First off, I respect Christianity very much.

Is it better to be a devout Christian and be a bad person? Or an atheist, who lives their life as a very decent person?

Well considering both would lead you to the same place, I'm going to call that a push.

So I'm assuming that you mean that a bad christian person is equal to a non believer who led a great life?

There is nothing wrong with your beliefs, thing is many christians feel that its their way or the hell highway.

P.S

I would consider myself a revised christian, so do not think i am trying to bash the religon.

What do you mean "bad Christian"? Is that someone who is a Christian who also does bad things, or is it a person who pretends to be a Christian, but really just uses it as a crutch?

A christian who acts as a bad human being.

All Christians are bad people, that's the point. Everyone is a sinner, and is going to hell for that. But Jesus took on everyone's sins and died for us so we don't have to. So really there's no such thing as a good Christian.

Are you talking about in the after-life or just which is overall better in out time?

If you are talking about the after-life then both are equal.

If you are talking about which is better in the present then it is the atheist.

quote:If you are talking about the after-life then both are equal.

If you are talking about which is better in the present then it is the atheist.[/B]

No, the bad Christian is better off b/c he goes to heaven.

The Atheist, unfortunately, goes to hell.

UMMM.... No....

The bad christian would go to hell too.

Christians get into heaven based on faith, not works. That's the whole point of salvation and forgiveness. If someone gives their life to Christ, yet still sins and is repentant, then he goes to heaven.

[This message has been edited by SeussSmith (edited 03-24-2005).]

Except you have to be truely repentent, it isn't just a lip service. But this repentence can apply to everyone, as long as you have faith in God.

Who is to say Christianity is better then other religons?

I think it is absurd to say you will go to hell is you do not believe in Jesus Christ. A God who would do that, is not worth worshipping.

The only people who go to hell are Christians. Anyone who doesn't even believe in hell (such as atheists) wouldn't go there because it doesn't exist to them. SO basically everyone else just dies and their soul goes off somewhere and probably gets stuck on the roof....

[This message has been edited by thatsMYdog (edited 03-24-2005).]

^^^ what he said

If you don't believe in God, then why even bother worrying about or discussing hell?

I do believe in God or Gods...my thing about christianity is its lack of tolerance for other religons. I had a discussion today with my teachers about my beliefs and she tried to send me to the principal.

Do you think this is exclusive to only christianity?

Even then, if you're of another faith, why would you care about what a god you don't even accept wants to do to you?

I never said I do not believe in the christian God. I would consider myself a revised christian.

I was talking about people of other faiths in general. Why would a muslim or a Hindu or a pagan care about what a god they don't even believe in is going to do to them in the afterlife?

That is very true. Last year there was a girl in my Algerba class that told me I was going to Hell for not going to church. People like that should not be allowed to speak if they are going to be so insenstive.

Catholics preach baptism through works. So a really good person of another faith accepts Christ's sacrifice by his deeds, showing that he lives in the spirit of the Law.

quote:Romans (NIV) 2:12-29:

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

The Jews and the Law



17Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and brag about your relationship to God; 18if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; 19if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, 20an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of infants, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth– 21you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? 22You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23You who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24As it is written: “God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”

25Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised. 26If those who are not circumcised keep the law's requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? 27The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.

28A man is not a Jew if he is only one o*utwardly, nor is circumcision merely o*utward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.

This was an excerpt of Paul chastising the Jews among the early Church for being self-assured of their salvation by virtue of their circumcision and the fact that the law had been revealed to them as a people, but I think it's where the doctrine comes from. Romans is widely regarded among Christians as a good text for understanding the Christian idea of the New Covenant.

Now of course, most Protestants: Martin Luther, et al., focus on Justification by Faith alone (not faith and works), and in their theological construct, only those who accept Jesus' Covenant directly attain salvation.

[Edit: asterisk added to circumvent the automatic redaction script.]

[This message has been edited by Sephiroth (edited 03-26-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by AnAsTaSiO:

First off, I respect Christianity very much.

Is it better to be a devout Christian and be a bad person? Or an atheist, who lives their life as a very decent person?





There is a flaw with your thinking. Christianity is not about preparing to live in this world but to learn how to live in what comes after it.

Christians believe in an inheritence of an eternal rest in Heaven where the rules of the kingdom of God are based on the golden rule. God set down His commandments as the laws of Heaven. These laws are a shadow of things to come and what we will all be judged by. His laws define how it will be. Our existence here on earth is designed for us to either accept those rules or reject them and by our choice we will either be admitted or rejected.

Consider the rules that your parents made for your house. I'm sure at one time in your life they said, these are the rules of the house, if you want to live here, you will also live by our rules.

So this earthly existence for the Christian can be seen as a lifetime to beat ones body with discpline to comform to the person God designed us to be. Which is a being made in the image of Him/ or in other words to confrom to the likeness of Christ.

For the Athiest - ??? I suppose the reward for good behavior is your goverment ordained freedom from state prison and then the eventual grave. The goal of the athiest I guess is to conform to the will of the government and the world. What is the point otherwise of good behavior other then to win the favor of man?



As for the Christian the point of good behavior is to win the favor of God. There lies the difference. It is beneficial for all to be good and kind to one another but without understanding the concepts of love I'm afraid the human species would be no different then the animal kingdom and at that point good behavior would be a moot point.



[This message has been edited by Sig_Intel (edited 03-26-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by AnAsTaSiO:

First off, I respect Christianity very much.

Is it better to be a devout Christian and be a bad person? Or an atheist, who lives their life as a very decent person?



Our lives mean nothing without the presence of God in them.

