When the Pope dies, who will the new one be? How does the new Pope get picked? Is he elected? Can I be the Pope?

elected council of bishops me thinks.

Isnt the (pardon my horribly spelling) Dhali Lama dubbed the 'chosen one' at birth? Is The Pope anything like that?

Oh, and do you think he'd wanna be on my dodgeball team?

[This message has been edited by Brady (edited 03-22-2005).]

As far as I know its elected by the head council of bishops in Vatican.

http://people.howstuffworks.com/papacy.htm

How the Pope works.

Heh...that's a cool site, Python.

Thanks for sharing.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 03-22-2005).]

I don't think Catholics recognize the blazing contradiction of their doctrine that the Pope is the "Vicar of Christ", when he has been clearly chosen by men throughout the history of the religion.

I don't find it miraculous, or even believable, that men voting on who should be the next Vicar is in the slightest bit "Divine".

"The College of Cardinals elects a new pope in conclave, which is the process of sequestering the voting members of the college in Vatican City so that they have no contact with the outside world."

It's a popularity contest...which is sad.

And this afflicts all religion, not just Catholicism.

This "appointment" serves as a reminder of why we should not seek to be religious, but rather "Holy" in the sight of the Lord.

I mean, think about these things:

"First, he confirms the pope's death by calling the pope's name three times without response."

I mean...does anyone else see anything wrong with the simplicity of this useless ceremony ?

"Prior to burial, the pope's body is placed inside a coffin that is encased in two others. The coffins are made of cypress, elm, and lead."

And the spiritual purpose of this is what ?!

Jesus said, "Let the dead bury their dead...", which means that the body means absolutely nothing once it perishes. The SOUL is what we should be concerned about...

All this ceremony means nothing to God, whom should be considered in everything we do, as people of faith.

"Arrangements are made to ensure that the cardinals are not approached as they are transported between St. Martha's and the Sistine Chapel. "

Ummm...why not ? Will they be distracted from their popularity contest ?

"It is an accepted practice for popes to publish the norms that regulate the election of their successors, and popes often make small adjustments to the procedures. John Paul II explains that these changes are made "with the intention of responding to the needs of the particular historical moment."

Hmmm...ok.

Absolutely no consideration for God in there, at all.

"Culture" manipulates the Church.

Awesome.

"A two-thirds-plus-one majority is required to elect a pope."

Or else what ? God won't bless them ?

Shouldn't it be GOD who ordains men of faith to lead the congregation ?

"I call as my witness Christ the Lord who will be my judge, that my vote is given to the one who before God I think should be elected."

Ok.

What "I" think ?!!!

That is precisely what is wrong with the Catholic Church...they make all the decisions, and don't include God (yes, they say "before God, my judge", but there is hardly any merit in that sentence when they are doing all the deciding, is there ?).

Again, this seems like a popularity contest.

"If no pope has been chosen, a chemical is applied to the ballots in order to create black smoke when burned. White smoke signals that a pope has been elected. "

Wow.

Significant, and holy.

"As the newly elected pope accepts his new role, it is tradition for him to select a new name. The name change also symbolizes the new life that the new pope is entering as the head of the Catholic Church."

WHY ?

I have to ask that question about almost the entire religion of Catholicism.

Why is the Pope's name important ?

The Bible tells us that our names are already written in the Book of Life (or not, depending upon which path you choose)...which means that no matter how many times you change it, it will be the same to God.

I can't imagine what difference this could possibly make to anyone's faith.

I could go on and on about this pontification process, but I think you all get my point, by now.

I obviously come from a non-denominational Christian perspective.

And while I do not mean to say that this way is the only right way, I have to point out that Catholicism claims itself to be a Christian religion, yet everything that signifies the difference between Catholicism and the rest of the Christian religions has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE BIBLE.

How can you create an entire religion based on Christianity, yet let every action, ritual, and prayer be misguided and un-Biblical ?

I don't mean to be disrespectful...so, for all you Catholics out there, take what I am saying with a grain of salt. And accept my apologies...

