For those of you who aren't clear on what the word "covenant" means, like me, I've provided a definition from the Websters Dictionary:

Covenant: 1. To agree. Formal, solemn, and binging agreement. 2. A written agreement or promise under seal between two or more parties for the performance of some action. The common law action to recover damages for breach of such a contract. 3. To promise by a covenant. To enter into a covenant.

1. And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.

2. And the feat of you, and the dread of you, shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.

So, god says that all the animals on the earth are at the mercy of man. He already kind of said that to Adam, before, when he told Adam that he and Eve were the gaurdians of the animals.

3. Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

This passage is often commented on by avid pot smokers. It can't really be argued, but since it doesn't specify which green herb... I mean, they could just as easily be talking about rosemary or something.

4. But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

Does this imply that cannibalism is wrong or just consuming any blood?

5. And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast I require it.

6. Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

This implies that if you kill you will be killed. "He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword."

7. And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multply therein.

8. And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying.

9. And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you:

10. And with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark to every beast of the earth:

11. And I will establish my covenant with you; niether shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a glood; niether shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.

12. And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you, and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations.

in 9::11 and 9::12 god makes a promise, which is what the "covenant" between man a god is. It think this is a pretty important point to remember.

13. I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.

14. And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud.

15. And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you, and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.

16. And the bow shall be in the sloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covernant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.

A bow in the cloud is a reminder to god that he's not supposed to commit another flood? God needs a reminder?

17. And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.

18. And the sons of Noah, that went forth of the ark, were Shem, and Hem, and Japheth: and Ham is the father of Canaan.

19. These are the three sons of Noah: and of them was the whole earth overspread.

20. And Noah began to be an husband-man, and he planted a vineyard:

21. And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.

So, basically Noah is drunk and walking around naked in front of everybody too drunk to realize what he's doing.

22. And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.

And Ham is exploiting his fathers "wardrobe malfunction".

23. And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.

Shem and Japheth cover their father without looking to save his dignity while Ham exploited him.

24. And NOah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him:

25. And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.

26. And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

27. God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

28. And Noah lived after the flood three hundred and fifty years.

29. And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years: and he died.

So, Noah curses Ham and curses the city of Canaan to be no more than servants to his "good" son(s): Shem and Japheth.

Cheers,

Lost

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:

[B] Does this imply that cannibalism is wrong or just consuming any blood?



For meat to be kosher all the blood needs to be drained. That is how Jews take that part, not sure if that is where JWs get thier no tranfusion thing from.

quote:Originally posted by MasterPython:

Originally posted by LostCause:

[B] Does this imply that cannibalism is wrong or just consuming any blood?



For meat to be kosher all the blood needs to be drained. That is how Jews take that part, not sure if that is where JWs get thier no tranfusion thing from.

I know that because I was raised Jewish. My point was that this could be interpretted in different ways. I stated it in a question format so I could incite(sp) others opinions.

Cheers,

Lost

God: "Hmm, I can't use the flood anymore, aye? Ah well, plenty more ways to destroy all of mankind when I regret creation again."

EDIT: Oh, and the supposed only righteous man that God deems worthy of saving gets drunk off his ass right after the flood? What is this, a comedy?

[This message has been edited by R_I (edited 03-30-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by R_I:

God: "Hmm, I can't use the flood anymore, aye? Ah well, plenty more ways to destroy all of mankind when I regret creation again."

EDIT: Oh, and the supposed only righteous man that God deems worthy of saving gets drunk off his ass right after the flood? What is this, a comedy?



Your first point I agree with, but the second... I mean, after an episode like that I think I'd want a stiff drink myself. I mean, if this were all true I imagine he would've just killed himself or something.

Cheers,

Lost

Well, unless his vineyard was magical and gave him wine instantly, I'd say it was a while after the episode that he gave himself a drink.

Besides, drinking to the point of lying around naked? If that seems like acceptable behaviour to you then fine.

I don't think that Noah would've killed himself or anything. A couple of curses and blessings with a side of animal sacrifice would've been cool, I'm sure.

[This message has been edited by R_I (edited 03-30-2005).]

Well, I mean, that's a pretty big tragedy to live through. It would probably be like living through the apocolypse or something, that's why I say...

Or may be I'm just incredibly emotionally imbalanced.

Cheers,

Lost

quote:Originally posted by R_I:

God: "Hmm, I can't use the flood anymore, aye? Ah well, plenty more ways to destroy all of mankind when I regret creation again."