We are all bad people. God tells us in the Bible that we are all born into sin, which means no matter HOW GOOD we try to be, we will still fall short of the glory of God.

Our inability to resist packing on the transgressions is the reason why Christ came as a living sacrifice, to atone for our sins.

Once Christ is accepted into the heart, those sins are no longer our burden.

Your question asks which is better, to be a Christian sinner, or a pagan sinner...

I think the answer is obvious.

Hope that helps.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

Are you talking about in the after-life or just which is overall better in out time?

If you are talking about the after-life then both are equal.

If you are talking about which is better in the present then it is the atheist.



An "athiest" is not it's own thing.

An athiest makes himself one...and his choice doesn't prove or disprove the existence of God..

For the sake of discussion, if there really is a God out there, then that person being an athiest does nothing to change that fact.

Which means that even without their knowledge, they are in worse shape than a Christian who sins.

We all sin. Not everyone believes.

That's the only difference.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

UMMM.... No....

The bad christian would go to hell too.

Then you don't know what being a Christian is all about.

Do you think that Christians are not expected to sin just as much as the unbeliever ?

Once a person is saved, unless they recant and decide to believe that there really isn't a God (which is the only UNFORGIVABLE SIN), they can never go to Hell.

That is a pretty basic principle in the Bible.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

Except you have to be truely repentent, it isn't just a lip service. But this repentence can apply to everyone, as long as you have faith in God.

Giving your heart to Christ is the ultimate repentance. The price is paid for your sin, at that point.

It cannot be revoked. It's called a covenant.

What kind of just God would have such a clause in a Salvation Agreement ?

Hardly fair, or righteous.

I am not saying that we shouldn't be repentant for our sins POST conversion, but it is more for US than it is for GOD.

Repentance has nothing to do with redemption, after you've been saved...it has everything to do with humility, and appreciating God's grace.

quote:Originally posted by AnAsTaSiO:

Who is to say Christianity is better then other religons?

I think it is absurd to say you will go to hell is you do not believe in Jesus Christ. A God who would do that, is not worth worshipping.

Then I suggest you take that issue up with God, because that is exactly what He says.

He sent a part of Himself down to earth to die as a sacrifice for our sins, which are unbearable to Him.

To scoff at that, using human logic, is fallacy.

How can you be a "christian", and not believe that ? I know you said "revised" or something to that effect, but no explanation of what that means was really given.

quote:Originally posted by thatsMYdog:

The only people who go to hell are Christians. Anyone who doesn't even believe in hell (such as atheists) wouldn't go there because it doesn't exist to them. SO basically everyone else just dies and their soul goes off somewhere and probably gets stuck on the roof....





Your perception of what exists and what does not doesn't alter the actual truth.

If God exists, whether you acknowledge it or not, you are going to Hell if you don't believe in Him.

How you see life is very sad...I am sorry you feel that way.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 03-26-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

^^^ what he said

If you don't believe in God, then why even bother worrying about or discussing hell?

Which is why I wonder why people come in here every single day, angry and vehemently opposing a God whom they do not believe exists.

If He's not out there, what are you all so pissed off about ?

quote:Originally posted by AnAsTaSiO:

I do believe in God or Gods...my thing about christianity is its lack of tolerance for other religons. I had a discussion today with my teachers about my beliefs and she tried to send me to the principal.

So, her perceived close-mindedness means that God doesn't exist because she is Christian ?

And you didn't say how you approached the conversation. Perhaps you were overtly rude, or disrespectful.

Perhaps you said something inappropriate.

It is easy to see the speck in another man's eye, and ignore the plank hanging out of your own.

*winks*

quote:Originally posted by AnAsTaSiO:

That is very true. Last year there was a girl in my Algerba class that told me I was going to Hell for not going to church. People like that should not be allowed to speak if they are going to be so insenstive.

Going to church is a man-made requirement of the Christian faith, not a God-made requirement.

God wants a relationship with you, and whatever you can do to make that happen in a productive and fulfilling manner sits well with Him.

The Bible tells us that "Where 2 or 3 are gathered in My name, there am I in their midst. "(Matthew 18:19-20, 1 Cor. 14:26; Acts 1: 14; Acts 2;42; Revelation 3:20-21; Rev. 22:17) for a reason...we need that fellowship. We need encouragement, and we NEED TO EDUCATE OURSELVES ON WHAT THE WORD OF GOD TRULY SAYS.

Those are all good reasons for going to church regularly. If you don't, then you will see the effects that the world will have on you over time.

As it is with anything that we believe holds merit, we must stay involved.

If you don't go to soccer practice, you won't be as good as your potential allows. I know that is a weak analogy, but it is applicable.

Again, church is not a requirement, it is just a very good idea if you want to grow in your faith.

quote: Posted by Sig_Intel As for the Christian the point of good behavior is to win the favor of God.

I see what you COULD mean by this statement, so I would like to ask you to clarify that a little, just so I don't have to assume.

For Christians, trying NOT to sin helps us to live more fulfilling lives, by allowing God to be closer to us. Guilt and a lack of repentance can create a wall between us and God.

Is that what you meant by "win the favor of God" ?

I wouldn't really put it that way...once we are saved, God doesn't see our sin anymore. Which is why we have the ability to coexist in Heaven with Him. Otherwise, He simply cannot be in the presence of sin.

God's favor is up to interpretation in your statement. Please expound. Thank you !

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 03-26-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I see what you COULD mean by this statement, so I would like to ask you to clarify that a little, just so I don't have to assume.

For Christians, trying NOT to sin helps us to live more fulfilling lives, by allowing God to be closer to us. Guilt and a lack of repentance can create a wall between us and God.

Is that what you meant by "win the favor of God" ?