I just can't stand how men get in the way of a meaningful, fulfilling relationship with God, by creating all these silly, hollow rituals and ceremonies.

I don't see how ANY of this glorifies God.

And I don't see WHERE IN THE BIBLE any of this is commanded.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 03-22-2005).]

Well someone doesn't like catholicism.....

Matthew 16:17-19

Jesus replied, "Blessed are you , Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but my Father in heaven. (18) And I tell you that you are Peter(Rock), and on this rock I will build MY CHURCH, and the gates of Hades wil not overcome it. (19) I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."



Apostolic succession deems the process for choosing the pope necessary and holy.

Does God do anything blantantly? Since He doesn't come down here and pick someone, what would you have? I really wouldn't call it a popularity contest. That's sort of dumb. The men voting have devoted their entire lives to God. You can't really deny that, so I doubt they care to much about picking anybody but who they think would be a good Pope.

WHY DOES EVERYTHING HAVE TO SERVE A SPIRITUAL PURPOSE? Somethings are just nice. Are they not? Geez

If God would come down here and appoint someone, that would work, but that doesn't happen, but He does ordain them through the people in the Church. He works through them. Is that implossible? Does God talk to you? We make the best desiscions we can, don't we?

Symbolism? What is wrong with it? How is it interfering with our relationship with God?

IT ISN'T!

Which actions are the actions, rituals, and prayers that are unbiblical? What is hollow?

I'll tell you. Nothing.

You can't back up anything you say with scripture. You say none of Catholic doctrine can be backed up by scripture. Evertime I post scripture you never respond to it. Never.

She has a habit of doing that when defeated........

Arguably every ceremony is pointless, but then it has to be argued that it has an enduring use to have survived so long otherwise. Ever hear of meme?

The next popes motto wil be "Gloria olivae" according to http://www.catholic-pages.com/grabbag/malachy.asp

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

Well someone doesn't like catholicism.....

No, I don't like MAN manipulating the Bible to serve their own selfish desires.

BIG difference.

And for the record, I don't like religion in general.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

Matthew 16:17-19

Jesus replied, "Blessed are you , Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but my Father in heaven. (18) And I tell you that you are Peter(Rock), and on this rock I will build MY CHURCH, and the gates of Hades wil not overcome it. (19) I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."



Apostolic succession deems the process for choosing the pope necessary and holy.

Manipulation...

Jesus was not dedicating Peter as head of His church.

Peter was a great apostle, and to that end, Jesus acknowledged this.

We are all to be stewards and disciples.

Pure and simple.

Would you like me to post the verses that support this ?

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

Does God do anything blantantly? Since He doesn't come down here and pick someone, what would you have? I really wouldn't call it a popularity contest. That's sort of dumb. The men voting have devoted their entire lives to God. You can't really deny that, so I doubt they care to much about picking anybody but who they think would be a good Pope.

WHY DOES EVERYTHING HAVE TO SERVE A SPIRITUAL PURPOSE? Somethings are just nice. Are they not? Geez

If God would come down here and appoint someone, that would work, but that doesn't happen, but He does ordain them through the people in the Church. He works through them. Is that implossible? Does God talk to you? We make the best desiscions we can, don't we?

Symbolism? What is wrong with it? How is it interfering with our relationship with God?

IT ISN'T!

Which actions are the actions, rituals, and prayers that are unbiblical? What is hollow?

I'll tell you. Nothing.

You can't back up anything you say with scripture. You say none of Catholic doctrine can be backed up by scripture. Evertime I post scripture you never respond to it. Never.



God chooses who He will to serve His purpose. He doesn't need man to do it for Him.

And yes...EVERYTHING has a spiritual purpose, or at least it should. If you think otherwise, you don't know the heart of God.

I don't see how it is "dumb" to call men out for having yet ANOTHER pissing contest with each other.

I do not deny that the men who choose the Pope have spent their lives in dedication to God. I don't see what that has to do with anything.

