Has Christianity had more of a postive or negative affect on civilization.

Positive. Even though I am agnostic, I believe that the earlier religions were simply ridiculous, and served no purpose at all. That being said, Christianity did bring some security to the world when it was extreamly unstable. It was created to take control, yet in the modren age, the pope has done very little to maintain it. I have done immence studies of world war one and two history, and never once have I come across a section about what the pope was doing during those times.

My point is, I think that with out it, the uneducated panicy masses would fear death greatly, and lose alot of their morals.

Christianity has played a major role in civilization since it was first created more then 2,000 years ago. Although, it is true that it brought stablity to an ailing world. It also brought war, intolerance, and and a lack of certain freedoms.

I feel that religon in general is necessary, not because it will let you go to heaven, but rather the morals it teaches. In it's purest form religon is excellent, however it's purest form is never truly apparent.

Helped. Christianity carried Europe through the Dark Ages. Christianity has provided the world with some of it's greatest thinkers(St. Thomas Aquinas). Christianity has provided help and aid to billions and billions of people throughout it's history.

There have been obvious bumps along the way, but for the most part christianity has played a positive role in the history of the world.

Honestly, I do not agree with some of christianity's beliefts. However, the world would be a scary place without it. It has always been a cushion in which man can rest on and have faith in. Although, many wars were fought in its name. It can also be said that many wars were avoided in its name. So, we must take the good with the bad.

You always here about these people that god has saved and that how christianity has helped many people when they werent feeling to well. And thats good and all. But if you put it up to the numbers dead because of christianity and the numbers that have been saved over it than it has easily killed more than its saved.

Care to provide a link to where I could find those numbers?

Actually i dont no the numbers but from what ive been taught hundreds of thousand died during the crusades and i seriously doubt that many people have been saved by god.

But i did try to find the numbers of how many people died and i did come across this that looks quite interesting.

http://www.creationtheory.org/BiblicalMorality/Crusades.shtml

It's not how many God has saved, it's how many the church has saved. The church(all christian sects) have helped and saved billions of people.

Christianity has helped more than they have hurt.

I at least have a bit of proof that the crusades killed thousands may i have the proof of the church saving people.

http://www.csoa.org/Charity1.htm

Habitat for Humanity is Christian based

As is the christian children's fund.

Salvation Army is also.

There is a vast vast multitude of christian relief agencies that are helping out and saving lives all around the world.

I think your head would have to be lodged in your lower intestine to think Christianity has hurt the world more than it has helped. To those who do not possess the mental capabilities to distinguish harmful actions from beneficial ones, Christianity provides them a compass that they cannot craft on their own. For those who do have that capability, Christianity provides answers to the questions raised by the compass...whether or not they are right, they still satisfy the mind for a good deal of people.

Giving people a moral compass and often satisfying answers is helpful because it keeps people content and happy enough to not go into a barbaric rape-fest of stupidity. I'm not saying Christianity is the only thing that helps people out in this sense...it's not even the biggest one...but that's what this thread is about right now. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

I think that it is sorta like Santa Clause, It's good to have when your little to teach you to do good things, but when you grow up you realise its a bunch of BS and it was all created, those who still believe in it simply don't look at the overwhelming facts agianst it.

quote:Originally posted by Islanders Arnt Crazy:

I think that it is sorta like Santa Clause, It's good to have when your little to teach you to do good things, but when you grow up you realise its a bunch of BS and it was all created, those who still believe in it simply don't look at the overwhelming facts agianst it.

overwhelming facts?

do you mean to say that even the ones that study it professionally are overlooking these "facts"?

Yep, prove god is real, and i'll believe in it, I prove he is not, and you still would, who is ignorant?

No need to repeat myself.

Ok then, prove yourself???

quote:Originally posted by Islanders Arnt Crazy:

Yep, prove god is real, and i'll believe in it, I prove he is not, and you still would, who is ignorant?

No need to repeat myself.

sorry in advance.. this is kinda long

where have you proven he is not... in fact you said, "I think that it is sorta like Santa Clause".

