Doesn't the fact that man is not perfect prove that your (Christians of all denominations) god is imperfect?

The idea is that we made ourselves imperfect through sin. He gave us freewill, thereby the ability to be imperfect, 'cause without it, we'd be boring.

I find it irrational and illogical that anyone that has read so much as the the first few chapters of the bible beleive that he is almighty and all-knowing.

There's nothing happening that precludes his being all knowing, but there is a logical restriction on 'omnipotence.' For instance, God could not create an object too heavy for him to lift.

If you were perfect, had free will and yet you sinned, how could you be said to be perfect in the first place?

God doesn't sin. Either he is perfect with free will and thus never sins or he has no free will. If it's the first case then Adam and Eve being perfect with free will should have never sinned anyway, unless their perfection was a lesser one (which makes no sense to me).

Knowledge is the differentiating factor. Animals are sinless; in the begining humans were like animals, but knowledge made them capable of sin.

Why would knowledge cause someone to sin? I never said that the choice of evil is gone(like God has the ability to do evil or he has no free will in that he is always only able to do the right thing). I'm just saying that it would never be chosen anyway(well, that's like not having a choice but I digress).

Again, God has knowledge, perfection and free will. He doesn't sin. Either he has free will, knowledge, perfection and thus never sins, or he has no free will. If it's the first case then Adam and Even having free will, knowledge and perfection should still not sin anyway.

quote:Originally posted by Sephiroth:

...but there is a logical restriction on 'omnipotence.' For instance, God could not create an object too heavy for him to lift.

Inane

You so, should have kept that to yourself. That argument is made only by the feeble-minded. It's not even a true paradox and it is VERY easily refutable.

quote:Originally posted by R_I:

If you were perfect, had free will and yet you sinned, how could you be said to be perfect in the first place?

God doesn't sin. Either he is perfect with free will and thus never sins or he has no free will. If it's the first case then Adam and Eve being perfect with free will should have never sinned anyway, unless their perfection was a lesser one (which makes no sense to me).

You see, that's the problem.

The religion is based on the idea that God is ALL-KNOWING (omniscient). If this is so, why then would good punish both Adam and Eve, or anyone else for that matter?

If He knew all the while that they'd make the choices they'd make, He must have made them for that purpose. So why then punish them/us?

If He truly is omniscient then He is manevolent, vindictive, in His own rite, sadistic. This clashes with all other notions of His qualities, for instance, the notion that, 'God is Love'.

Or that He's 'omni-benevolent'. It clashes with the notion that He is an intelligent and/or 'perfect' being.

I'm a weak atheist and I know this stuff cold. I hold the view that Adam and Eve had no free will anyway.

I'm just trying to point out some stuff to someone else and I think that asking questions is a decent way to do so.

quote:Originally posted by R_I:

I'm a weak atheist and I know this stuff cold. I hold the view that Adam and Eve had no free will anyway.

I'm just trying to point out some stuff to someone else and I think that asking questions is a decent way to do so.

First off, you need to calm down, I was NOT attacking you in any way. As a matter of fact I AGREED with you.

Take a deep breath....., now lay off a little.

Grrrr.....

Nah, it's cool. I was just letting you know in my own way that I'm not an idiot.

quote:Originally posted by Metalligod:

You see, that's the problem.

The religion is based on the idea that God is ALL-KNOWING (omniscient). If this is so, why then would good punish both Adam and Eve, or anyone else for that matter?

If He knew all the while that they'd make the choices they'd make, He must have made them for that purpose. So why then punish them/us?

If He truly is omniscient then He is manevolent, vindictive, in His own rite, sadistic. This clashes with all other notions of His qualities, for instance, the notion that, 'God is Love'.

Or that He's 'omni-benevolent'. It clashes with the notion that He is an intelligent and/or 'perfect' being.



How did god punish the human race? If anything, we punished ourselves.

Hi Napoleon...who's your friend there? Oh yeah, the infamous strawman.

Am I wrong?

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

Am I wrong?

Didn't he drown the world, raze sodom and gomor, the seven plagues of egipt....

Did they deserve it?

Also, I don't take the bible literally, so none of that would really matter to me.

How does God punish us?

quote:Originally posted by Metalligod:

Inane

You so, should have kept that to yourself. That argument is made only by the feeble-minded. It's not even a true paradox and it is VERY easily refutable.

...but you chose to keep this so blatantly apparent refutation to yourself, because you think ad hominems are such an effective tactic in debate? http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

quote:Originally posted by R_I:

Why would knowledge cause someone to sin? I never said that the choice of evil is gone(like God has the ability to do evil or he has no free will in that he is always only able to do the right thing). I'm just saying that it would never be chosen anyway(well, that's like not having a choice but I digress).