I wouldn't really put it that way...once we are saved, God doesn't see our sin anymore. Which is why we have the ability to coexist in Heaven with Him. Otherwise, He simply cannot be in the presence of sin.

God's favor is up to interpretation in your statement. Please expound. Thank you !





I apologize for the confusion and I agree. I could have written that better. It would be better for me to say our motives are to please God and not man.

In context I was basically saying, good behavior is needed to coexist in peace in a community with others. The difference between the athiest and the Christian is what motivates us to good behavior. The reward for good behavior to an Athiest is to win the favor of man but to a Christian we are motivated to please God. I hope that makes a little more sense.

That's very judgemental.

Neither!

"Either make the tree good and it's fruit good or make the tree corrupt and it's fruit corrupt, for the tree is knows by it's fruit.

Oh, generation of vipers how can you being evil speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. A good man out of the good treasures of the heart brings forth good things, a bad man our of the bad treasures of the heart brings forth bad things."



There will be christians left behind, don't doubt that. If you become a chiristian, you have to forsake self. Your life is then GOD'S. Read 1 Corintians 6:8-10. Corinthians were both written TO THE CHURCH.





[This message has been edited by HellzShellz (edited 03-26-2005).]

Hellz, I am not sure who you were talking to regarding your statement about being judgemental, so I will not comment on it.

However, you seem to be saying that we must still "work our way into heaven" even after we have become saved. Is that what you're getting at ?

As far as Christians being left behind, I assume you are talking about after the Rapture, and if so, I have to tell you that you are mistaken.

Christians won't be left behind...it doesn't work like that. There will be people who convert immediately after the Rapture, because they then have reason to believe. They were told prior to the Rapture that it would happen, and they give their lives to Christ because the prophecy will have been fulfilled.

If what YOU say is true, then we all have to bust our butts trying to be better than the Christian next to us, because we are trying to earn our way into the Rapture...to avoid The Tribulation.

God doesn't command that we rely on our works, for ANYTHING relating to our faith.

To say so would be to nullify the entire concept of the Bible.

If I am misunderstanding you, please let me know...and feel free to clarify.

Sig, that is what I thought you were saying...thank you for clearing that up. I completely agree with you.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

.... It cannot be revoked. It's called a covenant...

Is it not true that, most Christians, believe just that very thing happened to the Jews? Is it not called "replacement Theology"? Hence the term "New Testament" as opposed to the "Old Testament"? Not to bash Christians... just curious.

quote:Originally posted by AnAsTaSiO:

First off, I respect Christianity very much.

Is it better to be a devout Christian and be a bad person? Or an atheist, who lives their life as a very decent person?



Love thy neighbour ,and you cant go wrong.

But, one who knows the truth and turns his back would be worse of then one who has not heard the truth and lives his life without hearing it,but you cant block your ears,

Going to church once a week and beg forgivness while you fuck your neighbours wife does not mean you are a good Christian.

Not beleiving in god is not a sin it's just that you have'nt heard the truth ,but at some point it will find you and you will question it ,and ignorance is no excuse, "A red light is still a red light even if you were not looking"

quote:Originally posted by Maccabee:

Is it not true that, most Christians, believe just that very thing happened to the Jews? Is it not called "replacement Theology"? Hence the term "New Testament" as opposed to the "Old Testament"? Not to bash Christians... just curious.

I think that is true for most Christians. They consider the New Covenant to be necessary for salvation, because the old one was abrogated. They get all excited over Jeremiah 31:30...

quote:Behold, days are coming -- the word of Hashem -- when I will seal a new covenant with the House of Israel and with the House of Judah: not like the covenant that I sealed with their forefathers on the day that I took hold of their hand to take them out of the land of Egypt, for they abrogated my covenant, although I became their Master -- the word of Hashem.Their deduction then, believing Jesus to be the Messiah, was that his actions and his death on the cross were the sacrifice to seal the new covenant. Paul of Tarsus, author of the book of Romans I quoted earlier, broke ranks with the Jewish members of the early Christian Church who kept Torah and the oral law and required its observance as a prerequisite for conversion. Paul's preaching was that this new covenant differed utterly from the previous ones and that the Law was something like training wheels making people aware of good and evil so that they might be prepared to be saved 'by faith' in acceptance of the new one. This formed the basis of displacement theology. What displacement theologists would like to explain away is how much of a stickler Jesus appeared to be for the Law in their own New Testament.

quote:Matthew 5:17,18

17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

And the reason why much of the early church considered Paul an apostate...

quote:Matthew 5:19

19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

[Edit: Sources: Artscroll Stone Tanakh and New International Version New Testament.]

[This message has been edited by Sephiroth (edited 03-27-2005).]

I wasn't speaking to you.

Um, YES there will be christians left behind. I'm sorry, But it's true. Read 1 Corinthians 6:8-10. It clearly says it. Dare you tell me God's word isn't what it is? I'm not mistaken. I didn't say you have to "Work" your way into heaven. You have to FORSAKE self, and allow your life to be GOD'S. It's dedication and a decision, of course you're gonna mess up. You ask for forgivness.

Let me ask you something. If Jesus returned while you were in the act of fornication, you can't really believe you'll meet him in the sky, can you? AT THAT PERCISE MOMENT. Get real. I personally wouldn't risk it either. I'm non-denominational, so the whole "workin' your way to heaven" offends me. My religion is God. I cut my hair, I wear make-up.

It is your personal relationship with God that counts, but is the Christian prayer not to be made more like Jesus? The unrighteous will not enter the Kingdom Of Heaven.



[This message has been edited by HellzShellz (edited 03-27-2005).]