First off, have you read the Bible? If so, what is the thread of continuity that runs through the Bible -- the consistent theme from the OT through the NT? One passage in the 24th chapter of Luke will give you a hint... and i dont usually give such straight forward hints.

I can not prove to you that God exists. Only God can do that- if it is His Will, and only in His time. But i can try to give you proofs, or evidences that supports that the Bible is His Word:

-----------------------------------------

"A hidden burial chamber, dating to the 1st century, was discovered in 1990 two miles from the Temple Mount. One bore the bones of a man in his 60's, with the inscription "yehosef bar Qayafa" --meaning "Joseph, son of Caiaphas." Experts believe this was Caiaphas, the high priest of Jerusalem, who was involved in the arrest of Jesus, interrogated Him, and handed Him over to Pontius Pilate for execution.

A few decades earlier, excavations at Caesarea Maritama, the ancient seat of Roman government in Judea, uncovered a stone slab whose complete inscription may have read, "Pontius Pilate, the prefect of Judea, has dedicated to the people of Caesarea a temple in honor of Tiberius."

The discovery is truly significant, establishing that the man depicted in the Gospels as Judea's Roman governor had the authority ascribed to him by the Gospel writers. Jeffery L. Sheler, "Is the Bible True?" Reader's Digest, June 2000

Also from that same article: "In extraordinary ways, modern archeology is affirming the historical core of the Old and New Testaments, supporting key portions of crucial biblical stories."

-------------------------------------------

"Following the 1993 discovery in Israel of a stone containing the inscriptions "House of David" and "King of Israel," Time magazine stated, "This writing-- dated to the 9th century B.C., only a century after David's reign-- described a victory by a neighboring king over the Israelites... The skeptics' claim that David never existed is now hard to defend." Time, December 18, 1995

-----------------------------------------

Here, Luke is building a case for honesty:

Luk 1:2 even as those who from the beginning delivered to us, becoming eye-witnesses and ministers of the Word,

Luk 1:3 it seemed good to me also, following all things accurately from the very first, to write to you in order, most excellent Theophilus,

Luk 1:4 so that you might know the certainty of those things in which you have been instructed.

"Given the large portion of the N.T. written by Luke, it's extremely significant that Luke has been established to be a scrupulously accurate historian, even in the smallest details. One prominent archaeologist carefully examined Luke's references to 32 countries, 54 cities and 9 islands, , finding not a single mistake." John McRay

-------------------------------------------

And just for the sake of a few of the arguements that frequent this forum...

"i'm a good person, God isn't fair if he sends me to Hell and lets a christian murderer into Heaven"..

or words to those affects:

A Christian, by himself, isnt good. Jesus said that only God is good. The only "goodness," or righteousness, that the believer has comes from Christ (2 Cor 5:21 ; Phil 3:9). The Bible tells us that, without Christ, man is corrupt and filthy; "there is none that does good, no, not one" (Psalm 14:3)

---------------------------------------------

here is a website that i just found.. well maybe not just found.. it looks familiar, but i just found it when i searched for information on a couple of quotes i was going to use.. the first one i deleted because i found out some terribly misleading information about it. Misleading is an understatement, if Christians used it and knew the falseness, then those christians should be flogged... i will give them the benifit of the doubt though, it may have been a mistake.

The second quote, although it did seem to hold water, i deleted because it made more sense used in context of the first..

anyway, here is that site, and i havent looked at it thouroughly, so if it is bad info, im sorry and you have my permission to slap my wrist http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

http://www.evolution-facts.org/

of interesting note, read Chapter 4 50-56. (sorry i got sidetracked and started checking out the site alittle bit) It is: Next we shall consider EVIDENCE FROM CIVILIZATION that the earth is quite young

Ok, back to work..

------------------------------------------

Not that prophecies are not great but

if the Bible is true, then this passage (from before Jesus was crucified) is very interesting:

Mark 8:34 And calling near the crowd with His disciples, He said to them, Whoever will come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me.

---------------------------------------------

Time to get sidetracked again...

Mark 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceeds evil thoghts, adulteries, fornications, murders,

Charles Spurgeon wrote: "Now, if you have your hearts broken up by the Law, you will find the heart is more deceitful than the devil...."

