Not that I care, ya know, I just wanna know exactly what I'll need to repent for on my death bed in order to get into heaven.

Any law of the land made by man should not be broken, unless it goes against God's commandements.

Which means, if drugs are illegal in your country, and you do them, you are breaking the law which is a sin.

God doesn't want His people to be getting into trouble with lawmakers...for an example of this, look at Christ's life.

Oh, and you most likely won't know the day or the hour of your death, so it is kind of silly to say that you will repent of your sins on your deathbed.

You may be hit by a car tomorrow, and it will be too late for you to make that choice.

Also, God tells us in the Bible that for those who justify living in the flesh until the last moments of their life, there is no reward in heaven.

Just a thought.

Its not in the Ten commandments. But now-a-days every thing is a Fucking sin.

Ten Commandments = just a guideline.

Romans 13:1-7 - Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

Titus 3:1 - Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good...

1 Peter 2:13 - Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, 14or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. 15For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men.

The authorities that exist have been established by God.

Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men.

That was before that evil democracy

stuff, where people think they have

the authority, not god-ordained rulers.

So, shouldn't fundamental christians be

fighting to build a fascist theocracy...

oh wait. http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

[This message has been edited by Viraljimmy (edited 04-04-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Ten Commandments = just a guideline.

Romans 13:1-7 - Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

Titus 3:1 - Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good...

1 Peter 2:13 - Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, 14or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. 15For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men.



See, Digital, isn't it amazing you can quote these passages and not wonder at their stupidity and contradiction with Jesus? So, suddenly the Roman Emperor is assigned by God? These are the very passages that helped the Roman Empire take advantage of christianity and corrupt it with political authority. Something that has led to how the catholic church was formed. I think you should be troubled about how reliable Peter or Paul is, when one has denied his Lord thrice on the night of His arrest and the other being a former roman terrorist. Personally, I find their words disgusting.

Yes it is....

1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober.

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1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

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1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

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1Ti 3:11 Even so [must their] wives [be] grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.

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Tts 1:8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;

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Tts 2:2 That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.

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Tts 2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,

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Tts 2:6 Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.

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1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

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1Pe 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

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1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

yeah, God wants you to take care of yourself, and to always be thoughtful. Something drug use works against. He also wants you to be filled with the Holy Spirit. I had a Sunday School teacher tell me once that it was ok to smoke the occasional joint...But that was at a wierd hick church...

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Ten Commandments = just a guideline.

Romans 13:1-7 - Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

Titus 3:1 - Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good...

1 Peter 2:13 - Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, 14or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. 15For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men.

[b]WHAT THE FUCK{/b] And Bush talks to god every night... btw jesus was anti-authoritarian.

Mark 1:21-28 > The people were astonished at his doctrine. He taught as one who had authority and not as the scribes.

Surely Anne Frank was frowned upon by God for evading the Nazis. Not that she could ever go to heaven anyway because she's Jewish.

quote:Originally posted by elfstone:



See, Digital, isn't it amazing you can quote these passages and not wonder at their stupidity and contradiction with Jesus? So, suddenly the Roman Emperor is assigned by God? These are the very passages that helped the Roman Empire take advantage of christianity and corrupt it with political authority. Something that has led to how the catholic church was formed. I think you should be troubled about how reliable Peter or Paul is, when one has denied his Lord thrice on the night of His arrest and the other being a former roman terrorist. Personally, I find their words disgusting.

You are simply taking them out of context.

God is saying that no one comes into power without His knowledge, and essentially, His permission.

You are once again insinuating that to be a Christian is to be perfect, which Peter certainly wasn't. Which none of us are.

Peter denying the Lord 3 times has nothing to do with his impact on the Christian faith.

Are you even trying to understand it, or are you purposely twisting the meaning to support your anti-Christian rhetoric ?

NightVision, that made no sense. Care to expound a little ?

Romans 13:1-7 - Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

Yea so all the Christian Russians that were murdered by stalin should have just submitted themselves to Stalinisum/Athieisum?

Mark 1:21-28 > The people were astonished at his doctrine. He taught as one who had authority and not as the scribes.

Jesus had authority but not was not "as the scribes" or upper class.

And we should "submit" to bush beacuse he was appointed by god?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

You are simply taking them out of context.

God is saying that no one comes into power without His knowledge, and essentially, His permission.