^Agreed with regards to Christianity.

Shouldn't it be though that your expressed commitment to God's will (faith) is expressed through works (Mitzvot)? God does not expect that commitment to be perfect and your forgiveness is assured if you ask for it, but to reject the Law as irrelevent to a commitment of 'giving your life to God' doesn't seem right to me.

[This message has been edited by Sephiroth (edited 03-27-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by AnAsTaSiO:

So I'm assuming that you mean that a bad christian person is equal to a non believer who led a great life?

There is nothing wrong with your beliefs, thing is many christians feel that its their way or the hell highway.

P.S

I would consider myself a revised christian, so do not think i am trying to bash the religon.

No offense taken. But you gotta realize that nearly all religions say its their way or no way. But the answer is that if you are indeed a child of God (saved through Jesus), then you CAN theoretically live your life like Hitler if you so desired and still go to heaven. However you probablywont live very long...

quote:Originally posted by Sephiroth:

I think that is true for most Christians. They consider the New Covenant to be necessary for salvation, because the old one was abrogated. They get all excited over Jeremiah 31:30...

I'm, by no means, an expert on Christianity. But it has always intrigued me, at how they could possibly come by their interpretations (Jeremiah 31:30). I mean surely they don't believe that they are, in anyway, part of the “House of Israel and with the House of Judah” ?

quote:Originally posted by Sephiroth:

Their deduction then, believing Jesus to be the Messiah, was that his actions and his death on the cross were the sacrifice to seal the new covenant.

This is another baffler... I've never been able to figure out why they don't see that human sacrifice is against Torah.

quote:Originally posted by Sephiroth:

Paul of Tarsus, author of the book of Romans I quoted earlier, broke ranks with the Jewish members of the early Christian Church who kept Torah and the oral law and required its observance as a prerequisite for conversion. Paul's preaching was that this new covenant differed utterly from the previous ones and that the Law was something like training wheels making people aware of good and evil so that they might be prepared to be saved 'by faith' in acceptance of the new one. This formed the basis of displacement theology. What displacement theologists would like to explain away is how much of a stickler Jesus appeared to be for the Law in their own New Testament.

This brings up an interesting person I recently met. We were introduced through a friend of a friend (you know how those things go). In other words I don't associate in those circles. Hell, I didn't know those circles existed. Anyway this guy was wearing a kippah and spoke some Hebrew, so naturally I thought he was Jewish. Nope, nothin doin, this guy is a Christian, of a sorts I guess. But he calls Jesus by his Jewish name “Yeshua” or some shit. And he told me pretty much what you're sayin. Have you ever run across this type before?



[This message has been edited by Maccabee (edited 03-28-2005).]

Messainic Jew perhaps?

quote:Originally posted by SeussSmith:

Christians get into heaven based on faith, not works. That's the whole point of salvation and forgiveness. If someone gives their life to Christ, yet still sins and is repentant, then he goes to heaven.



After baptism in the blood of Christ, the spirit is given wholy to God...meaning you wouldn't be sinning any more if it were true as your life is no longer yours but Gods. Bad Christians!=saved. This is one of my logic problems with Christianity in the literal context...in the metaphorical context it works fine, but that's just a regression used to justify a logically failing system.

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

Messainic Jew perhaps?

I would say that all Christians are "Messianic" but, conversely, not all Jews. And as stated previously he is not Jewish.

Oh, I'm familiar with the messianics. They have varying levels of authenticity about them. Most Messianics have a quickly thrown together doctrine meant to attract Jews disatisfied with genuine Judaism. The only group that seems to enjoy any real approval among the actual Jewish community are the Netzarim (http://www.netzarim.co.il). They were started by this former baptist preacher who studied that critical break at the beginning of Christianity where it ceased to be Judaism and tried to turn back the clock. They deny the authenticity of the New Testament, seeing as it has been edited so many times, as a hellenistic invention and use only the Tanakh as scripture. They make the case for Jesus, a person whom they call Ribi Yehoshua ben Yosef ben David, on the basis of a semblage of very early Hebrew manuscripts to the book of Matthew and otherwise operate no differently than your average Yemeni Orthodox. It's just like some of the Chabad Lubavitchers consider their late Rebbe to be the Messiah, only the historical figure they're highlighting lived two millenia ago. I can see the attraction to that sort of thing, particularly where intermarriages occur, as a way to sorta sew up the community's wounds, and for non-Jews married to Jews as a way to hold on to the religious figure they loved. Still though, the really passionate Jewish anti-missionaries in places like Jews for Judaism (http://www.Jewsforjudaism.org) disapprove utterly of such groups and would rather that they not exist. I'm getting to be something of an expert on this, being the product of intermarriage myself: Ashkenazim on my mother's side and the family of Martin Luther on my father's side, and ne'er the twain shall meet. *bitter laugh*

I'm going to hell, so i guess i'll see all you good atheists and bad christians there, if there is a hell......

quote:Originally posted by Sephiroth:

I'm getting to be something of an expert on this, being the product of intermarriage myself: Ashkenazim on my mother's side and the family of Martin Luther on my father's side, and ne'er the twain shall meet. *bitter laugh*

Dinner at your house must make for interesting conversation, LOL. But fear not, my young Padawan, as both of my parents are Ashkenazim but the disagreements they have are "legion"... Oy!

Oh don't worry, divorce fixed the most obvious problem. Growing up spending half of my time with each parent caused quite another.

quote:Originally posted by Sephiroth:

Oh don't worry, divorce fixed the most obvious problem. Growing up spending half of my time with each parent caused quite another.

Divorce is sometimes the only solution (I'm not telling you anything you don't already know). Nevertheless, you seem to be a pretty stand up guy. Don't let your past get in the way of your future.

