Originally posted by MoonTalker:

Originally posted by BratBatten:

Religion is moronic. You actually believe that one day there was nothing, and the next there was everything as opposed to the scientific evidence that we slowly evolved from apes. How could you ignore such facts? Unbelieveable.

Why would I believe either one of those?

Religion is moronic. Darwinism isn't much better. Cockroaches are still cockroaches and people's children are much more likely to evolve into apes than the other way around. There must be some deeper life driving force in the works. Before there was any life at all, what did it evolve from? And it just evolved into one monkey which evolved into cockroaches, birds, trees, fishes, and birdogs...or whatever? Why just one? Seems a little farfetched to me. Do you know how long cockroaches have been cockroaches?



You misunderstand Darwinism. And Darwinism is not synonymous with evolution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwinism

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/



The idea is that, given the time scale on which the Earth had been left, a few molecules just happened to bump into each other, creating base amino acids. Eventually these bounced and joined together, and started self replicating... etc.

There have been books written about how people think it excatly happned.

quote:Though the origins of life are murky, other milestones in the evolutionary history of life are well-known. The emergence of oxygenic photosynthesis (c. 3 billion years ago) and the subsequent emergence of an oxygen-rich, non-reducing atmosphere can be traced through the formation of banded iron deposits, and later red beds of iron oxides. This was a necessary prerequisite for the development of aerobic cellular respiration, believed to have emerged c. 2 billion years ago. In the last billion years, simple multicellular plants and animals began to appear in the oceans. Soon after the emergence of the first animals the Cambrian explosion (a period of unrivaled and remarkable, but brief, organismal diversity documented in the fossils found at the Burgess Shale) saw the creation of all the major body plans (phyla) of modern animals. About 500 million years ago, plants and fungi colonized the land, and were soon followed by arthropods and other animals, leading to the development of land ecosystems with which we are familiar.

But there, just that is more solid evidence than you'll ever see for creationism.

I KNOW that God exists--I was just talking to him/her/it/them/whatever the other day.

On the other hand, I do not know if YOU exist.

Nor do I care.

quote:Originally posted by MoonTalker:

It would be stupid to shift the burden of proof from absurd claim that there are purple cows flying overhead. I claim I am faster than a speeding bullet, are you stupid? Where should the burden of proof lie?

My name is Jona. A big fish ate me and 3 days later pooped me out. And here I am. I know this is true, prove it isn't. You can't. Just stay stupid and believe it.

The difference here is that i do not claim to have evidence for or against your speed OR whether you are or are not Jonah... but he did say, " quote:i can say there is plenty of evidence to suggest that there isn't a "supreme being"",

therefore he gave himself the burden even though he already had said, " quote:i always come from the logical side which sais why do i have to prove that god doesn't exist, i say to the religious prove that it does exist.

He put himself into a "lose - lose" situation.

Answer:

Atheism is logical.

Why?

Because lack of evidence is not evidence in itself, but is reason to believe that the inevidenced subject is false.



There is as much proof as for a god as for undetectable purple cows which fly behind clouds.

Now, by the false logic people use for believeing in a god, we could also believe in these cows.

Prove the cows don't exist, prove that god doesn't exist. Otherwise, by the logic of theists, the cows also exist. And by the logic of the agnostics, the cows might exist.





Anyway, for those who are religious, you cannot debate faith, as, by definition, it is not debatable.



i.e. If you believe in God because of the lack of evidence AGAINST God, then the undetectable purple cows which fly behind clouds a

You have no proof that science will disprove the existence of God. You have faith that it will.

Science could just as easily prove God does exist. Where is your logic?

Can you guys prove that God doesn't exist? If so, then show me your evidence(not logid, but evidence. Logic is the tool of philosophy, not science).

Fine, so the purple cows are real, too.

Or are you missing the point?

You said God doesn't exist, I just want you to back up this statement. I don't care what point you're trying to make. You made a claim in the affirmative, and I would like to see you back that claim up.

On my way to work this morning, i got to hear about 2/3 of this:

http://216.247.64.85/ram/TTT/TTT050318.ram

This is just to address what you wrote \/



quote:Originally posted by The_Reckoning:

Answer:

Atheism is logical.



p.s. if the link doesnt work, i can try to steer you to it.

God exists because the idea of god exists. i mean, you made a thread about him didnt you? I believe what you are trying to say is religion is bullshit, not god is bullshit. Religion is a vessle through which the idea of god operates. God, like time, is an idea that we need to function. you cannot see time but it exists. If you realy do not believe in god in some way or have a desire to believe in him, why would you bother to even come in this forum? I think that everybody that trys to prove eachother wrong about whether or not god exists is here for the wrong purpose. being in this forum shouldn't be to prove eachother wrong, but its to learn. I believe we can all agree that the idea of god is a positive one, although religion (humans attempts at explaining the unexplainable) might be pretty dumb, but the idea of god gives us a meaning in life and often emphasize love and peace, which because of religion, politics, economical reasons and others is pretty much unattainable.

The reason for this thread is obvious. Religion is destroying the world. Normally I have no compassion for any others with the exception of those that I gain something from their prescence but when religion causes such massive problem its worth talking about. I am not one to impose my will but when things become this hectic, drastic actions must be taken therefore the existance of holy beings must be disproved. And in regards of your "God exists because people believe in him," people also believe in ghosts, conspiracy, even that the government puts mind-control chips in us but that doesn't necessarily mean its true, some of it may be but the evidence against magic, thats all god is, is so strong that its become nearly impossible to ignore it unless you are so ignorant and narrow minded that you could deny the existance of earth itself.

i don't know how the fact that i am so "ignorant and narrow minded" came up? i did not say god existed because people "believe in him." i said he exists because the idea of a god exists. learn to read. Nobody cares if you "normally have no compassion for others" or "if your one to impose your will." if you want to talk about yourself go take out an ad in the personals. but hey, thanks for trying to save the world by "disproving the existance of holy beings" tho, your a real life hero!