They are still sinners, and no better than you or I.

God is our judge, IN ALL THINGS. Not man.

God doesn't come "down here" (even though He is everywhere...I wonder at your perception of His omnipotent presence) and pick a man to run the show, because that is not what He wants or needs.

Yes, God talks to me...on the rare occasion that I am listening.

When God ordains a man to be a teacher, it is self evident. He does not need to be appointed...go into any good non-denominational church, and you will find a pastor that started his church with only himself. God brought people to HIM, not the other way around.

I didn't say anything about symbolism. I was speaking against IDOLATRY.

I have told you SEVERAL time what is not of God as far as ceremonies, rituals, and prayers are concerned. I am sorry that you didn't listen, and that you are blinded to the blatant truths regarding your religion.

You have posted scripture twice, and in those posts you copied and pasted about 300 scriptures, to which I could never adequately respond in one lifetime.

You also posted scripture from books I do not recognize to be God's word. Catholicism throws some extra books in there to solidify their MAN-MADE beliefs (and just for good measure).

I didn't "not" respond because I couldn't. You not only presented me with an impossible task, but you didn't account for the fact that I have a life.

So, why don't you try posting those scriptures 5 at a time ? That's reasonable.

I like that you're pissed...for once, you are actually thinking with your own mind.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

She has a habit of doing that when defeated........

Don't be a bastard !

I have a habit of not responding when I have children to tend to...or have surgery...or work !

Gimme a friggin' break !

I am not here to be defeated, NOR be victorious.

This can all be chalked up to opinion, no ? Then I can never be defeated, and neither can you.

That fact that you don't recognize that shows that you aren't paying attention.

quote:Originally posted by NightVision:

The next popes motto wil be "Gloria olivae" according to http://www.catholic-pages.com/grabbag/malachy.asp

Am I the only one who can see the utter POINTLESSNESS of that ?

Again I ask, how does that glorify God ?

I would consider a man dedicating his entire adult life to God glorifying him.

quote:Manipulation...

Jesus was not dedicating Peter as head of His church.

Peter was a great apostle, and to that end, Jesus acknowledged this.

We are all to be stewards and disciples.

Pure and simple.

Would you like me to post the verses that support this ?

I am not manipulating anything here. The passage that Peter should be the foundation for(first pope) God's church(the catholic church). It's right there in the text. I don't know how you see manipulation in this case.

quote:Don't be a bastard !

I have a habit of not responding when I have children to tend to...or have surgery...or work !

Gimme a friggin' break !

I am not here to be defeated, NOR be victorious.

This can all be chalked up to opinion, no ? Then I can never be defeated, and neither can you.

That fact that you don't recognize that shows that you aren't paying attention.

I just call it as I see it. I know nothing of you personal life. There have been threads where you have just stopped posting after being challenged. I just call it as I see it.

quote:Originally posted by AngrySquirrel:

Arguably every ceremony is pointless, but then it has to be argued that it has an enduring use to have survived so long otherwise. Ever hear of meme?

Yeah...how the fuck does that work, anyway?!

"The word "conclave" comes from the Latin phrase cum clavis, meaning "with key." The term is suitable since the cardinals are locked inside the Sistine Chapel in the Apostolic Palace during the voting process."

Anyone else think it would be funny if they didn't let them out afterwards...?

The way God shows His will, He wants to be the Pope is through people. He is choosing, it's just not by coming down so we can see Him. He doesn't need it to be that way, but that's the way it is. And I'm curious what makes you think you know that isn't what God wants?

My calender doesn't have much of a spiritual purpose, this hat on my floor doesn't have much of a spiritual purpose. I guess I just don't know the heart of God...

The fact that these men spend their lives in devotion to God, means that they probably don't care about other peoples' opinions of them more that God's. It's not a pissing contest. Yeah, that is dumb.