Regards

Mac

quote:Originally posted by AnAsTaSiO:

First off, I respect Christianity very much.

Is it better to be a devout Christian and be a bad person? Or an atheist, who lives their life as a very decent person?



Well, first - Hello, and it's good to see a serious question. I'll try to do justice with a sincere answer.

Christianity is a very broad subject, with inumerable hilosophies, denominations, and beliefs.

Now, in my opinion, it is impossible to be a 'bad person' and be a devout Christian. To be a devout Christian, one would have to follow Christ's words (Which again, are up for debate, due to translation and editing, but I think a couple things can be agreed on.) which include the "Two Greatest Commandments" being:

1. Love your God with all your heart.

2. Love your neighbor as yourself.

If you followed those two right there, I think it would be pretty hard to be a 'bad person'.

However, if one said they were a christian, and went to church on Sunday, etc. etc. but were prideful, about it and/or in other ways were a 'bad person', then I would say it a person is much better off as an Athiest.

In my own beliefs, and Athiest is generally more spiritually advanced than your church-going Christian. To quote my good friend Scott M. Peck Ph.D. from his book "The Different Drum" (a good read, highly recommended) There are four kinds of people, on a spiritual scale.

1. Is the person who just havent given it much thought, goes through life with no spiritual or religious denomination because he/she can't grasp the Quintessence, the Supersensual (Meaning "That which is above sense") or just that there is anything more than what he sees.

2. Is the church-going man. The "Sunday-Christian". (Or 'Sunday Pagan', Taoist, Jew, etc. etc.) The person that goes to church/attends rites, but not really for an actual spiritual benefit, but for the fact that they have to believe there is something more. It takes from them the fear of death. It's a comforting thought, and for many- and ego thing. There are more of these than in any other of these four groups.

3. Is the Athiest/Agnost. The person who says to himself "I see no reason to believe in God. There is no proof, and I have no time to dilly-dally in childish philosophies and beliefs. I have no need for comfort of an afterlife. I acknowledge I will one day die. And I accept that." etc. This person is light-years ahead of the "Sunday-Christian" in maturity. He copes with a reality. And he has the maturity to do so. I was in this group for around 6 years.

4. Is a very special, and very rare group of people. They are the Christians, the Taoists, the Pagans that believe not because they have to, not because they can't cope with a reality, but because they feel touched. Something they can't explain affects them, they know deep down within themselves that there is something more than they see, taste, smell, and touch. Often times these people will call themselves "Spiritual, but not Religious." Acknowledging their spiritual journey, but outside the confines of a specified dogma.

There is also a 3.5 group, more and more common these days. They feel something, much like goup 4, and they can't explain it. Often times these people will search for years and years to find something, the way I explained it when I was on this journey, is "I dont know what I'm looking for, but when I find it... I'll know." Little did I realize that 'finding it' for me, was only the beginning http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

In any case, I hope this helped.

Best Wishes,



-Rusticus

aka

Uncle Rusty

the question is do you believe in god? if not then youre an atheist, problem solved.

quote:Originally posted by Maccabee:

Divorce is sometimes the only solution (I'm not telling you anything you don't already know). Nevertheless, you seem to be a pretty stand up guy. Don't let your past get in the way of your future.

Regards

MacThanks. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) You're pretty cool yourself.

quote:Originally posted by Rusticus:

Often times these people will search for years and years to find something, the way I explained it when I was on this journey, is "I dont know what I'm looking for, but when I find it... I'll know." Little did I realize that 'finding it' for me, was only the beginning http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

In any case, I hope this helped.

Best Wishes,



-Rusticus

aka

Uncle Rusty

Wow, very well said. I've never seen this any simpler. Just recently my life has changed, and I've taken a different aproach. I grew up in an orthodox belief SYSTEM and felt that religion was not the answer. Now I'm in a much better understanding, eventhough I've never gone through an atheist stage in my life. I think I jumped from 2 to 4. I belive that faith should not be put into a religion but into that which is greater.

Great words Rusticus.

quote:Originally posted by Maccabee:

Is it not true that, most Christians, believe just that very thing happened to the Jews? Is it not called "replacement Theology"? Hence the term "New Testament" as opposed to the "Old Testament"? Not to bash Christians... just curious.



I am sorry to say that you have officially lost me.

I haven't the foggiest idea what you are referring to.

This may be a belief in some society's or religion's, but it certainly isn't one held by Christians.

The purpose of the New Testament was to explain the necessity of humanity for salvation, which came to us by God in the form of Christ.

It is a transition from Law to Love.

That is not a breaking of a covenant, it is a fulfillment of prophecy.

I hope I have cleared that up for you. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by dirkman:

Love thy neighbour ,and you cant go wrong.

But, one who knows the truth and turns his back would be worse of then one who has not heard the truth and lives his life without hearing it,but you cant block your ears,

Going to church once a week and beg forgivness while you fuck your neighbours wife does not mean you are a good Christian.

Not beleiving in god is not a sin it's just that you have'nt heard the truth ,but at some point it will find you and you will question it ,and ignorance is no excuse, "A red light is still a red light even if you were not looking"

Jesus says not one man will go his entire life without being given a chance...in some form or another, all men will understand that there is a creator in some capacity.

From there, it is up to them to decide whether they want to heed the call.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

I wasn't speaking to you.

Um, YES there will be christians left behind. I'm sorry, But it's true. Read 1 Corinthians 6:8-10. It clearly says it. Dare you tell me God's word isn't what it is? I'm not mistaken. I didn't say you have to "Work" your way into heaven. You have to FORSAKE self, and allow your life to be GOD'S. It's dedication and a decision, of course you're gonna mess up. You ask for forgivness.