Again, God has knowledge, perfection and free will. He doesn't sin. Either he has free will, knowledge, perfection and thus never sins, or he has no free will. If it's the first case then Adam and Even having free will, knowledge and perfection should still not sin anyway.

Because we have the knowledge of evil things. But what you guys arent getting is that it was sin to eat of the tree. Be it a knowledge tree or nay.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:



How did god punish the human race? If anything, we punished ourselves.

1]Why was god hogging the tree? If he is so powerful why does he need to assert authority over a material object?

2]If he was all knowing, then he would have known that eve was gonna get the fruit, if he knew this than why did he let her? He had no intention of preventing her from getting it.

3]The genesis story makes the devil seem like the savior. God was keeping A&E ignorant, possibly forever, with them being so dumb as to not recognize their lack of freedom. So by the devil convincing her to take the fruit, he assured we got the learning capacity that we have.

4] If god didnt intend for that shit to happen, if hes so powerful, he could have prevented it, undone it, whatever. If he is so above and beyond why is he behaving so human as to get "mad" at us?

again, I assert my agnosticism.

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

Because we have the knowledge of evil things.

Did Adam and Eve have the knowledge of evil things before they sinned? How does knowledge take away from perfection?



quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

But what you guys arent getting is that it was sin to eat of the tree. Be it a knowledge tree or nay.

And what you guys don't seem to get is that Adam and Eve would have never eaten from the tree in the first place if they were truly perfect.You don't sin when you are perfect even if you have free will and what not. Nothing short of imperfection would have to be in Adam and Eve for them to sin.

quote:Originally posted by R_I:

And what you guys don't seem to get is that Adam and Eve would have never eaten from the tree in the first place if they were truly perfect.You don't sin when you are perfect even if you have free will and what not. Nothing short of imperfection would have to be in Adam and Eve for them to sin.



Satan didnt tell Eve "Eat fruit or die" He used doubt and deception as leverage. No one said they were perfect beings either. We simply say that they were sinless. That desnt mean perfection. What about babies?

How can you say that you cant sin if you have free will and are perfect? If you will to sin, perfection or not, your going to do it.

Perfection is a relative state of free will. If i choose never to sin i am perfect. Not i am perfect therefore i do not sin. That is pride.



And dont you think the world would be a better place if we didnt know how to harm each other? And he doesnt assert athority over a damn tree! He putit there to test them. If they wanted to love God forever, they dont eat of that tree.

It is possible for a perfect being to create an imperfect being-and the whole point is that man was created imperfect so that he can have the challenge of making himself perfect over his lifetime.

N.B. i'm not religious, but this is the argument i've heard and it makes sense.

quote:Originally posted by Spic Power:

1]Why was god hogging the tree? If he is so powerful why does he need to assert authority over a material object?

First off, the tree is symbolic. It wasn't God's personal domain, it was there as a test. God put down his command. He told Adam and Eve to follow it. The tree is just there as an intermediary for God. It's just symbolic of humans violating God's will, and thusly they have to pay the punishment, as in they bring the punishment on to themselves.

quote:2]If he was all knowing, then he would have known that eve was gonna get the fruit, if he knew this than why did he let her? He had no intention of preventing her from getting it.

He still didn't make her do it. Her free will was not violated. She still acted of her own accord. It may not make sense now, but in the whole scheme of things it will make sense.



quote:3]The genesis story makes the devil seem like the savior. God was keeping A&E ignorant, possibly forever, with them being so dumb as to not recognize their lack of freedom. So by the devil convincing her to take the fruit, he assured we got the learning capacity that we have.

Knowledge is sin in a metaphorical sense, not in a literal sense. I don't take the bible at face value, so I don't really know enough to argue any of these points from a literal creationist's POV.

quote:4] If god didnt intend for that shit to happen, if hes so powerful, he could have prevented it, undone it, whatever. If he is so above and beyond why is he behaving so human as to get "mad" at us?

He could have, but why do you think he had to?

quote:Originally posted by Sephiroth:

...but you chose to keep this so blatantly apparent refutation to yourself, because you think ad hominems are such an effective tactic in debate? http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

IF Metalli has already posted this, I'll delete this shortly:

An omnipotent being would be able to set temporary limitations on his power, disabling all paradoxes related to omnipotence.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

Did they deserve it?

Also, I don't take the bible literally, so none of that would really matter to me.

How does God punish us?