At your church, do they ever stand up or light candles on Christmas Eve or anything like that? Is there signigicance to this? Of course. Just like everything you think in Catholicism that is idolatrous. They call the Popes name three times, let smoke in the air, light candles... So what? We honor the Pope not worship. You know that. He is the Head of the Church of our faith. Its like people saluting the president or something. Its not getting in the way of anything, it's not really a big deal.

Luther took a lot of books out that were in the Bible for a long time. He took them out because he couldn't stand the things they stood for.

Peter was obviously put at the Head of the Church.

quote:Originally posted by bexisevil:

Yeah...how the fuck does that work, anyway?!



Meme is like social genetics. Think of language as a virus. Think of how "All your base are belong to us", "OMGWTFBBQ", "G0atse", and "Roflcopter" spread around the internet. That is advanced meme in its distribution, but I doubt(and hope not) that those terms will spread to our grandchildren.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Don't be a bastard !

I have a habit of not responding when I have children to tend to...or have surgery...or work !

Gimme a friggin' break !

I am not here to be defeated, NOR be victorious.

This can all be chalked up to opinion, no ? Then I can never be defeated, and neither can you.

That fact that you don't recognize that shows that you aren't paying attention.







WTF? First you skirt the issue on the excuse that you have no time to pay attention, then you retort that your opponent isn't paying attention-a red herring-, since you have no proof that he is or isn't paying attention whatsoever. Hypocritical and ad hominem slander.

Using the same logic, the amount of effort you're putting into attacking another sect of Christianity is not only detracting from your true faith, but also detracting from the care of your children. Since you have sacrificed the invaluable time that could be put to use for family matters in favor of your ad hominem attacks, it is clear that you strive for 'victory', or else the sacrifice would be to waste. For Christ's sake(and yes, I will swear by that here), you're not even lending a helping hand or proselytizing, you're just SPITING. Since you are recovering from surgery and have a family to take care of, help them and give yourself a rest. As you well know, you must help yourself before you help others. Lower yourself a little before your ego hits the roof. You have more important things to deal with.



quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

And I don't see WHERE IN THE BIBLE any of this is commanded.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

Matthew 16:17-19

Jesus replied, "Blessed are you , Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but my Father in heaven. (18) And I tell you that you are Peter(Rock), and on this rock I will build MY CHURCH, and the gates of Hades wil not overcome it. (19) I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."



Now he gave an example of Scripture.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:



but you didn't account for the fact that I have a life.

Ad hominem again...he may 'have' or 'not have' a life. Considering how long these are...let's not be hypocritical.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I like that you're pissed...for once, you are actually thinking with your own mind.

I sense great anger and pride in this one....

I would like gods help with something. Shall i have the milk or cordial???

Cardinals and maybe Bishops (I didnt know this) go into a place in the vatican and debate 'who should be the new pope'.

A cardinal is elected usually.

The smoke coming out of this building is meant to change colour once they have decided.

Thats all I remember.

quote:Originally posted by AngrySquirrel:

I sense great anger and pride in this one....

Bump. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

Bump. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Yeah, it was kind of ridiculous how you could agree on many points, but if there was an inch of dissent she'd go berserk. Huge ego trip.

quote:WTF? First you skirt the issue on the excuse that you have no time to pay attention, then you retort that your opponent isn't paying attention-a red herring-, since you have no proof that he is or isn't paying attention whatsoever. Hypocritical and ad hominem slander.

Using the same logic, the amount of effort you're putting into attacking another sect of Christianity is not only detracting from your true faith, but also detracting from the care of your children. Since you have sacrificed the invaluable time that could be put to use for family matters in favor of your ad hominem attacks, it is clear that you strive for 'victory', or else the sacrifice would be to waste. For Christ's sake(and yes, I will swear by that here), you're not even lending a helping hand or proselytizing, you're just SPITING. Since you are recovering from surgery and have a family to take care of, help them and give yourself a rest. As you well know, you must help yourself before you help others. Lower yourself a little before your ego hits the roof. You have more important things to deal with.[/b]

To say that I have skirted ANY issue is to insinuate that not only did I not have an answer, but that I intentionally avoided the subject because of it.