Let me ask you something. If Jesus returned while you were in the act of fornication, you can't really believe you'll meet him in the sky, can you? AT THAT PERCISE MOMENT. Get real. I personally wouldn't risk it either. I'm non-denominational, so the whole "workin' your way to heaven" offends me. My religion is God. I cut my hair, I wear make-up.

It is your personal relationship with God that counts, but is the Christian prayer not to be made more like Jesus? The unrighteous will not enter the Kingdom Of Heaven.





I hope you aren't being nasty, because it isn't warranted (in response to "I wasn't talking to you."). I hope you were just clarifying...

And now I must address the painfully flawed perception you have of the rapture: if we are sinning when Christ returns for us, we don't get to go with Him in the rapture.

Are you SERIOUS ?!!

Then you don't truly believe in the salvation He provided for us when he died on the cross !!

Fornication is sin, and ALL OF IT IS FORGIVEN when we give our lives to Christ. That salvation is not conditional upon our behavior ! That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

1 Corinthians 6:8-10 - "Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers. 9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

How does this apply to Christians ?

Paul was speaking to the church of Corinth SPECIFICALLY, because there were some very abhorrent things going on in their city.

These acts of "fornication", as you put it, refer to PAGANS, not Christians.

You can pick and choose all the verses you want to try and support your thwarted views, but you will not be any more right.

You must take the entire purpose of each teaching into context, and not derive from it the very thing you hope to prove.

That teaching by Paul has nothing to do with the rapture, Christians, and their rights to the kingdom of heaven.

If that were the case, Christ's death was for nothing, as I have already said.

We are to be held blameless...blemish free, once we give our hearts to Christ. Does that mean we won't sin ever again ? CERTAINLY NOT ! It means that we will no longer be judged for them. We try not to sin, because it makes us miserable, not because we fear judgement, or being left behind in the rapture.

THERE WILL BE NO CHRISTIANS LEFT BEHIND.

You are going to have to come up with something better than 1 Corinth. 6 to change my mind.

It seems that you do not have a clear perception of the word of God, and for you to be quoting it puts you in grave danger, friend.

Matthew 18:6 - "But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea."

We ARE righteous, under the blood of Christ. No matter if we are sinning or not when He returns, we go back with Him.

I completely agree with you that it isn't about works.

I also agree that our personal relationship with God is what is most important.

I don't see how you go wrong after that...the Christians will be caught up in the rapture, and many people will convert once this happens, seeing it as a sign.

That is where the end times Christians come from.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

...It is a transition from Law to Love.

That is not a breaking of a covenant, it is a fulfillment of prophecy...



First, let me just say, that I respect your gumption. You really do stick to your guns and I like that. However, that does not mean that I agree with you. If I were to sign a contract with you, and later on changed it (in violation of said contract & against your consent) in favor of someone else. That is called - welshing... abrogation if you will. That is NOT a “transition from Law to Love” that, my friend, is a breech of contract. And, of course, that action requires that The Big Guy upstairs, lie about something. You can use all the flowery rhetoric you like, but the fact remains that Christians really believe this. Jewish persistence, in the belief, that the original contract is still in effect, is the primary source of ALL western Antisemitism. And believe it or not, is much the same reason, that the Muslims hate us (we would not accept their god either). I like Evangelical Christians, very much, they are decent and honorable people. But please don't preach to me... I know the Law.

quote:Originally posted by Maccabee:

Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

...It is a transition from Law to Love.

That is not a breaking of a covenant, it is a fulfillment of prophecy...



First, let me just say, that I respect your gumption. You really do stick to your guns and I like that. However, that does not mean that I agree with you. If I were to sign a contract with you, and later on changed it (in violation of said contract & against your consent) in favor of someone else. That is called - welshing... abrogation if you will. That is NOT a “transition from Law to Love” that, my friend, is a breech of contract. And, of course, that action requires that The Big Guy upstairs, lie about something. You can use all the flowery rhetoric you like, but the fact remains that Christians really believe this. Jewish persistence, in the belief, that the original contract is still in effect, is the primary source of ALL western Antisemitism. And believe it or not, is much the same reason, that the Muslims hate us (we would not accept their god either). I like Evangelical Christians, very much, they are decent and honorable people. But please don't preach to me... I know the Law.



it is not a breech of contract, but an addendum (sp?) if you will. The "original contract" is still in effect for the Jews. The "addendum" is to include non-Jews and a fullfillment of the original also.

You said, "against your consent". It is an allowment of consent.. you have the "freewill" to consent or not.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

...it is not a breech of contract, but an addendum (sp?) if you will.

Nice... but no cigar. However, you did bring a smile to my face. Replacement theologians believe much differently, which is why the existence of Israel is such an affront to many Christians (Evangelicals are the exception) and Muslims. As it seems to negate the replacement theology they have in place.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

The "original contract" is still in effect for the Jews. The "addendum" is to include non-Jews and a fullfillment of the original also.

That is an interesting nuance... please elaborate.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

You said, "against your consent". It is an allowment of consent.. you have the "freewill" to consent or not.

Your position is irrelevant, as the original contract was to remain in place irrespective of the parties consent. Gen 17:7 “I will maintain My covenant between Me and you, and your offspring to come, as an everlasting covenant throughout the ages....”

Xtreem - I don't even think it was an addendum !

It was fulfillment.

It was prophetic that Christ would offer the ultimate sacrifice, nullifying our need to offer up animal sacrifices to atone for our sins.

When God put in place the Law of Moses, He knew that the Law of Christ would take over where the Law of Moses left off.