Strawman again (deserving a punishment has nothing to do with whom deals it out). You said we punished ourselves...Bible says he ordered the Jews to slaughter several different tribes, he flooded the world, etc...just because you don't take it literally doesn't mean it fails to show God as the punisher...even metaphorically it is God who deals the punishment...unless you're far enough into the metaphors to think that God is simply the super-ego.

Even if he is our punisher(which I don't feel he is, but for the sake of arguementation), what does that have to do with anything at all?

What's the arguement about God being the punisher of humans hoping to accomplish?

Answer this though. Has God directly punished the Human race? Has he been vengeful towards us? The evidence points to no. There is no proof that he has ever punished us. All the pain and suffering in the world is a direct effect of our actions, not the actions of God(unless you care to prove otherwise).

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

Even if he is our punisher(which I don't feel he is, but for the sake of arguementation), what does that have to do with anything at all?

What's the arguement about God being the punisher of humans hoping to accomplish?

You replied to the argument in the first place... how about reading it? http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

quote:

Answer this though. Has God directly punished the Human race? Has he been vengeful towards us? The evidence points to no. There is no proof that he has ever punished us. All the pain and suffering in the world is a direct effect of our actions, not the actions of God(unless you care to prove otherwise).

What evidence points to no? The Bible surely points to yes. See the numerous examples Hexadecimal gave you.

If you argue that the Bible is open to interpretation ,then I can interpret it to mean that he has punished us, hence it doesn't help your case either way.

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

IF Metalli has already posted this, I'll delete this shortly:

An omnipotent being would be able to set temporary limitations on his power, disabling all paradoxes related to omnipotence.I didn't identify it as a paradox. I identified it as a natural limit on his omnipotence when working in this universe. God might in fact have to unmake the universe and its laws to be able to do something as I described. Assuming he would not under normal conditions do this places a limit on his powers.

If his powers have limits, then he wouldn't be omnipotent would he; an initial condition (i.e. attribute) that you give to him, when you ask "Can an omnipotent being...".

I can't really call him semi-omnipotent, because if he wanted to, he could likely undo the laws of the universe long enough to satisfy the situation I envisioned. That maintains his omnipotence, unless you really want to get into semantics here, while placing a restriction on what he can do without destroying the universe.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

What evidence points to no? The Bible surely points to yes. See the numerous examples Hexadecimal gave you.

If you argue that the Bible is open to interpretation ,then I can interpret it to mean that he has punished us, hence it doesn't help your case either way.

It appears we are at a point where it is impossible to go any further. For some reason you two are deciding to interpret the bible literally, while I'm not. Nothing more that can be argued, now it's just a different way of seeing things.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

Did they deserve it?

Also, I don't take the bible literally, so none of that would really matter to me.

How does God punish us?

If it doesn't matter to you, why then did you even join the conversation?

You're not making much sense, but anyway....

He punished man by first, drowning everyone, He cursed women with menstration, He kills innocent ppl He also tells others to kill innocent ppl and/or ppl in general.

I don't take the bible literally either, I don't even believe in the religion, however, this conversation is not about how anyone takes the bible itself, it's about its inconsistancies.

Furthermore, you don't make any sense when you say that we've punished ourselves.

I don't recall ever raping myself, or letting myself be raped. I don't recall drowning myself, creating evil, poisoning myself, plaguing myself, killing anyone's children or my own, etc. The list goes on and on.

Even if I could, I wouldn't cause the sky to rain fire or frogs down upon me.

quote:Originally posted by Sephiroth:

...but you chose to keep this so blatantly apparent refutation to yourself, because you think ad hominems are such an effective tactic in debate? http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

First off, God is not a physical being, not in the way that we are. Stones are matter, God is ethereal, we are NOT. If God wanted to, He could make a huge stone, make himself into a fleshly creature, and be thusly bound by physical laws.

Being as He is, He wouldn't be able to lift the rock/stone/whatever because He'd be bound by PHYSICAL limitations.

Likewise, He could make Himself stronger and thusly able to lift the rock/stone/whatever. Or He could turn Himself into a powerful and enormous beast, which would also enable Him to lift the rock.

See, it's inane and easily refutable. Seeing as how He is God and all, He could make himself fit both sides of the equation, both/either strong and/or weak.

quote:Originally posted by ararise:

It is possible for a perfect being to create an imperfect being-and the whole point is that man was created imperfect so that he can have the challenge of making himself perfect over his lifetime.

N.B. i'm not religious, but this is the argument i've heard and it makes sense.

If God created us for His purpose(s), how then are when imperfect, aren't we the way He wants us to be? If we aren't the way He wants us to be, then He's not perfect, because He obviously made a mistake.

And also, He's admitted to being a jealous being, isn't that an imperfect quality? Especially when He's jealous over something that He knows to be nonexistent?