On both accounts, you are wrong. I don't "skirt".

This is the internet, for pete's sake. Any and all ridicule, rejection, and disapproval I could reasonably fear in reaction to my faith in the real world does not apply here. I have no reason to dodge arguments.

As a matter of fact, in real life, I don't either. I am just as brash.

I just find it ridiculous for you all to think that I can be available to defend my position 24 hours a day. I am ridiculed when I do show up, and I am ridiculed when I don't. I hardly see how that is a fair, objective approach to my presence here on Totse...especially from those who claim to be infinitely more intelligent and objective than I !

If I am not here, there is a reason for it, such as tending to my family. If I am here, it is because God has graced me with a few moments in which I can dedicate the time and attention necessary when posting as I do.

It's not that hard to figure out, yet I am constantly called upon, by order of criticism, to defend what I do and don't do.

You all claim to detest what I have to say, and then spend the majority of your time focusing on it as part of your daily Christian bashing. I find that interesting; and odd that you don't.

If someone is not paying attention to what I am saying, that is what it is. If I am not here for a period of time which prevents me from responding to a post, I don't see how that is relative. Apples and oranges.

My approach to Catholicism is strictly Biblical, in context. The anger I feel toward the entity of Catholicism (not it's people in particular) is of my own human perception. God tells us not to be idolaters, and that no one comes before Him in importance in our lives. The Catholic Church violates both tenets of the Christian faith, along with countless others.

I get angry for their ability to control people into focusing on themselves, and other things (such as Mary, and the Saints) instead of God.

I feel that this anger is perfectly justified, though what I do with it may not be.

I surely admit that I come across as too harsh most of the time...but that doesn't change the meaning of what I (and God) are saying. It also doesn't make the Catholic Church RIGHT !

It's not about right and wrong...it is about the importance of our relationship with God.

Christians don't know how to handle their own lives, even though they have a handbook, given to them by their Creator. Why do you think that is ?

The Catholic Church, along with most other denominations, is leading them astray with their legalism and ritualistic homage to man-made things.

They aren't properly equipping them to be as effective as they could be.

If you think that is not cause for anger, then you don't understand Christianity, and shouldn't be scolding me on how I discuss it with other people.

I am just curious where in the Bible we are commanded to care for ourselves before we care for others...

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 04-04-2005).]

quote:I sense great anger and pride in this one....

Since "Angry" is your namesake, I will have to assume you consider yourself to be a leading authority on the subject.

However, you are incorrect.

I wasn't angry, and wasn't being prideful.

When I see unbelievers getting angry, I am happy. Not because of the anger, but because something deeper is being touched, else they would not react with such passion.

That is not an elusive concept.

quote:Originally posted by AngrySquirrel:

Yeah, it was kind of ridiculous how you could agree on many points, but if there was an inch of dissent she'd go berserk. Huge ego trip.

*lol*

Berserk ?

Hmmm...I can't remember the last time I accused someone of being a cunt on here (that is just an example of how kind and respectfully calm all of YOU are).

I am hardly the example of EGO on Totse ! *LAUGHS*

That is not to say that I don't have one, but you are definitely barking up the wrong tree with that accusation.

I don't see you attacking Rust for his arrogance. Or how about Hexadecimal, who is a self-professed model of human perfection ?

And our dear friends Metalligod and dearestnight_falcon...who could forget their peaceful, yet disrespectful, disdain for the intelligence of others on Totse...who clearly do not meet their intellectual criterion.

For people who think they are too good for God to say that I have an ego problem is pretty hilarious.

I already know I'm arrogant as all Hell...hardly useful pointing it out for me. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

LOL

No, friend...I wasn't doing that.

I was saying that to call me arrogant above all else (which is essentially what they are doing by pointing it out every chance they get, and only to me) is ridiculous.

You said it yourself, and it wasn't intended as ridicule from me to you.

Peace.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)