Religion and Science are two mutually exclusive things. it is wrong to think that science has to prove/disprove god's existence.

Science answers the how. how things work, how our bodies are made of DNA, how atoms come together to form matter and density, etc

religion answers the why. why are we here, why does atoms exist, and why do they go together the way they do? why do electrons repel? why this and why that.

Science is based on oberving the world and religion is based on explaining the world.

oh and for those people who have trouble with believing the metaphysical aspects of god just think of this acronym

god = good orderly direction,

ultimately religion just asks that you try and live your life in a good way. that's why no one religion is superior then another, they all contain certin life truths to help you live morally

I only read the first few posts, but I just had to reply to one guy.

WE DIDN'T EVOLVE FROM APES.

Why the fuck do people believe that?

WE SHARE A COMMON ANCESTOR.

Goddamn, that pisses me off.

quote:Originally posted by Me Ves y Sufres:

religious people=OWNED

"Uh, GUYS? I'm NOT a Loser I'm writing my thesis on how not to act on the intarnets"

well....what about black holes? we cant see them and have no actual proof that they exist, they are an idea. they use stuff like "x rays" and shiz to try and prove they are there

quote:Originally posted by Nephtys-Ra:

I only read the first few posts, but I just had to reply to one guy.

WE DIDN'T EVOLVE FROM APES.

Why the fuck do people believe that?

WE SHARE A COMMON ANCESTOR.

Goddamn, that pisses me off.



We didn't even share a common ancestor with apes. We do, however, share a creator.

Yeah, you can think that...but I'll stick to evidence when I come up with explanations of the world. Imagination is best left to story books, like the Book of Mormon and the Three Little Pigs. Imagination is a great and extremely useful thing, but choosing it over reality to explain reality is a piss poor choice if truth is what you seek.

"i don't know how the fact that i am so "ignorant and narrow minded" came up? i did not say god existed because people "believe in him." i said he exists because the idea of a god exists. learn to read. Nobody cares if you "normally have no compassion for others" or "if your one to impose your will." if you want to talk about yourself go take out an ad in the personals. but hey, thanks for trying to save the world by "disproving the existance of holy beings" tho, your a real life hero!"

Hahahaha, speaking of learning to read.

Firstly, I would like to point out, that Christianity is a Faith, not a religion. That being said, is it not foolish to believe in something that is clearly defind by its nature to be imposible to prove of disprove. Also, by a christians standards, if u live a good but don't accept that jesus died to save us, you go to hell, but if you are an asshole catholic that repents everyweek, you go to heaven? Fucked up!

[This message has been edited by Islanders Arnt Crazy (edited 03-20-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

Yeah, you can think that...but I'll stick to evidence when I come up with explanations of the world. Imagination is best left to story books, like the Book of Mormon and the Three Little Pigs. Imagination is a great and extremely useful thing, but choosing it over reality to explain reality is a piss poor choice if truth is what you seek.



which is why you believe the fairytale of chance to explain existance?

AH, I forgot.

Just like to point out that islanders arn't crazy.

quote:Originally posted by Islanders Arnt Crazy:

AH, I forgot.

Just like to point out that islanders arn't crazy.



what island?

Well, im refering to PEI Canada, because to the rest of the world we are either unknown or known as "potatoe pickers". But now I think about it, all islanders around the world are steriotyped agianst, funny that...

I don't know if there is a god, but when I look around, at nature, at the sky, at buildings, at people, it seems too much to have happened by chance, without a higher force. I don't beleive in religions, but I feel there has to be a higher power for things to come out as beautifully as they have.

This topic is pointless. And the bit about whether you have to prove he exists, or you have to prove he doesn't exist and not the other is arbitrary.

It's like looking at a glass half filled with water, and arguing whether it's half full or half empty.

But if you ask me, the glass is just too big! (my engineer point of view)

; )

[This message has been edited by Aeon (edited 03-20-2005).]

I'd say the glass is fine. If it were full, it'd be spilt too easily. However, I always drink water from a bottle.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

You said God doesn't exist, I just want you to back up this statement. I don't care what point you're trying to make. You made a claim in the affirmative, and I would like to see you back that claim up.

Where did I say that?

And in response, answer: Do flying undetectable purple cows exist?

quote:Originally posted by Me Ves y Sufres:

religious people=OWNED

Acutally, its the other way around!! In todays day and age, it takes a stronger person to say they believe in god, and follow his teachings, where as most simply decide not to believe because it's just an easier life style to live. The people that choose to believe, and follow gods teachings actually live a life that most others couldn't handle, simply because the lord teaches to love, and help your brothers and sisters on earth. And most of all, follow his commandments. Whereas most individuals cop out, because to live a rightious life is a hard thing to do! Those that cop out, and run like chickens are the owned ones!! They have no clue what true happiness is! They can't even go through one day without breaking at leat one commandment. If you can't even control your own actions, then you seriously need to think about who is free, and who is owned!! pick up a bible and read!!!!

^You managed to completely word your way around the demand: "prove me wrong". It's kinda the point of this thread.

quote:Originally posted by The_Reckoning:

^You managed to completely word your way around the demand: "prove me wrong". It's kinda the point of this thread.