If He is omniscient like His followers believe Him to be, then He knew we'd make the choices we'd make before we made them. So He obviously made us for the purpose of making the so-called 'choices' we'd/we've made; these choices which he had preconcieved knowldge of our making.

For Him to then punish us for these choices which we truly had no control over making, makes Him a coniving indivisual.

On the filp side; if we have the power to chance God's visions, then we have control over destiny and He's not truly omniscient.

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

An omnipotent being would be able to set temporary limitations on his power, disabling all paradoxes related to omnipotence.

Too bad I didn't see this before I made my response.

WTG Hex.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

You replied to the argument in the first place... how about reading it? http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

What evidence points to no? The Bible surely points to yes. See the numerous examples Hexadecimal gave you.

If you argue that the Bible is open to interpretation ,then I can interpret it to mean that he has punished us, hence it doesn't help your case either way.

Kudos

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

Satan didnt tell Eve "Eat fruit or die" He used doubt and deception as leverage. No one said they were perfect beings either. We simply say that they were sinless. That desnt mean perfection. What about babies?

How can you say that you cant sin if you have free will and are perfect? If you will to sin, perfection or not, your going to do it.

Perfection is a relative state of free will. If i choose never to sin i am perfect. Not i am perfect therefore i do not sin. That is pride.



And dont you think the world would be a better place if we didnt know how to harm each other? And he doesnt assert athority over a damn tree! He putit there to test them. If they wanted to love God forever, they dont eat of that tree.



I concede that Adam and Eve were only sinless in that they hadn?t sinned up to the point where they first sinned. Other than that, they were just gullible and greedy people that God made. The perfection that I was talking about though is a sort of nature that just flat out prevents one from sinning. God apparently has this, and is thus not able to sin or be in the presence of sin. It is obvious now that Adam and Eve had no such thing.

I won't go into how it wasn't even a proper test when God already knew the outcome.

EDIT: Tags.

[This message has been edited by R_I (edited 03-28-2005).]

quote:I won't go into how it wasn't even a proper test when God already knew the outcome.

DING, DING-FUCKING-DING

Thank you my brotha from anotha motha. I was hoping someone would say it so I didn't have to.

quote:Originally posted by Metalligod:



If it doesn't matter to you, why then did you even join the conversation?

You're not making much sense, but anyway....

He punished man by first, drowning everyone, He cursed women with menstration, He kills innocent ppl He also tells others to kill innocent ppl and/or ppl in general.

I don't take the bible literally either, I don't even believe in the religion, however, this conversation is not about how anyone takes the bible itself, it's about its inconsistancies.

Well determining what are inconsistancies would depend on how you take the bible.

quote:Furthermore, you don't make any sense when you say that we've punished ourselves.

I don't recall ever raping myself, or letting myself be raped. I don't recall drowning myself, creating evil, poisoning myself, plaguing myself, killing anyone's children or my own, etc. The list goes on and on.

Even if I could, I wouldn't cause the sky to rain fire or frogs down upon me.

We punished ourselves in the sense that we(human beings) are the cause of all the evils in the world, not God.

[This message has been edited by napoleon_complex (edited 03-29-2005).]

And who is it that caused us to cause all the evil in the world? Who made the first humans stupid shits who would ruin everything for themselves and for the rest of us?

Who supplied the starting causes that could only result in Adam and Eve messing up? God is the ultimate cause, and he is ultimately blamed (and praised, on the flip-side) for everything that has happened because they are by definition what he has wanted to happen.

God by definition not only knew what Adam and Eve would do given some starting causes to the universe but he was the one who supplied them.

Consider that:

1. God, being omnipotent, has the option of choosing an infinite number of potential universes to create.

2. God, being omniscient, foresees what the resulting timeline in any of those universes will be.

3. Each possible initial state of the universe will have a different resulting timeline.

4. One would only need to create the appropriate start state to watch it unfold into the desired end state.

5. There being an infinite number of alternative universes fine-tuned from the beginning to produce the desired result, any and all events in the created universe are by definition precisely the ones God wanted.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

It appears we are at a point where it is impossible to go any further. For some reason you two are deciding to interpret the bible literally, while I'm not. Nothing more that can be argued, now it's just a different way of seeing things.

"unless you're far enough into the metaphors to think that God is simply the super-ego."

Now, you may think of him as more than that...I was just giving my take on the literalist and the semi-literalist viewpoint. I don't even disagree with you really...I use strawmen all the time, I was just pointing one out on an issue I really have no care for discussing. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) Sorry.