It got me thinking about something said in TOTSE: "the only reason people beleive in God is that they are afraid of death"

or words to that affect.

I've known that this is not the case for me, but i've never quite known how to answer it.

The answer is: since I believe in God, and His Law (specifically the Ten Commandments- because i am not Jewish and live under the New Covenant) is a "mirror" to see that i can not live a good life (by God's standard) unto myself, no matter how hard i try. Because of this, i need the Salvation, paid for by the Christ who is Jesus.



------------------

ok, thats enough for now. If you have any gripes, questions, or points to make (this includes anyone) i'll try to give good and honest responses (with God's help)

Edit: Added the words "Chapter 4" to the reference website, reguarding one of my sidetracks... and added bolding tags to it

[This message has been edited by xtreem5150ahm (edited 03-27-2005).]

I wonder why it's automatically accepted here that saving people's lives automatically equates being positive for civilization.

quote:Originally posted by Fai1safe:

Actually i dont no the numbers but from what ive been taught hundreds of thousand died during the crusades and i seriously doubt that many people have been saved by god.

But i did try to find the numbers of how many people died and i did come across this that looks quite interesting.

http://www.creationtheory.org/BiblicalMorality/Crusades.shtml

Ummm...Christianity encompasses the majority of the world's religion.

You think a few thousand dying in the Crusades, which was perpetrated by MAN in the name of Christianity, not because of Christianity itself, far outnumbers the amount of people who have been delivered from their sin ?

That just doesn't make any sense.

quote:Originally posted by Fai1safe:

http://www.creationtheory.org/BiblicalMorality/Crusades.shtml

Right off the bat Christians with conviction are deemed "fundamentalists", and I didn't have to read any more after that.

I can't believe you can read something with so much bias, and consider it as truth.

I am a Christian, and know a LOT of Christians, and none of us wants to see anyone die - for ANY reason.

quote:Originally posted by Islanders Arnt Crazy:

Yep, prove god is real, and i'll believe in it, I prove he is not, and you still would, who is ignorant?

No need to repeat myself.

You haven't proven God isn't real...and you never will.

Because He is.

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

I wonder why it's automatically accepted here that saving people's lives automatically equates being positive for civilization.



You support euthanasia ?

*lol*

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Right off the bat Christians with conviction are deemed "fundamentalists", and I didn't have to read any more after that.

I can't believe you can read something with so much bias, and consider it as truth.

I am a Christian, and know a LOT of Christians, and none of us wants to see anyone die - for ANY reason.

I think mabye you should go back and read the whole thing. No were does it say that christians wish to kill people but that christianity isnt helping. Plus i never said that i thought that what they said was 100% correct, i just said that i saw it as i was searching for something and it looked interesting.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Ummm...Christianity encompasses the majority of the world's religion.

You think a few thousand dying in the Crusades, which was perpetrated by MAN in the name of Christianity, not because of Christianity itself, far outnumbers the amount of people who have been delivered from their sin ?

That just doesn't make any sense.

I thiught it was just under a third of the world... Anyway i didnt realise that every person that is christian has gone through a tramatic event and that there belif in god has saved them. And also Hundreds of thousands to millions died in those one set of events.

quote:which was perpetrated by MAN in the name of Christianity, not because of Christianity itself,

Your saying that what christian leaders say and do doesnt represent christianity. It was because of christianity because if christianity didnt exist then the crusades would not have happened.

Ok, firstly, going back and picking out words like "think" proves how desprate you are to try to prove your baseless point. He isn't real, until you can prove he is. Just like god. End of discussion. If you assume something is real without any proof of it, then you can assume that I am god, no proof I am, no proof im not. Also, just like to point out that if christianity is a faith, not a religion, wouldn't that be saying that it is impossible to prove god is real, and if we did, you wouldn't believe us anyways?

He isn't real, suck it up!

One last thing, a peer of mine in school, told me I was going to hell fornot believe in god, since when did god give his followers the power to send others to hell? You cultists make me sick.

Happy easter!

"But the Crusades, waaa waaa waaa."