I was just commenting on the quote religious people=owned.

The only true church is the New Age Church of Latter Day Druids.

quote:Originally posted by The_Reckoning:

Where did I say that?

And in response, answer: Do flying undetectable purple cows exist?

quote:Originally posted by The_Reckoning in the "Science and Religion" thread:

There is no God, tard.

They could exist, but there is more first hand encounters to make the idea of God more credible. When billions of people in the world begin to accept the existence of flying purple cows, then their possible existence will have more credence, but until then.....

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



which is why you believe the fairytale of chance to explain existance?

I don't even bother trying to explain existence anymore. I'll leave that to people who enjoy mental masturbation. Simply put: We don't know how we came to be, and I'm in no position to make such a discover at this point in my life, and I likely never will be. Don't assume what thoughts I have when I don't even mention the issue you're assuming my position on.

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

I don't even bother trying to explain existence anymore. I'll leave that to people who enjoy mental masturbation. Simply put: We don't know how we came to be, and I'm in no position to make such a discover at this point in my life, and I likely never will be. Don't assume what thoughts I have when I don't even mention the issue you're assuming my position on.



then, in a way, wouldnt that make you agnostic instead of athiest... i know that is splitting hairs and i know that i have said that i have more respect for atheists than agnostic. (I'm not insulting you here. I'm just trying to clarify (for myself).

But, how was i assuming when you said, "but I'll stick to evidence when I come up with explanations of the world.". There is really only two ways that existence came to be: chance or created.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

They could exist, but there is more first hand encounters to make the idea of God more credible. When billions of people in the world begin to accept the existence of flying purple cows, then their possible existence will have more credence, but until then.....

Ah, now I remeber that post... http://www.totse.com/bbs/eek.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/eek.gif)

Ok, So if I found a book detailing a war between, oh, say, Orcs and Elves, is that reason to believe in them?

And are you saying that the pure fact that people believe in something manifests it?

It doesn't make it true, but it gives it credence.

When billions of people in the world believe in and explain encounters they have had with elves and orcs, then that possibility will have more credence.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



then, in a way, wouldnt that make you agnostic instead of athiest... i know that is splitting hairs and i know that i have said that i have more respect for atheists than agnostic. (I'm not insulting you here. I'm just trying to clarify (for myself).

But, how was i assuming when you said, "but I'll stick to evidence when I come up with explanations of the world.". There is really only two ways that existence came to be: chance or created.

No, I'm an atheist for one simple reason: I don't believe a god exists. It's that simple. From there, I can either be a hard atheist or an agnostic atheist (what most people just call agnostic). There are also agnostic theists, people who simply think a god probably exists but that it doesn't matter. I think a god probably doesn't exist, and that it doesn't matter. Being a hard theist, nor a hard atheist makes little sense to me due to the complete lack of evidence; BUT lacking evidence justifies my thought that no god exists...look at solipsism if you want a thorough explanation of why I cannot be 100% certain no god exists.

I try to stick with probabilities rather than possibilities.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

It doesn't make it true, but it gives it credence.

When billions of people in the world believe in and explain encounters they have had with elves and orcs, then that possibility will have more credence.

I remember a time when I was 13 in one of my publications classes; we were going over logical fallacies that advertisers use to reach people, the most common one being the bandwagon technique. Just because people believe something and attribute things they cannot yet explain to their beliefs more than another belief does not give it more credence, if it did, creationists surely wouldn't have a case, would they? (Well, they really don't, but plenty of people in the States think they do.)

But do the claims have the right to be considered as true? The fact that billions of people in the world accept god atleast makes me think that maybe these people just could be right. I'm certainly not going to discount billions of people's first hand encounters and experiences with any god.

Now just because all these people believe in god, it does not make their beliefs true by any means, but you do have to consider their beliefs.

But if you closely examined the individual beliefs of those billions of people, you'd find innumerable contradictions. They may all believe in god, but the vast differences in their beliefs could lead a person to conclude that none of them have it right.

So no, those claims probably don't have the right to be considered as true.

So why should I listen to an atheist then?

You shouldn't. Hard atheists have no evidence saying "God doesn't exist." You should just accept the fact that whether there is a god or not cannot be known, and therefore should be considered, for the reason of lack of evidence, non-existant.

So what if people believe in one? That doesn't make it any less false, just more acceptable and common. The reason so many believe in a god is:

- They were raised to, and accept it as fact.

- Bandwagon jumping, i.e. believing because their peers do.

- Support mechanism, someone has nothing left to turn to.

- Fear of death, because they can't contemplate non-existance, and then rely on an afterlife of heaven/eden/utopia.

Lack of evidence leads to agnosticism, not atheism.

Atheism draws a conclusion from no evidence, so it is logical? How much sense does that make?

That was the point I was kind of going for. Sorry, I should have been clearer. I meant that none of the claims should be taken as truth, but it should be taken into consideration that there is something going on here.

[This message has been edited by Tesseract (edited 03-22-2005).]

Well, that is my point also...

The_Reckoning

I think it's pretty funny that you claim to "always approach things from a logical standpoint", yet you started this thread with the intellectual equivalent of:

"Nanny Nanny Boo Boo !"

You gave your opinion, without supporting it with any kind of literature, doctrine, or evidence.

I don't believe that follows the true nature of "debate", which is what this forum is supposed to be about.

Any respect that could have been given to you was completely nullified by this thread.