Hmm...I do like the non-literal interpretation of your's Napoleon...personal responsibility for your own short-comings and such is far healthier than blaming/rewarding ethereal beings for your choices. We fuck our own shit up, and we also build our own shit up...is that a fair interpretation of your non-literalist view when it comes to consequences?

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

[b] Well determining what are inconsistancies would depend on how you take the bible.

Not true. There are several hundreds of things in the bible that are NOT stated in parables, and also, that are NOT metaphorical.

Murder, rape, and such are not metaphoricle things and can be taken the way they are. Your argument that what are and/or what are not inconsistancies in the bible are contingent on someones interpretation of it is simply a lame cop-out.

quote:We punished ourselves in the sense that we(human beings) are the cause of all the evils in the world, not God.

I don't mean to be rude, but, you're making yourself out to be a numbingly-dumb person.

The bible clearly states that GOD CREATED EVIL FOR A PURPOSE.

"I form the light, and create DARKNESS: I make peace, and CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do all these things."-Isaiah 45:7

"The Lord has made everything for his own ends, even the wicked for the evil day."-Proverbs 16:4

^Take it how you wish, it's all CLEARLY stated.

You don't seem to know much about the topic you've chosen to speak on. And for me or anyone else to continue to debate anything about the bible and/or the religion it represents with you, is simply purportless, and stupid of us.

With that said, I quit.

:edit:I always f*up my spelling: http://www.totse.com/bbs/mad.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/mad.gif)

[This message has been edited by Metalligod (edited 03-29-2005).]

I should also add this for those who come with the idiotic questions like the one Sephiroth proposed:

Asking or making the argument about how/if God can or cannot make a rock so heavy He can't lift it is stupid for the simple reason that it is HIGHLY OXYMORONIC.

What you are essentially saying is this: "Does God have the POWER to make Himself WEAK" or "Does God have the POWER to be WEAK"?

It's inane and not even remotely worth moot recognition.

[This message has been edited by Metalligod (edited 03-29-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

Hmm...I do like the non-literal interpretation of your's Napoleon...personal responsibility for your own short-comings and such is far healthier than blaming/rewarding ethereal beings for your choices. We fuck our own shit up, and we also build our own shit up...is that a fair interpretation of your non-literalist view when it comes to consequences?



Pretty much. I would consider god to be a creator and not much else until I reach the afterlife(if there is an afterlife).

I don't think god plays a direct role in our lives at all.

quote:Originally posted by Metalligod:

Not true. There are several hundreds of things in the bible that are NOT stated in parables, and also, that are NOT metaphorical.

Murder, rape, and such are not metaphoricle things and can be taken the way they are. Your argument that what are and/or what are not inconsistancies in the bible are contingent on someones interpretation of it is simply a lame cop-out.

Provide some examples then. And it isn't a cop-out, it's my interpretation.



quote:I don't mean to be rude, but, you're making yourself out to be a numbingly-dumb person.

I'm sorry I can't be as enlightened as you... http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

quote:The bible clearly states that GOD CREATED EVIL FOR A PURPOSE.

I never denied that. I denied that he punishes us.

quote:"I form the light, and create DARKNESS: I make peace, and CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do all these things."-Isaiah 45:7

"The Lord has made everything for his own ends, even the wicked for the evil day."-Proverbs 16:4

^Take it how you wish, it's all CLEARLY stated.[/quote]

I take it that God created everything good and evil, but he does not force neither the good nor the evil on anyone.

quote:You don't seem to know much about the topic you've chosen to speak on. And for me or anyone else to continue to debate anything about the bible and/or the religion it represents with you, is simply purportless, and stupid of us.

I feel the same way with you. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:With that said, I quit.

Good. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Napolean_Complex:

Provide some examples then. And it isn't a cop-out, it's my interpretation.

(In the thread, to which he is responding)-

quote:Originally posted by the Great Metalligod:

I form the light, and create DARKNESS: I make peace, and CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do all these things."-Isaiah 45:7

"The Lord has made everything for his own ends, even the wicked for the evil day."-Proverbs 16:4

Whatta sad, sad, little man... http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif) ***Ten thumbs WAAAY DOWN!!!***

More Napolean stuph:

quote:I'm sorry I can't be as enlightened as you...

Don't be sorry, just pick up the book and read it, it's quite simple, really. And on top of that, don't make merit less assertions, that way, I, nor anyone one else will have a sensible thing to say in regards to your 'pulling things out of your ass', as the saying goes.

A quote from me, to which Napolean responded:

Me- quote:The bible clearly states that GOD CREATED EVIL FOR A PURPOSE.

His response:

quote:I never denied that. I denied that he punishes us.