You are once again insinuating that to be a Christian is to be perfect, which Peter certainly wasn't. Which none of us are.

Peter denying the Lord 3 times has nothing to do with his impact on the Christian faith.

Are you even trying to understand it, or are you purposely twisting the meaning to support your anti-Christian rhetoric ?



Our difference Digital is that I try to make sense of what I am reading BEFORE I form my opinion. You already have an opinion and it's simply impossible for you to be critical about your own beliefs.

What I am saying is that to be a Christian means to be happy, because a relation with God brings happiness. Peter and Paul's writings contribute to the misery, the prejudice, the racism and everything else is wrong with today's church of christianity. While Jesus was talking about man and woman becoming ONE FLESH in a perfect union, Peter and Paul twist this perfect condition by promoting SUBMITION of woman to man. I don't know how you, being a woman, find this. Paul even goes out to suggest that it is "good for man to never touch a woman"! How's that for blasphemy against God's creation?? I am definitely not taking anything out of context here. These are the "holy" scriptures that were torturing women of every christian society from that day up to recent decades.

About submition to human authority, Jesus gives knowledge again, but Peter, as the illiterate fisherman that he was, failed to understand. Read Matthew 17.24-27. Jesus only paid the tax to not "scandalize them". He clearly does not agree with kings collecting taxes from their children. Peter of course is hilariously wrong with his answer there, but it's the answer Jesus wanted. Even so, I'd like to ask you to find ONE passage where Jesus backs Peter up on submition to mortal authorities.

I didn't deny Peter's impact, I'm just saying that it is a negative impact. In the end, it is Jesus who instructs us "Search and you will find", while Peter forbids it (Peter B' 1.21).

One last thing: Peter was with Jesus for how long? Everything He taught, Peter was there. But in the last hour, it's Peter who uses violence against the roman soldier, even though Jesus made it clear that His arrest HAD TO HAPPEN. [Interestingly, only John reveals his identity. John who was given to Mary as replacement for her Son, and who was given the Apocalypse.] I don't see how you can trust Peter's words, when, of all people, he seems to fail to grasp Jesus's teachings and whose love for Jesus was questioned (John 21.15-18).

quote:Originally posted by NightVision:

Romans 13:1-7 - Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

Yea so all the Christian Russians that were murdered by stalin should have just submitted themselves to Stalinisum/Athieisum?

Mark 1:21-28 > The people were astonished at his doctrine. He taught as one who had authority and not as the scribes.

Jesus had authority but not was not "as the scribes" or upper class.

And we should "submit" to bush beacuse he was appointed by god?

Alrighty, thank you. *smiles*

All the Christian Russians that were murdered should be seen as Christ: did he fight his oppressors, accusers, and murderers ? Did he threaten them, or even lash out at them ? In fact, didn't he stop his disciple from fighting the Roman soldiers who came to retrieve Jesus to be judged, even though he had every right to do so ?

You are applying human characteristics to God.

If a person is a Christian, he must live like one. The more we are persecuted, the happier we should be. We find peace in it, because we know we are in God's hands. Those who suffer for HIM gain the kingdom of Heaven !

Regarding Jesus teaching of his own authority, that scripture is showing that the people recognized that his authority came from God, and not of man. Jesus was nothing like the scribes, since he was not hypocritical, and imperfect. That is what is being illustrated in that text.

We should respect Bush and his position of authority, UNLESS he demands that we go against the commandements of God.

God knows Bush's heart, and Bush didn't get to the position he is in without God's knowledge.

Be careful to trust in the Lord your God, for He is ultimately all-knowing and righteous in His judgement.

ELFSTONE

The difference between you and I is that you think I am stupid, and I don't agree.

I also don't think YOU are stupid, so let's just drop the hostility, shall we ?

It would be nice to have an intelligent, meaningful, productive conversation with you for once. Is that cool with you ?

Now, on to your post.

I am ABSOLUTELY critical of my beliefs ! How could I NOT be ? I believe in a book that has very little scientific evidence supporting it, and in a God that doesn't exist, according to the 5 senses. That is not only shaky ground to stand on, it provides an environment in which ridicule is a part of my daily existence.

If that is not cause enough to be critical of why I believe what I do, I don't know what is !!

And you act like I have been a Christian all my life. I was a pagan, just like everyone else. I came to my beliefs BECAUSE I was critical, not in spite of it.