Shut the fuck up about the Crusades. Athiesm has caused more destruction and death than Christianity. Stalin's Russia, Mao's China, Minh's Viet Nam.

Nearly every major faith has had politicians and leaders abuse and use that faith to facilitate a grander scheme.

The Crusades waa waa, the Vatican waa waa, Fundamentalist President waa waa, shut the fuck up.

quote:Originally posted by Islanders Arnt Crazy:

One last thing, a peer of mine in school, told me I was going to hell fornot believe in god, since when did god give his followers the power to send others to hell? You cultists make me sick.

Happy easter!

Lmao To a Christian not believing is a one way ticket to hell. They're not sending you there God is... Not that I believe that bullshit but just thought I'd correct you http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) But yes, Happy Easter.

Christianity has done both it has lead to positive social reforms and stuff but the evangelical part has hurt the owrld in the sense that races were whiped out and destroyed because they didnt view the world as christians did like Native Americans, Aztecs, Mayans...... Also many other atrocities have been commited in the name of god like slavery because ppl said Africans had no soul so it was ok to enslave them so i think it has done its fair share of both

To dumb down my beliefs for you retards out there, its simple, just so you can't rip apart every word that I say, I'll use plain english.

God, not real.

I do not believe in it.

I live a perfectly happy and full life.

Give it a try.

Less demanding, more freedom.

Sleep in on sundays.

Why do you associate God with religion? They aren't mutually exclusive as some people want you to think(and as you think).

You can have god without the presence of religion.

Why would you want to?

What’s there to gain other than the illusion of a "god" and that feeling that when you die you won't just stop being? (A relief in my books.)

self-satisfaction

quote:Originally posted by OwningCampbellsport:



Just wanted to say hello to a neighbor... i live in kiel

quote:Originally posted by Islanders Arnt Crazy:

To dumb down my beliefs for you retards out there, its simple, just so you can't rip apart every word that I say, I'll use plain english.

God, not real.

I do not believe in it.

I live a perfectly happy and full life.

Give it a try.

Less demanding, more freedom.

Sleep in on sundays.

I'm glad you dumbed it down for me, thank you. Please dont get me wrong, i am not trying to rip you or your words, just pointing out that you are saying that Christians are ignorantly following a Faith, or rather, the faith that God is real and that His Son died for our sins (and that all we have to do to receive salvation, is repent and believe). But you also said that if you gave proof, we would still ignorantly believe. The thing is, you have not given one little bit of proof, but there are many proofs (evidences) that the Word of God is real. Whether you accept them is totally up to you. No human can force you, and God will not force you.

anyway, you said, "God, not real.

I do not believe in it."

A persons belief in God is not what makes God real or not real. Only His existance or non-existance makes God real or not.

You also said that you were agnostic. How can you be agnostic, but know that God is not real.

OK, this next part is alittle bit speculation, and i'm not going to look it up... just food for thought:

You said, "since when did god give his followers the power to send others to hell? You cultists make me sick.".

Jesus did tell His disciples "what ever is bound on earth, will be bound in Heaven, and what ever is loosed, will be loosed in Heaven". I realize what is said here is about forgiveness between persons, but the flip side of this would be cursing.

But i would bet dollars to donuts that your peer in school was not cursing you, but rather warning you. As Campbellsport pointed out, "To a Christian not believing is a one way ticket to hell".



I'm just curious why you said, "What’s there to gain other than the illusion of a "god" and that feeling that when you die you won't just stop being? (A relief in my books.).

But before that you said that "I live a perfectly happy and full life."

Why would you say "a relief.." when you have a perfectly happy life.

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

I wonder why it's automatically accepted here that saving people's lives automatically equates being positive for civilization.

Meh, I don't place any value on life itself...I more think Christianity beneficial because it raises the quality of life for people too frightened of death to accept it (once again though, I'm just talking of the chimps...not everyone).

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

...You can have god without the presence of religion.

I disagree. I don't associate the two together...but can you cite one example of a believer in any god that doesn't show atleast minor reverence? Hell, calling it a 'god' is reverence enough for one to conclude there is religion behind it.

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

...but can you cite one example of a believer in any god that doesn't show atleast minor reverence?