I hope you realize that.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 03-22-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by lao:

well....what about black holes? we cant see them and have no actual proof that they exist, they are an idea. they use stuff like "x rays" and shiz to try and prove they are there

You are a moron,

http://www.wonderquest.com/black-holes-how-many.htm

Take a look, you might get an education.

quote:Originally posted by Me Ves y Sufres:

i always come from the logical side which sais why do i have to prove that god doesn't exist, i say to the religious prove that it does exist.

i could say that i have a *anything* which no man can see or detect, prove that i don't have this *anything*.

see that is the fundamental flaw in religious thinking, why should i be asked to prove that he doesn't exist when there never was any evidence that he ever existed, from the other side i can say there is plenty of evidence to suggest that there isn't a "supreme being"

For arguments sake, let's just say that this "anything" you are referring to is "FAITH".

Since you don't have enough faith to lead you to believing in God, then I could very easily say that you are lacking in something that Christians aren't.

You seem to think that YOUR lack of faith equals a LACK of existence in God.

How does that work ?

You also do not specify in what ways you wish God to be proven to you. Physically ? Emotionally ? Spiritually ?

Physically - look at the world around you ! It is impossible to rule out Creation, based on the sheer genius involved alone. The complexity and miraculous nature of our universe is enough to prove that God created it all...if you are open to such a thing. If you say that the number 2 simply does not exist, how can you ever solve the equation of 1+1, or 5-3 ? It won't be possible. You've eliminated the only answer.

Emotionally - You could never understand such a thing until you open yourself up to the possibility of this experience. You cannot put the cart before the horse.

Spiritually - Only from the heart can spiritual things be seen rightly. If your heart is not with your Creator, then you are not experiencing it as it should be experienced. The spiritual proof of God lies within you...as circular as that may seem, you cannot prove God spiritually, until you experience Him spiritually. The choice is yours.

You are trying to present a case in which you have been challenged to prove that God exists...what Christian asks that without having first been asked to prove Him ?

As a Christian, I don't walk around snagging every pagan I can find, only to ask them to prove God doesn't exist. Christianity's core is based on FAITH (not stupidity or brain-washing), and "proof" removes the necessity for faith. Complete proof exists, but first you must believe. This is completely shunned by people who don't believe as being "circular"...except that's the way God intended it. It is the only way that FAITH could possibly work with any kind of merit unto itself. He knows it goes against our grain. That's how He likes it. Read the Bible; He's very consistent on this point.

And if it offends you to be asked to prove that He doesn't exist to the point that you are not only angered by it, but you dedicate your time to making fun of people who can see religion for it's possibilities, then don't you need to ask yourself "why" that is ?

I also think you should seriously consider why you are so concerned with other people proving things to you. Shouldn't YOU be responsible for your own beliefs, whether it be that you recognize that there is a God, or not ?

You are being dangerously wreckless and immature with your own existence...and you are trying to blame it on other people.

What it boils down to is that you are inept at having faith...how does that make you feel ?

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 03-22-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

Lack of evidence leads to agnosticism, not atheism.

Atheism draws a conclusion from no evidence, so it is logical? How much sense does that make?

Good GOD! Agnosticism is a subset of thought that exists both in theism and atheism. I am an agnostic atheist...meaning 'sure a god could exist, but I don't think one does since there's no evidence.' That's not a conclusion, that's keeping the default of 0 on a binary hypothesis. I'm beggin' you to be more dense, I think I'd overload from amazement if you could solidify further.

quote:Originally posted by The_Reckoning:

Warning: Uber-rant incoming. Scroll to bottom for short version.

---------

Atheism is logical.

Why?

Because lack of evidence is not evidence in itself, but is reason to believe that the inevidenced subject is false.

There is as much proof as for a god as for undetectable purple cows which fly behind clouds.

Now, by the false logic people use for believeing in a god, we could also believe in these cows.

Prove the cows don't exist, prove that god doesn't exist. Otherwise, by the logic of theists, the cows also exist. And by the logic of the agnostics, the cows might exist.





Anyway, for those who are religious, you cannot debate faith, as, by definition, it is not debatable.



But "evidence" is up to interpretation, isn't it ?

Evidence to me does not consist solely of the physical aspects of our world.

I cannot entertain an ideology that tells us that what we see with our eyes and touch with our hands is the only proof we need of ANYTHING spiritual. That's just ridiculous !

Atheism is logical to people who think atheism is logical.

Likewise, Christianity is logical to people who think Christianity is logical.

I don't find atheism to be terribly logical, because I do not see the universe as being defined only by the confines of human scientific understanding and ability.

To think that atheism is logical based on that alone is not only extremely arrogant, but foolhardy.

You think there is no evidence of God, because you have not looked for evidence the way God has given it.

You have looked for evidence in the things of man. That doesn't make any sense.

If you want to understand fire, do focus your studies solely on slugs ?

NO ! Why not ? Because they have absolutely nothing to do with fire.

I am sure you have heard this before, but it takes MUCH MORE faith to be an atheist than it does to believe in God.

If you expect to "disprove" God with this garbage, I have to be the first to tell you that you need to do a lot better than that.

But, how was i assuming when you said, "but I'll stick to evidence when I come up with explanations of the world.". There is really only two ways that existence came to be: chance or created.

Because I don't think it's chance; I don't think it's divine purpose. I think it's always been in some form of energy (the constant protraction of initial causes leads me to think this)...chance doesn't exist under current evidence, and neither does destiny or divinity. To quote I <3 Huckabees, "Everything is connected, but it doesn't fucking matter." You assumed I thought existence is pure chance, when I don't...you also assume the only alternative to that is creation, which it isn't.

quote:Originally posted by Tarnak:

I've said the same, but...

the "evidence" of the existance of god is that generations and generations ago, passed down, some of your ancestors saw a dude do some crazy things.