EDIT: Oh, and the supposed only righteous man that God deems worthy of saving gets drunk off his ass right after the flood? What is this, a comedy?



Dr Baughs research shows that under a high pressure atmosphere, vegetables/fruits do amazing things. Its entirely possible that the grape juice he had keptover from before he got in the boat was now able to ferment under lower pressure.

Err, he actually planted a vineyard first but whatever, this is not important.

Note: I did a good deal of research on this, as did a good friend of mine.

A man's "nakedness" in this context, supposedly refers to his wife. Depending upon your translation, you actually get the passages "and Noah left his tent, because he was drunk, and knew not where he was going." "And Ham beheld his father's nakedness" or "And Ham did know his father's nakedness." 'did know' implies that an action was taken to 'know' an object/person. Remember Mary's "For I am a virgin, and know not a man."?

Anyhow, a man's 'nakedness' in this context, as I said, supposedly meant his wife. So in a sense, we can rephrase things here in the most blunt way possible: Ham had sex his dad's wife. Which would mean he had sex with his mother.

Having sex with a man's wife sure seems like a lot more motive to curse someone to a life of servitude, than just plain seeing your pops naked, no?

Plus, us men like being naked. I'm naked right now.



-Uncle Rusty

Interesting.

Leviticus 18:8

8: The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.

Hmm, although how would Noah know straight away after waking up that it was Ham who did something and that Ham actually slept with his wife? Cumstains? Did they have DNA testing then to confirm that it was Ham who did it? Would Ham have confessed to such a thing to his brothers?

[This message has been edited by R_I (edited 03-31-2005).]

to long didn't read.

quote:Originally posted by R_I:

Interesting.

Leviticus 18:8

8: The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.

Hmm, although how would Noah know straight away after waking up that it was Ham who did something and that Ham actually slept with his wife? Cumstains? Did they have DNA testing then to confirm that it was Ham who did it? Would Ham have confessed to such a thing to his brothers?



Very possibly his other sons told him, they aparently saw it as improper.

For that matter his wife could have. If you just sobered up and your sun had just screwed your wife, I think you would know somehow. That would be a pretty strange atmosphere. I dont think it would take more than two or three glances to confirm what happened for me.

Anyhow, like I said, it's all up for debate, note I said "supposedly", and was never definitive. There are very few places you can be definitive with the bible.

Happy studies,



-Uncle Rusty

quote:Originally posted by Rusticus:

Note: I did a good deal of research on this, as did a good friend of mine.

A man's "nakedness" in this context, supposedly refers to his wife. Depending upon your translation, you actually get the passages "and Noah left his tent, because he was drunk, and knew not where he was going." "And Ham beheld his father's nakedness" or "And Ham did know his father's nakedness." 'did know' implies that an action was taken to 'know' an object/person. Remember Mary's "For I am a virgin, and know not a man."?

Anyhow, a man's 'nakedness' in this context, as I said, supposedly meant his wife. So in a sense, we can rephrase things here in the most blunt way possible: Ham had sex his dad's wife. Which would mean he had sex with his mother.

Having sex with a man's wife sure seems like a lot more motive to curse someone to a life of servitude, than just plain seeing your pops naked, no?

Plus, us men like being naked. I'm naked right now.



-Uncle Rusty

Not true. Your cmparing Hebrew connotation and Greek connotation, and connotation from different authors. Cream for instance can have several meanings, even perverse. When someone asks for cream with their coffee you dont automatically masturbate into their mug do you?

You have to figure out how the structure of the sentence relates the connotation of theword. That of which you did a piss-poor job at. Nakedness means nakedness. When have you heard someone say i like watching nakedness movies and mean that they liked gay sex when you are well aware they are perfectly straight?

To know something doesnt mean you fucked it, dipshit. I "know" that your an illogical, ignorant fool, but does that mean that i fucked you? According to your definition, then yes. Yes i did...

What you easilly fail to realize that he went and told his brothers. Obviously he was laughing his ass off and making fun of him. His brothers then cover him with a blanket.

God cursed him because he made light of his fathers nakedness.

Most of your wild fallacies can easilly be corrected if you could get your definitions and connotation correct and quit selectively reading what you like.

What about the creatures that aren't made of flesh? God talks like a broken robot.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

What about the creatures that aren't made of flesh? God talks like a broken robot.

And why does he talk in the third person if he's the one writing this?

Cheers,

Lost