Don't you agree ?

quote:Originally posted by Maccabee:



First, let me just say, that I respect your gumption. You really do stick to your guns and I like that. However, that does not mean that I agree with you. If I were to sign a contract with you, and later on changed it (in violation of said contract & against your consent) in favor of someone else. That is called - welshing... abrogation if you will. That is NOT a “transition from Law to Love” that, my friend, is a breech of contract. And, of course, that action requires that The Big Guy upstairs, lie about something. You can use all the flowery rhetoric you like, but the fact remains that Christians really believe this. Jewish persistence, in the belief, that the original contract is still in effect, is the primary source of ALL western Antisemitism. And believe it or not, is much the same reason, that the Muslims hate us (we would not accept their god either). I like Evangelical Christians, very much, they are decent and honorable people. But please don't preach to me... I know the Law.

I don't expect you to agree with me.

We are here to debate, no ? *smiles*

God did not change His covenant with His people. A prophecy was given that Christ would come to abolish the Law of Moses, and he did.

There was no breach of contract.

I'm not preaching at you, either.

I'm tellin' it like it is, doll.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 04-04-2005).]

To understand the relevance of the Mosaic law for Christians, please refer to the following passage of Scripture from the book of Hebrews. The author of Hebrews wrote to Jewish Christians; a people who at one time lived their lives under the laws of Moses. The author of Hebrews looks at the various facets of the Mosaic covenant and compares them to the new dispensation (house rules) that govern our relationship with Jesus, the Christ and Messiah. Note as you read the following Scripture from Hebrews that Jesus is our high priest and that he entered the Holy of Holies with His own blood. When a Jewish man was selected to serve as the high priest, he had to first offer a sacrifice for his own sins. In other words, he had to first deal with his own sin before he could represent Israel and intercede on their behalf (sacrificing for their sins).

"11When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here,[b] he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not manmade, that is to say, not a part of this creation. 12He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. 13The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are ******dly clean. 14How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[c] so that we may serve the living God!

15For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance–now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

16In the case of a will,[d] it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. 19When Moses had proclaimed every commandment of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. 20He said, “This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep.”[e] 21In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

23It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24For Christ did not enter a manmade sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence. 25Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him." Hebrews 9:11-28

Jesus Christ is our high priest and since he is sitting at the right hand of God the Father, His priesthood is still in effect; thus we living today are no longer under the laws of Moses. To learn more about the sacrifices performed under the Mosaic covenant, read Leviticus 16 and then read Hebrews chapter 9 & 10. We are so blessed to be under the dispensation of grace.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9



[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 04-04-2005).]

PROPHECY

God's love for us and His offer of salvation is beautifully revealed in the messianic prophecies that span thousands of years of human history. We can see His love in Genesis 3:15 when God told Satan after the temptation and sin of Adam and Eve, "...I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."

This prophecy not only informed Satan of his downfall, but it also placed in the heart of Eve the promise of a savior out of her womb who would defeat Satan.

Isaiah 7:14 - "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel."

FULFILLMENT

Luke 1:26 - "Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin's name was Mary."

Luke 1:30 - "Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb, and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David...."

Matthew 5:17 - "Think not that I have come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I have not come to destroy, but to FULFILL.” (Jesus speaking)

Whenever Matthew uses the word “fulfill”, he does not necessarily mean “to obey”. He means, “to come into pass” or to “do something that was prophesied”. Jesus came to do something, and that is bring out those who are under the law and place them under grace. Read Romans, Chapters 3-11; Paul discusses this topic very well.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 04-04-2005).]

It just dawned on me... this debate is stupid. We will never agree on a single issue. It's been this way for two thousand years, and our conversation here won't change a thing. However, just for shits & giggles, I will point out a few things.

1.)Is there peace on earth?

2.)Is there good will towards men?

3.)Is the capitol of the world in Jerusalem?

4.)Is Jesus reigning in Israel right now, or for that matter, any Jewish King?

5.)Is there a new Temple?

If the answer to ANY of these questions, is no... well then there can be no (christian) messiah. Oh and by the way your boy did not fulfill everything you claim for him – hence the need for a second coming. So the prophecy's can hardly be in “fulfillment.”

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I'm tellin' it like it is, doll.

No problemo... sweet cheeks.



[This message has been edited by Maccabee (edited 04-04-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Xtreem - I don't even think it was an addendum !

It was fulfillment.

It was prophetic that Christ would offer the ultimate sacrifice, nullifying our need to offer up animal sacrifices to atone for our sins.

When God put in place the Law of Moses, He knew that the Law of Christ would take over where the Law of Moses left off.

Don't you agree ?



Yes, i agree. I was trying to make the point from Maccabee's (type of) words, which is why i added "if you will". Even though it is prophecy fulfilled, it is, in a matter of speaking, an addendum that includes us Gentiles.

All of the arguements in this forum, boil down to 3 basic things, and each of these tend to blur amongst each other:

1. the acceptance/rejection of scripture (noah's ark, creation v. accident, Divinity of Jesus as the Christ v. jesus was just a swell guy, etc.)



2. God's for-knowledge, freewill, God's Justness

3. doctrine i.e. 'literal or not' interpretation, authenticity of the Bible, legitimacy of translations

In this case, it is all 3 (or atleast has the potential to be). As the debate as transpired, it has really been about #1 and #3, but it is also (as you have pointed out) #2.

Maccabee, it seems has been 'keeping' it at 1 and 3, which leads me to think that he has some Jewish background ... (i just checked what "Ashkenazim" is. Yup, if what he said is true, he does have some background... which also maybe explains what he meant about 'knowing the Law').~~~sorry, just analyzing.