Now that's pretty shaky evidence, but it sure takes a while to get. =)

So religious people could accept god as true based on the trust in their elders, who trust their elders, etc. to a dude who walked on water.

So, I suppose you think that God doesn't influence His people through the Holy Spirit anymore ?

And I gather that you perceive healing of the mind and body to be an obsolete occurance nowadays ?

God proves Himself in many different ways, in every moment of our existence.

Simply because we are too prideful a generation to acknowledge it doesn't mean it is not happening.

quote:Originally posted by Void_Zero:

It depends on your definition of god .

If it's something like Tao , it makes perfect sense , existence itself is proof enough then . But some old guy sitting on a cloud watching over us all ? yeah , and the earth is flat as a pancake .

And can you please remind us all of which religion currently believes that God is an old man sitting on a cloud ?

It is eluding me at the moment.

*shakes head*

quote:Originally posted by BratBatten:

Religion is moronic. You actually believe that one day there was nothing, and the next there was everything as opposed to the scientific evidence that we slowly evolved from apes. How could you ignore such facts? Unbelieveable.

It is NOT moronic.

It is ineffective, and prideful.

I believe that an "omnipotent" God can create a universe in 6 days, if He says He did.

Yes.

quote: from The_Reckoning The idea is that, given the time scale on which the Earth had been left, a few molecules just happened to bump into each other, creating base amino acids. Eventually these bounced and joined together, and started self replicating... etc.

And it still has not been explained where these "few molecules" came from.

Even the capability of these mysterious molecules being able to "replicate" into another life form that could then replicate into another life form denotes INTELLIGENT DESIGN, which means that they were created to do so to begin with (if that's how it happened).

That alone is more evidence that God exists than you could ever produce that He doesn't.

quote:Originally posted by BratBatten:

The reason for this thread is obvious. Religion is destroying the world. Normally I have no compassion for any others with the exception of those that I gain something from their prescence but when religion causes such massive problem its worth talking about. I am not one to impose my will but when things become this hectic, drastic actions must be taken therefore the existance of holy beings must be disproved. And in regards of your "God exists because people believe in him," people also believe in ghosts, conspiracy, even that the government puts mind-control chips in us but that doesn't necessarily mean its true, some of it may be but the evidence against magic, thats all god is, is so strong that its become nearly impossible to ignore it unless you are so ignorant and narrow minded that you could deny the existance of earth itself.

You just clumped every religion of the world together into one statement.

That in itself SCREAMS of ignorance.

But just to play along, WHICH religion is destroying the world ?

HOW is the world being destroyed by religion ?

quote:Originally posted by Tesseract:

But if you closely examined the individual beliefs of those billions of people, you'd find innumerable contradictions. They may all believe in god, but the vast differences in their beliefs could lead a person to conclude that none of them have it right.

So no, those claims probably don't have the right to be considered as true.



Vast differences in persepctive does not erase the fundamental sense we all innately have that there is a purpose to "us".

No matter what flavor God comes in, there is God...to all people.

Call it what you like.

The common denominator amongst all people is "________" (plug in deity of choice here).

You can't ignore that, and the implications of it.

quote: from The_Reckoning Support mechanism, someone has nothing left to turn to.

I think that should be modified to: Spiritual clarity once a person comes to the end of himself.

The overpowering sense of "ourselves" is the spiritual disease that plagues us.

This is why Christianity seems to run rampant amongst AA and NA communities...it is not because these people are too weak to continue relying on themselves to make it through life (meaning that they need a crutch, so they resort to religion); rather, it is because they have come to the end of "themselves", and can finally rely on God, realizing that there is nothing worth relying on within them.

Humans fail themselves more than anything else in the universe.

When it becomes clear that "our way" does not work, it is much easier to see things "God's way".

Until you come to that point in your life, you obviously cannot relate.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:



Vast differences in persepctive does not erase the fundamental sense we all innately have that there is a purpose to "us".

No matter what flavor God comes in, there is God...to all people.

Call it what you like.

The common denominator amongst all people is "________" (plug in deity of choice here).

You can't ignore that, and the implications of it.

I haven't, you should really pay closer attention.

OK the whole god thing, you can only believe in one of the two things without being hipocritical God or Dinosaurs. Now there's tangible proof we at one time had dinosaurs, yeah? The only proof we have that there's a god, is a book written by who knows who, which was written some 200 yrs. after Jesus died, I choose dinosaurs.

quote:Originally posted by jessibanks76:

OK the whole god thing, you can only believe in one of the two things without being hipocritical God or Dinosaurs. Now there's tangible proof we at one time had dinosaurs, yeah? The only proof we have that there's a god, is a book written by who knows who, which was written some 200 yrs. after Jesus died, I choose dinosaurs.

Wow...you're retarded.

Tard motion seconded.

All in favor say "aye".

-Abra

quote:Originally posted by Cadabra:

Tard motion seconded.

All in favor say "aye".

-Abra

Thanks! Jesus was a carpenter who talked too much, and god is an imaginary friend for grown-ups. So you don't believe in dinosaurs?

quote:Originally posted by BratBatten:

Religion is moronic. You actually believe that one day there was nothing, and the next there was everything as opposed to the scientific evidence that we slowly evolved from apes. How could you ignore such facts? Unbelieveable.