Now I would like to add, liar, to my description of this, Napolean, dude.-

quote:Originally posted by Napolean_Complex:

We punished ourselves in the sense that WE(human beings) ARE THE CAUSE OF ALL THE EVILS IN THE WORLD, NOT GOD.

He's a blatant and habitual liar; Case & Point-done and done.

Just to fore-dispute his possible claim that what he said does not prove my point:

Main Entry: [2]CAUSE

Function: transitive verb

Inflected Form(s): caused; caus·ing

Date: 14th century

1 : to serve as a cause or occasion of : MAKE

2 : to effect by command, authority, or force

I.E. he said that humans, NOT GOD, creates/created evil.



quote:I take it that God created everything good and evil, but he does not force neither the good nor the evil on anyone.

Surely you've heard of the tale of Job (Jobe)? *sigh*

COP-OUT

quote:I feel the same way with you

Ad Hominem

No PROOF that I've EVER done any such thing. What a lame, sad, thing he is, that Napolean_Dynamite(Complex).

-Napolean_Complex = God's joke...

[This message has been edited by Metalligod (edited 03-30-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Metalligod:

(In the thread, to which he is responding)-

I answer those later. And they still don't show that god punishes us.

quote:Don't be sorry, just pick up the book and read it, it's quite simple, really. And on top of that, don't make merit less assertions, that way, I, nor anyone one else will have a sensible thing to say in regards to your 'pulling things out of your ass', as the saying goes.

I guess I'll just never learn then...

I'll never be an elitist like you...

quote:Now I would like to add, liar, to my description of this, Napolean, dude.-

I guess I should go into more detail. I never denied that God isn't the originator of everything, both good and evil.

Even my quote says we are the originator, which means that we bring it upon ourselves, which further means that we punish ourselves.

quote:I.E. he said that humans, NOT GOD, creates/created evil.

I never said we created it, I said we bring it upon ourselves. We are the originator of our own pain and suffering(evil).

quote:

Surely you've heard of the tale of Job (Jobe)?

Surely you've read the post where is said I don't take the bible literally?

quote:Ad Hominem

No PROOF that I've EVER done any such thing. What a lame, sad, thing he is, that Napolean_Dynamite(Complex).

-Napolean_Complex = God's joke...

Metalligod = typical elitist etheist

Nothing more, nothing less, just a typical athiest who thinks he is always right. Closeminded to the opinions of others, always willing to display his/her stupidity on the subject of religion.

I'm also done discussing anything with you, because you instantly turn to personal attacks instead of actually debating the points.

Arguing with you is futile(even more futile than arguing on the internet), so I'm not even going to bother, because everytime it ends the same way, so I'll just save both of us the time.

nice lil debate, fun read, dont take it so personal you douche fairys.

I have a question, are the particles we and everything are made of immortal in some sense? yes i am still another pussy grasping for some symbolism to comfort my fear of not existing.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

I answer those later. And they still don't show that god punishes us.

?

quote:I guess I'll just never learn then...

I'll never be an elitist like you...



I find it very comical that any 1 would call me an elitist.

Thanx 4 the laugh. Maybe you'll never learn, or maybe you will, doesn't matter to me.

quote:Metalligod = typical elitist etheist

I'm not, and have never been...Typical.

and I think you mean, 'atheist'. If not, my fault.

quote:Nothing more, nothing less, just a typical athiest who thinks he is always right. Closeminded to the opinions of others, always willing to display his/her stupidity on the subject of religion.

[b]It appears that you can not only, NOT read books, but you're a poor reader of ppl as well. Saddening....

BTW-Not atheist or etheist (whatever that means).

quote:I'm also done discussing anything with you, because you instantly turn to personal attacks instead of actually debating the points.

Arguing with you is futile(even more futile than arguing on the internet), so I'm not even going to bother, because everytime it ends the same way, so I'll just save both of us the time.

I never said I was 'done discussing with you'. I meant only that I would no longer speak to you about Christianity or the bible, simply because you lack menial knowledge on the subject. I wasn't in any way making a personal assualt on your character.

What I was trying to do, however, was bring to your attention how you may look to others saying the things you say. Insulting you wasn't even the slightest bit on my mind.

When I made my character assessments of some of your qualities, I backed up what I said with examples. Criticism, yes; assault/insults, not at all.

Sorry if I offended you, wasn't my aim; at least not before my last post. Even then, it wasn't my goal it was, however, part of it though. My aim was/is to bring light to certain qualities that I see as OBVIOUS faults in your character/logic/reasoning.

Strangely I was trying to help you in pointing out that you are VERY prone to attacks in the future because your reasoning is flawed, and you sometimes come off as a hypocrit by discrediting your previous claims; and also by incessantly changing your interpretations of things.