Anyway, to get back to train of thought, you said, "When God put in place the Law of Moses, He knew that the Law of Christ would take over where the Law of Moses left off.".

This is true, God did know, but humans did not know this until Jesus... and many Jews do not know this (meaning, knowing Jesus as the Christ), so the still live under the Law. Which is the partial reason for the Second Coming, when God's people (the Jews) will understand that they are saved by Grace and not by upholding the Law.

quote:Originally posted by AnAsTaSiO:

First off, I respect Christianity very much.

Is it better to be a devout Christian and be a bad person? Or an atheist, who lives their life as a very decent person?



The latter. I don't think God enjoys and rewards the hypocrite. I remember reading that somewhere.

quote:Originally posted by AnAsTaSiO:

First off, I respect Christianity very much.

Respecting ignorant people and child molestors.

Let me tell you something, if God exists, he doesn't care if you're a scientologist, a muslim (OH GOD THEY'RE TERRORISTS!!!), buddist, taoist, atheist, agonistic, pagan, et cetra..

To summarize the Bible's bullshit really shortly: "To truely be without sin, don't give anyone else a hard time and try to make their lives easier."

Morality summed up into one line. Those old jewish laws and dumb shit don't apply anymore in this new age. Be nice to other people and you're without sin.

Thats your answer.

quote:Originally posted by Omni-Max:

Respecting ignorant people and child molestors.



How are we ignorant? We're all child molestors? Just so you know, that was concentrated mostly in Catholicism, not the Protestant sects.

quote:Originally posted by Omni-Max:

Respecting ignorant people and child molestors.

Let me tell you something, if God exists, he doesn't care if you're a scientologist, a muslim (OH GOD THEY'RE TERRORISTS!!!), buddist, taoist, atheist, agonistic, pagan, et cetra..

To summarize the Bible's bullshit really shortly: "To truely be without sin, don't give anyone else a hard time and try to make their lives easier."

Morality summed up into one line. Those old jewish laws and dumb shit don't apply anymore in this new age. Be nice to other people and you're without sin.

Thats your answer.



Excuse me ?

Whose a child molester ?

You must be talking about the Catholic priests, in your blinding ignorance.

How can you possibly clump ALL Christians together, when they can't even do that THEMSELVES ?

You're an idiot.

I know that wasn't very Christian of me, but your opinion is worthless.

It angers me greatly that stupidity of this magnitude is what is keeping people from their God...you actually believe this crap you spew, don't you ?

Let me summarize the Bible FOR YOU, since I am a Christian: "LOVE ONE ANOTHER. Amen."

Being nice has not a shred to do with salvation through Christ.

That's what makes you a Christian...not how well you treat your neighbor.

Ephesians 5:1-18 Supports it. Corinthians was written to the CHURCH!! I agree with that. Read all of this before you get defensive, pull out your bible, look it up for yourself and read what it says. It is what it says.

Be you therefore followers of God as dear children; And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us, and has given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becomming saints; (Romans 6:16) Neither filthiness, nor foolish talkin, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. (Romans 1:28) For this you know, that no whore-monger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man decieve you with vain words: For because of these things comes the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not you therefore partakers with them. For you were sometimes darkness, but now you are light in the Lord" Walk as children of light: (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif) Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. (Romans 12:2) And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. (Romans 6:21) For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: For whosoever does manifest is light: Wherefor he says, Awake you that sleep, and arise from the dead, and Chrsit shall give you light. (Is 26:19; 60:1) See then that you walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, Redeeming the time, because the days are evil, Wherefor be you not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is. And be not drunk with win, wherein is excess; but be filled with the spirit;"

It was for clarification, but you've struck a nerve. Not ONCE did I say what Jesus did on the cross wasn't enough to cover my sins! Matthew 2:28 tells us that merely thinking thoughts of sin is a sin of the heart, which makes it a sin, no better than actually doing it.

1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you; but you are washed, but you are sanctified, but you are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the spirit of our God.

If that were to those that do not woriship God then he wouldn't have called them saved, and justified. That is to the people of God.

Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: For either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. You CANNOT serve God and mammon.

Matthew 12:33-35

Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt; for the tree is known by it's fruit. O generation of vipers how can you, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. A good man out of the good treasure of the heart brings forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things.

Revelation 3:15-16

I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot: I would you wert cold or hot. So then because you are luke-warm, and neither cold nor hot, I will SPUE you out of my mouth.

Dare to try agian?

Look, Digital, I love you through Christ, but you shouldn't try to go off of what you hear, you should turn to your bible before you speak. I read my bible daily, I know it well. Granted I was an atheist, but that matters not. I fear God, insomuch that I will not add or take anything from his word. I will not try to tell someone what he REALLY meant when His word tells us WHAT HE MEANS.



[This message has been edited by HellzShellz (edited 04-09-2005).]

If you keep telling these people it's ok to be luke-warm you'll lead them into hell. Becareful of what you say.

[This message has been edited by HellzShellz (edited 04-09-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

Well considering both would lead you to the same place, I'm going to call that a push.

Sounds like a very evil God to me.

"Don't believe in me so burn in hell even if you are a deccent person"

Another thing, If God says it's wrong for one group of people to do it, what makes you think he'd say it's ok for another group of people to do it. Look in our nation, we have CHILDREN bringing more children into the world, without being married. This is the most corrupt nation. and the most God fearing, as well.

Yes, when Jesus comes back there will be those who will convert, namely the Jews, for the Jews are God's chosen people. 144,000 from 12 tribes will rise, and become your christians.

[This message has been edited by HellzShellz (edited 04-09-2005).]