Exactly! Logistics point to evolution, Religion points to people not wanting to assume the finality of death

quote:Originally posted by jessibanks76:

Exactly! Logistics point to evolution, Religion points to people not wanting to assume the finality of death

Hey tard! Religion accomodates the theory of evolution too. I know plenty of catholocs who believe in evolution.

quote:Originally posted by jessibanks76:

Thanks! Jesus was a carpenter who talked too much, and god is an imaginary friend for grown-ups. So you don't believe in dinosaurs?

Yes, I 'believe' in dinosaurs. In no way does the existence of dinosaurs prove or disprove anything about the existence of God. You tried to make a connection between something we do have evidence of (dinosaurs) and something we don't (God). It was a weak and pointless connection with several spelling and grammatical errors. Therein lies your tardation. No offense. PLUS, I was just seconding a motion that had already been made.

-Abra

quote:Originally posted by Cadabra:

Yes, I 'believe' in dinosaurs. In no way does the existence of dinosaurs prove or disprove anything about the existence of God. You tried to make a connection between something we do have evidence of (dinosaurs) and something we don't (God). It was a weak and pointless connection with several spelling and grammatical errors. Therein lies your tardation. No offense. PLUS, I was just seconding a motion that had already been made.

-Abra

First of all, the connection I made wasn't pointless. The "Bible" suggests Earth to be a mere 6000 yrs. old? "God" created it, along with all living beings, nowhere does it make any mention of dinosaurs, which existed some 35 million yrs. ago, right? How could have something existed on a planet which wasn't here? ALSO, I'm not posting my views to support my grammatical ability.............Bitch

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

Hey tard! Religion accomodates the theory of evolution too. I know plenty of catholocs who believe in evolution.

I guess the "catholics" are the ones you should be calling tard the. Believing in evolution totally negates the meaning of the bible

quote:Originally posted by jessibanks76:

I guess the "catholics" are the ones you should be calling tard the. Believing in evolution totally negates the meaning of the bible

Only if you take the bible at it's face value...

And who are you to be telling people how to read the bible?

quote:Originally posted by jessibanks76:

First of all, the connection I made wasn't pointless. The "Bible" suggests Earth to be a mere 6000 yrs. old? "God" created it, along with all living beings, nowhere does it make any mention of dinosaurs, which existed some 35 million yrs. ago, right? How could have something existed on a planet which wasn't here? ALSO, I'm not posting my views to support my grammatical ability.............Bitch

Alright cumdumpster, I'm trying to work here, and everytime I read one of your posts my IQ drops a point. If you keep it up, I may be tarded out enough in a month or so to actually understand your ignorant opinionated ass.

*Ignorant and Opinionated*

Doesn't it seem like they always go hand-in-hand?

-Abra

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

Only if you take the bible at it's face value...

And who are you to be telling people how to read the bible?

I'm not telling anyone "how " to read the bible, I've read the bible, and I got the same thing out of it everyone else I've talked to has. And anyway, if you're really a true believer in "God", you probably do take the bible at face value, is not that what religion is about? You in no way have made me look stupid, only contradicted the things you say, and how do you get the messages you do out of my posts?

quote:Originally posted by Cadabra:

Alright cumdumpster, I'm trying to work here, and everytime I read one of your posts my IQ drops a point. If you keep it up, I may be tarded out enough in a month or so to actually understand your ignorant opinionated ass.

*Ignorant and Opinionated*

Doesn't it seem like they always go hand-in-hand?

-Abra

You can have your opinion, not trying to change it, but post something that supports what you say instead of trying to make me look like an asshole.........Sweetie, your IQ wasn't that high to begin with, Probably a little higher after reading my "ignorant opinions" really

quote:Originally posted by jessibanks76:

I'm not telling anyone "how " to read the bible, I've read the bible, and I got the same thing out of it everyone else I've talked to has. And anyway, if you're really a true believer in "God", you probably do take the bible at face value, is not that what religion is about? You in no way have made me look stupid, only contradicted the things you say, and how do you get the messages you do out of my posts?

You do not have to take the bible literally if you believe in God, it is not expected that you take the bible literally if you believe in God, you don't have to read the bible to believe in God.

I haven't twisted anything you've said, I've merely responded to your posts. Like when you claimed that:

"Believing in evolution totally negates the meaning of the bible"

When that is really a load of bullshit.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

You do not have to take the bible literally if you believe in God, it is not expected that you take the bible literally if you believe in God, you don't have to read the bible to believe in God.

I haven't twisted anything you've said, I've merely responded to your posts. Like when you claimed that:

"Believing in evolution totally negates the meaning of the bible"

When that is really a load of bullshit.

How can you believe in creation and evolution?

God created the universe, and evolution created man. God is the initiator of the universe, while evolution is a facet of God's creation.

Many many people believe that God did not create man 6,000 years ago, but rather he created the universe in it's wholeness, and in that universe which God created, evolution took it's course.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I think that should be modified to: Spiritual clarity once a person comes to the end of himself.

Humans fail themselves more than anything else in the universe.

When it becomes clear that "our way" does not work, it is much easier to see things "God's way".

So you agree, then? What you're decribing there is a fallback, a support mechanism.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:



That alone is more evidence that God exists than you could ever produce that He doesn't.

It's also more evidence to indicate the existance of etheral purple cows, who have the ability to create universes.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

The_Reckoning

I think it's pretty funny that you claim to "always approach things from a logical standpoint"

Where.

By the way "[words]" means that you're giving exact words.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I don't find atheism to be terribly logical, because I do not see the universe as being defined only by the confines of human scientific understanding and ability.