You ask me to show where Jesus supports the ideology of Peter that we ought to submit ourselves to governing authorities, and I must remind you that I already have. But I will post them again for you, in case you missed them the first time:

Romans 13:1-7 - Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

Titus 3:1 - Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good...

1 Peter 2:13 - Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, 14or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. 15For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men.

Now, you say, "These scriptures were written by Paul and Peter, not Jesus !", however you are not taking into consideration the fact that GOD WROTE THE BIBLE, THROUGH MEN !!

Not one word of scripture is without divine inspiration.

And since the Bible tells us that Jesus and God are one entity, it is reasonable to conclude that Jesus agreed with Peter and Paul, as inspired by God.

Also, Peter and Paul dedicated their lives to the teachings and ways of Christ. Were they perfect ? No. But they certainly knew what they were talking about !

The Bible specifically tells us, time and again, that we are NOT to break any laws of man, unless they disagree with God's doctrine.

Why is that ? Because we are to remain blameless and justified in the sight of man.

It makes no sense for us to go around breaking laws, including not paying our taxes, both physically, and spiritually.

Christians have enough problems with the world without having to deal with judicial punishment.

Jesus said, "Give to Caesars what is Caesars." in response to a question asked by a Pharisee, which was presented in an effort to trip him up on the issue of paying taxes.

Jesus' infinite wisdom is exhibited here, since he knew better than anyone else that coins and paper mean nothing to God, but mean everything to man.

He paid his tax, because it was a trivial and insignificant thing to battle over. It matters nothing to a person's salvation.

Paul does not suggest that a "good man" will never touch a woman...he says that if it is possible to do so, a man should choose to remain unmarried, when striving to live a life of ministry and discipleship.

Marriage, as we can all attest to, only complicates a persons life. It also serves to make you ONE with another person, which means that your decisions are not just your own anymore. What you choose to do with your life will effect the people in your family, which can present a stumbling block for those who seek to serve in the ministry.

Family can also be an emotional distraction from your spiritual relationship with God. If you can avoid that, you should really try to.

But Paul goes on to say that if you can't resist, it isn't a bad thing, either.

That is all Paul meant by that.

The "submission" that wives are to have for their husbands is not parallel to the tenet that wives and husbands become ONE FLESH after they are married.

I could explain this "submission" if you'd like, but for now I will just say that it is simply not the kind you are thinking of.

I don't know where you get your information about John being Mary's son, but you are incorrect.

"When Jesus saw His mother there, and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He said to His mother, "Dear woman, here is your son," and to the disciple, "Here is your mother." From that time on, this disciple took her into his home." (John 19:26-27 NIV)

If that is the verse that has led you to believe that John was Jesus' biological brother, you have interpretted it incorrectly.

Jesus was telling John to take care of his mother, as he would his own. Part of Jewish custom demands this be done.

Anyway, Peter was an imperfect human being. No human has ever been perfect, except for Jesus. So, I don't see how you can take away the divinity of Peter's teaching, since it was ordained and inspired by God.

You think God didn't know Peter was imperfect ? You think He didn't realize that Peter's reaction to the soldiers would serve as an example to future generations ?

You rape God of His power over humanity when you say things like that.

If there was anything else I didn't address, I apologize. I am exhausted.

Sleepy time.

God bless.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 04-05-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by asthesunsets:

Surely Anne Frank was frowned upon by God for evading the Nazis. Not that she could ever go to heaven anyway because she's Jewish.

The Bible states something about a probable cause type of thing. Something like, follow the laws of your governing nation, but you should not obey them if they disagree with your code of ethics.

So, if the government was to pass a law that, say made you kill yourself if you happened to be a Roman Catholic you'd be allowed to disobey these rules.

I already posted the verses.

*sighs*

Anyone who takes the bibel literally is a fucking moron in my humble opinion, I mean god killed a man for not impregnating his brothers widow, how damn sick is that.

You should define your own believe of religion and stop listening to all the dumbass priests/referents(sp?) etc.

[This message has been edited by Fza (edited 04-06-2005).]

This is why I'm a Discordian.

quote:Originally posted by Fza:

Anyone who takes the bibel literally is a fucking moron in my humble opinion, I mean god killed a man for not impregnating his brothers widow, how damn sick is that.

You should define your own believe of religion and stop listening to all the dumbass priests/referents(sp?) etc.