I'm aggressive I know that, maybe I should be a bit more like Hex, and others, in getting my points across, but right now, I'm not, sorry. Love it or leave it... it's my flaw, at least I'm working on it....

s quote:Originally posted by MIND:

I have a question, are the particles we and everything are made of immortal in some sense? yes i am still another pussy grasping for some symbolism to comfort my fear of not existing.

As far as I know, energy is infinite. It will always be here and it always has been. The true debate is how it became the way it is.

Most ppl know that energy doesn't cease, it merely changes form. I'm a firm believer in that idea. If there is a god, I believe it made energy into a form which allowed it ot make physical things, 'physical' as we know it today, 'physical', as in what we are.

If you get into physics, you'll come to find out that some of the primary particles that make up even electrons and such defy physics itself. Some of them are described as having little or NO MASS.

[This message has been edited by Metalligod (edited 03-30-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by MIND:

nice lil debate, fun read, dont take it so personal you douche fairys.

It's not that I get offended, it's that whenever I debate with him, we get no where.

quote:Originally posted by Metalligod:

Whatta sad, sad, little man... ***Ten thumbs WAAAY DOWN!!!***

Sorry, i just cant resist... Do your ten thumbs make it easier or more difficult to masterbate?

Wow you really do beleive everything you read.



[This message has been edited by MIND (edited 03-31-2005).]

God in my opinion is not definable by our limited minds. Then again, we argue over weather God is good or evil. Good or evil by what? Our standard of good and evil? Or even better, God's standard? If you trully believe in a one and only God that is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent, can you define his actions as good or bad?

Maybe when arounguing weather he is just or currupt, we aren,t fully grasping what God is.

An exaple(not a good one really). When I think about God being infinetly powerfull and understanding that because of this, the universe was made by his words alone "...and God said let there be light...", I stumble upon this thought: If the world is round and God lied by saying "The world is flat" (in a deep movie announcer kinda voice) http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) wouldn't the world instanly be as flat as a pool table? Here's a curve ball: If the world is round and God said "the world has always been flat" wouldn't the world always have been flat? Therefore, can we conclude that God cannot lie? Ironic, God being omnipotent and all.

Don't get my views wrong here. In accordance with the bible I belive we've been dammed from the begining. The important and hard question is WHY? Why do we even exist for that matter?

Reading some of the comments here reminds me of the carpenter that always blamed the hammer for his awful craftsmanship. :P

Your thoughts on this please. Enlighten me. (maybe I just wanna play with fire)

[This message has been edited by deth213 (edited 04-01-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by deth213:

...Reading some of the comments here reminds me of the carpenter that always blamed the hammer for his awful craftsmanship. :P ...

You've obviously gotten your wires crossed, and therefore, you've misconstrued what has/is being said.

My crumb of enlightenment is this, READ, and fully understand what you've read before making ANY assertions...

quote:Originally posted by Metalligod:

Doesn't the fact that man is not perfect prove that your (Christians of all denominations) god is imperfect?

How ?

quote:Originally posted by Sephiroth:

There's nothing happening that precludes his being all knowing, but there is a logical restriction on 'omnipotence.' For instance, God could not create an object too heavy for him to lift.

And He wouldn't do something so humanly idiotic to "prove" anything to anyone.

That's not illogical; it's simply not worthy of His consideration.

I wish people would stop humanizing God.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 04-03-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Sephiroth:

Knowledge is the differentiating factor. Animals are sinless; in the begining humans were like animals, but knowledge made them capable of sin.

And animals are soul-less, so it doesn't matter if they are sinless or not. They kill, and fornicate, according to the laws of man, but those laws do not apply to them, since they are not created to be eternal beings.

Sin came only days after man's creation...we were never like animals.

God created us in HIS image.

Think about that.

quote:Originally posted by Metalligod:

First off, you need to calm down, I was NOT attacking you in any way. As a matter of fact I AGREED with you.

Take a deep breath....., now lay off a little.

That's kinda funny...you tellin' someone else to calm down.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

Sorry, i just cant resist... Do your ten thumbs make it easier or more difficult to masterbate?



Wow, I can't believe you said that...*LAUGHS*

But, for the poo's and giggle's of it, I shall say that I can't imagine how it would make it MORE difficult, or LESS pleasurable.

I think man would mightily appreciate a few more thumbs, in this regard...don't you ?

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

It's not that I get offended, it's that whenever I debate with him, we get no where.

Heh...you should try debating with Rust sometime.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

It's not that I get offended, it's that whenever I debate with him, we get no where.