That's an inane argument about the perception of reality. Humans percieve reality through human eyes, ears, noses, tongues and skin. Nothing more. Therefore, if it cannot be percieved, how can it be (logically) believed?







Throughout those posts, the theme has been "God must exist because there is no other explanation for X phenomenon."

That's where the argument becomes pointless. If someone already believes in a God, they usually are too far gone to see the logic behind atheism.



Answer me this, does this descirbe why people believe in a god:

"God has not been proven not to exist. Therefore, he must exist."

I really think you're over simplifying why people believe in god.

quote:Originally posted by jessibanks76:

How can you believe in creation and evolution?

This is the only point of your that i agree with. Just in case you dont know, I believe the Judeo-Christian God created everything about 6000 years ago. I also believe in dinosaurs.

You mentioned that you have read the bible. You also stated that the bible does not mention dinosaurs. The word "dinosaur" was coined in the 1800's (if i'm not mistaken). By your logic, if the bible doesnt mention dinosaurs, then the bible excludes the possibility of dinosaurs. By that same logic, dinosaur could not have existed prior to the coining of the word. The funny thing is, the bible does mention dino's. (check out the Book of Job for starters).

Like i said before, i do agree with you that you can not believe in a naturalistic origin and creation (which is called 'theistic evolution'). To me, that is a compromise that tries to make God's infallible Word fit into fallible man's ideas... in other words, it is saying that, "i believe God, but i think God made mistakes and man knows better than God".

BTW, you said that the Bible was written some 200 years after Jesus died. Maybe you might want to visit your local library and double check your info. on that one.

Oh ya, i almost forgot.. atleast a couple of folks that were flaming you, do not believe in creation.. in fact, some dont even believe in God.. they do however, believe in evolution...

concidering that they more or less believe what you do, and concidering that they jumped all over your posts, you might want to appologize to them.. or atleast take the time to read a good chuck of the thread before you jump in with both feet ablaz'n

quote:Originally posted by The_Reckoning:

Answer me this, does this descirbe why people believe in a god:

"God has not been proven not to exist. Therefore, he must exist."

For me, no. Some, maybe.

However, it does seem that atheists have ruled out the possibilty of God's existance because they have not recognized proof.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

God created the universe, and evolution created man. God is the initiator of the universe, while evolution is a facet of God's creation.

Many many people believe that God did not create man 6,000 years ago, but rather he created the universe in it's wholeness, and in that universe which God created, evolution took it's course.

So Adam an Eve have "symbolic" meanings in the Bible?

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

I really think you're over simplifying why people believe in god.

Simply put, God is a gateway for us (humans) not having to accept that to die means forever

[This message has been edited by jessibanks76 (edited 03-23-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by jessibanks76:

So Adam an Eve have "symbolic" meanings in the Bible?

Also, did God create the probably millions of other universes out there?

I think the existence of god was created through the first human hallucinations. There was a point in time (probably caveman time) where these dudes were constantly running to save there lives and they probably thought 'what is my purpose here?', at some point you're gonna start to go crazy and eventually the first hallucination came about. At this time they had to seek the answers they so desprately needed, you start hearing voices in your head, maybe God? It seems to me the people in the Bible had the same symptoms of the modern day schizophrenic. I think that the people in the Bible existed, I think Jesus existed, but as a carpenter who went crazy and told everyone of his new found hallucinations.

http://www.hisessence.com/category_s/3.htm

quote:Originally posted by jessibanks76:

....I think the existence of god was created through the first human hallucinations. There was a point in time (probably caveman time) where these dudes were constantly running to save there lives and they probably thought 'what is my purpose here?'.... At this time they had to seek the answers they so desprately needed, you start hearing voices in your head, maybe God?....

Gawldern! I think ya finely gotter figgered! All this time wasted, thinkin' bout Gawd and relijun. And then WUZAM, it jest came to ya, like an arrow from a hickory bow! A bunch of unevolved, hallucinating 'cavemen' came up with the whole thing in order to give there lives some purpose!? *YATZEE* http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

-Abra

quote:Originally posted by Cadabra:

Gawldern! I think ya finely gotter figgered! All this time wasted, thinkin' bout Gawd and relijun. And then WUZAM, it jest came to ya, like an arrow from a hickory bow! A bunch of unevolved, hallucinating 'cavemen' came up with the whole thing in order to give there lives some purpose!? *YATZEE* http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

-Abra



Yer frum kentucky 2?

quote:Originally posted by jessibanks76:

So Adam an Eve have "symbolic" meanings in the Bible?

Pretty much, or atleast in my view of the bible.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

Pretty much, or atleast in my view of the bible.

My family is/was Jehovas Witness, I'm not obviously, but only recently, I didn't know your religion was that different, I mean I thought a lot in the bible was symbolic, or was taught it was, but Adam and Eve are the real deal in my familys religion, so what are they symbolic of according to your beliefs? Thanks for not being as mean to me as everyone else

They symbolize that we are God's children and that we are created in God's image. The 7 days creation story symbolizes(IMO, and the opinion of many others) the stages of evolution and natural progression.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

They symbolize that we are God's children and that we are created in God's image. The 7 days creation story symbolizes(IMO, and the opinion of many others) the stages of evolution and natural progression.

Hmm? Interesting

quote:Originally posted by jessibanks76:

My family is/was Jehovas Witness, I'm not obviously, but only recently, I didn't know your religion was that different, I mean I thought a lot in the bible was symbolic, or was taught it was, but Adam and Eve are the real deal in my familys religion, so what are they symbolic of according to your beliefs? Thanks for not being as mean to me as everyone else

I take my Thanks back, you called me a tard too, you are a big meanie!!