Yes that is fuxx0red. But in some afircan cultures the brother would get the other brothers wives if he died. Mabey it was the same in the middle east?

Heres some more controdictions.



1 Cor.12:31

"Covet earnestly the best gifts."

1 Cor.14:39

"Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues."



Ex.20:17

"Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's."

Dt.5:21

"Neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any thing that is thy neighbour's."

Rom.13:9

"Thou shalt not covet."

The cathecism of the catholic church says it is.

well, not directly, but it does say " your body is the temple of God, " so smoking or doing drugs would pollute it and ruin it.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

ELFSTONE

The difference between you and I is that you think I am stupid, and I don't agree.

I also don't think YOU are stupid, so let's just drop the hostility, shall we ?

It would be nice to have an intelligent, meaningful, productive conversation with you for once. Is that cool with you ?

Sure, though I doubt it's gonna be productive for either of us. Maybe for someone reading this. Btw, I probably come off more hostile than I intend. It usually happens with pompous jerks like you-know-who.

quote:

Now, you say, "These scriptures were written by Paul and Peter, not Jesus !", however you are not taking into consideration the fact that GOD WROTE THE BIBLE, THROUGH MEN !!

Not one word of scripture is without divine inspiration.

And since the Bible tells us that Jesus and God are one entity, it is reasonable to conclude that Jesus agreed with Peter and Paul, as inspired by God.

You actually consider the above to be "critical"? It's quite the opposite of that. Try to avoid things like this if you want to avoid the feeling that people consider you stupid.

Even if you are right, you cannot presume to know God's ends. It could very well be that as He allows evil in the world, the bible itself may not be free of it. As He set the stage for the primordial sin to happen without any responsibility of His own, the bible can be part of such a stage. God still has no responsibility for any evil ensues the bible, as it is only Jesus that links Him to it. Of course, if you consider disgusting and inhumane books like Leviticus and Deuteronomion to be healthy educational material, then I would have to declare you insane and end this discussion. But let's focus on the New Testament which is the actual basis of christianity.

quote:

Also, Peter and Paul dedicated their lives to the teachings and ways of Christ. Were they perfect ? No. But they certainly knew what they were talking about !

The Bible specifically tells us, time and again, that we are NOT to break any laws of man, unless they disagree with God's doctrine.

Why is that ? Because we are to remain blameless and justified in the sight of man.

It makes no sense for us to go around breaking laws, including not paying our taxes, both physically, and spiritually.

Christians have enough problems with the world without having to deal with judicial punishment.

Jesus said, "Give to Caesars what is Caesars." in response to a question asked by a Pharisee, which was presented in an effort to trip him up on the issue of paying taxes.

Jesus' infinite wisdom is exhibited here, since he knew better than anyone else that coins and paper mean nothing to God, but mean everything to man.

He paid his tax, because it was a trivial and insignificant thing to battle over. It matters nothing to a person's salvation.



You are right about Jesus's wisdom but not because of such a mundane matter as money. Jesus here gives knowledge about AUTHORITY and whose authority really matters.

You would not believe how many of man's laws you obey that are against God's will. If Peter and Paul (consciously or not, doesn't matter much) have managed to twist Jesus's teachings (and I don't see you offering ONE piece of evidence against what I presented to support this), then you can imagine what's happening in human legislation. You would think matters like intellectual property, marriage, the types of financial capitals are matters of the state and not religion but if you have actually read the bible you'd know that Jesus has expressed His views for all those subjects. And our human rules go against Him!

quote:

Paul does not suggest that a "good man" will never touch a woman...he says that if it is possible to do so, a man should choose to remain unmarried, when striving to live a life of ministry and discipleship.

Marriage, as we can all attest to, only complicates a persons life. It also serves to make you ONE with another person, which means that your decisions are not just your own anymore. What you choose to do with your life will effect the people in your family, which can present a stumbling block for those who seek to serve in the ministry.

Family can also be an emotional distraction from your spiritual relationship with God. If you can avoid that, you should really try to.

But Paul goes on to say that if you can't resist, it isn't a bad thing, either.

That is all Paul meant by that.

The "submission" that wives are to have for their husbands is not parallel to the tenet that wives and husbands become ONE FLESH after they are married.