I hope you are meaning reverence to religion.

I believe that the shortest complete sentence that uses the same word repeatedly is:

Buffalo buffalo, buffalo Buffalo buffalo.

So my question to you, and more importantly, hopefully an answer as well is; is this a complete sentence?:

Adam, Adam.

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

I disagree. I don't associate the two together...but can you cite one example of a believer in any god that doesn't show atleast minor reverence? Hell, calling it a 'god' is reverence enough for one to conclude there is religion behind it.



I don't know. It's not like there is an organization for people who are deists, that'd sort of be counter productive. I haven't been to church in years. I don't pray. I believe in a God. I don't pretend to know how that god functions or what his intentions were/are. I'm a prime example, and I'm sure there are plenty more.

Also, calling someone God is not a religious device, it can be, but in this sense it isn't. Intention is key. </semantics>

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

"But the Crusades, waaa waaa waaa."

Shut the fuck up about the Crusades. Athiesm has caused more destruction and death than Christianity. Stalin's Russia, Mao's China, Minh's Viet Nam.

Nearly every major faith has had politicians and leaders abuse and use that faith to facilitate a grander scheme.

The Crusades waa waa, the Vatican waa waa, Fundamentalist President waa waa, shut the fuck up.

Read the title dick. If it was named "Has Athiesm hurt or helped civilization more?" Than i would agree and say it hasnt helped but it isnt about athiesm so YOU shut the fuck up.

Christianity, has helped. They provide allot of good for some people. It's too early, I'll come back to this.

Christianity didn't do anything.

People did it.

A structured mythology is just

another tool.

It can be used to help or harm.

By the way, Santa Claus IS real.

I have seen the proof.

Well, I use to have to go to church when I was a child, and hated it, so I can say it is a relief not to have to deal with church/god in general. I'm agnostic in the sence that I havn't concreted my beliefs.

This could go on for ever, and I have neither the time, nor the energy for that... and it is supper time.

P.S. I don't take the bible, or anything written in it as fact. So using quotes from the bible doesn't prove your point to me.

quote:Originally posted by Islanders Arnt Crazy:

P.S. I don't take the bible, or anything written in it as fact. So using quotes from the bible doesn't prove your point to me.

Ok, so let's hear some of your proofs.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

I hope you are meaning reverence to religion.

I believe that the shortest complete sentence that uses the same word repeatedly is:

Buffalo buffalo, buffalo Buffalo buffalo.

So my question to you, and more importantly, hopefully an answer as well is; is this a complete sentence?:

Adam, Adam.

Now, personally, this is the funniest post I have ever fucking read. Thank you so much. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

And no, I was talking about reverence towards a god, which creates a personal religion of sorts...perhaps not as solid as one of the big seven, but still a religion.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:



I don't know. It's not like there is an organization for people who are deists, that'd sort of be counter productive. I haven't been to church in years. I don't pray. I believe in a God. I don't pretend to know how that god functions or what his intentions were/are. I'm a prime example, and I'm sure there are plenty more.

Also, calling someone God is not a religious device, it can be, but in this sense it isn't. Intention is key. </semantics>

Joking matters aside, if you call someone 'God', chances are that you show them reverence...I accept all arguments of semantics, they always prove useless and fun. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) I guess deists would be the one group of people with no religion associated with a higher being...but taking a note from Tyrant, that doesn't mean they don't have a personal god and a religion to follow suit.

Sooner or later, we all became what Tyrant wanted us to be...

http://www.totse.com/bbs/cool.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/cool.gif)

Heh...hey, you have an MSN, AIM, or Yahoo name? Or is that below the ubermensch? http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

Christianity has hurt the world more...

They killed people

They burned cities

They destroyed ideas

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

Joking matters aside, if you call someone 'God', chances are that you show them reverence...I accept all arguments of semantics, they always prove useless and fun. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) I guess deists would be the one group of people with no religion associated with a higher being...but taking a note from Tyrant, that doesn't mean they don't have a personal god and a religion to follow suit.



Well unless you feel like going out and talking to every deist in the world, I guess we'll never find out.