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

They symbolize that we are God's children and that we are created in God's image. The 7 days creation story symbolizes(IMO, and the opinion of many others) the stages of evolution and natural progression.

http://www.intellectualwhores.com/sleepinggod.html

http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

THe only sign we will get is the sign of Jonah. The story of Jonah is a picture of spiritual rebirth.

The only evidence you will have to prove God's existence is when He changes the heart of a man.

Did you ever see man say He is born again? Could you believe the changes that occured in his life were done by the hands of God?

I can not change a person's heart from a cold, spiteful or hateful spirit to that of a spirit of love and neither can any man/woman. But, I've seen it and experienced it and when I felt God's presence for the first time, it was the first time I felt true love. Until you know that feeling, you will always doubt God's existence. But when you do, you will not be able to deny Him.

God can not be proven real or false with science because science is inadequate to measure love. Therefore anybody who demands physical proof will never get it. But to those who understand and surrender will get all the evidence of God they can handle.

God bless~

Hmmm, I changed my own heart from being cold and hateful to a rather nice one. To me, it seems that God isn't necessary to be a good person. I respect your belief that he is, but I find it to have worked differently for me.

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

Wow...you're retarded.

heyyyy...that wasn't nice.

But it was funny.

*laughs*

quote:Originally posted by jessibanks76:

Exactly! Logistics point to evolution, Religion points to people not wanting to assume the finality of death

Sorry...it's called "faith".

But try again.

quote:Originally posted by jessibanks76:

First of all, the connection I made wasn't pointless. The "Bible" suggests Earth to be a mere 6000 yrs. old? "God" created it, along with all living beings, nowhere does it make any mention of dinosaurs, which existed some 35 million yrs. ago, right? How could have something existed on a planet which wasn't here? ALSO, I'm not posting my views to support my grammatical ability.............Bitch

The Bible doesn't mention dinosaurs ?

You're serious, aren't you ? http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

Please stop talking about what you do not understand.

quote:Originally posted by jessibanks76:

How can you believe in creation and evolution?

Why don't you first try defining which of the various derivatives of evolution you are referring to ?

Macro or micro, just to name a few ?

Once you have determined which you are talking about, I can tell you (as a Christian).

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

God created the universe, and evolution created man. God is the initiator of the universe, while evolution is a facet of God's creation.

Many many people believe that God did not create man 6,000 years ago, but rather he created the universe in it's wholeness, and in that universe which God created, evolution took it's course.

Wishy washy Christians think that..

It is just one more way the devil has used our intelligence against us.

If we accept what the "world" says, and incorporate it into what the "bible" says, everyone is happy, right ?

Christians that believe that the world is millions of years old don't piss anyone off that isn't Christian...which should be a TELL-TALE sign that they aren't standing up for the principles of Christianity, as defined by the Bible.

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

Hmmm, I changed my own heart from being cold and hateful to a rather nice one. To me, it seems that God isn't necessary to be a good person. I respect your belief that he is, but I find it to have worked differently for me.

And how did you determine what is "good" ?

The_Reckoning:

The "logical" statement I made was a mistake. That was for the original poster...my apologies.

I'll reply to the rest of what you said soon.

Here is a point, Do you know who wrote the bible? It was written by man, man is falable, and makes mistakes. Atomic particles just didnt like eachother one day and create humans. Something had to make that happen. Remember your fundamental physics? Matter cannot be created or destroyed? Something had to make that happen as well.

Do you know who inspired fallible man to write the Bible ?

OMNIPOTENT GOD, who can do all things.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:



Christians that believe that the world is millions of years old don't piss anyone off that isn't Christian...which should be a TELL-TALE sign that they aren't standing up for the principles of Christianity, as defined by the Bible.

Wait! So you are admitting that pissing off non christians is a christianic principle?? *lol* http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Wishy washy Christians think that..

It is just one more way the devil has used our intelligence against us.

If we accept what the "world" says, and incorporate it into what the "bible" says, everyone is happy, right ?

Christians that believe that the world is millions of years old don't piss anyone off that isn't Christian...which should be a TELL-TALE sign that they aren't standing up for the principles of Christianity, as defined by the Bible.

Fuddy buddy christians think that.

I just go by what science and logic show me. Science shows me that evolution happened and that is why we are here(For semantics, I guess evolution is still going on). Logic tells me that God created the universe and everything in it, because right now in time that is the only way I can imagine coming into origin from nothingness. I put two and two together, thus I think God initiated evolution.

You make it sound like I compromised against my will when I really didn't. I just thought throught what was the most likely scenario, and science and my brain points me to both creation and evolution.

quote:Originally posted by The_Reckoning:



http://www.intellectualwhores.com/sleepinggod.html



Thank you, that was quite refreshing. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

And how did you determine what is "good" ?

Unless you subscribe to duality, then there really is no set definition...I just prefer being the constructive platform of unity rather than the destructive one...it's much easier to say 'good' than go into a two hour explanation of unified constructionism, especially when I only have 10 minutes to spare. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Oh, and I have a few more questions:

Is God all-loving? If so, why send people to hell?

Is God omniscient? If so, why allow Adam and Eve to bring pain upon themselves?

Is God omnipotent? If so, whe does He allow the suffering of children?

What of the mountains of evidence supporting evolution?

Why does a God who does not clearly demonstrate His existance punish those who do not assume it?