Jesus speaks of men and women becoming ONE FLESH and not wives and husbands. Marriage does not enter into it at all. In fact, you should notice that Jesus refers to the time of creation, a time BEFORE any kind of marriage was in effect. Marriage does not make you ONE with another person, Love does. And that which God=Love has joined together, man can't separate. Christianity's tendency to equate the things of man with the divine, as Peter does who likens man's authority to God's, has led to much suffering.

Family can indeed be a distraction when one has grand goals. This is the only reason Jesus did not seek to have one and it is a sacrifice that should not be neglected because of the ultimate sacrifice, the crucifiction. Sacrificing family is not to be an example for us, unless we aspire to help the world as Jesus did. A scientist striving to find a cure for cancer, focusing all his life's efforts to this task, he is the "eunuch" for the Kingdom of Heaven. Priests and ministers are useless parasites made eunuchs by men. Ministry and discipleship? How are those useful when the Word of God has spread to the whole planet? The parents are unable to teach their children while a priest can? Those are poor excuses to abstain from sexual activities. In effect, they sacrifice what they don't have to pretend a closeness with God they will never experience as a man with a family does.

quote:

I could explain this "submission" if you'd like, but for now I will just say that it is simply not the kind you are thinking of.



Your interpretation, whatever it is, is of no consequence. When those passages are given to illiterate masses by priests that do not allow interpretations (see Peter B' 1.21 again) will lead to miserable conditions for women. I believe the theocratic Middle Ages are proof enough. The human law-makers, that are appointed by God according to Peter, had to collide with the church to give rights to women.

quote:

I don't know where you get your information about John being Mary's son, but you are incorrect.

"When Jesus saw His mother there, and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He said to His mother, "Dear woman, here is your son," and to the disciple, "Here is your mother." From that time on, this disciple took her into his home." (John 19:26-27 NIV)

If that is the verse that has led you to believe that John was Jesus' biological brother, you have interpretted it incorrectly.

Jesus was telling John to take care of his mother, as he would his own. Part of Jewish custom demands this be done.



You misunderstood me, I implied nothing about biological relations. I pointed out that Jesus appointed John, and not Peter, to take His place next to His mother. And it is only John that reveals the identity of the disciple who attacked the Roman soldier. I am implying a preference.

quote:

Anyway, Peter was an imperfect human being. No human has ever been perfect, except for Jesus. So, I don't see how you can take away the divinity of Peter's teaching, since it was ordained and inspired by God.

You think God didn't know Peter was imperfect ? You think He didn't realize that Peter's reaction to the soldiers would serve as an example to future generations ?

You rape God of His power over humanity when you say things like that.



No, it's quite the opposite actually. I point out the absolute control God has over humanity. I never said that Peter and Paul's perversions of the Word of God were a sign of weakness for God. It's the exact opposite. God directs the course of history exactly where He wants and that is the salvation of mankind. As His Son was sacrificed for this cause, mankind has to sacrifice as well. If people fall to evil because of the bible, God is not to blame. If you choose to attribute divine qualities to Peter's words without even attempting to compare them with Jesus who should be your ONLY standard, it's not God's fault if you turn out to be a misogynist racist who judges everyone with a balk in your eye.

The fact that Peter was crucified on an inverse cross, shows that God's vengeance was just, as well as symbolic.

FOR THOSE who take the bible seriously, you should know that the church of rome edited and changed the bible to suit their agenda, especially the new testament and the teachings of Jesus. They really didn't like what Jesus was teaching, so they just changed it! (they also removed the absolute most important things that Jesus taught to his disciples)

You see Jesus wanted to empower people with knowledge, but the church and the empire couldn't let that happen. however christianity was already very popular, so they had to change it into something that would allow them to maintain total control of the masses. they did this by burning and destroying most of the christian doctrines, and driving out the true followers of Jesus, forcing people to submit to the church of rome's own version of christianity.

what does this mean to you? well, it means that IF the bible was ever the true word of God, it surely is NOT now because of the church of rome! in fact today's bible should be considered blasphemous and corrupt.

And by this you mean to say that not only is God a liar...

II Timothy 3:16 - "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."

...but incapable of controlling how His word is used.

God is GOD !

I am not saying this in defense of Catholics, because I have my own problems with their beliefs, but I am saying this because you are in err about the infallability of God's word.

I don't follow you. So you're saying if I write something and call it "scripture" it automatically becomes God's word? Maybe I misunderstood you.

p3n3d.