And you're right. Metalligod does tend to get personal when backed into an intellectual corner.

quote:Originally posted by MIND:

I have a question, are the particles we and everything are made of immortal in some sense? yes i am still another pussy grasping for some symbolism to comfort my fear of not existing.

LOL

Well, either honesty or sarcasm are your strong suit !

I think all matter decays.

Only the soul is immortal.

Decays to what? Honesty. What soul? Can you explain to me where and what my observers soul is? What answer does god solve? How can you be arrogant enough to pretend you know what god is? Do you have some oustanding concept no other intelligable person is realizing? Can you claim anything with certainty? If you are so certain i dare you to post such here: http://www.astronomy.com/asy/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12904

I want you to win DS, i just know it wont happen.

Win what ?

That's not the point.

Whats the point then?

[This message has been edited by MIND (edited 04-04-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by MIND:

Decays to what? Honesty. What soul? Can you explain to me where and what my observers soul is? What answer does god solve? How can you be arrogant enough to pretend you know what god is? Do you have some oustanding concept no other intelligable person is realizing? Can you claim anything with certainty? If you are so certain i dare you to post such here: http://www.astronomy.com/asy/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12904

I don't understand God the way I should, and I can't understand Him the way He wants me to.

I am too stubborn and imperfect for that.

But there are logical ways to discern the meanings and purpose of the text in the Bible.

I know I have a soul, because I have experienced metaphysical things that lead to only one conclusion: there is a "self" outside of MYself...if that makes any sense.

I also know I have a soul because God says I do.

God doesn't solve anything. He is both the equation and the answer.

I am not the only Christian that understands the Bible in most aspects, by the way. Xtreem does a pretty good job of detailing it here as well. There are thousands of teachers in this country alone that understand it far better than I. Does that mean they think they are better than you ? No. It means that they are obligated to tell the truth, just as I am.

I will err...it's my nature. But I won't stop talking about God's word because I have fear of making a mistake.

If I keep Him in mind when I am talking about Him, He will guide me. I trust in that.

I will take a look at that site later, though I don't see the point. I have a hard enough time responding to 45 different people at a time here on Totse. *lol*

So, are you denying that molecules and the like have a "shelf life" ?

MIND - To see you in heaven, friend.

Agape.

Yea but where do they go after there "shelf life" is up? Im just looking for answers, im not into the whole debate thing because im not informed enough to make any conclusions.

*LOL*

None of us really are, truthfully.

Only God, the Designer of our universe, is truly qualified.

But since He doesn't work like that, Christians are left with the task.

I thought it was funny that no one has ever seen or handled a single molecule, so molecular science is one of those branches of study which deal with things invisible and imperceptible by our senses, and which cannot be subjected to direct experiment.

By this very definition, molecules don't exist, based on modern pagan interpretation of what is "real" and what is not.

Scientist's say that God does not exist because He is not observable, and cannot be tested scientifically.

Yet the same can be said of molecules, and they are considered a paramount cornerstone of science, without question.

Anyway, to answer you...

I need some time. I started researching it just now, and OH MY GOD.

There is just too much info to sort through.

I don't know what happens to molecules when they expire at this very moment.

I am reminded of why I didn't like chemistry much in shcool. *lol*



[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 04-04-2005).]

2 types of cell death:

* They are killed by injurious agents.

* They are induced to commit suicide.

Cells that are damaged by injury, such as by mechanical damage exposure to toxic chemicals undergo a characteristic series of changes:



They (and their organelles like mitochondria) swell (because the ability of the plasma membrane to control the passage of ions and water is disrupted).

The cell contents leak out, leading to

inflammation of surrounding tissues.

Cells that are induced to commit suicide:

* Shrink

* Develop bubble-like blebs on their surface

* Have the chromatin (DNA and protein) in their nucleus degraded

* have their mitochondria break down with the release of cytochrome c

*Break into small, membrane-wrapped, fragments



The phospholipid phosphatidylserine, which is normally hidden within the plasma membrane, is exposed on the surface.

This is bound by receptors on phagocytic cells like macrophages and dendritic cells which then engulf the cell fragments.

The phagocytic cells secrete cytokines that inhibit inflammation (e.g., IL-10 and TGF-â)

I recommend going through this easy to understand tutorial on it: http://fbspcu01.leeds.ac.uk/users/bmbatrl/atrl_topic.htm

So, that's cells...still working on molecules.

I wish that DS was capable of backing ANYONE, lead along, me, into an 'intellectual corner'.

I simply refuse to acknowledge ppl who make imbecilic assertions and ask inane/idiotic questions. Especially when they ask question that have been previously answered, sometimes seconds, hours, days or weeks ahead of them asking. Or things that even remedial folks can answer for themselves.

-Read and ye shall find the answer...